Picked this up from the WSU board -
Waters speaks out about HL expansion and and the possibility of a "conference challenge" in the future:
HL expansion: As for HL expansion, Waters said the league will likely add another school after this season. The HL currently stands at nine teams.
"They are going to do it this year," Waters said about Horizon League expansion. "Definitely one."
The HL could add up to three schools in the future.
Schools that have been rumored as possibilities include: Belmont, Murray State, Northern Kentucky, IUPUI, IPFW and Lipscomb.
HL-WCC Challenge?: Waters said HL coaches have discussed the possibility about taking part in a "conference challenge" as early as next season. Possibilities could be with the West Coast Conference or the Colonial.
"We really want to do that,"Waters said about the HL taking part in a conference challenge. "We got to find a way to play the WCC next year. I will promote this [at our next coaches meetings]. That is something that can help our league."
http://clevelandstatehoops.blogspot.com/2015/01/csu-basketball-notebook-cleveland-state.html (http://clevelandstatehoops.blogspot.com/2015/01/csu-basketball-notebook-cleveland-state.html)
Belmont is obviously the most likely given their inclusion in men's soccer, and scheduling our conference teams in other sports as part of that deal. It would be fantastic to see Belmont and Murray State, as that could lead to being a multiple bid league.
I'd put my money on Northern Kentucky, IMO. As with Oakland, it's the safe, ground ball up the middle plain vanilla move. They are a geographical oddity in the Atlantic Sun and a good travel partner location wise for Wright State. Plus, it creeps the HL footprint south towards Tennessee for future potential expansion. Murray has to worry about placing their football somewhere if they move.
What would be really shocking is if the HL went after UAB outright to potentially lure Belmont and Murray at a later date. Now that would be really proactive, but I can't see that happening. Although with this expansion stuff you never know what will happen. I mean I suppose it is possible that EKU might somehow get a call up to FBS and leave the OVC because of UAB's shuttering of its football program, which could also affect HL expansion too.
UAB is in Alabama. No.
And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.
IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.
This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU. For whatever reason, Murray State and Belmont have been happy in the OVC, and NKU is geographically stretched from some of the ASUN schools. So I predict we settle with NKU. They have a nice arena and spend a bunch on athletics. Usually that translates to success down the road.
I love the idea of a conference challenge and I would like to see it expend to more than the one game that most conferences do. I'd love to see each school from their conference schedule 4 games against schools in our conference. You could even rotate it so you play the entire conference over a 3 year period. 4 games would allow you to split it so you have 2 home games and 2 road games. If you did a 5 year contract to do this with another 10 team league you'd have a home game against every team once the contract runs out. The scheduling makes so much sense that it will never happen.
I'd really like a match up against the CAA. I realize the WCC would be a step up in competition for us, it's just so far away from all of our schools that the travel would be reminiscent of our Mid-Con days. If the CAA isn't up for getting beat every season by us then the MAC, MVC or Ivy would be fun to play. I think I'd pick the Ivys to play first just because the legacy of those schools is outstanding and while they aren't known as basketball powerhouses, they've improved the last 4 or 5 years.
Quote from: a3uge on January 09, 2015, 09:28:39 AMUAB is in Alabama. No.And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU.
I tend to agree. Of these three, who is the most likely to say yes? I like Belmont this summer, with Murray State and NKU to follow.
I think we should continue to schedule IPFW and IUPUI. I like the conference challenge.
Quote from: covufan on January 09, 2015, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: a3uge on January 09, 2015, 09:28:39 AMUAB is in Alabama. No.And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU.
I tend to agree. Of these three, who is the most likely to say yes? I like Belmont this summer, with Murray State and NKU to follow.
I think we should continue to schedule IPFW and IUPUI. I like the conference challenge.
We should be playing IUPUI and IPFW every year. Tons of alumni in both areas, and we play a bunch of 200-300 RPI teams anyways.
I don't see Belmont leaving first because they still probably don't want to pay for a buyout to switch a conference they recently joined. I think Murray State would be more likely, but I think both will stay put in the OVC for some time.
Love Belmont Private!!!! NKU has appeal as well. FCS Football will drive Murray and EKU. However, one OVC team that does not have FB issues is Morehead State -- they are already in the PFL. We (VU) already have a relationship. The MBB program is not a front runner at this point, but they are 3rd in the OVC East right now. They have 15 sports (including Baseball, Tex) but no MSO :(. What if they were approached conditionally if they add men's soccer? Are they even a dark horse possibility for further discussion???
Quote from: VULB#62 on January 09, 2015, 03:58:18 PMHowever, one OVC team that does not have FB issues is Morehead State -- they are already in the PFL. We (VU) already have a relationship. The MBB program is not a front runner at this point, but they are 3rd in the OVC East right now. They have 15 sports (including Baseball, Tex) but no MSO . What if they were approached conditionally if they add men's soccer? Are they even a dark horse possibility for further discussion???
No. Also too tied to the OVC. They have no more reason to leave the OVC then Murray St, Belmont or Eastern KY.
Quote from: a3uge on January 09, 2015, 09:28:39 AMUAB is in Alabama. No. And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.
On UAB, you gotta be thinking big, and definitely adding more south. That would be a big move and would need to be carefully considered, but without dawdling.
Lipscomb actually means Belmont almost for sure--Lipscomb is talked about mainly as a way to convince Belmont to join, giving them a southern travel partner. I don't think we'd see Lipscomb without Belmont, and we're more likely to see Belmont with Lipscomb. Lipscomb is Belmont's historic rival, too.
Quote from: Pathfinder on January 11, 2015, 12:34:03 AM
Quote from: a3uge on January 09, 2015, 09:28:39 AMUAB is in Alabama. No. And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.
On UAB, you gotta be thinking big, and definitely adding more south. That would be a big move and would need to be carefully considered, but without dawdling.
Lipscomb actually means Belmont almost for sure--Lipscomb is talked about mainly as a way to convince Belmont to join, giving them a southern travel partner. I don't think we'd see Lipscomb without Belmont, and we're more likely to see Belmont with Lipscomb. Lipscomb is Belmont's historic rival, too.
Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.
Again, UAB is in Alabama. That's a nightmare for every sport and every team. And UAB just cut their football team, they're not going to want to join a conference where they have to fly the volleyball team to Green Bay every year.
I would love to add two privates such as Belmont and lipscomb. And while we are it add a private from Pittsburgh such as Robert Morris or Duquesne. That would give the HL 12, 5 being private and 7 large commuter state schools. Robert Morris is the better basketball program. Both have soccer. Either one would be a good travel partner for ysu. The downer is that neither has baseball.
Belmont, Robert Morris and NJIT
NJIT :o
Quote from: a3uge on January 11, 2015, 12:53:22 AM
Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.
That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.
Lipscomb and Belmont are long time rivals going back to their NAIA years. They still play twice a year even though they are not in the same conference.
Why not, NJIT provides academia and they can beat a Big 10 team. In reality, Belmont would be great for the Horizon conference.
Quote from: Pathfinder on January 11, 2015, 06:40:38 PM
Quote from: a3uge on January 11, 2015, 12:53:22 AM
Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.
That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.
I can't imagine a worse "addition" to the conference than Lipscomb. They are well on their way to their 4th consecutive losing season, while playing in one of the worst low major conferences in D-1 basketball. Their RPI over the same 4 years has been 272, 211, 242 and 218. Their average home attendance last year was 1740, which would place them dead last in the HL. Whatever the benefit of adding Belmont would be completely negated by adding another bottom feeder (we have enough of those now).
Then there are the fans around the league that want to add Northern Kentucky. Who's Northern Kentucky? They're a totally unproven nobody with a nice basketball facility. Oh, but wait, they would make a good traveling partner for Wright State. What the heck is that about? That's like giving someone a job because they fit the uniform. There are only 2 programs in that area that are worth any consideration, and that's Belmont and Murray State. That's it - period. Even then, I'm not convinced that they're going to raise the profile of the league. Consider this - Wright State already beat Belmont twice this year and Valpo absolutely destroyed Murray State. One of the 2 of them will undoubtedly end up representing the OVC in the tournament, but what does that say other than they're the 2 best teams in a terrible low major conference.
The goal should never be about adding programs for the sake of adding programs. The goal should always be about elevating the profile of the Horizon League. We might want to begin with the 9 current members taking a serious look at all the shabby coaching and recruiting that permeates this league, and doing something about it. If we did that, we might be surprised at how many programs would be knocking on our door to get in, instead of settling for teams way out of our footprint, hoping they'll do for us what we inexplicably seem to be incapable of doing for ourselves.
By the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced. That would be a good place to start.
Remember when the addition of Valpo was thought of as 'moronic' by a decent amount of HL fans? :) Considering that we have placed at least 4th in every season but one (when we had some key transfers out), I would have to say that those fans are eating their words.
All this expansion talk. What if we go the other direction and kick ysu out and go with 8? Except Belmont, no other schools increase the value of the HL. So are we trying to add 2-3 to make travel easier? If that's the case, Go to 8 and have travel partners.
interesting...addition by subtraction. it worked with josh smith, anyway.
how would one even go about that, though?
The same way chicago st. Was dismissed or asked to leave the mid-con? I don't know and highly doubt if it happens. Just an idea because it appears we want to add not quality but for travel partners. Even though we should remember potential quality when making these choices. If we eliminate ysu does it accomplish the same as adding N. Kentucky?
We go 8 but each school makes a commitment for better coaching, better recruits, scheduling bylaws an increase budget and spending.
Yep, expanding to 12 teams so we can lure 1 team that we actually want is completely ignorant. Instead of 9 teams competing for 1 tournament slot it'll be 12. We'll split shares 12 ways instead of 9. Travel expenses and time away from the classroom will be much higher for several currant programs. And then, what if Belmont becomes disenchanted with not going to the tournament because they no longer have a cake walk and gets tired of all their extra travel and decides to return to the OVC?
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
If the consideration is travel partner for Wright State, NKY makes sense... 68 miles apart; they do have Baseball (14-37, Sagarin #270-Valpo was #211), Softball (5-45 last year, Golf and Soccer.
In athletics, we began competing on the NCAA Division I level during the 2012-13 academic year as the newest member of the Atlantic Sun Conference.
The Norse advanced to Division I after winning three national championships and 22 regional titles at the NCAA Division II level. The men's soccer team was the 2010 Division II national champion. In both 2000 and 2008, the women's basketball team won the Division II national title.
Not only are we attracting talented students and faculty, but we're also recruiting a distinguished set of lecturers. Speakers to NKU in recent years have included politician Bob Dole, political strategist James Carville, journalist Bob Woodward and President George W. Bush.
Looking at the Nashville Pair...
and Lipscomb (2014 Baseball Sagarin 143) has had some Baseball success; and they are on our 2015 schedule...Sat 2/21 at 2pm...
They have Baseball, Golf and Soccer
and Belmont has baseball (Sagarin #195) and they are on our 2015 Schedule, Sunday 2/22 1:00pm) , Golf and Soccer
and Murray State has Baseball (Sagarin #204) and Golf... but No Men's Soccer. They have a 16,800 seat football stadium... average attendance last year was 4,800... they were 3-9.
Quote from: wh on January 11, 2015, 11:57:42 PM
Quote from: Pathfinder on January 11, 2015, 06:40:38 PM
Quote from: a3uge on January 11, 2015, 12:53:22 AM
Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.
That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.
I can't imagine a worse "addition" to the conference than Lipscomb. They are well on their way to their 4th consecutive losing season, while playing in one of the worst low major conferences in D-1 basketball. Their RPI over the same 4 years has been 272, 211, 242 and 218. Their average home attendance last year was 1740, which would place them dead last in the HL. Whatever the benefit of adding Belmont would be completely negated by adding another bottom feeder (we have enough of those now).
Then there are the fans around the league that want to add Northern Kentucky. Who's Northern Kentucky? They're a totally unproven nobody with a nice basketball facility. Oh, but wait, they would make a good traveling partner for Wright State. What the heck is that about? That's like giving someone a job because they fit the uniform. There are only 2 programs in that area that are worth any consideration, and that's Belmont and Murray State. That's it - period. Even then, I'm not convinced that they're going to raise the profile of the league. Consider this - Wright State already beat Belmont twice this year and Valpo absolutely destroyed Murray State. One of the 2 of them will undoubtedly end up representing the OVC in the tournament, but what does that say other than they're the 2 best teams in a terrible low major conference.
The goal should never be about adding programs for the sake of adding programs. The goal should always be about elevating the profile of the Horizon League. We might want to begin with the 9 current members taking a serious look at all the shabby coaching and recruiting that permeates this league, and doing something about it. If we did that, we might be surprised at how many programs would be knocking on our door to get in, instead of settling for teams way out of our footprint, hoping they'll do for us what we inexplicably seem to be incapable of doing for ourselves.
By the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced. That would be a good place to start.
I'm certainly not going to call you out on your prerogatives with potential conference expansion members, as you have a right to them, although you are selling a school like NKU short, IMO. Where I disagree with you is when you mention that the HL would be settling for teams
way outside of its footprint with schools like NKU, Belmont and/or Murray. Can't agree. As someone has already mentioned, NKU is an hour's drive south from WSU. The University of Evansville is located farther south than NKU.
Maybe what the HL should do is follow the way of the SWC? You know, that now defunct conference that was so geographically compact that it ended up collapsing in the mid 90's because it was so regional. Sometimes being too conservative with a conference footprint and being too geographically compact can work to a conference's detriment, particularly at the D-I level. Putting Kentucky or Tennessee for that matter as being outside of the footprint is being way too conservative on that point, IMO.
Quote from: wh on January 11, 2015, 11:57:42 PMBy the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced [with a better coach]. That would be a good place to start.
My choices would be surly Jerry Slocum (YSU), Howard Moore (UIC) and who else? Ray McCallum Sr (Detroit)? Rob Jeter (Milwaukee)? I say "no" on Jeter. If I was in control I would also not replace Brian Wardle (Green Bay), Gary Waters (Cleveland St), Billy Donlon (Wright St), Greg Kampe (Oakland) and, of course, Bryce Drew.
What thoughts does anyone have on which coaches to replace if you had to replace three HL coaches?
In terms of coaches, definitely Slocum and Moore. Jeter should have been gone because of the academic APR, but his trip to the NCAA tournament last year saved his butt. McCallum will stay a little longer, as his teams still win in the conference. Kampe gets to leave on his own terms. Waters could be gone if CSU doesn't get to the NCAA tourney, and Donlon will stay until he decides to find a better program. Wardle, I'm still not sure about him. He's a head case, but wins games with a little bit of talent. Like I say, Jeter would be my third because of the APR mess, but because they went to the NCAA tournament last year, it saved him.
In terms of expansion, doesn't Northern Kentucky still have a couple of seasons before they are full-fledged members of D-I? I mean, they are probationary members of D-I currently, correct?
I would like to see the league at 10 times at some point in the future. 12 is too many. I liked the addition of Oakland, made sense. My guess is Belmont will join, makes sense they're already a part of soccer, and the OVC isn't very good. The only drawback for Belmont is that they'll be on an island with the closest school is Wright State which is just over 5 hours away, so their travel expenses will be very high, while if the stay in the OVC, they play teams from Tennessee, Kentucky, etc... Makes sense.
Honestly, I would like Valpo to join the MVC at some point but that's a completely different discussion.
Quote from: valporun on January 12, 2015, 05:29:16 PMIn terms of expansion, doesn't Northern Kentucky still have a couple of seasons before they are full-fledged members of D-I? I mean, they are probationary members of D-I currently, correct?
NKU is in the process of classifying to the NCAA Division I. During the four-year reclassification, NKU will not be eligible for Division I championships. The university ended its membership in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (GLVC) at the conclusion of the 2011–12 academic year and began playing a full Atlantic Sun conference schedule in fall 2012. Following the four years, NKU will become a full Division I member.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse)
That means the Norse will be full fledged Div. I members as of the conclusion of the 2015-16 academic year.
Great point about the Southwestern Conference being too regional, and going kaput! I took would like to see 2-3 teams added to help expand the footprint a little bit, and possibly bring 2 quality basketball programs in. With all of the conference realignment in the last decade, it is safer to be making moves proactively, than reactively, if a program leaves the HL.
If I had my druthers, would add Belmont (Nashville). Private and fits what we would like. Would consider Murray because of its history of solid basketball and can pair with Belmont. Drake (pioneer league) is intriguing as it adds a private school and doesn't add tons of travel. Under no circumstances should we add NKU. There is no reason at all. No different than YSU, WSU, UWGB, UWM or CSU, and we have plenty of those. They can join the Summit.
The MVC really isn't much different than the Horizon -- NIU, WSU, SMS, ISU, ISU, SIU(most are public universities and travel costs jump).
A-10 is where the schools we are most similar reside, and has a few other Pioneer League teams (Davidson/Dayton). Gives them a Chicago/NWI media market. Picks up STL for us.
The other one we make lots of sense for is Big Least.
What difference does it make if the HL adds a public or private school? I don't think its a good indicator of how decent athletics will perform. Nobody associates mid major conferences with academics or public/private splits, so I'm not sure why the league should turn down schools with large athletic budgets simply because they're public.
This hasn't been discussed in a while so thought I'd post a pretty interesting write-up on possible conference moves. It is the "domino" effect. He has Missouri State leaving the Valley for the SunBelt for Football reasons. The Big East adding Dayton and St. Louis to further strengthen their Catholic affiliation ;) The Valley adding us and Milwaukee, The Horizon adding the IUPU teams and so forth.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=451&f=2368&t=12813059 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=451&f=2368&t=12813059)
Dude is pretty roundly mocked for it though in the comments below. Plus it dates back to 10 months ago.
I suppose we'll see.
Yeah, I suppose you are right. Still, the time frame is only 5 months away (July 1, 2015 ) and is interesting speculation wise. Being in the Valley would be particularly interesting if Oral Roberts is added as we would have historic rivalries with them as well as Indiana State and Evansville from our ICC days.
Being in a conference with equal private and publics is also attractive. Being in with Loyola, Bradley, Drake,and Evansville is also an upgrade from just Detroit. This isn't a snob thing but rather a competitive thing. Look at the academic requirements at YSU:
Applicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.
That pretty much means anybody can get in. That's fine as low scores/grades can be attributed to many things. It also means however that we aren't recruiting against/for the same kids.
Ohio State, Dayton, Cincinnati and Xavier would all make great travel partners with Wright State. :)
It expands to 10 by inviting Morehead State, which does not sponsor football,
The PFL sure needs to get some better publicity when many members of the league are not known for having football teams. That is just out right embarrassing for the PFL.
Quote from: vu72 on February 02, 2015, 02:05:20 PMApplicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.
And someone was bashing UIC for academics?
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 02, 2015, 07:54:00 PM
Quote from: vu72 on February 02, 2015, 02:05:20 PMApplicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.
And someone was bashing UIC for academics?
i believe that "conditional enrollment" is actually called
(https://redanglespanish.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/doublesecretprobation.jpg)
Quote from: bbtds on February 02, 2015, 06:37:16 PM
It expands to 10 by inviting Morehead State, which does not sponsor football,
The PFL sure needs to get some better publicity when many members of the league are not known for having football teams. That is just out right embarrassing for the PFL.
Good point, however the blame probably does to the author for not clarifying by saying "which does not sponsor "scholarship"football.
After all, Shelvin Mack didn't know that Butler had a football team! :rotfl:
I still don't understand why it really matters if other conference members have an academic reputation of Chicago State or of MIT. I don't understand why it matters if other schools are private, or big city commuter schools. We're competing an athletics, not games of Trivia Crack. Other than the Ivy League, what mid major conference is really known for their academics? It's not like we're the SWAC or Southland and have a long history of APR violations.
Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.
Other mid-major conference known for academics: Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).
I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.
I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.
Quote from: vu84v2 on February 03, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.
Other mid-major conference known for academics: Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).
I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.
I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.
But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.
Quote from: a3uge on February 03, 2015, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on February 03, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.
Other mid-major conference known for academics: Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).
I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.
I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.
But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.
I think it does matter for a few reasons. First, is "value by association" (my term!) By this I mean that when a student or parent asks "who is in your conference?" It makes a difference when you tell them you play in the PFL against the likes of Davidson, Butler, Drake, USD or Marist vs. saying you play against the YSU's, or even worse, Chicago States of the world. There is a reason the Ivy or Patriot leagues have the members they have. Alumni are much more inclined to want to brag to their friends in the office that the Butler game or Drake game or Bradley game, is coming versus the Chicago State game.
Playing team where great rivalries can develop has great appeal to fans and generous alumni. We will never have a meaningful rivalry with, say, Cleveland State or YSU. Sure, some games will be of greater interest because of standings but that isn't what I'm discussing here. Games against similar type schools--academically and athletically, build those sort of historical events.
Finally, it is a matter of academic similarities when it comes to recruiting. YSU can attract and accept a kid who can jump out of the gym but also struggles academically. As a result it becomes more difficult to compete. Again, historically we have had our way with YSU on the basketball court, but think about football. How many of their players would be accepted into Valpo? I don't know the answer but I can guess. That is why similar schools are in certain conferences. That is why we are a good fit for the PFL and not so much for the Horizon, now that Butler and Loyola have left. We lost two very selective private schools and added one commuter school
Quote from: vu72 on February 03, 2015, 03:22:01 PM
Quote from: a3uge on February 03, 2015, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: vu84v2 on February 03, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.
Other mid-major conference known for academics: Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).
I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.
I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.
But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.
I think it does matter for a few reasons. First, is "value by association" (my term!) By this I mean that when a student or parent asks "who is in your conference?" It makes a difference when you tell them you play in the PFL against the likes of Davidson, Butler, Drake, USD or Marist vs. saying you play against the YSU's, or even worse, Chicago States of the world. There is a reason the Ivy or Patriot leagues have the members they have. Alumni are much more inclined to want to brag to their friends in the office that the Butler game or Drake game or Bradley game, is coming versus the Chicago State game.
Playing team where great rivalries can develop has great appeal to fans and generous alumni. We will never have a meaningful rivalry with, say, Cleveland State or YSU. Sure, some games will be of greater interest because of standings but that isn't what I'm discussing here. Games against similar type schools--academically and athletically, build those sort of historical events.
Finally, it is a matter of academic similarities when it comes to recruiting. YSU can attract and accept a kid who can jump out of the gym but also struggles academically. As a result it becomes more difficult to compete. Again, historically we have had our way with YSU on the basketball court, but think about football. How many of their players would be accepted into Valpo? I don't know the answer but I can guess. That is why similar schools are in certain conferences. That is why we are a good fit for the PFL and not so much for the Horizon, now that Butler and Loyola have left. We lost two very selective private schools and added one commuter school
Addressing each point:
1. If I told my mom we were playing Bradley University she would give me the same blank stare as if I told her we were playing Cleveland State University. If we were playing an OOC game vs Holy Cross, my coworkers would stare at me as blankly as if I told them we were playing Wright State. I don't have a single friend or family member that judges the academic reputation of Valpo on the academic credentials of their college basketball opponents.
2. This has more to do with athletic success than academics. Wichita State, Murray State, and VCU all aren't great academically but still have a good following. Lehigh, Wofford, and Boston U all have great academics, but they all average below 1,500 people a game.
3. If there was a recruiting disadvantage, wouldn't we be struggling with recruits? We've had as good of recruiting classes as any in the league. If anything, being the only religious University actually puts us at an advantage - recruits like Peters are very religious and were drawn to the small private school community. Does Oakland really have a better recruiting advantage than Butler did? That doesn't make any sense.
"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."
Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).
IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years?????
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 03, 2015, 04:31:35 PM
"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."
Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).
IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years?????
Depends on how desperate the MVC becomes after they lose several schools. The HL went against it's bylaws and took Oakland despite their gym not sitting 5,000.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 03, 2015, 04:54:53 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on February 03, 2015, 04:31:35 PM
"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."
Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).
IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years?????
Depends on how desperate the MVC becomes after they lose several schools. The HL went against it's bylaws and took Oakland despite their gym not sitting 5,000.
I don't see the BOD making any moves for athletic facilities (improvements or new) by speeding up the process just because a new conference wants Valpo and demands facility upgrades in a certain amount of time. The BOD would say they are extremely happy with the HL and decline the invite from the MVC. They would come up with some excuses about geographical fit and better academic standing in the HL.
Quote from: oklahomamick on February 02, 2015, 07:54:00 PM
Quote from: vu72 on February 02, 2015, 02:05:20 PMApplicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.
And someone was bashing UIC for academics?
Good lord, I was not bashing UIC. All I did was give a counter to a UIC fan's assertion that UIC was the best academic school in the HL. There is a major difference between bashing a school, and just arguing that Valpo has a better reputation nationally in regards to academics!!
true, I should have used another word than bashing. And I agreed with your assessment on all of it.
The bash was by valporun who said that UIC is a hard sell because of location and academics...unless he meant that as a compliment referring to our higher academic standards. When I questioned that, you came on and said my academic question had an obvious answer...and I still disagree. UIC has a very good engineering program and a very good medical program, including pharmacy, nursing, etc. Many other programs are nationally competitive and, btw, research from about a decade ago showed that UIC was the only "name" school in IL to not have suffered from tremendous grade inflation...people work hard for their grades at UIC...the academics are tough. We don't just put people on the honor roll like other schools. The average grade at UIC is a C...as it should be. Also, usnews rankings take into account grad rates, alumni giving rates, and other things that favor non-commuter, private schools. They place in the rankings itself doesn't tell the whole story.
Valpo and UIC are different types of schools...you can't say that Valpo has a better reputation, and I can't say the opposite (note that I never did in that previous conversation...I simply asked which HL school has a better reputation and also for someone to back it up). What is Valpo so well known for? Someone else mentioned that phd/research schools aren't necessarily good academic schools...but nobody can deny the value of teaching someone research...everyone has benefitted from big time research, whether it be medical, technogical, or whatever.
Graduating from college is a great achievement. I am a very proud VU alumnus who tried to get my 3 children to go to VU. None of them did because they found other schools that fit their needs better than VU. None of them went to UIC either. Does that make these schools bad? No, it just means that each individual must find what fits and works best for them. All of my children went or are attending smaller schools because they believed that there are advantages to that environment. The emphasis at smaller schools is one of relationships, I believe that it is easier to thrive in that kind of atmosphere. Does that make larger schools like UIC bad? No.
You wanted to know a little bit more about VU, our reputation and what we are known for, well here is my feeble attempt at putting together a short list.
Valparaiso University consistently garners top rankings in many national publications. Student to faculty ratio is 13/1 and 87% of our faculty is fulltime. Only 4% of classes will have 50+ students.
Each year since 1990, U.S. News & World Report has listed Valparaiso University as a top-5 master's institution in the Midwest in its "America's Best Colleges" rankings.
U.S. News & World Report awarded Valpo a first-place (tied) ranking in Best Undergraduate Teaching. Valpo placed second in the magazine's Best Values in the Midwest list as well.
The College of Engineering has been named among the top 25 undergraduate-only engineering schools in the country.
Washington Monthly, which publishes its College Guide annually, ranked Valpo third out of all master's universities in the nation, as well as third on its list of colleges that contribute to the public good.
The Princeton Review's "Best 377 Colleges" includes Valpo on its "Best Midwestern Colleges" list.
Valpo regularly appears in Forbes Magazine's "America's Top Colleges" list.
The College of Business is accredited by the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business, placing it in the top five percent of MBA programs worldwide.
The College of Business is among the elite 25% of undergraduate business programs nationally accredited by AACSB International-The Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business.
Valpo has been named to The Best College's list of the 10 Most Innovative Colleges for Foreign Language Study, ranking among prestigious universities including Yale, Columbia, Cornell, and UCLA.
Valpo ranks second among U.S. master's degree institutions in producing winners of prestigious Fulbright awards for international study, research and study.
Valpo was named to the President's Higher Education Community Service Honor Roll for 2013, joining three other Indiana universities in achieving Honor Roll with Distinctions status.
Valpo ranks in the top 25 of Best undergraduate Engineering program accredited by ABET.
85% of pre-med students (and 100% of those from Christ College – The Honors College) are admitted to medical school.
Interesting read on the HL blog. It's fun to read what other fans think of HL conference changes and even valpo.
http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/742/next-leave-hl (http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/742/next-leave-hl)
If LeCrone doesn't do something another team will leave the HL and soon, I can see us getting Belmont, because of the soccer. The only thing that is keeping Belmont in a weak OVC is the geography. The closest school to them is Wright State which is quite a ways away from them. They are on a geographical island in Tennessee and the cost of travel would be very high since they'd have to fly to Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana and many occasions or take 8-10 hour bus-rides on a regular basis.
I wouldn't mind us expanding into Pennsylvania, pick up some Pittsburgh schools, like Robert Morris or Duquesne. Geographically IPFW or IUPUI make the most sense. Honestly IPFW wouldn't be too bad their program seems to be on the rise and can help build a rivalry between Northwest and Northeast Indiana.
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If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball.
In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.
Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.
Quote from: classof2014 on February 10, 2015, 10:37:55 AM
If LeCrone doesn't do something another team will leave the HL and soon, I can see us getting Belmont, because of the soccer. The only thing that is keeping Belmont in a weak OVC is the geography. The closest school to them is Wright State which is quite a ways away from them. They are on a geographical island in Tennessee and the cost of travel would be very high since they'd have to fly to Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana and many occasions or take 8-10 hour bus-rides on a regular basis.
I wouldn't mind us expanding into Pennsylvania, pick up some Pittsburgh schools, like Robert Morris or Duquesne. Geographically IPFW or IUPUI make the most sense. Honestly IPFW wouldn't be too bad their program seems to be on the rise and can help build a rivalry between Northwest and Northeast Indiana.
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If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball.
In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.
Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.
Not so sure about "soon." If VU is the leading candidate to leave the HL, then the HL actually should be stable for a while, IMO. What conferences are "available" for us? Valpo falls on the geographic fringe of the A-10 and the MVC has no reason at all to move beyond 10. Realignment won't heat up again particularly if the NCAA allows conferences to hold football championship games with less than 12 members. Unless the Big East moves to 12, UAB is kicked out of C-USA, the Sun Belt moves to 12, or P-5 conferences are able to add teams for gazillions of TV contract dollars, I don't know where this immediate movement is going to come from which would tear VU (or any school for that matter) away from the HL soon, IMO. WAC football is dead and buried, so there's no chance of a mass FCS to FBS exodus either.
If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball.
In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.
Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.
[/quote]
Google Maps tells me it is five hours from Valpo to Evansville (give or take a few minutes) That amount of driving will get you to every school currently in the HL except for YSU, which is five and a half hours from campus. That's not even considering how long it would take to get to Drake, Wichita State or Missouri State.
So geographically, a move to the MVC would kind of make sense. But only sort of.
Quote from: mgovalpo on February 25, 2015, 04:05:54 PM
If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball.
In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.
Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.
Google Maps tells me it is five hours from Valpo to Evansville (give or take a few minutes) That amount of driving will get you to every school currently in the HL except for YSU, which is five and a half hours from campus. That's not even considering how long it would take to get to Drake, Wichita State or Missouri State.
So geographically, a move to the MVC would kind of make sense. But only sort of.
[/quote]
We'd fly to Wichita. The money would come easily from a better tv contract, better attendance and better alumni support. It is only about 6 hours to Drake.
I think we can go a long way by dropping YSU. That's enough of a boost right there.
From the Detroit board:
The Horizon League ADs met all week to discuss league business including expansion. Maybe we will hear something this off-season!
It would be really great to hear that Belmont is joining ;)
I have a feeling it will be something most of us didn't want to hear such as IPFW, IUPUI or NKU joining the HL.
From what I have heard, I am pretty sure Belmont is not in the mix and I know for sure it is not IPFW.
As long as it is not another directional or acronym school, I won't complain as much. Heck, bring in ORU!
With March Madness ending this weekend and the Horizon League folks attending the Final Four in Indianapolis, this is probably the time for the topic of expansion to pick up, especially since a final decision will need to be made in the next month or two in order to begin scheduling for next season.
LeCrone hinted in his news conference at the league tourney that a move would probably occur soon. My guess, and nothing more, is that Northern Kentucky would likely be the 10th member of the HL. They have ties to the Horizon League, they have good facilities, they are finishing their probationary period as a D-I school and will be able to compete for a championship, they provide a team in the Cincy area, and they are a good travel partner for Wright State. The league's travel partners would be the following: Green Bay / Milwaukee, UIC / Valpo, Oakland / Detroit, Cleveland St / Youngstown St, Wright St / Northern Kentucky.
I believe a future expansion to 12 teams would be desirable, but not likely this year. Among the teams under consideration, Murray St and Belmont would be the most appreciated. For various reasons (including football), I find it hard to believe Murray St would make the move, but I could see Belmont considering the jump to the Horizon League in the future. In fact, I believe they would be a good fit for the Horizon League.
If Belmont someday could be convinced, they would need a travel partner. Possible options: Murray St, Evansville, IUPUI. As I mentioned, I don't see Murray St making the move, though I would welcome them. Evansville should be in the Horizon League, but it would take some persuasion to get them to leave the MVC, and I'm not sure they would want to do so. IUPUI would not be as welcomed by many current HL fans, but they do have a number of factors in their favor: facilities, Indy Market and the HL headquarters, and a new coach that has been doing an excellent job of recruiting (today added a Syracuse transfer) and building a stronger team.
So, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!
Belmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay. The travel budgets for many teams would increase significantly...and money is tight right now. For example...teams that usually travel home right after a Saturday night game may have to stay another night, simply because their bus driver can not legally be on the road long enough to get them home. That's not cheap.
The HL should be looking within - or very close to - the current league footprint for team #10. If further expansion were occur, then it would be a far stronger argument to look outside the league footprint, as long as you were adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners.
Using the Northern Kentucky idea...
Milwaukee/Green Bay
UIC/Valpo
NKU/WSU
Oakland/Detroit
CSU/YSU
That's very nice for travel, and it would get basketball schedules (especially the women) back to a "normal" routine. Thursday-Saturday in normal weeks, Friday-Sunday when TV requires. This is better for the teams, the coaches, the players, and most of all, the academics.
Quote from: valpopal on April 05, 2015, 01:08:43 PM
With March Madness ending this weekend and the Horizon League folks attending the Final Four in Indianapolis, this is probably the time for the topic of expansion to pick up, especially since a final decision will need to be made in the next month or two in order to begin scheduling for next season.
LeCrone hinted in his news conference at the league tourney that a move would probably occur soon. My guess, and nothing more, is that Northern Kentucky would likely be the 10th member of the HL. They have ties to the Horizon League, they have good facilities, they are finishing their probationary period as a D-I school and will be able to compete for a championship, they provide a team in the Cincy area, and they are a good travel partner for Wright State. The league's travel partners would be the following: Green Bay / Milwaukee, UIC / Valpo, Oakland / Detroit, Cleveland St / Youngstown St, Wright St / Northern Kentucky.
I believe a future expansion to 12 teams would be desirable, but not likely this year. Among the teams under consideration, Murray St and Belmont would be the most appreciated. For various reasons (including football), I find it hard to believe Murray St would make the move, but I could see Belmont considering the jump to the Horizon League in the future. In fact, I believe they would be a good fit for the Horizon League.
If Belmont someday could be convinced, they would need a travel partner. Possible options: Murray St, Evansville, IUPUI. As I mentioned, I don't see Murray St making the move, though I would welcome them. Evansville should be in the Horizon League, but it would take some persuasion to get them to leave the MVC, and I'm not sure they would want to do so. IUPUI would not be as welcomed by many current HL fans, but they do have a number of factors in their favor: facilities, Indy Market and the HL headquarters, and a new coach that has been doing an excellent job of recruiting (today added a Syracuse transfer) and building a stronger team.
So, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!
Quote from: ValpoHoops on April 05, 2015, 06:05:51 PMBelmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay.
Travel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal. Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports. Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel. Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.
Quote from: vu72 on April 05, 2015, 07:54:10 PMTravel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal. Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports. Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel. Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.
Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on April 05, 2015, 06:05:51 PM
Belmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay. The travel budgets for many teams would increase significantly...and money is tight right now. For example...teams that usually travel home right after a Saturday night game may have to stay another night, simply because their bus driver can not legally be on the road long enough to get them home. That's not cheap.
The HL should be looking within - or very close to - the current league footprint for team #10. If further expansion were occur, then it would be a far stronger argument to look outside the league footprint, as long as you were adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners.
Using the Northern Kentucky idea...
Milwaukee/Green Bay
UIC/Valpo
NKU/WSU
Oakland/Detroit
CSU/YSU
That's very nice for travel, and it would get basketball schedules (especially the women) back to a "normal" routine. Thursday-Saturday in normal weeks, Friday-Sunday when TV requires. This is better for the teams, the coaches, the players, and most of all, the academics.
Speaking of "adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners": if we cannot add Murray State with Belmont, an out-of-the-box suggestion would be to bring in Belmont and Lipscomb as the 11th & 12th teams to go with the line-up above: both are private religious universities who are rivals in the same city of Nashville. There would be a problem with having two HL members so close, but we see it working for Oakland and Detroit, and we have had UIC and Loyola in the conference together. This would help with travel costs since one trip would serve for playing two teams. There are other considerations to be discussed with this idea, but it is worth a conversation.
There's some chatter about UAB and Valpo joining the MVC. Have no idea if there's anything to it or just pure speculation.
It seems strange that when we talk about the logistical problems with Belmont joining the HL we are forgetting that Belmont is already an associate member of the HL in men's soccer and those issues don't seem to be too much of a problem. Someone should talk to the coaches of the men's soccer teams to see how visiting Nashville once every two years works out for them. Probably not much different than most of the OOC soccer matches they play every year before the conference season gets started.
Northern Kentucky today has named a new basketball head coach, John Brannen, an Alabama assistant who also was named as the Tide's interim head coach for this year's NIT. This is a good addition for NKU, which will be eligible for postseason play in 2016-2017. This also takes care of a needed step before possible addition of NKU to Horizon League, if that is the plan.
Quote from: ValpoHoops on April 06, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 05, 2015, 07:54:10 PMTravel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal. Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports. Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel. Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.
Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.
Wait a minute. Are you telling me schools like Butler and Creighton care more about the big pay day then their student athletes and all those missed classes? Say it isn't so! :o
Quote from: vu72 on April 06, 2015, 06:51:38 PM
Quote from: ValpoHoops on April 06, 2015, 08:35:48 AM
Quote from: vu72 on April 05, 2015, 07:54:10 PMTravel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal. Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports. Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel. Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.
Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.
One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.
Wait a minute. Are you telling me schools like Butler and Creighton care more about the big pay day then their student athletes and all those missed classes? Say it isn't so! :o
Well in theory that extra income could be used to charter flights to those conference schools that are further away, which should reduce the amount of class time missed per road trip. However, I'm not sure if there's any way of knowing if this money actually gets used like that
we fly private charter at least once this year that I know of....don't think that Belmont is that significant of travel $$$ issue but agree lost class time is a concern.
Quote from: wh on April 06, 2015, 02:35:21 PM
There's some chatter about UAB and Valpo joining the MVC. Have no idea if there's anything to it or just pure speculation.
I'd take it! It would be great for me, since I would get to see Valpo baseball every other year, since Dallas Baptist is an Associate Member in that sport!
Quote from: wh on April 06, 2015, 02:35:21 PMUAB and Valpo joining the MVC
Very interesting article that will probably fuel the fire of the "we need a conference that aligns us with similar schools" crowd. Conference Realignment and the Big East, Wichita State, UAB and MVC (http://frankthetank.me/2015/03/25/uptown-dunk-basketball-conference-realignment-and-the-big-east-wichita-state-uab-mvc-and-down-the-line/)
If the Horizon League does pick up Northern Kentucky that just makes me want out of the Horizon League even more. Valpo is not a state commuter school, while just about all the others are. I do hope that the rumors of UAB and Valpo to the MVC have some truth to them and aren't just a thought bubble out in cyber space.
Commuter State Schools
Cleveland State
Green Bay
Milwaukee
Oakland
Wright State
Youngstown State
???Northern Kentucky???
Privates
Detroit
Valparaiso
Yes, the cost of travel would be more if we were in the MVC but we still fit geographically in the MVC, there are two other Indiana schools, and four Illinois schools, and two schools in Iowa. Really the only two schools that are a ways away are Missouri State and Wichita State.
The state to private ratio is also much better, much more like the Horizon League a few years ago when both Butler and Loyola were in the league.
State Schools
Indiana State
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Wichita State
???UAB???
Privates
Loyola
Evansville
Bradley
Drake
???Valparaiso???
Currently there are 6 state and 4 private, add UAB and Valpo there are 7 and 5. Which is much more similar to the HL of a few years ago, when it was 6 state and 4 private, which is now 7 and two and a good chance will be 8 to 2 in a few years.
If Valpo wants to compete for an at-large bid every year they need to get out of the HL, to me the HL is going in a different direction, which is fine, but the direction isn't the right way for Valpo. Valpo has the possibility of being a top-25 caliber team next season. Being in the MVC would help our chances by playing better teams on a nightly basis.
Sadly, the chances of playing Northern Kentucky twice next year compared to MVC teams twice next season are much higher but the MVC picking up two teams is a real possibility and Valpo and UAB do make sense, Valpo more-so than UAB in my mind.
Let's say for the sake of argument that Eastern Kentucky moves to the Sun Belt because C-USA needs to fill the void left behind by UAB football. UAB does not revive football and moves to the MVC. The MVC stays at 11. In response to EKU's move, the OVC offers Valpo, Wright State and one of Cleveland State/Detroit/YSU to get to 14 so that it can create two seven team divisions. Would anyone here be in favor of that move, or would you rather stay in a more compact ten team HL with NKU as team #10 and the potential for a twelve team expansion down the road?
I would rather stay in HL than your proposed OVC. We have been in a weak conference before and made it to the dance several consecutive years. Why not do it again? Once we regularly win the HL (not just 3 out of 4 seasons) but like we did in the Mid-Con, then we should knock on MVC door.
Let's enjoy all the dancing. Unless we get knocked out of conference tourney and rpi is dragged down by commuter schools...
The OVC is terrible. No.
You can win every regular season game and not get an at-large. A team that runs the table in the horizon would be at-large worthy.
We won't get invited to the OVC. They are a football first conference.
The OVC sucks outside of Murray State and Belmont. Every other school has a mid-200 to 300 RPI!
Quote from: a3uge on April 07, 2015, 10:39:32 AM
You can win every regular season game and not get an at-large. A team that runs the table in the horizon would be at-large worthy.
No matter how good you are it's incredibly difficult to run the table. Undefeated teams have a giant target on their backs, just look at Kentucky. When you go on the road you'll play in packed houses and teams will prepare and play their best. Chances are if we have a strong OOC and lose one or two games in the HL we'll have a shot at an at-large.
Our chances go up drastically year-in, year-out if we're in a stronger conference. Getting two games with recognizable programs helps. Splitting games with UNIs and Wichita State's when they're having good years looks really nice.
I would hate to see Valpo not make it to the tourney because we had an off night in the tournament. That's a lot less likely to happen in a stronger conference that has consistently been a 2-3 bid conference, like the MVC (with Creighton).
Quote from: Kyle321n on April 07, 2015, 10:49:07 AM
We won't get invited to the OVC. They are a football first conference.
Can't agree--if true, Belmont and SIU-E wouldn't have gotten a sniff from them.
So the general consensus is that this league:
Green Bay
Milwaukee
UIC
Valpo
Detroit
Oakland
Cleveland State
Youngstown State
Wright State
Northern Kentucky
Would be better than this league:
East
Valpo
Eastern Illinois
SIU-E
SE Missouri State
UT-Martin
Murray State
Austin Peay
West
Cleveland State
Wright State
Morehead State
Jacksonville State
Tennessee State
Belmont
Tennessee Tech
The hypothetical OVC above gets us in with Belmont and Murray, provides the same amount of privates as the current HL, and is potentially more geographically compact because of a divisional alignment than our current situation. And still our current situation is better as viewed by the responses. And, with the NKU add, we creep our footprint more southern so as to potentially entice Belmont for all sports, while still maintaining the potential for an at large--which is something that has been argued that the above OVC can't offer.
I guess I'm just trying to figure out why there is so much trepidation for NKU as team #10 on this board given all of this.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 07, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Quote from: Kyle321n on April 07, 2015, 10:49:07 AM
We won't get invited to the OVC. They are a football first conference.
Can't agree--if true, Belmont and SIU-E wouldn't have gotten a sniff from them.
So the general consensus is that this league:
Green Bay
Milwaukee
UIC
Valpo
Detroit
Oakland
Cleveland State
Youngstown State
Wright State
Northern Kentucky
Would be better than this league:
East
Valpo
Eastern Illinois
SIU-E
SE Missouri State
UT-Martin
Murray State
Austin Peay
West
Cleveland State
Wright State
Morehead State
Jacksonville State
Tennessee State
Belmont
Tennessee Tech
The hypothetical OVC above gets us in with Belmont and Murray, provides the same amount of privates as the current HL, and is potentially more geographically compact because of a divisional alignment than our current situation. And still our current situation is better as viewed by the responses. And, with the NKU add, we creep our footprint more southern so as to potentially entice Belmont for all sports, while still maintaining the potential for an at large--which is something that has been argued that the above OVC can't offer.
I guess I'm just trying to figure out why there is so much trepidation for NKU as team #10 on this board given all of this.
The OVC is terrible.
QuoteThe OVC is terrible.
Translation: There are worse things for Valpo conference-wise than an NKU add.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 07, 2015, 12:13:07 PMTranslation: There are worse things for Valpo conference-wise than an NKU add.
Yeah we could join a compact geographic conference with other private schools that consistently is a 2 bid league. Then that league could lose members and change competitiveness completely. Oh wait, that's happened.
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 07, 2015, 12:32:01 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 07, 2015, 12:13:07 PMTranslation: There are worse things for Valpo conference-wise than an NKU add.
Yeah we could join a compact geographic conference with other private schools that consistently is a 2 bid league. Then that league could lose members and change competitiveness completely. Oh wait, that's happened.
We can't join a two bid league if we aren't invited to a two bid league.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on April 07, 2015, 12:13:07 PM
QuoteThe OVC is terrible.
Translation: There are worse things for Valpo conference-wise than an NKU add.
Translation: The OVC is terrible.
No to NKU, IUPUI and IPFW. No to OVC.
Yes to Belmont and UAB joining HL. Travel partners as Nashville to B-ham is 3 hours south on 65. Both schools have great hoops traditions. If we are staying in HL. Also like the idea of Lipscomb.
Would move to MVC as that provides opportunities for at-large and geographic rivalries even if you stumble a couple times on the road or in the tourney.
Selfishly, I would hate to see Valpo join the MVC as I would miss Kampe.
:troll:
Quote from: Kyle321n on April 07, 2015, 10:49:07 AM
We won't get invited to the OVC. They are a football first conference.
Morehead State is in both the OVC and PFL. Why wouldn't it be acceptable for Valpo to have football in the PFL also? Not that I'm advocating Valpo to the OVC. I agree it is not a step up for Valpo to leave the HL for the OVC. But I don't understand why the OVC can accept Morehead and object to Valpo.
Quote from: bbtds on April 07, 2015, 06:10:51 PMBut I don't understand why the OVC can accept Morehead and object to Valpo
Morehead State was a founding member of the OVC which means they have been in the league for over 60 years. They played over a half century of football in the conference before dropping down to non- scholarship.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 07, 2015, 06:06:06 PM
Selfishly, I would hate to see Valpo join the MVC as I would miss Kampe.
:troll:
I think most of the drumbeat for the MVC comes from some of the same people who will miss Brian Wardle the most . I mean with him at Bradley what in the world will we have to talk about? Boring :snore:
Could you imagine what the HL would do if they had to replace valpo?
What a funny turn of events, that the HL would be worse off without Valpo, after basically shunning us in 1993-1994.
Does someone have physical proof that Stl is not Kampe? Oakland can do no wrong in his world :)
Quote from: valpopal on April 05, 2015, 01:08:43 PMSo, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!
Quote from: valpopal on April 06, 2015, 06:05:42 PMNorthern Kentucky today has named a new basketball head coach, John Brannen, an Alabama assistant who also was named as the Tide's interim head coach for this year's NIT. This is a good addition for NKU, which will be eligible for postseason play in 2016-2017. This also takes care of a needed step before possible addition of NKU to Horizon League, if that is the plan.
The more I look at NKU the better it feels.
New coach, new and spacious facilities, 7 miles from downtown Cincinnati and logistically a near perfect HL fit. From their standpoint travel should be 3 times easier in the HL than for the A-Sun. Ok we know the downside. Public commuter school with no history of D-1 success (because of no D-1 history).
We all know there are no perfect fits but the risk-reward for them as a HL addition look to be compelling. If they come aboard we may have no need of an 11th and 12 team unless something falls into our lap that we can not refuse. For mens basketball Oakland was a solid addition and NKU could work out even better.
Some information FWIW: NKU
5th of 8 in the A-Sun in 2015
W-L Record
2013 - 11-16
2014 - 9-21
2015 - 13-17
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2015, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: valpopal on April 05, 2015, 01:08:43 PMSo, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!
Quote from: valpopal on April 06, 2015, 06:05:42 PMNorthern Kentucky today has named a new basketball head coach, John Brannen, an Alabama assistant who also was named as the Tide's interim head coach for this year's NIT. This is a good addition for NKU, which will be eligible for postseason play in 2016-2017. This also takes care of a needed step before possible addition of NKU to Horizon League, if that is the plan.
The more I look at NKU the better it feels.
New coach, new and spacious facilities, 7 miles from downtown Cincinnati and logistically a near perfect HL fit. From their standpoint travel should be 3 times easier in the HL than for the A-Sun. Ok we know the downside. Public commuter school with no history of D-1 success (because of no D-1 history).
We all know there are no perfect fits but the risk-reward for them as a HL addition look to be compelling. If they come aboard we may have no need of an 11th and 12 team unless something falls into our lap that we can not refuse. For mens basketball Oakland was a solid addition and NKU could work out even better.
Another important point that may or may not have been mentioned, I don't remember, NKU does have a baseball team. That was one of the sports that could potentially lose it's NCAA auto-bid if YSU was forced out or one of the other baseball schools left the conference.
Quote from: valpotx on April 08, 2015, 01:09:20 AMDoes someone have physical proof that Stl is not Kampe? Oakland can do no wrong in his world :)
Didn't say that. 8-)
Quote from: oklahomamick on April 07, 2015, 09:46:07 PM
Could you imagine what the HL would do if they had to replace valpo?
I don't think it would be that big of a deal:
West
NDSU
SDSU
USD
UNO
UMKC
UWGB
UWM
East
WIU
UIC
DET
OU
CSU
YSU
WSU
or just stay at nine with an NKU add, or move to a ten team league with an ORU/NKU add, or move to a ten team league with a NKU and Drexel/Robert Morris add. We're replaceable, IMO, as is every team in this league.
Fortunately, Valpo is not going anywhere and has no chance of going anywhere, unless the MVC moves to 12 and then we might have a small opening, so none of this is likely.
No doubt, everyone is replaceable. However, would that finally put enough pressure for the presidents fire LeCrone? After the Big 12 lost so many schools, they finally pulled the plug on the commissioner. LeCrone would lose Butler, Loyola and Valpo. That should be enough for him to lose his seat.
The solution to the HL if they lost another big player is a merger between the summit and HL. >:(
Quote from: justducky on April 08, 2015, 05:09:30 PMThe more I look at NKU the better it feels.
New coach, new and spacious facilities, 7 miles from downtown Cincinnati and logistically a near perfect HL fit. From their standpoint travel should be 3 times easier in the HL than for the A-Sun. Ok we know the downside. Public commuter school with no history of D-1 success (because of no D-1 history).
We all know there are no perfect fits but the risk-reward for them as a HL addition look to be compelling. If they come aboard we may have no need of an 11th and 12 team unless something falls into our lap that we can not refuse. For mens basketball Oakland was a solid addition and NKU could work out even better.
Just don't see it. The main reason in my opinion to add a team is to enhance the possibility of making the HL a 2 bid league. I am not interested in waiting 5-10 years for NKU to develop a consistent winning pedigree. We need someone that meets that requirement NOW. LeCrone needs to pick up the pace in this area and also minimum scheduling requirements, the two things that affect the number of bids and also seeding.
Quote from: FWalum on April 08, 2015, 11:02:49 PMJust don't see it. The main reason in my opinion to add a team is to enhance the possibility of making the HL a 2 bid league. I am not interested in waiting 5-10 years for NKU to develop a consistent winning pedigree. We need someone that meets that requirement NOW. LeCrone needs to pick up the pace in this area and also minimum scheduling requirements, the two things that affect the number of bids and also seeding.
Finding one team that can meet that requirement NOW looks to be a hopeless pursuit but I just came up with another hair brained scheme that might be worthy of further discussion.
Imagine a 12 team conference with floating memberships for the two six team divisions. Say that early in August of each year all the powers, experts, coaches and AD's meet for the purpose of determining the top 6 teams (who will play home and away that year as a division for an each team total of 10 games). The bottom 6 teams would then be assigned to the other division and would also play each other twice. The members of each division would also play one game against their opposite division counterparts with the league determining which of these games will be home vs road. So 16 total conference games but an improved SOS (for the top group) by more push from the strong and less drag from the weak. Would this help the top RPIs enough to make at large bids the norm rather than the exception? Yes I know it would largely depend on the 3 teams that were added but? Also every year could require different travel partners, new scheduling nightmares, and the arguments for division assignment could be intense. But?
I have been onboard for the league imposed minimum scheduling requirements for some time and I suspect that the HL might be so late getting to this table that most of the best seats have already been taken but there may still be many benefits from this for the long term.
Quote from: justducky on April 09, 2015, 02:27:17 AMImagine a 12 team conference with floating memberships for the two six team divisions. Say that early in August of each year all the powers, experts, coaches and AD's meet for the purpose of determining the top 6 teams (who will play home and away that year as a division for an each team total of 10 games). The bottom 6 teams would then be assigned to the other division and would also play each other twice. The members of each division would also play one game against their opposite division counterparts with the league determining which of these games will be home vs road. So 16 total conference games but an improved SOS (for the top group) by more push from the strong and less drag from the weak. Would this help the top RPIs enough to make at large bids the norm rather than the exception? Yes I know it would largely depend on the 3 teams that were added but? Also every year could require different travel partners, new scheduling nightmares, and the arguments for division assignment could be intense. But?
I threw out this idea a month ago and this topic has been viewed about 750 times since then but as of yet without any comments.
With NKU now in could the addition of 2 more quality HL members make my thinking something that might be workable? ???
The way this expansion and "neutral tourney" site things have been handled by the HL office is just more evidence that League members should be calling for LeCrone's departure. I'm not sure he could handle the Summit League. The way he performs his duties tells me he is more qualified to be a member of the NCAA staff instead of the HL. Did I say that?