I moved this post from the MSU string as it seems better to start a new string on this topic.
I was not able to watch the MSU game -- sometimes earning a living overshadows what I really want to do. But I did go to ESPN.com as soon as I was free and saw this nugget:
The Crusaders (26-8) were no match for Michigan State in their first NCAA tourney in nine years, just as they weren't as a first-round loser in 2000 to the eventual champion Spartans. Valpo had enough size to match up, but didn't have enough strength.
I also saw where most posters over the course of the season referred to B1G teams in terms of their muscle. I guess that was proven out today. So lesson one is hit the weights more.
I also saw references to the "strength/muscle" of schedule in some post-mortems. Gotta agree there too. Despite having an aversion to anything DUM, I think Senior did a good job of scheduling tough OOC opponents. That's probably why, late in the season, they hung with Temple. Of course it did not help them in the HL Tourney (I would like to think that our kids would have handled that differently). We did not lose by more than 13 points to a seeded UNM, a seeded STLU, and a seeded MSU. But we did lose to an Oakland and a Nebraska and we 'played nice' with Chicago State, IPFW, IPUI, and PURDUE CALUMET!?!?. To be respected you have to go against respected D-I schools (maybe not the top 10, but certainly the top 30) and leave the 175+ RPI schools in our wake - forever. That's lesson #2.
FWIW My Game Plan for VU BB in 2013-2014 and going forward includes 4 major building blocks:
(1) Put those skinny frosh recruits on weights starting TODAY (as well as our experienced guys - I want to see Capo and Vashil each with six-packs and 18+" arms). With strength and power comes increased confidence.
(2) Schedule-wise in 2013-14 we're good with UNM, Murray and STLU, but upgrade the rest of the schedule even more (but don't go nuts -- no Dukes, MSUs, UNCs, KUs, UCLAs -- at least not right away). Trial by fire is the way to prepare for the post season. And isn't it all about the post-season? But we need to schedule solid RPI teams who will come to the ARC as well, which is what Bryce did this year with the UNM, Murray and STLU.
(3) Develop a killer mentality. Be a fighter, but play composed. Steps #1 and #2 will help a great deal in developing a hardened, confident squad that will not be timid in settings like the NCAA. You can be Christian, but you can still crush an opponent. After the contest is over you can help him up, pray together, and embrace him as a brother.
(4) Finally, I love our kids. My game plan includes "create a family." And they've already got that down pat. I hope they never lose that quality.
Thank you seniors; it was so good ta know ya.
But now it's time to look ahead to next season. Any other ideas?
Personally, next season I think the wild card is Rossi. If he is 100 percent, he could be the best shooter in the horizon league.
62, you should know that these kids areon the weights ALL the time. Bob Brooks is a very good trainer and the high school kids? Same thing. Nobody take the season off. Basketball is a year round thing. Guys like Capo are just big. He didn't come in weighing 200 out of high school and by training jumped to 250.
MSU wasn't bigger than us man for man but just in the two bigs where they were huge and will be bigger than everyone else. You can't teach height or make a 165 6'5" kid into a 240 6'5" kid.
We will be OK size wise next year but skill wise, is a very different question. Can Vashil progress to be a meaningful contributor? We know what we'll have with Bobby and the word is that Adekoya is a beast on the boards, but only 6'6". What will David Chadwick add? He is listed at 6'9" 220, and from the team picture does look taller than Kevin. Beyond those? We still have one slot available so perhaps Bryce can land another big body. It will be interesting.
given the nature of the Horizon, I doubt we'll be focused on having three bigs on the floor at any time. More likely we will be built in much the same way as we were this last year. A Broekhoff type (Alex Peters), A Kevin type (Bobby) and three guards. Take your pick...
Quote from: truth219 on March 22, 2013, 08:47:25 AMhe could be the best shooter in the horizon league.
The Rotnei of VU--true.
We'd still have a solid rotation
without any of the fresh frosh [or the next nickname i come up with!]:
1 Carter
2 Dority
3 Rossi
4 Vashil
5 Capobianco
with Coleman to spot at 1 & 2 and Chadwick to spot at 3 & 4? Tell me at LEAST a third the HL wouldn't prefer that 7-man over what they have returning if they could. Milwaukee would in a hot second. Loyola loses two of their top three scorers; so does YSU. UIC loses all 3. Detroit loses 3 of their top 4 if Jr goes pro. It's not like everyone else doesn't graduate people.
AND you add the freshmen.
And THEN don't forget we still have a scholarship available.
LaPorte AveApostle....you are way off and will leave it at that....we will have a few freshmen crack the starting line up!.........However, our concern is to keep Bryce Drew.......He should be receiving a salary that would put him in the top 2 or 3 highest paid coaches in the Horizon League.....believe he is in the bottom of the middle third if that. Correct me if I am wrong.
I definitely think that we will still be a top 4 team, and it will just depend on how much our returning players improve over the summer, and how our FR contribute to get a higher seed. I will take a 6'6" post player if he plays anything like Larry Owens did for ORU. I believe Larry is 6'6"-6'7", and he was an absolute load to deal with throughout each game.
Vashil has shown some progress in a few games, but only had so much time to play this season with KVW/Bobby. He has had time to watch what KVW and Bobby do in order to gain a favorable position, and you can see that he was definitely trying to do the same things. He definitely needs to add some muscle in order to have the same effect as them though.
Bryce should be the top 1-2 in the HL as far as pay...
Agree, I would bet that early on we will see 2 maybe 3 starting freshmen early on and probably 2 starters once Carter is ready to go.
Standing behind Adekoya and Lexus the other day, these are big guys. Lexus had to be 6'1'' or 6'2'' I would have guessed Jubril to be 6'8''. I'm excited that we should have a bit more athleticism/leaping ability/strength in this new group then we've had in the past few years.
Quote from: vu72 on March 22, 2013, 09:32:56 AM
these kids are on the weights ALL the time. Bob Brooks is a very good trainer and the high school kids? Same thing. Nobody takes the season off. Basketball is a year round thing.
I realize that. My point is that there are all sorts of weight programs. These programs can be adjusted to derive specific results. If strength and power down low has to be improved, then I'm sure Brooks and the staff will make that adjustment. For the HS kids, they are coming from various programs with varying degrees and quality of training regimens. I'm also hopeful that Brooks quickly designs Valpo programs for these guys and gets them out to them (if he hasn't already) so that they can begin doing things the Valpo way even before setting foot on campus.
Despite having a very good nucleus returning, in my mind it's still kind of a clean slate for next year. I noted some comments of how other teams are losing star quality players and that VU has a shot at doing pretty good again in the HL. Are we at a point now in the program where we can truly say we are building for repeated NCAA appearances? I think we are. So I also think, that now is the time to enhance the existing 2013-14 schedule, further reduce opponents who don't test us or whose RPIs don't add to our resume, and alter what many had said at various points in the season was a lack of a killer instinct by challenging the team with a grueling OOC schedule. The wins might not total 26 like this year but the ability to play tough, composed basketball at an even higher level night after night can harden a team for post season play. Didn't see any feedback on that yet.
With that in mind are there any rumors about upgrades/additions to the schedule yet? Certainly with the fluid conference realignment issues, there will be schedule gaps all over the place for A-10, MVC, (old) Big East and (new) Big East schools.
Quote from: tommydee on March 22, 2013, 10:19:16 AMLaPorte AveApostle....you are way off and will leave it at that....we will have a few freshmen crack the starting line up!.........
Um...I actually said just that if you'd read carefully. I'm saying even if they weren't coming in, which CLEARLY THEY ARE, we'd still have a pretty good HL team, and then when you add the freshmen...we're even better
sigh...reading comprehension/complex thought...
(http://philly.barstoolsports.com/files/2011/09/sad_bill_cosby.gif)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 22, 2013, 09:43:47 AM4 Vashil
Vashil seems like a fantastic guy, and I still think he has considerable potential as a basketball player.
But, it's hard for me to picture him starting. Seems like his ball handling (not even dribbling, just catching, rebounding, etc.) needs to take a step up first.
Taking a quick look at the Horizon League next year, I think we can agree Wright State and Green Bay will be the top 2 teams in the league. UIC and Milwaukee will probably finish at the bottom. The remaining teams (Valpo, Detroit, Loyola, Youngstown, Cleveland State) are a toss up for 3rd to 7th.
The freshmen are going to be key next year. We can't afford to have any major "busts". Hopefully we can get lucky and have 1 or 2 surprises (we can always dream about the next Gordon Hayward). Also, is Coleman going to be a Crusader next year? I could see him leaving the program after his lack of playing time at the end of the season. Finally, I think we need to use our last scholarship on a big man. I'm not sure if we want to go the transfer/JUCO route but I just can't see Vashil becoming a major contributor the next few years.
2013-14 Schedule Questions
There are 15 OOC slots on the schedule. Where are we headed?
Done Deals
@ Home
UNM,
St. Louis
Murray
What's the Deal?
Loyola Marymount -- they owe us one, right?
EKU - We go there in 13-14?
Nebraska -- was that a one and done or are we going back to Lincoln?
And.....?
NIU?
Georgia Southern?
Kent State?
Missouri State?
Bethune-Cookman?
Then.....?
Oakland
IUPUI
IPFW
Fugetabout... please
Purdue Calumet
I believe that LMU is contractually obligated to return the game next season, as they did not this season. There is the option of doing it anytime in the next 2 seasons, I believe.
Georgia Southern, NIU, Kent State, and Missouri State should be finishing up prior commitments, and BCU was part of a tournament that we don't have to return. The only SL team I would want to see is Oakland.
Quote from: mj on March 22, 2013, 03:59:40 PM
Taking a quick look at the Horizon League next year, I think we can agree Wright State and Green Bay will be the top 2 teams in the league. UIC and Milwaukee will probably finish at the bottom. The remaining teams (Valpo, Detroit, Loyola, Youngstown, Cleveland State) are a toss up for 3rd to 7th.
The freshmen are going to be key next year. We can't afford to have any major "busts". Hopefully we can get lucky and have 1 or 2 surprises (we can always dream about the next Gordon Hayward). Also, is Coleman going to be a Crusader next year? I could see him leaving the program after his lack of playing time at the end of the season. Finally, I think we need to use our last scholarship on a big man. I'm not sure if we want to go the transfer/JUCO route but I just can't see Vashil becoming a major contributor the next few years.
I wasn't going to ask about transfers, but they do seem to happen at a pretty high rate. I would think all the returnees will be in pretty good shape to earn PT next year, so I'd be really surprised to see anyone leave.
I would imagine that Rossi and Coleman are coming back, as they have already transferred once. I am not sure of any rules specific to this area, but I doubt that they would want to sit out a year before playing again.
OK, I watched some video of the new recruits to try to cheer up a bit. I had not seen much live footage of Peters. I think he will start every game for us next year. Very strong and agile for his height and has a very solid outside shot. He's a lock.
I find it harder to evaluate guards. But Carter and Williams definitely have a stronger "presence" driving to the hoop than any of this year's guards besides Kenney. I haven't seen any good video of Jubril, but Peters likes him and has played with him.
Peters looks like the "leader of the pack" in both ability and leadership traits.
Quote from: agibson on March 22, 2013, 02:59:07 PMVashil seems like a fantastic guy, and I still think he has considerable potential as a basketball player.
But, it's hard for me to picture him starting.
Was it really that opaque? All I was doing was imagining the lineup without freshmen. Clearly, that will change everything.
Let's imagine Chadwick there, then, if it makes you feel better. The point is still the same.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 22, 2013, 08:20:15 PMWas it really that opaque? All I was doing was imagining the lineup without freshmen. Clearly, that will change everything.
Let's imagine Chadwick there, then, if it makes you feel better. The point is still the same.
Well, you also called that line-up solid. I wasn't so sure.
I have no idea what to expect from Chadwick - it'll be an interesting first couple of games next season, for sure!
Quote from: agibson on March 22, 2013, 10:28:20 PMWell, you also called that line-up solid.
"Solid" as in "dude, them's some pretty solid bassetball playas right there"
not
"Forsooth, let us solidly carve this lineup into stone henceforth!"
Nickname for next year's frosh -- Young Guns II. Then I can use a sharpie on the old shirt and write in the 2.
Quote from: valpo84 on March 22, 2013, 11:41:48 PMYoung Guns II
That's certainly better than anything I've come up with, and so maybe since it's offseason we should dedicate an entire thread to picking a nickname for these guys.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 22, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
Quote from: agibson on March 22, 2013, 10:28:20 PMWell, you also called that line-up solid.
"Solid" as in "dude, them's some pretty solid bassetball playas right there"
not
"Forsooth, let us solidly carve this lineup into stone henceforth!"
Oh, I know what you meant by solid. I was just saying, I'm not so sure Vashil's solid (yet).
Quote from: agibson on March 23, 2013, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 22, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
Quote from: agibson on March 22, 2013, 10:28:20 PMWell, you also called that line-up solid.
"Solid" as in "dude, them's some pretty solid bassetball playas right there"
not
"Forsooth, let us solidly carve this lineup into stone henceforth!"
Oh, I know what you meant by solid. I was just saying, I'm not so sure Vashil's solid (yet).
I cringe when you make broad statements like "solid." There is no way to tell whether Vashil, Chadwick and, depending on his health, Rossi will be "solid." There are way too many question marks about Valpo next year to say whether they will be in the top 4 or more towards the middle of the Horizon. I do think they are better than the bottom of the HL. I'm not saying that Valpo won't finish in 1st or 2nd place. I'm just saying there are question marks with the players the fans are depending on to be very good to pronounce them "solid" at this time of the year.
Quote from: bbtds on March 23, 2013, 05:10:59 PM
i wasn't pronouncing it solid at this exact moment...there would be no point in it since there are no games for 7-plus months. i'm pronouncing them to be a solid team come November, even without the freshmen. i'm confident in Vashil making a leap.
Can't teach athleticism. You can teach how to handle it, and I think he's growing leaps and bounds, no pun intended.
Although the team this year did really well,I feel that with all of the talent and experience we had,we should have been able to win a couple games in the tournament
Tired of losing to the bcs schools
If we really want to take our program to the next level,like Butler has,we need to win a few of these games
Unfortunately it will now be a couple years for us to have a shot at getting in the tourney again,and even then I am not sure we will be as good as this team was
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 23, 2013, 08:59:31 PMi'm pronouncing them to be a solid team come November, even without the freshmen. i'm confident in Vashil making a leap.
As was said in the previous post, there is nothing guaranteeing this team will be really good next year. As usual there are some fans looking to the possibilities of these players being real good or great but there is nothing "solid" that says come November that Valpo will for sure be with the top teams in the Horizon League. It's going to be a wait and see situation just like about every year. Yes, Keith Carter, Alex Rossi, Alec Peters, Jubril Adekoya, Vashil Fernandez and Clay Yeo have great potential but I can't call them "solid." What have you seen live or on TV on Homer Drew Court that makes you know for sure that these players will be "solid?"The only player I would call "solid" is Bobby Capobianco.
Yes, there is much to be hopeful for but there is a huge difference between "hopeful" and a player being "solid." Anyone, who goes back a few years, remember having a lot of great hope for Kenny Harris and Jimmy Miles? How did those situations turn out?
Kenny Harris would have been a great player for us in his last 2 seasons if he didn't have that incident. He worked his a$$ off every day to get into shape, which is something I saw personally in the mornings, as he would run with our team at 5-6 am every few days. I don't think it is fair to lump him in with anyone else, as he was definitely making large improvements in his game...
Quote from: valpotx on March 24, 2013, 12:29:00 PM
Kenny Harris would have been a great player for us in his last 2 seasons if he didn't have that incident. He worked his a$$ off every day to get into shape, which is something I saw personally in the mornings, as he would run with our team at 5-6 am every few days. I don't think it is fair to lump him in with anyone else, as he was definitely making large improvements in his game...
Anything can happen to anyone of the players for Valpo next season. A medical condition (which is what ultimately was the cause of Kenny Harris' incident) has already happened to Alex Rossi. The medical staff happen to catch it before anything dramatic happened to Rossi. Hopefully his medical condition will not effect his career any further at Valpo. That could happen to any of these so called "solid" players that will play for Valpo next year. That is just a fact of life.
I wasn't trying to say that Kenny Harris was a bad person or anything. But it was proven that his career at Valpo did not turn out like many of the fans thought it would. The same goes for Jimmy Miles, no matter what the reasons. I won't think any less of Alex Rossi if it is a medical condition that keeps him from working really hard and becoming a great scorer at Valpo, which he definitely has the potential to do. For Rossi he better be working hard on his defense too.
I wasn't necessarily speaking to Kenny being a good person (which he was/is), but his overall talent and performance when he was playing. You can't compare Jimmie Miles and Kenny. Jimmie did not live up to his hype/potential in regards to performance, but Kenny DID. The ONLY thing that prevented Kenny from not living up to his hype is a medical condition. That is much different than saying he wasn't 'solid' when he was playing
Since you keep picking at my choice of adjective, I'll keep (solidly) pointing out that apparently you keep reading things into what I said.
I did not say that they would be one of the best teams in the HL--though I do think so. What I did say, should you care to read it, is that the seven holdovers from this year's roster would constitute a core solid enough to be preferred by at least a third of the HL ... which is 3 teams.
Call me crazy, but I think we'll do better than 7th with that group, which is a known quantity (and no one, certainly not me, declared any of the freshmen to be "solid"). How much better than 7th will depend on the freshmen.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on March 24, 2013, 08:52:48 PM
Since you keep picking at my choice of adjective, I'll keep (solidly) pointing out that apparently you keep reading things into what I said.
I did not say that they would be one of the best teams in the HL--though I do think so. What I did say, should you care to read it, is that the seven holdovers from this year's roster would constitute a core solid enough to be preferred by at least a third of the HL ... which is 3 teams.
Call me crazy, but I think we'll do better than 7th with that group, which is a known quantity (and no one, certainly not me, declared any of the freshmen to be "solid"). How much better than 7th will depend on the freshmen.
Okay, so "solid" is 7th or better in the Horizon League. If I understand your meanings and use of the vocabulary it's easier for me. I would say we then agree because I did say that next years players would range from middle to top 1 or 2 in the Horizon League.
I am a new member of the Valpofanzone, but a life long VU fan. I will likely not be a regular participant.
I think overall this season was a great one, coach and players did a FANtastic job all around. It was fun to follow the team, inspite of few TV games. CONGRATULATIONS!!!
But, for years I've been very disappointed with the administration's handling of the basketball program(not to mention football). Valpo's participation in extremely weak conferences comprised of schools with little or nothing in common with VU has not elevated our standing in the eyes of most of the nation. This translates to better recruiting potential, more television exposure(revenues) and the opportunity to play a stronger schedule, which in the long run would build a better BRAND.
One needs to look no further than our arch rival, or former arch rival, Butler University. Sure for years they kicked our butts 4 out of 5 games, but recently we've held our own and can actually claim a mini 3-game win streak! But, we're still stuck in a go nowhere conference, playing 3rd tier teams and hoping to win our year end tourney to get the lone bid to the dance. How was Butler able to move on up from the lowly Horizon League (not to mention the Summit League), to the A10 and now the Big East, where they will be playing nationally ranked teams on a huge national network(FOX). with a potential for 5,6,7 bids to the Dance.
The interesting thing is that Valpo would have more in common with the New Big East schools from an enrollment and geographic standpoint, than we currently do with the schools we currently play, not to mention the academic standards. Were we afraid of the Catholics!
Why has Butler advanced so rapidly? Because their athletic department and administration recogized the path to future success wasn't playing the likes of Ill-Chic. or UMGB. They've blown right by Valpo, 3 losses in a row aside....Did Valpo even get a call to join the Big East, or the A-10 for that matter? On one hand I hope we did, on the other hand I hope we didn't 'cause we're still stuck in the Horizon.
Wake up VALPO!!!
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 07:42:19 AM
I am a new member of the Valpofanzone, but a life long VU fan. I will likely not be a regular participant.
I think overall this season was a great one, coach and players did a FANtastic job all around. It was fun to follow the team, inspite of few TV games. CONGRATULATIONS!!!
But, for years I've been very disappointed with the administration's handling of the basketball program(not to mention football). Valpo's participation in extremely weak conferences comprised of schools with little or nothing in common with VU has not elevated our standing in the eyes of most of the nation. This translates to better recruiting potential, more television exposure(revenues) and the opportunity to play a stronger schedule, which in the long run would build a better BRAND.
One needs to look no further than our arch rival, or former arch rival, Butler University. Sure for years they kicked our butts 4 out of 5 games, but recently we've held our own and can actually claim a mini 3-game win streak! But, we're still stuck in a go nowhere conference, playing 3rd tier teams and hoping to win our year end tourney to get the lone bid to the dance. How was Butler able to move on up from the lowly Horizon League (not to mention the Summit League), to the A10 and now the Big East, where they will be playing nationally ranked teams on a huge national network(FOX). with a potential for 5,6,7 bids to the Dance.
The interesting thing is that Valpo would have more in common with the New Big East schools from an enrollment and geographic standpoint, than we currently do with the schools we currently play, not to mention the academic standards. Were we afraid of the Catholics!
Why has Butler advanced so rapidly? Because their athletic department and administration recogized the path to future success wasn't playing the likes of Ill-Chic. or UMGB. They've blown right by Valpo, 3 losses in a row aside....Did Valpo even get a call to join the Big East, or the A-10 for that matter? On one hand I hope we did, on the other hand I hope we didn't 'cause we're still stuck in the Horizon.
Wake up VALPO!!!
What actions do you specifically see the athletic department taking to get us in a better conference than the Horizon League?
I certainly am not versed in the ways of university athletics, so can't chart a path to the mount. Certainly the Drew legacy is worth something at the national level. This is a golden arrow in Valpo's quiver. Let's utilize it!
However, the job of an athletic director,akin to a CEO in the real world, is to be on the lookout for mergers, acquisitions and services that would enhance the BRAND. Being a member of the Horizon league is not enhancing the Valpo BRAND.
As a start, I'd have lunch with Barry Collier, Butler AD, at St Elmos and ask him how they did it. Why did they get the calls? How did they broker a deal. Today, being a Division 1 AD is more than about ordering uniforms and making sure the mascot has a big head!
They must be businessmen first and foremost. I'm not sure who our AD is and where he came from, but I hope he has atleast an MBA...
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure advancing to two straight national championship games slightly helped Butler's case.
In checking further, I see that Mr. LaBarbera has a good pedigree and an MBA from DePaul. That's a start. So he should know how to move us up and out. Perhaps his hands are tied from above?[sic]
Isn't DePaul in the New Big East
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 07:42:19 AM
I am a new member of the Valpofanzone, but a life long VU fan. I will likely not be a regular participant.
I think overall this season was a great one, coach and players did a FANtastic job all around. It was fun to follow the team, inspite of few TV games. CONGRATULATIONS!!!
But, for years I've been very disappointed with the administration's handling of the basketball program(not to mention football). Valpo's participation in extremely weak conferences comprised of schools with little or nothing in common with VU has not elevated our standing in the eyes of most of the nation. This translates to better recruiting potential, more television exposure(revenues) and the opportunity to play a stronger schedule, which in the long run would build a better BRAND.
One needs to look no further than our arch rival, or former arch rival, Butler University. Sure for years they kicked our butts 4 out of 5 games, but recently we've held our own and can actually claim a mini 3-game win streak! But, we're still stuck in a go nowhere conference, playing 3rd tier teams and hoping to win our year end tourney to get the lone bid to the dance. How was Butler able to move on up from the lowly Horizon League (not to mention the Summit League), to the A10 and now the Big East, where they will be playing nationally ranked teams on a huge national network(FOX). with a potential for 5,6,7 bids to the Dance.
The interesting thing is that Valpo would have more in common with the New Big East schools from an enrollment and geographic standpoint, than we currently do with the schools we currently play, not to mention the academic standards. Were we afraid of the Catholics!
Why has Butler advanced so rapidly? Because their athletic department and administration recogized the path to future success wasn't playing the likes of Ill-Chic. or UMGB. They've blown right by Valpo, 3 losses in a row aside....Did Valpo even get a call to join the Big East, or the A-10 for that matter? On one hand I hope we did, on the other hand I hope we didn't 'cause we're still stuck in the Horizon.
Wake up VALPO!!!
Welcome! Now you can take some of the blame for some of my dumb posts! A few clarifications: Did you know that you can watch all of Valpo's games on the internet? Don't have to wait for a TV game. Just go to Horizonleague.com or go to the Valpo athletics site and click on the tv icon on the schedule.
Second, the Horizon League is not "an extremely weak conference". They finished this year ranked 12th out of 31, the same ranking they had the previous year when that other school from Indy was still in the conference. As for the schools in our conferences having " little or nothing in common with VU", that may be the case in basketball, but certainly not in our football conference which includes schools like Marist, Davidson, Butler, Drake, Campbell, and other highly regarded academics, small and private institutions.
Finally, the win streak against Butler isn't three, it's four. The only reason they were asked to move up is their championship game record as well as a long history of success in the NCAA tourneys. It's all about basketball success and something we need to try to follow, no question.
Butler's rise to the Big East, in my opinion has three causes. In rank order, they are: (1) success on the basketball court - does Butler get an invite to join the A10 if they didn't go to consecutive finals?, (2) Good fortune....they were in the right place at the right time. They benefited hugely from the "Catholic revlot" in the Big East, but they in no way caused the revolt, (3) willingness to spend money to upgrade facilities and retain Stevens necessary for higher conferences. This third cause does play a role, but I do not agree with any other posters that any strategy to move up in conferences should start with spending (note that the road is littered with schools that failed with a "build it and they will come strategy"). Everyone is going to look at the leadership and planning at Butler that has caused their rise, but I would argue that while some of that is true there is a significant amount of idiosyncratic events that have aided Butler's rise.
Another point that needs to be made is what level of conference Valpo should be at. I could see Valpo playing in the MVC if the opportunity came, but the A10 may be a bit too much of a reach and the Big East makes no sense. Valpo does not have the available fan base compared to a school like Butler. Furthermore, right now Valpo needs to make NCAA tournaments and begin winning games. Moving to a much tougher conference is not going to bring NCAA tournament births more than working to win the Horizon each year. The Horizon is not a low tier conference by any definition - it is really a mid-tier conference.
Here is what I think that Valpo should do in the near term:
-Pay Bryce. He is going to make the difference over the next 3-5 years. His energy, motivation, and improving coaching ability will keep Valpo achieving 20 win seasons.
-Have a strong non-conference schedule each year that includes good home games in November and December.
-Expect to win. Even with the huge player turnover, everyone should expect this team to contend next year. Winning this year would be an excellent foundation for tournament success in 2015 or 2016.
I'm curious. What facility improvements did Butler do to enhance its success? They are just now raising money to improve Hinkle. They sure did pay Stevens--a million a year. Not to diminish Stevens in any way, but Butler's success was tied to getting very lucky with Hayward and Matt Howard (who was highly regarded) but not to the level he achieved as well as that other guard who is now also in the NBA. They were very good this year and made the dance because of the play of Rotnei Clark. How they do next year with he and Smith will be very interesting.
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
I certainly am not versed in the ways of university athletics, so can't chart a path to the mount. Certainly the Drew legacy is worth something at the national level. This is a golden arrow in Valpo's quiver. Let's utilize it!
However, the job of an athletic director,akin to a CEO in the real world, is to be on the lookout for mergers, acquisitions and services that would enhance the BRAND. Being a member of the Horizon league is not enhancing the Valpo BRAND.
As a start, I'd have lunch with Barry Collier, Butler AD, at St Elmos and ask him how they did it. Why did they get the calls? How did they broker a deal. Today, being a Division 1 AD is more than about ordering uniforms and making sure the mascot has a big head!
They must be businessmen first and foremost. I'm not sure who our AD is and where he came from, but I hope he has atleast an MBA...
Well then there now. Lookie here...another gimmick has graced our presence.
Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2013, 09:15:09 AMFinally, the win streak against Butler isn't three, it's four. The only reason they were asked to move up is their championship game record as well as a long history of success in the NCAA tourneys. It's all about basketball success and something we need to try to follow, no question.
VU72: I guess I must have missed one win along the way. My apologies. The webcasts just don't do it for me, plus the revenue to build a program isn't through the web...yet ...Did we get any money from allstate for the astronaut ad? That was a highlight after Thursday's disappointment.
Is "lookie here" a colloquial phrase?
Quote from: bbtds on March 25, 2013, 05:10:54 AMOkay, so "solid" is 7th or better in the Horizon League. If I understand your meanings and use of the vocabulary it's easier for me. I would say we then agree because I did say that next years players would range from middle to top 1 or 2 in the Horizon League.
Well,
better than 7th, or middle-tier, 4-6. And I think the freshmen will vault us up to the top third, but that's more hope than anything. I envision a Wright State-type year in terms of surprises, but without having been picked last to start with.
I'm in the process of a huge analysis of returning players in the HL, but it'll have to wait until after Holy Week. Plus Loyola keeps hemorrhaging players and changing my output :)
Quote from: crusaderjoe on March 25, 2013, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
I certainly am not versed in the ways of university athletics, so can't chart a path to the mount. Certainly the Drew legacy is worth something at the national level. This is a golden arrow in Valpo's quiver. Let's utilize it!
However, the job of an athletic director,akin to a CEO in the real world, is to be on the lookout for mergers, acquisitions and services that would enhance the BRAND. Being a member of the Horizon league is not enhancing the Valpo BRAND.
As a start, I'd have lunch with Barry Collier, Butler AD, at St Elmos and ask him how they did it. Why did they get the calls? How did they broker a deal. Today, being a Division 1 AD is more than about ordering uniforms and making sure the mascot has a big head!
They must be businessmen first and foremost. I'm not sure who our AD is and where he came from, but I hope he has atleast an MBA...
Well then there now. Lookie here...another gimmick has graced our presence.
Yep, DID alert...
Quote from: wh on March 25, 2013, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on March 25, 2013, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
I certainly am not versed in the ways of university athletics, so can't chart a path to the mount. Certainly the Drew legacy is worth something at the national level. This is a golden arrow in Valpo's quiver. Let's utilize it!
However, the job of an athletic director,akin to a CEO in the real world, is to be on the lookout for mergers, acquisitions and services that would enhance the BRAND. Being a member of the Horizon league is not enhancing the Valpo BRAND.
As a start, I'd have lunch with Barry Collier, Butler AD, at St Elmos and ask him how they did it. Why did they get the calls? How did they broker a deal. Today, being a Division 1 AD is more than about ordering uniforms and making sure the mascot has a big head!
They must be businessmen first and foremost. I'm not sure who our AD is and where he came from, but I hope he has atleast an MBA...
[/b]
Well then there now. Lookie here...another gimmick has graced our presence.
Yep, DID alert...
:troll: :troll: :troll:
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 09:53:29 AMallstate
The fact you didn't even know who was the sponsor of the ad tells me no, they did not receive any money off the commercial.
Quote from: VU72too on March 25, 2013, 08:23:21 AM
I certainly am not versed in the ways of university athletics, so can't chart a path to the mount. Certainly the Drew legacy is worth something at the national level. This is a golden arrow in Valpo's quiver. Let's utilize it!
However, the job of an athletic director,akin to a CEO in the real world, is to be on the lookout for mergers, acquisitions and services that would enhance the BRAND. Being a member of the Horizon league is not enhancing the Valpo BRAND.
As a start, I'd have lunch with Barry Collier, Butler AD, at St Elmos and ask him how they did it. Why did they get the calls? How did they broker a deal. Today, being a Division 1 AD is more than about ordering uniforms and making sure the mascot has a big head!
They must be businessmen first and foremost. I'm not sure who our AD is and where he came from, but I hope he has atleast an MBA...
Welcome to the board! I am not sure how long you have been following VU sports, your knowledge of the athletic history seems a little weak, but I think it would be good for some of the posters here to give a little history as to what has happened in the sports department since the late 90's. I will try and get things started (historyman and others please jump in). We probably did miss the boat following the sweet sixteen year and could have used that to move to a higher profile conference, I will agree with you there. Most of that situation had to do with the administration and the relationship between our AD Dr. William Steinbrecher and his son Dr. Jon Steinbrecher who was commissioner of the old Mid-Continent Conference. For more history on this and some of the passion involved with the move to the Horizon League go to http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=2700&page=1 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=2700&page=1) and http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=509 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=509) even more http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=3505 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=3505). The Horizon League is a much higher profile conference than the Mid-Con/Summit League. We moved from a conference that traditionally had a RPI in the low 20's range to a conference that was about 10 slots higher, a huge improvement. We went from a conference that was spread out over thousands of miles to a conference where most trips are within 250 miles or less from Valpo, another huge improvement for our student athletes. I think most of the posters here would agree that, with the possible exception of football, we have done a better job of hiring and or retaining higher quality coaches for almost all of our sports. I am not sure what stations you have available to watch but close to half of our games were on major television networks such as Fox Sports, ESPN Family of Networks or CBS with most of the rest being on the Horizon League Network on the internet. 6 of our last 8 games alone were on ESPN or CBS. The Horizon League "Brand" is much better than what we had previously and lest you forget Butler, whom you site in your posts, was in the MCC/Horizon from 1979-2012. Should Mark LaBarbera be on the lookout for new ways to market the Valpo Brand, certainly. Mark has a reputation for being proactive and has changed the face of VU sports significantly since he took this position. With the recent appearances of the bowling, softball, baseball and men's basketball in the NCAA tournaments the Valpo athletic brand is in better shape than anytime in the last 10-12 years. The recent advertising campaigns by Unilever AXE Apollo and Lowes have put VU in front of millions of people during the NCAA tournament. With continued athletic success, alumni backing and administrative support for facilities upgrades, VU should be poised to move in the proper direction.
Thank you all for the background of the last decade. I truly enjoyed this dialogue. And you are correct, I don't live and die for VU athletics with the exception of BBall and it intensifies after Jan. 1 each year!
I realize the athletic program is more than just basketball, and agree that ALL the programs have been taken up a notch with one exception and I'm sure there is a post somewhere to dump foorball, but I won't go there.
I will admit, I am guilty of being Eastcoast centric, but also see how schools have turned things around for the campus in general not just the athletic department by being very promotionally minded. Valpo, who? is a common refrain, oh yea "The shot"...thankfully reprised by the NCAA each March and now by AXE.
Our Alumni donations and word of mouth only go so far when attracting a diverse student body and individuals with athletic prowess to boot... All of my children played D1 sports in college, and never gave VU a look.
With perhaps the exception of the Midwest, little is known about the schools in the Horizon League especially by high school coaches, and you are correct that Mid-Con was worse...but waiting for that single bid to the dance makes it tough competition I'm sure...
Carry on the good fight...BTW Bill Steinbrenner was my dorm supervisor, so my sports history is a bit more ancient than most...
See you all next January
Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2013, 09:27:37 AMI'm curious. What facility improvements did Butler do to enhance its success? They are just now raising money to improve Hinkle. They sure did pay Stevens--a million a year. Not to diminish Stevens in any way, but Butler's success was tied to getting very lucky with Hayward and Matt Howard (who was highly regarded) but not to the level he achieved as well as that other guard who is now also in the NBA. They were very good this year and made the dance because of the play of Rotnei Clark. How they do next year with he and Smith will be very interesting.
Brad Stevens is one of the best coaches in the country - period. What he has done at Butler is short of miraculous. THey do not get 4 and 5 star players like the Big 10 and ACC schools get. His teams are very well coached and they get players who are not head cases.
My feeling that since Butler is in the Big East, they will recruit better and they will be fine. They will not be in cellar since DePaul is there.
FWAlum - that was an excellent analysis you presented. It will be interesting to see what the AD does with football to see how it fit in with the entire athletic portfolio at VU. He has done a decent job, and it was overdue that they got out of the Mid-Con. It will be interesting to see the next steps.
Quote from: FWalum on March 25, 2013, 12:47:31 PMWelcome to the board! I am not sure how long you have been following VU sports, your knowledge of the athletic history seems a little weak, but I think it would be good for some of the posters here to give a little history as to what has happened in the sports department since the late 90's. I will try and get things started (historyman and others please jump in). We probably did miss the boat following the sweet sixteen year and could have used that to move to a higher profile conference, I will agree with you there. Most of that situation had to do with the administration and the relationship between our AD Dr. William Steinbrecher and his son Dr. Jon Steinbrecher who was commissioner of the old Mid-Continent Conference. For more history on this and some of the passion involved with the move to the Horizon League go to http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=2700&page=1 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=2700&page=1) and http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=509 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=509) even more http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=3505 (http://valpofans.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=valposports&action=display&thread=3505). The Horizon League is a much higher profile conference than the Mid-Con/Summit League. We moved from a conference that traditionally had a RPI in the low 20's range to a conference that was about 10 slots higher, a huge improvement. We went from a conference that was spread out over thousands of miles to a conference where most trips are within 250 miles or less from Valpo, another huge improvement for our student athletes. I think most of the posters here would agree that, with the possible exception of football, we have done a better job of hiring and or retaining higher quality coaches for almost all of our sports. I am not sure what stations you have available to watch but close to half of our games were on major television networks such as Fox Sports, ESPN Family of Networks or CBS with most of the rest being on the Horizon League Network on the internet. 6 of our last 8 games alone were on ESPN or CBS. The Horizon League "Brand" is much better than what we had previously and lest you forget Butler, whom you site in your posts, was in the MCC/Horizon from 1979-2012. Should Mark LaBarbera be on the lookout for new ways to market the Valpo Brand, certainly. Mark has a reputation for being proactive and has changed the face of VU sports significantly since he took this position. With the recent appearances of the bowling, softball, baseball and men's basketball in the NCAA tournaments the Valpo athletic brand is in better shape than anytime in the last 10-12 years. The recent advertising campaigns by Unilever AXE Apollo and Lowes have put VU in front of millions of people during the NCAA tournament. With continued athletic success, alumni backing and administrative support for facilities upgrades, VU should be poised to move in the proper direction.
I think you did a fine job and that's plenty of info for a poster who says he follows Valpo basketball but doesn't know much about it's history of conference affiliation. I think his biggest issue maybe that he listens to too many east coast writers (much like setshot) and because they don't do much on the Horizon League on the east coast he feels the Horizon League isn't good enough for where he wants Valpo to be.
Quote from: vu72 on March 25, 2013, 09:27:37 AM
I'm curious. What facility improvements did Butler do to enhance its success? They are just now raising money to improve Hinkle. They sure did pay Stevens--a million a year. Not to diminish Stevens in any way, but Butler's success was tied to getting very lucky with Hayward and Matt Howard (who was highly regarded) but not to the level he achieved as well as that other guard who is now also in the NBA. They were very good this year and made the dance because of the play of Rotnei Clark. How they do next year with he and Smith will be very interesting.
Quote from: wh on March 24, 2013, 01:25:27 PM
No doubt Butler has been living a charmed life. If not for 1-year wonder Rotnei Clark, they would have probably been worse this year than last - minus Hopkins. Other than Dunham none of their returning players look like they have much potential for improvement. At the same time they are going to be playing in even a tougher league. Butler's 15 minutes could be about over.
I realize it took place on the old board, but I thought we all agreed that Gordon Hayward was Butler's "one lucky recruit" and was solely responsible for all Butler success? Now you guys are claiming it's Clarke? (with mentions for Howard, Mack and Smith). Butler is clearly the luckiest program in NCAA basketball. I'm assuming these "lucky" recruits weren't evaluated or recruited or developed by Butler's staff ... they just showed up on campus?
FWIW, Butler played 3 3/4 games this year without Clarke. Those games were a road win at Dayton, 15 point win over Richmond, 1 point buzzer beating loss at La Salle (still alive in Sweet 16) and a win over Gonzaga. Clarke was very good this year, but they certainly appeared to be competitive in those 4 games without him.
I answered vu72 in another thread that Butler could take a step back next year, but the program is positioned well going forward. Just my opinion, but if you take a program / coach that went to back-to-back championship games, add a $25 million facilities upgrade (with more on the way) and a new $3+ million TV deal (more luck, I presume) in the Big East, I think they'll be ok. But that's just my :twocents: .
Howard was recruited by Xaiver and Purdue (who chose Scott Martin over him) and Hayward was recruited by Purdue. Butler is well placed for a continued significant run. BTW the Butler system was well in place well before Howard and Hayward showed up. Check out all the big time NCAA wins earlier this century.
lowposter
Not on topic, but I wanted to mention that I HEAVILY booed Hayward last night at the Mavs/Jazz game, and to much success ;D. I even got a group of people around me to chant 'Butler sucks' lol
Man, you guys need to leave Butler alone. They run a clean solid basketball program. They play a lot better than those zombie clowns in South Bend did Friday night...
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 25, 2013, 06:59:05 PMzombie clowns in South Bend
b-movie title of the year semifinalist
I'm new to this message board. Just discovered it after sadly watching the team fall to MSU in the tourny and couldn't get enough Valpo basketball.
Anyways I've done some research on the incoming class. Which all of you know to be Adekoya, Carter, Davidson, Peters, Williams, and Yeo. As for this group of incoming players, is one of the best and me being a junior at VU will see the first major turnover in talent. I do think next year Capo will have a big season, when he saw more playing time he flourished, so close to a triple double against UIC, who was a good team this year, and I think him becoming the starter will anchor the front court, maybe not as accurate as KVW but definitely has the ability to be an All Horizon League forward when all is said and done next year. I think Dority will be greatly improved too, he has the potential to be a big time scorer next year as he sees his playing time increase with the graduation of Buggs, even though I don't think he should be the PG (that job will belong to Carter once he is eligible at the semester break but I'll get o him later). In games against MO St, and @UIC you saw the potential he has and at times when he was locked in he was a prolific scorer but many times he was inconsistent and his defense lacked at time (UDM game) but if he improves on his decision making I think he can be a 15-20ppg player next year. Those are by far to me the two best players for the Crusaders next season.
Now for the bench players. The previous season started with a bang for Jordan Coleman with 15 points against GA SO, I thought we had something big and at times he showed some athleticism with some big time dunks but saw his play diminish. As long as he doesn't transfer out I think he will play a big role with the team and will likely start at the beginning of the season. I think Vashil will develop into a solid number 2 forward for VU, he plays defense well and those long arms make him a nightmare for anybody trying to drive into the lane for a shot and when he reaches out he maybe is two inches from the rim, has turned him into a dunk machine, that's all the offense he has brought to VU is some dunking on the offensive side of the ball. If he can improve his ball handling, he can really become something special in his remaining years at VU. While Alex Rossi can be a great shooter, although his defense is lacking at times, and I believe he had some sort of heart condition which is why he missed much of the season (at leased so I heard). As for Chadwick I know little or nothing about him, he has some size, have no idea if he can shoot or not, maybe the Rowdy replacement if he can shoot.
Now for the incoming class. As for Keith Carter, who I think is the best recruit in this class. Although I know he is a transfer from SLU, he was the runner up for the Illinois High School Basketball POY in 2012, which is saying something for the talent rich state of Illinois, and once eligible (although I heard he might be eligible immediately due to medical redshirt) will quickly fit in as the new PG. From some of the videos I've seen, he reminds me of a bigger Erik Buggs who can shoot, and I believe is Buggs was a good shooter he could possibly be NBA bound. The next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against). I think he as the potential to become a great player with VU and I believe he will make an immediate impact on his arrival to VU. Then I go to Alec Peters, who just finished in fifth place as the Illinois High School basketball POY, which is definitely saying something once again as being from talent rich IL. Peters reminds me a lot of Rowdy, and is possibly the size of Rowdy already 6'7" and 200 lbs, while Broekhoff only had him by 15 lbs his senior year. Like Rowdy Peters is a matchup nightmare for teams as he can shoot the three lights out and has the size and quickness to get to the rim. The next guy I will go with Jubril Adekoya, from what I've heard he can clean up the boards. Had 21 rebounds in a single game and for a guy who is listed at 6'6" (although I think he might be a bit bigger now) he can definitely become the guy we need on the offensive glass, and defensive glass. His size (as of now) might be the one thing that can hold him back a bit at the D-1 level, although he may still grown, and if he turns into a 6'8" 6'9" man, we got a steal. I think Lexus Williams can possible be the backup PG to Carter once Dority moves into the 2, where I think he belongs, the kid can shoot and pass pretty well, and can defend some too which is a plus for any freshman. As for Nick Davidson, he has the size of a Matt Kenney type, even though he can play PG I don't see him there I can see him similar to a Matt Kenney, he can do a little of everything, he can get the steal, make the three, or drive to the hoop.
As for the remaining scholarship I would love to see a big guy come 6'10" 250lbs+ come in whether it be transfer or freshman, because as we saw in the MSU game not having a BIG really hurt us in that game.
At the end of next year I expect the starting lineup to be: Capo, Dority, Carter, Yeo, and Peters (I think Yeo and Peters are that good). And I do believe Valpo will be one of the favorites for next year along with WSU and GB. But like 2011-12 season there is still a lot of uncertainty to whether or not the new faces pan out and if the juniors step up into their rolls and become bigtime players in their final season!
Guess I'll have to wait and see if my prediction about next season are right. Only 7 more months!!!!
Well written 14! Keep it coming and make sure you get your classmates to get off their butts and fill up the stands! ;)
Quote from: historyman on March 25, 2013, 02:56:16 PMI think you did a fine job and that's plenty of info for a poster who says he follows Valpo basketball but doesn't know much about it's history of conference affiliation. I think his biggest issue maybe that he listens to too many east coast writers (much like setshot) and because they don't do much on the Horizon League on the east coast he feels the Horizon League isn't good enough for where he wants Valpo to be.
Ease up Historyman...We're all on the same team here. No, I don't get to read the Pulitzer Prize winning NW Indiana Times but even the Chicago Trib. doesn't give much love to the HL...and obviously neither does the NCAA with only one bid assigned to such a lofty conference.
Quote from: vu72 on March 26, 2013, 06:48:48 AMWell written 14! Keep it coming and make sure you get your classmates to get off their butts and fill up the stands! ;)
Thanks :)
I know! It kills me to see all the games where nobody turned out. I for myself didn't miss a single game (expect for breaks)! Senior night was pathetic in my opinion, hopefully they'll be enough buzz around the team next year that students can fill the student section. Cause when it is full the ARC is rocking!
Quote from: VU72too on March 26, 2013, 07:02:54 AM
Quote from: historyman on March 25, 2013, 02:56:16 PMI think you did a fine job and that's plenty of info for a poster who says he follows Valpo basketball but doesn't know much about it's history of conference affiliation. I think his biggest issue maybe that he listens to too many east coast writers (much like setshot) and because they don't do much on the Horizon League on the east coast he feels the Horizon League isn't good enough for where he wants Valpo to be.
Ease up Historyman...We're all on the same team here. No, I don't get to read the Pulitzer Prize winning NW Indiana Times but even the Chicago Trib. doesn't give much love to the HL...and obviously neither does the NCAA with only one bid assigned to such a lofty conference.
So where do you expect Valpo to go, being only 4 years removed from the old conference? The Big East? Tell me how exactly the scenario is going to play out with Valpo in the Big East, or in a conference that is widely televised and covered in your Chicago Tribune. It's not like Valpo can invite itself to any conference it wants. They haven't won a NCAA tourney game since the 90's, and you're complaining about being in the Horizon League? That's just absurd. And the Horizon League has had at large bids, and an overall great record in the tournament for a mid major conference. Hell, they've put a team in two championship games. Really, your beef is with all mid major teams at this point. It's completely nonsensical. You offer these blind criticisms, but don't come up with any solutions to the issues you have. You're just trolling Valpo at this point. If you want to complain about something, there's plenty valid concerns. Complain about the facilities, the lack of student section attendance, hell, complain about the sidewalks not being properly salted before the game, but if you're coming here to complain that the Horizon League isn't good enough for Valpo, well you're just going to sound like a complete ignoramus.
Quote from: a3uge on March 26, 2013, 11:49:49 AMYou're just trolling Valpo at this point.
There is suspicion that VU72too is SadersOfTheLostARC, who was Crusader03, who was dcvalpo, i believe. So you'd be dead on if true.
Then again, that was initially thought of me too, so I'm remaining neutral. Our mods will be able to tell for sure.
Such venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County.
It's amazing how in less than 24 hours of my initial comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept. and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as an amazing feat. Really?
This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity.....
I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond.
Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...
I think we're fine in the Horizon League for now. Once we start regularly winning HL conference titles and tournament titles, with consistent NCAA appearances (leading to wins in the early rounds), then we have a resume worth showing a better conference. Why move to a new conference just because everyone else is doing it? Right now, we're a big fish in a small pond because we don't have any reason to go anywhere. If basketball is our only sport concern, we have zip to sell besides a young head coach with an NBA career and "One Shining Moment". Granted baseball, softball, soccer are getting better, but we don't have the consistency in any sport to give a selling point to any conference that we would want to move to.
After my diatribe here, what does Valpo really have to sell athletically to any conference that we should move up to?
In all "major" sports, other than women's basketball, (men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's basketball, baseball and softball) Valpo is near or at the top of our new conference. Those teams could compete well in say, The Valley, which is as high as a mid-major conference can be. The answer is to wait and see what shakes out from other conferences and then add teams that can strengthen the brand and not be geographically silly.
Quote from: VU72too on March 26, 2013, 12:38:21 PM
Such venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County.
It's amazing how in less than 24 hours of my initial comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept. and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as an amazing feat. Really?
This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity.....
I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond.
Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...
Insanity? You keep criticizing Valpo for remaining in the Horizon (THIS YEAR) but you offer no suggestion as to which superior conference Valpo could logistically switch to. Seriously, which conference do you think Valpo could have switched to? Now answer how we could have logistically gotten an invitation to said conference. Here, since you won't bother to do any research yourself, I'll even give you a list of conferences by RPI:
Rank Conference
1 Mountain West Conference
2 Big Ten Conference
3 Big East Conference
4 Atlantic Coast Conference
5 Big 12 Conference
6 Pac 12 Conference
7 Atlantic 10 Conference
8 Southeastern Conference
9 Missouri Valley Conference
10 West Coast Conference
11 Conference USA
12 Horizon League
13 Western Athletic Conference
14 Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference
15 Sun Belt Conference
16 Ohio Valley Conference
17 Patriot League
18 Mid American Conference
19 Summit League
20 Northeast Conference
21 Big West Conference
22 America East Conference
23 Ivy League
24 Colonial Athletic Association
25 Southland Conference
26 Atlantic Sun Conference
27 Southern Conference
28 Big Sky Conference
29 Big South Conference
30 Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference
31 Southwestern Athletic Conference
32 Great West Conference
33 Independents
The only theoretically possible options for Valpo at this point in time to move up would be the MVC, whom is losing Creighton. I really doubt Valpo has gotten an invitation to the MVC, and if they DID have an invitation, I doubt they'd turn it down.
Other than men's basketball, most of the top sports at VU are playing against only 5 or 6 conference members in said sports, most of which don't get much administrative support either. That makes it seem that the HL is holding Valpo back, but Valpo has too many sports that are inconsistent/bad for any other conference, and yes I will say that track and cross country are two of our worst, but those are directly affected by facilities that VU has tried to fund for, and FAILED.
I still don't see a need for Valpo to move up until we're consistently winning HL conference titles/tourneys and NCAA games. Otherwise, we might as well call ourselves ORU, UMKC, or Denver, who only made moves because everyone else was doing it.
Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this...
1 Mountain West
2 Big Ten
3 Big East
4 Atlantic Coast
5 Big 12
6 Pacific-12
7 Atlantic 10
8 Southeastern
9 Missouri Valley
10 West Coast
11 Conference USA
12 Horizon League
Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this...
1 Mountain West
2 Big Ten
3 Big East
4 Atlantic Coast
5 Big 12
6 Pacific-12
7 Atlantic 10
8 Southeastern
9 Missouri Valley
10 West Coast
11 Conference USA
12 Horizon League
Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.
Quote from: VU72too on March 26, 2013, 12:38:21 PMVU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL
There have only been five seasons in the last 19 years where the Horizon League has had to settle for a 13 seed or worse. Only nine of nineteen where the HL has settled for a 12 seed or worse. With six multi-bid years in those 19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament)
In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.
What makes you think they're part of a new pattern?
Quote from: classof2014 on March 26, 2013, 12:29:56 AMThe next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against).
It probably wasn't the most recent time.
But, who was it that Buggs dunked on at UNC?
You can take the A-10 off of the list in regards to conferences that will often have a higher RPI. With the 4 defections they are having, they are losing quite a bit in regards to RPI. Even the worst teams in the A-10 benefit greatly from just playing against these 4 schools. They may be close to our #12 come 2014-2015, and each of their members is going to be much more East than we want to go.
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2013, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: classof2014 on March 26, 2013, 12:29:56 AMThe next best player in the class is probably Clay Yeo, a guy coming to Valpo who can dunk on somebody is something to write home about! The last time I remember somebody attempting a dunk on someone was Richie Edwards trying a windmill dunk and failing (can't recall the team he tried it against).
It probably wasn't the most recent time.
But, who was it that Buggs dunked on at UNC?
Not sure who it was as I think it was a shot that went over the rim and he rose up, caught it with one hand and slamed it home. The problem was, it didn't count. No sure why. It was the game played at the United Center.
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2013, 01:43:12 PMIn that context, this year and last look like anomalies.
Anomalies! Don't let the Valpo students hear about those anomalies. They love to attend games with anomalies. ::) :)
Quote from: VU72too on March 26, 2013, 12:38:21 PMSuch venom is what is absurd...I am not familiar with any of these "handles" you quoted, and The Chicago Trib was referenced only as a newspaper that is read outside Porter County. It's amazing how in less than 24 hours of my initial comments about the schools that VU plays in the HL such a maelstrom of anger has ensued. Ttell me why a small private school is stuck playing against, with the exception of Detroit and Loyola, secondary level state schools, 3,4,5 times their size with much lower academic thresholds. Why? Poor planning on the part of the administration/ath. dept. and lack of vision. You are all heralding the move to the HL as an amazing feat. Really? This was the year to move on and up. The opportunity has passed VU by once again. VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL, and were VERY lucky to win the HL Tourney to get a bid in the first place..... I'm sure you are familiar with the definition of insanity..... I guess you all like being a minor-major fish in a small pond. Step out and see the world guys...see you at Homecoming...
Sorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once. They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above. I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC. They won once - and next year they will rebuild. Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.
Regarding Horizon vs. MVC - UWGB, a middle of the road Horizon team, got blown out by bottom dweller Drake in the MVC.
Valpo is not ready for prime time guys. They need a few years. Also, regarding academics, UIC is not a bad school and have good programs.
Quote from: bbtds on March 26, 2013, 02:59:41 PM
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2013, 01:43:12 PMIn that context, this year and last look like anomalies.
Anomalies! Don't let the Valpo students hear about those anomalies. They love to attend games with anomalies. ::) :)
Heh ;)
But, these anomalies give us hope for the future, more or less. Most of the time the Horizon League produces better NCAA seeds than what Detroit got, better than what we got. We have reason to expect better next time.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMWas the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen.
Does that description fit the new Big East? Or the A10? (The old A10, anyway.)
I'm not suggesting, by any means, that we've outgrown the Horizon League. But, I increasingly wonder how different we are from, say, middle of the pack schools in the Big East or A10.
Quote from: vu72 on March 26, 2013, 02:45:24 PMNot sure who it was as I think it was a shot that went over the rim and he rose up, caught it with one hand and slamed it home. The problem was, it didn't count. No sure why. It was the game played at the United Center.
Refreshing my memory with a bit of slightly lazy googling. I'm probably growing the legend a little.
Quote
We all know he [Buggs] has the elevation -- his putback dunk against North Carolina at the United Center (also nullified by a foul) was the stuff of legend. But he can't palm the ball, so putback dunks are really his only chance. Alas. One of these days, it'll happen again.
http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/11/holy-cross-at-valparaiso-nov-1.html (http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/11/holy-cross-at-valparaiso-nov-1.html)
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 26, 2013, 03:05:47 PMSorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once. They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above. I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC. They won once - and next year they will rebuild. Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.
Sorry but you are incorrect. Valpo has won the Horizon League Regular Season Conference Championship the last two years. The season long conference championship is much harder to win than the tournament championship.
Here is a picture showing last seasons banner along with the other banners from last year.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/33m963s.jpg)
While maybe not "dominant" two years in a row is a pretty good and difficult accomplishment.
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2013, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: VU72too on March 26, 2013, 12:38:21 PMVU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL
There have only been five seasons in the last 19 years where the Horizon League has had to settle for a 13 seed or worse. Only nine of nineteen where the HL has settled for a 12 seed or worse. With six multi-bid years in those 19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament)
In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.
What makes you think they're part of a new pattern?
Not advancing the last two years is also an anomaly, as the Horizon had won 22 NCAA tournament games over the previous 17 seasons. There aren't many (if any) non-BCS conferences that can match that success.
On that point, we have won 2 regular season titles in a row, and blew the 2010-2011 regular season title in the last 2 games. Therefore, we have been at the top of the league for 3 straight seasons, and would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10. We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.
Quote from: a3uge on March 26, 2013, 01:33:35 PMQuote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
I would disagree on the high academic standards discussion. Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools. It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others. UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture. Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 04:43:26 PMQuote from: usc4valpo on March 26, 2013, 03:05:47 PMSorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once. They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above. I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC. They won once - and next year they will rebuild. Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.
Sorry but you are incorrect. Valpo has won the Horizon League Regular Season Conference Championship the last two years. The season long conference championship is much harder to win than the tournament championship. Here is a picture showing last seasons banner along with the other banners from last year. (http://i49.tinypic.com/33m963s.jpg) While maybe not "dominant" two years in a row is a pretty good and difficult accomplishment.
OK, they have made the tournamment once in the Horizon and the game was over by half. On a national perspective, people remember if they make the NCAA tournament more than if they win their regualr season. It's like the Bulls last year - great record in the regular season, but no one cares since they lost in the first round.
Valpo is getting better, they need to win in the post season more, and I think they are in the right direction. But they are not close to Butler's level right now.
Quote from: valpotx on March 26, 2013, 05:10:58 PMand would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10. We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.
I do believe we would be among the top in the MVC, beat two very good MVC teams this season as in Eastern Kentucky and Murrary State. Would have loved to see if we could play Belmont. I don't think we would finish in the top 5 of the A-10. I think we would finish in the top half though and possibly crack the top 5. I don't believe we were up with the same level as a SLU, Butler, or a VCU. I would see VU falling somewhere between 3 and 8 in the A-10, I do think Temple and LaSalle would be tough but I think we could have beat them this year but they could easily beat us. So I think the MVC would be a great fit, the A-10 would be tough, but yes I do think we would be competitive and finish in the top half of teams.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 26, 2013, 05:29:21 PMQuote from: valpotx on March 26, 2013, 05:10:58 PMand would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10. We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.
I do believe we would be among the top in the MVC, beat two very good MVC teams this season as in Eastern Kentucky and Murrary State. Would have loved to see if we could play Belmont. I don't think we would finish in the top 5 of the A-10. I think we would finish in the top half though and possibly crack the top 5. I don't believe we were up with the same level as a SLU, Butler, or a VCU. I would see VU falling somewhere between 3 and 8 in the A-10, I do think Temple and LaSalle would be tough but I think we could have beat them this year but they could easily beat us. So I think the MVC would be a great fit, the A-10 would be tough, but yes I do think we would be competitive and finish in the top half of teams.
ude, I think you are referring to the OVC, not the MVC...
Also, I would not be worried about us against Butler. If we played them twice this season, we would have beaten them at least once...
Sorry got my Valleys confused. Anyways I think the OVC is probably the best fit for Valpo. I think it's a step up from the Horizon but the MVC would be good too but much tougher, with Wichita State and Creighton both winning games in the tourney this year. While the OVC did have Belmont this year and a few more quality programs than the Horizon has in Murray State and Eastern Kentucky. The OVC would also be the better fit geographically speaking.
Dude, I disagree. The Horizon is a better conference than the OVC. Belmont is getting better but cannot win that first game. Murray St. has a nice record but faces weak competition in and out of conference. Easter Kentucky is the same and a true ham-and-egger type team.
IMO, if Valpo moves up, it makes sense to go to the Valley. Of course these days, just like Michele Bachmann, nothing makes sense.
I think the OVC is a slight step up from the Horizon. Both conferences are very similar though. If the Horizon still had Butler they would be by far the better conference. It's close but they just have one or two more better teams than the Horizon does.
That may well be what you think, but the Other Valley Conference has never been ranked higher than the HL. I doubt they have ever even been closer than this year, when they were 16 and we 12.
Quote from: usc4valpo on March 26, 2013, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: a3uge on March 26, 2013, 01:33:35 PMQuote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
I would disagree on the high academic standards discussion. Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools. It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others. UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture. Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.
You're joking right? It's like comparing Northwestern to Western Illinois. Academically, we don't belong to the Horizon. That isn't why we are there.
I am starting to think that 'class' is the true reincarnation of 'saders, but this time he is portraying a current VU student to combat our attendance threads lol. The OVC better than the HL?? Please, you need to do the research before saying such a thing. We beat the ever-living crap out of one of their better teams, and beat another of their top teams on their court. Belmont was vastly overrated. The OVC as a better geographic fit? Their schools would increase our travel for all sports.
16 21 27 20 and 23.
12 14 11 14 and 12.
The top number is the OVCs RPI rank. The bottom is the Horizons last five years RPI rank. The Horizon is much better at basketball and fits geographically with Valpo. I mean Valpo is almost literally in the middle of the Horizon league.
Quote from: vu72 on March 26, 2013, 10:14:16 PMQuote from: usc4valpo on March 26, 2013, 05:18:29 PMQuote from: a3uge on March 26, 2013, 01:33:35 PMQuote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PMCan we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.
I would disagree on the high academic standards discussion. Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools. It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others. UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture. Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.
You're joking right? It's like comparing Northwestern to Western Illinois. Academically, we don't belong to the Horizon. That isn't why we are there.
Let's not go to that extreme. Valparaiso academically is not Northwestern and there is no comparision. Also, Loyola is a very good school, as is Detroit and UIC and UWGB has some good programs. Valpo is a very good school and one of the best in the Horizon, but please, let's not get elitist. Valpo has gaps too.
My question is - what conference do you recommend if Valpo wants to move? A-10? That can make sense.
One thing for sure - this discussion is hypothetical. Valpo will not leave the Horizon for awhile.
QuoteMy question is - what conference do you recommend if Valpo wants to move? A-10? That can make sense.
Personally I don't see Valpo leaving. I think the Horizon is a good fit in many ways. We're competitive in all sports but have yet to dominate anything. If Valpo wants to go to the A-10 the basketball team needs to do more than make it to one NCAA tourny and win 2 conference titles. If they're able to put together a string of 3 or 4 straight tournament births and win a game or two in the tournament then I can see us leaving for greener pastures.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 27, 2013, 08:32:49 AMa string of 3 or 4 straight tournament births
we may not have that yet, but if you look across VU's coaching staff, we have 2 or three straight tournament adoptions.
I think our non-basketball tournament "births" are a BIG factor......and the journey for Valpo to reach them seemed as long and painful a journey as child-bearing.
Those are the bedrock of our future jump to any new conference. I seriously think we would truly have the resume for a future MVC move now because volleyball is rock solid here and baseball and softball are very good too.
HOWEVER,....the question becomes whether we want to travel to Wichita St. and Mo. State and some other long trips when the Horizon League cities are better fits for travel and alumni attendance. Soccer might be a sport to really think through before jumping into multiple trips to the prairie.
The MVC without Creighton would be the 11th ranked conference in RPI (just ahead of the Horizon League) instead of 8th. The MVC without Creighton is a 1-bid league, not a multi-bid league. Add to that the proximity disadvantage (and everything that means) of being on the far edge of the MVC footprint instead of in the dead center of the HL, this move could not possibly be in the best interests of VU student athletes. I would be amazed if ml would pull the trigger on something like this, and that's assuming that the MVC would extend an invitation in the first place. Just my opinion.
I think we really have to look at poaching two of the upper level teams from the OVC and perhaps Evansville from the MVC. wh is right in saying that without Creighton the MVC comes down more to our level making it an easier decision for the EU administration to make the move. I know that they love the MVC, but I think they could be more competitive in the HL. After being on the parent's board I know that they think VU is one of their main competitors from an admissions standpoint.
QuoteI think we really have to look at poaching two of the upper level teams from the OVC and perhaps Evansville from the MVC.
Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. I don't believe we should go to the MVC, with them losing Creighton the league is similar to the Horizon, and geographically the nearest team I believe would be Bradley in Peoria, not the two Chicago teams. In the HL you also have a few large cities: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that all have a strong VU alumni presence in them, while the largest city in the MVC would be Des Moines. And travel is a lot easier in the HL for VU, Youngstown being the furthest they have to go compared to Wichita. Thus if the HL could poach a few to level teams from the OVC and the MVC instead of VU moving would be much more beneficial to the program.
Quote from: classof2014 on March 27, 2013, 12:30:34 PMThus if the HL could poach a few to level teams from the OVC and the MVC instead of VU moving would be much more beneficial to the program.
wh, good point on the MVC minus Creighton, although given that we lost Butler and kept our spot, perhaps we shouldn't expect them to fold when Wichita St is up there.
I think an emerging consensus is then forming here: let's stay in the HL and now that the A-10 and MVC are taking hits, let's carefully expand and take shots at them when we can/should: MVC (Bradley, Evansville?) OVC (Belmont? MSU or EKU?)
Whoever said you can't build yourself up by tearing someone else down clearly never commissioner-ated a conference.
Quote I don't believe we should go to the MVC,
Starting to believe that the move to the MVC makes more sense. Doesn't seem like the Horizon will expand and the MVC might offer them a spot and I'd say Valpo should take it since I think other teams: Loyola, UIC, Youngstown, and possibly Detroit leaving this year. If offered I don't see how we can turn it down based on the state of the league.
Where in the world do you get your information that YSU and Detroit are leaving? It looks like the A-10 is replacing it's lost teams with teams on the East coast (Detroit been mentioned in past, but not seeming likely), and the MVC is not going to invite Loyola/UIC/Detroit to their conference either. Are we sure that 2014 is not another character of Saders/dcvalpo/etc? ::)
Loyola and UIC have both been mentioned about drawing MVC interest.
I never said Detroit was going to get invited to the MVC, just remembered hearing some rumors in the past about them in the new Catholic league, maybe not this upcoming season but perhaps they're gone in another year or two. The only 3 from the Horizon might be Loyola, UIC, and Valpo. Valpo is the most likely but I can see them offering Loyola and UIC to get the Chicago market.
YSU did shock me but
QuoteI've heard YSU might be trying to get out of the HL, too, cuz they need an FBS football conf now that Big 10 won't play FCS anymore
according to
Rob Demovsky. YSU wants to be in an FBS, conference. Not sure how true it is but it was something that I heard within the past 24 hours.
The most likely thing to happen is (a) Valpo to MVC, (b) everything stays the same, (c) Valpo, Loyola, and UIC to the MVC. All 3 are possibilities, I think the first two are more probable than the latter. I don't see right now Detroit or YSU leaving but they have shown interest in possibly leaving which only adds fuel to the current unstable state of the Horizon.
Quote from: HC on April 01, 2013, 03:18:49 PM
Loyola and UIC have both been mentioned about drawing MVC interest.
I know that, but was speaking to my opinion that they are not attractive options for the MVC as far as their main revenue sport. I only see Loyola/UIC leaving the HL if Valpo is offered first, and the MVC wants to be at 12 teams.
The only conference that makes any sense for YSU is the MAC. They have wanted to be FBS for many years, going back to my time at Valpo, but I don't believe that the MAC has been interested in the past. Maybe that changes now, but it doesn't seem like they are losing schools at the moment.
Quote from: valpotx on April 01, 2013, 03:35:48 PMThe only conference that makes any sense for YSU is the MAC. They have wanted to be FBS for many years, going back to my time at Valpo, but I don't believe that the MAC has been interested in the past. Maybe that changes now, but it doesn't seem like they are losing schools at the moment.
The way things are going it is best to be proactive. I think that YSU to the MAC makes a lot of sense with football being the driver for so many of these changes.
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 26, 2013, 05:10:40 PMNot advancing the last two years is also an anomaly, as the Horizon had won 22 NCAA tournament games over the previous 17 seasons. There aren't many (if any) non-BCS conferences that can match that success.
True. However, 10 of those wins came in 2010 and 2011. The Horizon has sent 24 teams to the NCAA tournament in those 17 years - a 22-24 record. Also, Butler has 16 of those victories - all coming in their 7 bids during the years 2001-2011. Butler as HL rep in those 17 years: a 16-10 record. The rest of the HL: 6-14. I'd say the anomaly is Butler going to the final game two years in a row, although with Stevens and moving to Big East2, it won't be an anomaly for Butler - only the HL.
From Twitter, new head coach Craig Neal reports New Mexico will not play at Valparaiso:
Craig Neal: UNM will not play at Valpo in December. Will play either Washington or Stanford on ESPN on Dec. 20 in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
Quote from: valpopal on April 03, 2013, 05:56:30 PM
From Twitter, new head coach Craig Neal reports New Mexico will not play at Valparaiso:
Craig Neal: UNM will not play at Valpo in December. Will play either Washington or Stanford on ESPN on Dec. 20 in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
Probably a $75,000 buyout for Valpo, maybe more, I sure don't know. The fact is we had a contract and these things cost money to break. the chicken sh-t. Dan Monson did the same thing when he came to Minnesota a few years ago.
Quote from: vu72 on April 03, 2013, 06:32:34 PMQuote from: valpopal on April 03, 2013, 05:56:30 PMFrom Twitter, new head coach Craig Neal reports New Mexico will not play at Valparaiso: Craig Neal: UNM will not play at Valpo in December. Will play either Washington or Stanford on ESPN on Dec. 20 in MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
Probably a $75,000 buyout for Valpo, maybe more, I sure don't know. The fact is we had a contract and these things cost money to break. the chicken sh-t. Dan Monson did the same thing when he came to Minnesota a few years ago.
I'm sure the new NM coach, Neal, wouldn't have done it if the financial gain was not there. The payout from the ESPN deal with Washington or Stanford must be (I would guess substantially) more than the cost of the buyout for cancelling the game at Valpo. Nothing CS about it. Just a smart economic decision set up by the contract Valpo was forced to sign.
What's cowardly about it is so hard to recognize these days because it is so commonplace and so woven into the fabric of the sport. The fact remains that it is much more comfortable to play a high profile team on ESPN on a neutral court than risk coming to the ARC and losing to lowly Valpo. The very height of cowardice. I don't care what his reasoning is. 75K? He's getting off cheap.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 03, 2013, 07:04:04 PMWhat's cowardly about it is so hard to recognize these days because it is so commonplace and so woven into the fabric of the sport. The fact remains that it is much more comfortable to play a high profile team on ESPN on a neutral court than risk coming to the ARC and losing to lowly Valpo. The very height of cowardice. I don't care what his reasoning is. 75K? He's getting off cheap.
Okay, I'll vote Neal a coward. Do you think he cares one iota about what we think at Valpo? He cares only about what the New Mexico fan base thinks and I'm sure they are applauding him for the move.
Quote from: historyman on April 03, 2013, 07:13:01 PM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 03, 2013, 07:04:04 PMWhat's cowardly about it is so hard to recognize these days because it is so commonplace and so woven into the fabric of the sport. The fact remains that it is much more comfortable to play a high profile team on ESPN on a neutral court than risk coming to the ARC and losing to lowly Valpo. The very height of cowardice. I don't care what his reasoning is. 75K? He's getting off cheap.
Okay, I'll vote Neal a coward. Do you think he cares one iota about what we think at Valpo? He cares only about what the New Mexico fan base thinks and I'm sure they are applauding him for the move.
I don't care what he thinks of us. I only know what I think of him and all other coaches who dishonor commitments like this.
The whole darn system is corrupt beyond repair.
It's not like Neal was an outsider who fell off a turnip truck and rolled into Albuquerque the other day. He is a NM men's basketball insider who was promoted when his boss left. The fact that he would scrap the Valpo contract as one of his first actions demonstrates a lack of ethical behavior. That said, the fact that he did it so soon after taking over makes me wonder if that was New Mexico's plan all along. I wouldn't trust Alford any more than this character.
Put that 75k towards the gas fund when we go to the MVC
It does suck not getting NM next season but we can put that 75k to good use in the athletic department. Should be more than enough to put a track around Brown Field, and possibly put some of it towards ARC renovations!
Quote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 09:50:19 PM
It does suck not getting NM next season but we can put that 75k to good use in the athletic department. Should be more than enough to put a track around Brown Field, and possibly put some of it towards ARC renovations!
I didn't see that sarcastic side of you until now 2014. +1
Quote from: classof2014 on April 03, 2013, 09:50:19 PM
It does suck not getting NM next season but we can put that 75k to good use in the athletic department. Should be more than enough to put a track around Brown Field, and possibly put some of it towards ARC renovations!
Sader? This guy is bringing some much needed levity.
@NWIOren Valparaiso won't host New Mexico next season. Game will be pushed instead to the 2014-15 season. Conversation began before Alford left.
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
@NWIOren Valparaiso won't host New Mexico next season. Game will be pushed instead to the 2014-15 season. Conversation began before Alford left.
I feel a little better now. Actually the last person I was expecting to be shocked by the earlier news was Bryce, and this confirms it. The fact that they are still coming a year later is very different than what I had assumed.
Wow, if it will be 2014-2015 now, that gives us a better chance of winning with some experienced SO players!
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
@NWIOren Valparaiso won't host New Mexico next season. Game will be pushed instead to the 2014-15 season. Conversation began before Alford left.
Damn! no gas money and no extra ARC renovation money. We could have put in an extra prostate reliever in the chairback section. :lol:
Quote from: bbtds on April 04, 2013, 04:33:04 AM
Quote from: a3uge on April 04, 2013, 12:22:49 AM
@NWIOren Valparaiso won't host New Mexico next season. Game will be pushed instead to the 2014-15 season. Conversation began before Alford left.
Damn! no gas money and no extra ARC renovation money. We could have put in an extra prostrate reliever in the chairback section. :lol:
Pray, tell!!
Quote from: bbtds on April 04, 2013, 04:33:04 AMWe could have put in an extra prostrate reliever in the chairback section.
Um...that couldn't be in the chairback section, but the recliner.
Just thinking about this, have you noticed that DePaul and Northwestern has not faced Valpo since the 1979-80 season? Here is another example of 2 teams that are wimping out to save face, especially DePaul, who is at rock bottom. It has been awhile.
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2013, 09:00:44 AM
Just thinking about this, have you noticed that DePaul and Northwestern has not faced Valpo since the 1979-80 season? Here is another example of 2 teams that are wimping out to save face, especially DePaul, who is at rock bottom. It has been awhile.
Let's look at this from the other side of the coin...what benefit would it be for DePaul to schedule Valpo? What benefit would it be for Northwestern to schedule Valpo?
Notre Dame schedules cupcakes in the non conference season, just because they know the Big East (soon to be ACC) is a grind and they'll need the wins more than anything else. The conference covers the RPI and strength of schedule. Unless the team is going be be an attendance draw...why bother?
If I were DePaul or Northwestern, I wouldn't schedule Valpo either...no benefit to my university or team.
Those teams are playing 1-2 non conference games on the road each year. If they play on the road, it's typically in the Chicago area anyways (Chicago St, Loyola). If they can't beat a better mid major on the road, how do they expect to beat a B1G/BigEast conference opponent on the road?
I can see it benefiting the Northwesterns or DePauls to schedule a team like Valpo, either at home or on the road. Valpo has been good over the past few seasons and since there is now way Northwestern or DePaul are gonna win their conferences, a road win against a Valpo might look good to the selection committee if they were able to pull off a few upsets in their conferences. A win against a team like Valpo or if Valpo were to beat Northwestern or DePaul, it can be the difference between first four in or first four out.
It is a risk though, for if you lose, especially if your Northwestern or DePaul, that greatly hurts your chances of getting an at large bid unless Valpo has a really good season and is one of the elite mid-majors for that year. It's definitely a risk, a win will look really good while a loss would look bad.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 11:36:41 AM
I can see it benefiting the Northwesterns or DePauls to schedule a team like Valpo, either at home or on the road. Valpo has been good over the past few seasons and since there is now way Northwestern or DePaul are gonna win their conferences, a road win against a Valpo might look good to the selection committee if they were able to pull off a few upsets in their conferences. A win against a team like Valpo or if Valpo were to beat Northwestern or DePaul, it can be the difference between first four in or first four out.
It is a risk though, for if you lose, especially if your Northwestern or DePaul, that greatly hurts your chances of getting an at large bid unless Valpo has a really good season and is one of the elite mid-majors for that year. It's definitely a risk, a win will look really good while a loss would look bad.
Honestly it's not like losing to a mid major on the road will look any worse than how those teams look now. Both programs are an absolute joke. Nobody looks at them favorably to begin with. Playing a MEAC level schedule in the OOC portion is embarrassing. Depaul played two teams under 150 RPI this year. How does that help them at all? How do they look any better beating Chicago State on the road vs losing to a tough mid major on the road? Northwestern's OOC SOS was 231. Depaul 336. Iowa missed the tourney and they went 21-12, and 10-10 in the B1G TEN. They played ONE OOC road game and LOST to Virginia Tech. Maybe a road top 100 RPI win would've pushed their RPI lower and cause them to actually make the tournament.
Quote from: milanmiracle on April 04, 2013, 10:06:07 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on April 04, 2013, 09:00:44 AM
Just thinking about this, have you noticed that DePaul and Northwestern has not faced Valpo since the 1979-80 season? Here is another example of 2 teams that are wimping out to save face, especially DePaul, who is at rock bottom. It has been awhile.
Let's look at this from the other side of the coin...what benefit would it be for DePaul to schedule Valpo? What benefit would it be for Northwestern to schedule Valpo?
Toughening up for conference season, build confidence by beating tough mid-major, showing your athletes you have confidence in them, not looking like a bunch of wimps, ... I could go on and on and on.
I could bring up the spirit of competition, but we all know that spirit's been compromised beyond repair, so in the interest of not being laughed out of the room, I'll skip that one.
During the 2011-12 season Northwestern finished as a bubble team. Possibly if they scheduled some tougher non-conference mid-major opponents they would have gotten in, instead of just finishing outside of the bubble. Replacing the games against Texas Pan-Am, Texas So, Central Conn St, Eastern Illinois, etc... with higher quality mid-major programs, like Valpo, and winning 3 out of 4 might have been enough to push them over the edge last year to get the in. This year that would've proven to be moot because they were beyond bad but in years when they won a few upper-level B1G games but still finish just over .500 coupled with a few more wins against upper-level mid-major school probably would have been enough to be on the other side of the bubble and be in the tourney.
I think we can agree that with the 6 seniors gone our early season OOC start next year could be really ugly. Most of us can also agree that if all goes well we might finish the season on a roll with a RPI in the 90-150 range (give or take).
So if there are some scheduling advantages to our being a November pushover how can we exploit them? Might we be able to set up some 2 for 1, 1 for 1, or 1 and done deals that last years senior-led team could not get? Lots of names come to mind but would certainly include ND, Purdue, Northwestern, Butler and any of the MVC, or high mid-major (at large hope) teams.
Quote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 01:06:05 PM
I think we can agree that with the 6 seniors gone our early season OOC start next year could be really ugly. Most of us can also agree that if all goes well we might finish the season on a roll with a RPI in the 90-150 range (give or take).
So if there are some scheduling advantages to our being a November pushover how can we exploit them? Might we be able to set up some 2 for 1, 1 for 1, or 1 and done deals that last years senior-led team could not get? Lots of names come to mind but would certainly include ND, Purdue, Northwestern, Butler and any of the MVC, or high mid-major (at large hope) teams.
Maybe, but remember with Dority, Capo, Coleman, Chadwick, Rossi and Vashil, we have senior leadership and experience working with Bryce that won't rely on Freshman. It may not be as bad as you think.
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2013, 02:26:13 PMMaybe, but remember with Dority, Capo, Coleman, Chadwick, Rossi and Vashil, we have senior leadership and experience working with Bryce that won't rely on Freshman. It may not be as bad as you think.
I think you are correct. Both Dority and Capo are gonna be our go to guys next year and they will both be improved from this past season. If Dority can finish better I think he has the potential to be a 15 to 20ppg type player and Capo is that post player down low who will be a hard match up since he can shoot around the perimeter to keep the defense honest. If Vashil works on his ball handling skills I can see him as well being vastly improved, and I think we saw that when he did get some playing time as the season progressed. Same thing with Coleman, he seemed much more sound towards the end than the beginning, we just had 6 seniors in front of them who were playing their final games is why we didn't see much of Coleman. I think a guy like Keith Carter might be the X-factor next year, Mr. Basketball in Illinois runner-up in 2011. I think we got a steal when he left SLU. And if one of the freshman can produce right away we're in decent shape. Still a lot of unknowns about the next season and if some players aren't improved from last year or aren't as good as what we thought it could be a rough year. At least 1 or 2 out of the 6, possibly 7 (still have one scholarship spot open) newcomers can produce consistent numbers I think we're in good shape. But like I said still a lot of unknowns out there.
Quote from: vu72 on April 04, 2013, 02:26:13 PMMaybe, but remember with Dority, Capo, Coleman, Chadwick, Rossi and Vashil, we have senior leadership and experience working with Bryce that won't rely on Freshman. It may not be as bad as you think.
Has anyone in this group really provided any leadership? Maybe Dority. Was that great leadership? This is where this board heads out on a limb and starts calling that limb solid ground. Let's not over do it.
Quote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 01:06:05 PMSo if there are some scheduling advantages to our being a November pushover how can we exploit them?
Actually, there aren't really advantages to being a pushover--recall how UNM and other MWC teams "gamed" the RPI system: they played really good teams from lower conferences, not crappy ones.
If BCS and other top-10 conferences don't think we're going to be a 20+ win team, they won't want to schedule us. Look at Michigan--they scheduled Cleveland State thinking that they would be good, and Anton Grady goes down, and for a while MGoBlog was running a "days since CSU's last win" item on their basketball review, bemoaning the fact that every loss to the Loyolas and Milwaukee was reflecting on the Wolverines.
Although, didn't seem to stop them from running the table, I should (not yet) say ;)
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 04:04:17 PM
Quote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 01:06:05 PMSo if there are some scheduling advantages to our being a November pushover how can we exploit them?
Actually, there aren't really advantages to being a pushover--recall how UNM and other MWC teams "gamed" the RPI system: they played really good teams from lower conferences, not crappy ones.
If BCS and other top-10 conferences don't think we're going to be a 20+ win team, they won't want to schedule us. Look at Michigan--they scheduled Cleveland State thinking that they would be good, and Anton Grady goes down, and for a while MGoBlog was running a "days since CSU's last win" item on their basketball review, bemoaning the fact that every loss to the Loyolas and Milwaukee was reflecting on the Wolverines.
Although, didn't seem to stop them from running the table, I should (not yet) say ;)
CSU was part of the Preseason NIT and placed into Michigan's pod - Michigan did not put them on their schedule. You are correct about gaming the RPI though, every team does it in order to have a better shot of getting into the tourney as well as getting better seeding if they aren't from a Big 10/ACC type of conference.
I don't see Butler trying to schedule you guys anytime soon, but I do think if the HL manages to stay together you could become the dominant force in it. You've got a good class coming in next season and I look forward to seeing how everything plays out.
OK, so who WOULD play us at the UNITED CENTER next year ? getting close to dinner time and I'm contemplating the improved media room munchies.
Quote from: talksalot on April 04, 2013, 04:26:06 PM
OK, so who WOULD play us at the UNITED CENTER next year ? getting close to dinner time and I'm contemplating the improved media room munchies.
Illinois? Indiana? Notre Dame (again)? Wisconsin? All would be good local draws with great fan bases in the Windy City.
Quote from: IrishDawg on April 04, 2013, 04:18:51 PMCSU was part of the Preseason NIT and placed into Michigan's pod - Michigan did not put them on their schedule.
Good point. I was hoping no one would call me on that since i failed to come up with a better example :)
Quote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 01:06:05 PMSo if there are some scheduling advantages to our being a November pushover how can we exploit them?
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on April 04, 2013, 04:04:17 PMActually, there aren't really advantages to being a pushover--recall how UNM and other MWC teams "gamed" the RPI system: they played really good teams from lower conferences, not crappy ones.
If BCS and other top-10 conferences don't think we're going to be a 20+ win team, they won't want to schedule us.
Let me try again. Because of our senior losses we should be viewed next November as a relatively low risk with potentially high reward OOC opponent. As the holdovers figure out their new roles, the freshmen gain experience, and Keith Carter comes onboard mid December our mid season team may resemble our Nov team very little. So if the HL does show significant improvement next year and we are strong down the stretch then an unimpressive Nov win over a 180 rpi VU, could look much better in March if we move up to 90 or 90+. In an attempt to improve our schedule could our early season disadvantage be used for some longer term scheduling benefit? I think that should be the way that Bryce tries to sell it.
Quote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 07:18:06 PM
Let me try again. Because of our senior losses we should be viewed next November as a relatively low risk with potentially high reward OOC opponent. As the holdovers figure out their new roles, the freshmen gain experience, and Keith Carter comes onboard mid December our mid season team may resemble our Nov team very little. So if the HL does show significant improvement next year and we are strong down the stretch then an unimpressive Nov win over a 180 rpi VU, could look much better in March if we move up to 90 or 90+. In an attempt to improve our schedule could our early season disadvantage be used for some longer term scheduling benefit? I think that should be the way that Bryce tries to sell it.
I agree, the team in November won't be anything like the team in February. I do think we should schedule tough competition OOC but nothing too tough where we put ourselves in a whole with 5 probable losses to high quality teams early on. If we can schedule once again teams like SLU, NM, Nebraska, Murrary St, etc... who knows maybe we could surprise a few people and steal a game or two. I do agree I think November we might struggle a bit with all the newcomers and not have Keith Carter till mid-December. I'm looking at next season like the 2011-12 season, not with high expectations but I don't see them being subpar though. Drew is too good of a coach and if a few of our juniors can improve and the freshman grow as the season goes on I think we'll have a stellar season, not like this season but worthy of a CBI or CIT bid. Anything more than that would be a pleasant surprise.
Quote from: classof2014 on April 04, 2013, 07:52:04 PMQuote from: justducky on April 04, 2013, 07:18:06 PMLet me try again. Because of our senior losses we should be viewed next November as a relatively low risk with potentially high reward OOC opponent. As the holdovers figure out their new roles, the freshmen gain experience, and Keith Carter comes onboard mid December our mid season team may resemble our Nov team very little. So if the HL does show significant improvement next year and we are strong down the stretch then an unimpressive Nov win over a 180 rpi VU, could look much better in March if we move up to 90 or 90+. In an attempt to improve our schedule could our early season disadvantage be used for some longer term scheduling benefit? I think that should be the way that Bryce tries to sell it.
I agree, the team in November won't be anything like the team in February. I do think we should schedule tough competition OOC but nothing too tough where we put ourselves in a whole with 5 probable losses to high quality teams early on. If we can schedule once again teams like SLU, NM, Nebraska, Murrary St, etc... who knows maybe we could surprise a few people and steal a game or two. I do agree I think November we might struggle a bit with all the newcomers and not have Keith Carter till mid-December. I'm looking at next season like the 2011-12 season, not with high expectations but I don't see them being subpar though. Drew is too good of a coach and if a few of our juniors can improve and the freshman grow as the season goes on I think we'll have a stellar season, not like this season but worthy of a CBI or CIT bid. Anything more than that would be a pleasant surprise.
Honestly, to me, this seems like too many IFs which are mounting up against the 2013-14 Valpo team.
Quote from: talksalot on April 04, 2013, 04:26:06 PM
OK, so who WOULD play us at the UNITED CENTER next year ? getting close to dinner time and I'm contemplating the improved media room munchies.
I'm thinking a doubleheader with Valpo vs ND or Iowa, and Loyola vs ND or Iowa. Iowa and ND have fan bases in Chicago, and the HL teams need the games.
For those who want to move on and think ahead, here is a prediction of the Horizon League basketball season for next year, though it was posted just before the news about the loss of Loyola, which it predicted to finish behind Valpo in fifth place.
The forecast has Valpo in fourth place, behind Green Bay in first followed by Wright State in second and Detroit in third. (The predictions were also composed before the investigation at Green Bay, and we don't know what influence, if any, that could have.)
I question the summary about Valpo because it states the "2013 recruiting class is deep, but without any highly touted prospects. Their highest rated recruit is probably 6'6" Jubril Adekoya." I think the league will be surprised by our prospects, especially Alec Peters.
http://basketballpredictions.blogspot.com/2013/04/2013-14-preview-mid-majors-part-ii.html (http://basketballpredictions.blogspot.com/2013/04/2013-14-preview-mid-majors-part-ii.html)
Quote from: valpopal on April 14, 2013, 07:25:11 PMI question the summary about Valpo because it states the "2013 recruiting class is deep, but without any highly touted prospects. Their highest rated recruit is probably 6'6" Jubril Adekoya." I think the league will be surprised by our prospects, especially Alec Peters.
I think Clay Yeo and Keith Carter will be guys who will immediately turn some heads. Yeo is an Indiana All-Star and Carter was runner up Mr. Basketball in Illinois in 2011. Although, Carter is not a traditional recruit he'll still have 2 1/2 season of eligibility remaining, I believe, and being runner up in the state of Illinois is something to brag about if your Carter.
I have hopes for "next season and beyond", this recruiting class has a lot of potential and I am eager for the start of the next season to watch all 7 new guys take the court next season, including Chadwick. Hopefully we can capture fire in a bottle and have a 5 great players for the next four years, 1 great player for the next 3 seasons, and 1 great player for the next 2 seasons.
I remember hearing (reading) somewhere that the coaching staff thinks Alec Peters can make an immediate impact. After all he is a Top 10 IL All Star, had 25 official D-1 offers, including Butler, St. Louis, Boston College, Tennessee, etc. He's 6-8 and can shoot the lights out. It's also probably safe to assume that he will bulk up.
Is it a known fact that Keith Carter is not eligible until 2nd semester? Wasn't he hurt at St. Louis and played in only a handful of games? I wonder if we have gotten an official notification of when he will become eligible?
Quote from: wh on April 14, 2013, 10:47:57 PMIs it a known fact that Keith Carter is not eligible until 2nd semester? Wasn't he hurt at St. Louis and played in only a handful of games? I wonder if we have gotten an official notification of when he will become eligible?
I think he is only eligible at the start of the semester. Not 100% sure though, I did hear some rumors that he might have been able to redshirt and he'll still be considered a freshman. I know that's why he left SLU he wanted more time to heal but the coaches wanted him to play and possibly make the injury worse. Don't blame Carter for leaving SLU if that was the case.
The issue with Carter is that he wanted a medshirt for the year, only playing 3 games, but being as he transferred during that year it's far from a sure thing.
It's theoretically possible that if he got it he could play the spring semester plus 3 more years; but it's also possible they could grant him immediate eligibility, for three total years; or worst-case scenario, spring semester plus 2 more.
It seems the NCAA has been slowly liberalizing the exceptions to their rules, but the process is sloooow (for instance Devin Gardner receiving a redshirt this spring for his 2010 fall freshman season).
A couple "Too early" questions going into the 13-14 season. What will the starting lineup be? Dority, Coleman, Bobby, Rossi, Chardwick? What are our non conference games?
There's always the chance of adding a player that will be a starter. Dority and Capobianco are locks. Coleman is likely. Carter is likely when he becomes eligible. Peters is likely. Yeo and Adekoya could start and will definitely be in the rotation.
Obviously both Capo and Dority will be starters from beginning to end. I think Coleman will also be a starter at the beginning and at the end, or possibly be a Matt Kenney type who plays 20-25 minutes from the bench. If Carter is immediately eligible he'll be our starting PG, if not he will have to wait till December. I think Chadwick will start the season as well but wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't finish the season a starter. I think the 3 freshman who're most likely to start at some point in the season are: Peters, Yeo, and Adekoya. I think Peters is the best in our recruiting class but you never know, they've never played at this level. Out of the 5 freshman I do believe that one or two of them will be starting by the end of the season and 3 or 4 will be playing significant minutes. There still is that eligible scholarship spot remaining, I think they're going transfer at this point, whether he'll be eligible immediately or redshirt the season might play a big role in the freshman's playing time. I think we'll see the freshman a lot in the beginning so we can see what they have and come the conference games I think their minutes will drop except for 2 or 3 of them who really shine.
Still, there are a lot of questions surrounding this team. We'll have to wait till the beginning of the season to see how good these kids truly are. The potential is there but that's only potential. And I do believe this team can do great things and will solidify Valpo as a mid-major powerhouse for years to come. Then again, I've been wrong before and I know I'll be wrong again.