I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even the A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.
I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.
If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?
Quote from: Chuck A on May 24, 2015, 11:56:10 AM
I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZonethe (http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZonethe) A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.
I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.
If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?
I'll bite. When we joined the Horizon we had a natural and very long standing rivilry with Butler who we beat the last four times we have played them. We were in a conference with four privates and six publics. Now we are down to two privates. We may be competing for the same athletes but not the same students as much of the league.
You are obviously correct about out lack of success in the NCAAs. You also should have noticed that we no longer are getting drilled by bigs when we do get there. Last two included a loss by 11 to Michigan State and a loss by 3 to Maryland. We have our whole team back. The move to the Valley would help with TV coverage, higher profile games, much better scheduling and the prospects of, if we did get back to the NCAAs, a seeding which would actually give us a chance to win some games.
Take a look at the Horizon: You understand where UIC has been and I certainly hope you are correct about a new direction. Green Bay may be OK but they lose Sykes and another starter and face rebuilding to get used to a new system. Milwaukee lost the opportunity to get to the Tourney via academic issues, Detroit is a mess with a really bad coach. CSU is losing player after player to the graduation rule, NKU still has a year of probation, who knows about WSU. Oakland looks to be pretty good but then again, there is YSU.
Bottom line: The Horizon in all likelihood will end up with a worse RPI then last year. If we win it again (now more difficult with no home court advantage) we will, once again, be staring at a 13 seed and difficulty getting that win you asked about.
Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU. I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.
Quote from: Chuck A on May 24, 2015, 11:56:10 AM
I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even the A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.
I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.
If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?
I was right there with you until those last two paragraphs. "If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season..." - that's probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Quote from: valpo64 on May 24, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU. I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.
Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing? Ridiculous.
Quote from: a3uge on May 24, 2015, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 24, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU. I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.
? Ridiculous.Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing
Perhaps in the shorter run you are correct. But taking a longer view, Loyola was a much stronger member. Historically Loyola won a National Championship in the 60's and held a much better academic name recognition them Oakland, basically a higher end commuter school just emerging from D2 status.
You can't pick the strongest addition to match it with the crappiest team to leave.
The HL replaced Butler with Oakland and replaced Loyola with NKU. A step down on two occasions.
Especially when you consider Loyola was investing into their facilities. I don't know if any other HL schools will have that type of commitment.
Quote from: vu72 on May 24, 2015, 08:58:23 PM
Quote from: a3uge on May 24, 2015, 08:05:22 PM
Quote from: valpo64 on May 24, 2015, 04:11:53 PM
Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU. I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.
? Ridiculous.Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing
Perhaps in the shorter run you are correct. But taking a longer view, Loyola was a much stronger member. Historically Loyola won a National Championship in the 60's and held a much better academic name recognition them Oakland, basically a higher end commuter school just emerging from D2 status.
Loyola's Horizon League history is absolutely abysmal. Compare them to Oakland and they're significantly worse. Who cares about their academics in an athletics conference when their athletics are terrible. Really doesn't make sense.
Quote from: elephtheria47 on May 24, 2015, 09:04:39 PM
You can't pick the strongest addition to match it with the crappiest team to leave.
The HL replaced Butler with Oakland and replaced Loyola with NKU. A step down on two occasions.
Especially when you consider Loyola was investing into their facilities. I don't know if any other HL schools will have that type of commitment.
Their upgrade of the Gentile Center has netted them 0 top 100 RPI finishes in the past 5 years. Again, really terrible program.
You guys act like there's 20 private D1 universities in the Midwest that are waiting to get into the Horizon. There just aren't any, so complaining about not being able to replace Butler is ignorant.
Quote from: vu72 on May 24, 2015, 02:40:36 PMThe Horizon in all likelihood will end up with a worse RPI then last year.
I never thought the HL would drop this far but trends once established tend to continue and the explanations for their continuation only become obvious over time. I would say the HL is close to its bottom but some kind of unanimous consensus for change may be required.
Quote from: vu72 on May 24, 2015, 02:40:36 PMIf we win it again (now more difficult with no home court advantage) we will, once again, be staring at a 13 seed and difficulty getting that win you asked about.
For Chucks benefit- I do not think 72 would have made this point in quite this fashion had he been debating one of us. 72 knows we can do better with seeding but for simplicity sake he chose worst case over dramatization. Still the Horizon will continue to be a seeding liability for any of its NCAA tournament representatives until the proper course of actions are decided upon and implemented. Business as usual should not be your preferred course of action while riding in a sinking ship.
Chuck A. - Would you care to explain yourself?
Apr 2, 2013 at 8:40am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 2, 2013 at 8:40am
Here is the note I sent to Chancellor Meares:
Good morning Dr. Meares,
I am just sending an email to inform you that I and a number of people in the UIC community, especially alumni that frequent UIC message boards, find this eventuality extremely exciting. Although we are content with the Horizon League and its current membership, a possible jump to a perennial top ten, basketball-centric league would be extraordinary. Playing in a league with current Illinois schools Bradley, Illinois State and Southern Illinois will only help our University when these conference games take place as the Pavilion will be filled with alums from the schools involved. Also having a chance to play games against this year's Final Four participant Wichita State is another cause for excitement. The Valley also has good non-revenue sports and good to excellent facilities for their non-revenue sport teams as well.
Apr 2, 2013 at 3:50pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 2, 2013 at 3:50pm
I actually think our presence would really cause the other teams to ramp up their game because now we'd be in their back yard vying for the same recruits. Everybody would work harder, recruit harder and game plan better because we would be in a better league and they would be in a huge basketball Mecca and on a bigger stage, night in and night out! It works out for both parties.
Apr 4, 2013 at 2:51pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:51pm
Lately, it has been tough to read much into what PantherU says, but then again, he says he has his "sources".
What do I know?
It would be great if that was indeed the case...that we're in!
Apr 4, 2013 at 3:19pm QuotePost Options Post by GoRamblers on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:19pm
I think the best case scenario is for the MVC to pull Valpo, UIC and Loyola. I know they have balked a bit at expanding to 12 but I think it's a win for all involved (i.e. keeps the private schools in the MVC happy)
Apr 4, 2013 at 3:22pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:22pm
Yeah, all this is leaving me quite amped up!
Apr 4, 2013 at 8:10pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:10pm
I just hope we don't wake up tomorrow and it was all a dream!
Apr 5, 2013 at 11:18am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 5, 2013 at 11:18am
UIC has waited to be in a top ten conference since forever. We can wait a few more weeks to find out our fate!
Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20pm
The days can't go by fast enough for me until we get to announcement day. I really haven't been this nervous and excited about this program since we got an at-large bid in '98.
Apr 13, 2013 at 6:29am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 13, 2013 at 6:29am
Wow! This was actually reported on a legitimate tv sports report!
I don't know if I can take any more of this realignment talk! My insides are churning like crazy!
Not a problem wh. Sure when I heard the MVC was looking to expand, I was excited about the prospect of UIC joining. It has been a top 10 mid-major for years and have sent multiple teams to the Dance. But at no time, in ANY of my posts, did I ever bad mouth the Horizon League or hinted that UIC was too good for the Horizon. That's my only point. If teams want to leave, cool, but why rip the League when LeCrone can only do what he's allowed to do by the Executive Board. My post here asking the initial question was not about whether I wanted UIC to be in the Valley or not, but the bad mouthing of the HL. That's all. So there is no hypocrisy in any of my posts.
Quote from: Chuck A on May 25, 2015, 05:22:56 PMThat's all. So there is no hypocrisy in any of my posts.
I would have to agree with Chuck about there being any hypocrisy in his posts about the MVC. Many posters here have bad mouthed the HL and no where did Chuck do that.
The HL's fine to be in, but I am in the boat of several posters, in that if we are ever offered MVC membership, we need to jump on it.
I understand that you guys had such a short time with Loyola, so some of you might not be fully in on it.
Loyola has no future as a dominant program. At no point will they become a perennial NCAA tournament team. This is true whether they were to stay in the Horizon League or kept their move to the MVC. There's nothing there for them. Not unless they start cheating like crazy, which I suppose isn't out of the realm of possibility.
Outside of Youngstown State, is there any school in this conference where we can say that for sure? Milwaukee, Valpo and Detroit have all had sustained success in getting to the NCAA Tournament. Even Green Bay has, although it's 20 years in the rear view mirror.
Speaking of the rear view mirror: Loyola got to build the new athletics facilities because the grand majority of their donor base is reaching the end of their lives and a group of them got together to see if they can win before they die. It's grim but they openly talk about it. Over 85% of Loyola's fan base is over the age of 75. Once they're gone, Loyola is going to have to pull out some pretty crazy stops just to keep themselves sucking in air. Ramblermania (their board) is a shadow of what it once was because half of the regular posters have died. It's sad, but Loyola hasn't been relevant on a national stage since the 80's, and these old folks that make up the brunt of their fan base? They were students and young alumni in 1963.
Cleveland State is headed for some pretty rough Waters (heh). They still have the build-a-major, which will be used by whatever coach eventually replaces Waters. Oakland got themselves up to speed pretty quick in the Horizon, quicker than you guys. Wright State had a historic level of injuries last season - that's not happening again. You're gonna be surprised with UIC - now that they're about to become the biggest bandit program in the H-League, they could be real good in a couple short years.
I was pretty adamant from the beginning that NKU should be in our crosshairs and I'm glad we've got them. But they're still my second choice. My first choice is still Youngstown State shipping off to another conference. Perhaps the continued attrition in the CAA will cause them to come hunt for a football anchor. They do need a 10th team. I'd love for it to be YSU.
Get rid of the anchor and 16 becomes our basement. I still believe our ceiling is 8 or 9.
I did not begrudge Butler or Loyola for leaving the Horizon League, and I wouldn't be angry at you guys if Valparaiso left for the MVC. I only hope we get to go with you. While I was hunting for confirmation on NKU joining the Horizon League (still annoyed I couldn't quite get that one), I heard multiple people tell me that Belmont had rebuffed our advances - and also the MVC. It seems their President believes that Belmont does not benefit from a move up to the HL or even higher to the MVC. That's good. That leaves two openings if the MVC ever wants to head to 12. If they don't, we're :censored: out of luck. So are you guys.
I get that message boards are a good place to let out frustration. As long as they're still a good place to exchange ideas and organize and energize fan bases. Let's worry about getting the whole conference better. Let's unite to push for the subtraction of YSU. Then let's talk about a 10th school that deserves membership.
I just have to revisit this. First, Chuck, you have no idea how you would react if you were on the rise like we are, hoping to see our program go to the next level, while half of the other programs are in decline from when we joined the league. In fact I think a more fitting title would have been "I'm completely ashamed and humiliated" with an accompanying post talking about how frustrated you are that UIC has become the worst program in the HL and how badly you feel that your program is more to blame for the decline of the HL's standing and reputation than any other league member. Had you approached the topic that way, I would have been the first to console you, tell you to keep your chin up, and encourage you that your best days are ahead with a new coach.
It's all in the presentation...
I'll repost this here as I think it makes wh's point very clear:
Clearly the horizon has taken huge steps backwards and the one constant is LeCrone. I'll use Sagarin for results but I'm confident rpi or others would create the same results.
The Horizon League finished last year ranked 18th in the Sagarin's. There has been a steady decline as follows: 2013-2014: 13 2012-2013: 12 2011-2012: 12 2010-2011: 10
I next looked at the individual team rankings and then, to be fair, and to take into account rebuilding years, used an average of the last five years final rankings. Here are the results:
Valpo #107
CSU #119
GB #122
Det #144
Oak #156
WSU #170
Mil #185
YSU #213
UIC #260
There have been a total of 10 teams finishing ranked in the top 100. Valpo, 3 times, CSU 3 times, GB, twice, Detroit, once, and Oakland once.
Draw your own conclusions...
Modify message
Quote from: wh on June 10, 2015, 04:38:25 PM
I just have to revisit this. First, Chuck, you have no idea how you would react if you were on the rise like we are, hoping to see our program go to the next level, while half of the other programs are in decline from when we joined the league. In fact I think a more fitting title would have been "I'm completely ashamed and humiliated" with an accompanying post talking about how frustrated you are that UIC has become the worst program in the HL and how badly you feel that your program is more to blame for the decline of the HL's standing and reputation than any other league member. Had you approached the topic that way, I would have been the first to console you, tell you to keep your chin up, and encourage you that your best days are ahead with a new coach.
It's all in the presentation...
wh, actually I do know how I would react. The Flames have gone to 3 Dances and I was there for all 3 of them. We had great battles with Milwaukee and before that, with Green Bay when Bob Hallberg was UIC's coach and Dick Bennet was coaching Green Bay. Even then, I didn't beat up the HL. Why? There was no need. I have already stated, on the Flames' board how bad and downtrodden our program has become. Why would I bring that to the Valpo board? I just asked a simple question wh, that's all and I got answers. Thanks for the encouragement.
A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert. Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently. i don't think that is a good thing. Set some tough standards and adhere to them.
LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.
LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AMIf Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.
If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years.
Quote from: bbtds on June 11, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AMIf Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.
If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years.
The obvious choice in the Valley. Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least. We could replace that midwest presence. Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball. We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.
It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level. The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!
Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 11, 2015, 03:56:51 PM
Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.
[/b]
You may be surprised to find out that the ARC would fit in nicely with other arenas in the A-10, probably better (seating capacity wise) then the Horizon. I did a little checking and found the following: Seating Capacity: St. Bonnie= 5480 Duquesne= 4390 LaSalle= 3400 Richmond+ 7201 Fordham= 3470 St. Joseph= 4200 Davidson="nearly" 6000. Sure, there are also the Dayton's and St. Louis' of the A-10 but a remodeled ARC, or even the current version, would fit right in, and much better then playing in the commuter school's over grown empty stadiums. The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a great fit!!!!
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 11, 2015, 03:56:51 PM
Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.
I don't buy that. Here are the arena capacities of the A-10 teams (red = private):
LaSalle - Tom Gola Center -
3400St. Bonaventure - Reilly Center -
5400Davidson - Belk Arena -
5223Dayton UD Arena - 13435
Duquesne - Palumbo Center -
4406Fordham - Rose Hill Gym -
3200George Mason - EagleBank Arena - 10000
George Washington - Smith Center -
5000URI - Ryan Center - 7656
Richmond - Robins Center - 7201
St. Josephs - Hagan Arena -
4200SLU - Chaifetz Arena - 10,600
UMASS - Mullins Center - 9493
VCU - Seigel Center - 7637
Assuming the ARC is 5500 chock full,
half of the A-10 schools have venues below the ARC capacity. The average of all arenas in the A-10 now is: 6,854. If Dayton left for the Big-East it would take it's 13,435 seat arena with it. The average would then be 5894. If Valpo replaced Dayton the average would be 6287. Our other facilities (soccer/track/VB/SB/BB/S&D) are equal as well. The A-10 is a
great match for VU and it gives the A-10 a Chicago-land market. SLU seems to be ok with being the western outlier.
72, we are in accord -- you just type faster than me. And it's not a football league (though a number of them - Dayton, Davidson, Duquesne, Fordham, URI, UMass, Richmond and VCU do have programs but are members of other leagues for that)
10 of 14 schools are private and distinguished academic institutions. Even the public universities are research institutions.
A season ticket package would be tremendous -- these are classic basketball schools with solid reputations. Every conference home game would be an attractive battle. And problems scheduling OOC games would almost go away because VU would be in a conference with a great RPI.
Yay, no commuter schools! Let's do it right away. Or maybe tomorrow.
I stand corrected. The A10 would be definitely be a great step up. Also, joining the A10 may also have Bryce think twice about interviewing for bigger and better head coaching opportunities.
Valpo really needs to be open to joining a better conference like the Valley or A10. The Horizon is on the downtrend - I just cannot get excited about playing Northern Kentucky.
I thought the same thing. Instead of him moving up to, say, an A-10 school, WE move Bryce and his team to the A-10.
The increased presence that the A-10 would bring to home games would be a great lure for Chicago and NW Indiana BB recruits -- Mom and Dad would see their son play against some great programs right in their back yard. And the travel schedule to places like NYC, Philly, and the DC area would also be enticing.
Valpo is a recognized leading regional university. Bigger picture -- wouldn't this thrust Valpo into the National University discussion? No doubt that we would benefit in many ways from such a move. But the A-10 would also do well by this. We support 19 sports. We have a solid academic reputation, we are private, we are BB-centric. I see this similar to Davidson's move recently. Win-Win!
I wouldn't be shocked if we have another stellar season, better than last year, that we do get an invite to a bigger conference, whether it's the MVC, A10, Big East.
To me with the trajectory the program is on it's not a matter of if Valpo leaves the HL it's more of a matter of when.
It was interesting to see that NJIT is joining the Atlantic Sun. They were the last remaining Independent team, and had a good season, but this had to be protection against future conference moves.
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 10, 2015, 10:58:38 PM
A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert. Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently. i don't think that is a good thing. Set some tough standards and adhere to them.
I think the confederation line is pretty solid. And I think Youngstown State is the biggest reason why (that and the League commissioner is mediocre at best). Take away YSU and you have nine schools that are focused on putting together a great men's basketball program.
They have tried to set standards in the past. Before you joined the conference, we passed a rule keeping arena capacity above 5,000. That rule was pointed at us so we wouldn't go back to the Klotsche Center on campus (you know, until Lecrone needed the MVC off our scent. I'd explain but it sounds crazy and it's an extremely long story. I'd love to tell some of you guys in person over some beers). So there is some precedent. But I think we need standards for scheduling and I think we need a conference challenge to make scheduling easier on the conference.
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AM
LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.
LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.
Oakland and NKU will both be better than Loyola in the long run. They were at best a middling Horizon League team. I think the only thing I could see you guys really liking about them is that they are private and in close proximity. But they're also a Catholic school, like most of the A-10, not Lutheran.
The move for Valpo here was mutually beneficial. And I think you're doing the athletics program a disservice by just assuming Valpo is Valpo and you were better than us when you were in the Summit. The people who have made up that department - administrators, coaches and players - elevated their game to the better conference and they have done so beautifully. The Valpo of 2007 wouldn't have had the run of the last 4 years that the Valpo of 2015 has had. You guys have done much better.
You know who hasn't done better? The Summit. In our worst (tied) year for RPI since 2000, we finished five spots ahead of the Summit in their second best year for RPI since 2000. So I don't know what you mean. We're just a better conference top to bottom, and travel is so much easier. What conference would you be in where you'd have closer opponents? The Big Ten I suppose. There you'd have more opponents closer to you. See if they'll take you haha.
Quote from: vu72 on June 11, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: bbtds on June 11, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AMIf Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.
If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years.
The obvious choice in the Valley. Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least. We could replace that midwest presence. Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball. We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.
It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level. The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!
Here's the problem with your post. You say the obvious choice is the Valley. Of course it is! The Valley is also the obvious choice for Milwaukee, UIC and maybe even Wright State! But that's predicated on the idea that your school is going to be pursued by the Valley. So far, the Valley isn't biting. You're available. We're available. In my conversations with contacts in the MVC (both schools and office), the plan for now is to stand pat. They don't see anybody as a program that can come in and compete for at-large bids perennially - and without that capacity, why split the conference pie with two more schools? They have told me they'd be adding two, not one, if they were to add. I also know that Belmont balked when the MVC talked to them after Creighton left.
I don't buy that the A-10 is a real option for Valpo. Is it mostly private? Yeah. But those private schools are Catholic, not Lutheran. You guys might as well be Yeshivah University to the Roman Catholics. Well, not to Davidson, which is also a Protestant college (and only 700 miles away!).
Adding teams makes no sense when they stand at 14. When they drop from that number, it's going to be because they lose Saint Louis and Dayton to the Big East - we all know that's the only expansion the Big East is going to do. When that happens, Valpo's closest conference opponent would be Duquesne, a team that's only 420 miles away.
Think about that. If the A-10 would come knocking on your door, here's the distance you'd be traveling:
Valpo
to Davidson - 702 miles
to Duquesne - 420 miles
to St. Joe's/La Salle- 719 miles
to Fordham - 750 miles
to St. Bonaventure - 495 miles
to George Mason - 661 miles
to George Washington - 656 miles
to VCU/Richmond - 759 miles
to UMass - 875 miles
Well now. That's even crazier than I thought. For kicks let's check out the Horizon League:
to UIC - 56 miles
to Milwaukee - 153 miles
to Green Bay - 272 miles
to Detroit - 247 miles
to Oakland - 264 miles
to Cleveland State - 305 miles
to Wright State - 269 miles
to Youngstown State - 362 miles
to NKU - 270 miles
The FARTHEST Horizon League opponent is 58 miles closer to Valpo than the CLOSEST potential A-10 school. If you DOUBLE the distance to YSU, there's still half of the A-10 that's further. In short, the distance would keep the A-10 from being even feasible for Valpo. That is, unless they were to bring several midwest schools in, at which point the A-10 would become a superconference, far too big for its own good (and worse overall than the Horizon League as it stands at 10).
It's us or the Valley. I mean, you could theoretically go back and own the Summit, but I think you guys win enough here to stick around. Face it - we're in this together. And if the MVC decides it's going to add schools, it's going to be you and us. But I don't think that's happening any time soon, so let's focus on making the Horizon League better. And the first thing we have GOT to do as a conference is recognize that Youngstown State is an incredible burden on the conference's biggest sport, so we have to end them.
I think the best thing we can do right now is discuss how we, as fans - many of us have some decent influence - exorcise us of the RPI anchor-demons that are the Youngstown State Penguins. I guarantee you if you talk to Bryce Drew, that would be the best thing he could come up with as far as making Horizon League membership better. I've talked to plenty of coaches who agree.
So guys, how do we get that done? How do we rid ourselves of YSU? Feel free to tweet at me too (@PantherU)
I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 13, 2015, 07:05:44 AM
I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.
I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 12, 2015, 08:49:22 PM
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 10, 2015, 10:58:38 PM
A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert. Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently. i don't think that is a good thing. Set some tough standards and adhere to them.
I think the confederation line is pretty solid. And I think Youngstown State is the biggest reason why (that and the League commissioner is mediocre at best). Take away YSU and you have nine schools that are focused on putting together a great men's basketball program.
They have tried to set standards in the past. Before you joined the conference, we passed a rule keeping arena capacity above 5,000. That rule was pointed at us so we wouldn't go back to the Klotsche Center on campus (you know, until Lecrone needed the MVC off our scent. I'd explain but it sounds crazy and it's an extremely long story. I'd love to tell some of you guys in person over some beers). So there is some precedent. But I think we need standards for scheduling and I think we need a conference challenge to make scheduling easier on the conference.
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AM
LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.
LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.
Oakland and NKU will both be better than Loyola in the long run. They were at best a middling Horizon League team. I think the only thing I could see you guys really liking about them is that they are private and in close proximity. But they're also a Catholic school, like most of the A-10, not Lutheran.
The move for Valpo here was mutually beneficial. And I think you're doing the athletics program a disservice by just assuming Valpo is Valpo and you were better than us when you were in the Summit. The people who have made up that department - administrators, coaches and players - elevated their game to the better conference and they have done so beautifully. The Valpo of 2007 wouldn't have had the run of the last 4 years that the Valpo of 2015 has had. You guys have done much better.
You know who hasn't done better? The Summit. In our worst (tied) year for RPI since 2000, we finished five spots ahead of the Summit in their second best year for RPI since 2000. So I don't know what you mean. We're just a better conference top to bottom, and travel is so much easier. What conference would you be in where you'd have closer opponents? The Big Ten I suppose. There you'd have more opponents closer to you. See if they'll take you haha.
Quote from: vu72 on June 11, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Quote from: bbtds on June 11, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: classof2014 on June 11, 2015, 08:49:29 AMIf Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.
If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years.
The obvious choice in the Valley. Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least. We could replace that midwest presence. Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball. We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.
It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level. The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!
Here's the problem with your post. You say the obvious choice is the Valley. Of course it is! The Valley is also the obvious choice for Milwaukee, UIC and maybe even Wright State! But that's predicated on the idea that your school is going to be pursued by the Valley. So far, the Valley isn't biting. You're available. We're available. In my conversations with contacts in the MVC (both schools and office), the plan for now is to stand pat. They don't see anybody as a program that can come in and compete for at-large bids perennially - and without that capacity, why split the conference pie with two more schools? They have told me they'd be adding two, not one, if they were to add. I also know that Belmont balked when the MVC talked to them after Creighton left.
I don't buy that the A-10 is a real option for Valpo. Is it mostly private? Yeah. But those private schools are Catholic, not Lutheran. You guys might as well be Yeshivah University to the Roman Catholics. Well, not to Davidson, which is also a Protestant college (and only 700 miles away!).
Adding teams makes no sense when they stand at 14. When they drop from that number, it's going to be because they lose Saint Louis and Dayton to the Big East - we all know that's the only expansion the Big East is going to do. When that happens, Valpo's closest conference opponent would be Duquesne, a team that's only 420 miles away.
Think about that. If the A-10 would come knocking on your door, here's the distance you'd be traveling:
Valpo
to Davidson - 702 miles
to Duquesne - 420 miles
to St. Joe's/La Salle- 719 miles
to Fordham - 750 miles
to St. Bonaventure - 495 miles
to George Mason - 661 miles
to George Washington - 656 miles
to VCU/Richmond - 759 miles
to UMass - 875 miles
Well now. That's even crazier than I thought. For kicks let's check out the Horizon League:
to UIC - 56 miles
to Milwaukee - 153 miles
to Green Bay - 272 miles
to Detroit - 247 miles
to Oakland - 264 miles
to Cleveland State - 305 miles
to Wright State - 269 miles
to Youngstown State - 362 miles
to NKU - 270 miles
The FARTHEST Horizon League opponent is 58 miles closer to Valpo than the CLOSEST potential A-10 school. If you DOUBLE the distance to YSU, there's still half of the A-10 that's further. In short, the distance would keep the A-10 from being even feasible for Valpo. That is, unless they were to bring several midwest schools in, at which point the A-10 would become a superconference, far too big for its own good (and worse overall than the Horizon League as it stands at 10).
It's us or the Valley. I mean, you could theoretically go back and own the Summit, but I think you guys win enough here to stick around. Face it - we're in this together. And if the MVC decides it's going to add schools, it's going to be you and us. But I don't think that's happening any time soon, so let's focus on making the Horizon League better. And the first thing we have GOT to do as a conference is recognize that Youngstown State is an incredible burden on the conference's biggest sport, so we have to end them.
I think the best thing we can do right now is discuss how we, as fans - many of us have some decent influence - exorcise us of the RPI anchor-demons that are the Youngstown State Penguins. I guarantee you if you talk to Bryce Drew, that would be the best thing he could come up with as far as making Horizon League membership better. I've talked to plenty of coaches who agree.
So guys, how do we get that done? How do we rid ourselves of YSU? Feel free to tweet at me too (@PantherU)
Quite a post. Just a couple of comments. If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU. In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.
As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition. Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic. If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools. If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic. Much different then the Big East.
So then there is the travel thing. Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work. The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence. Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university. This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.
Quote from: a3uge on June 13, 2015, 07:42:23 AM
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 13, 2015, 07:05:44 AM
I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.
I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.
LOL me neither. NJIT is 383 miles away from YSU, which would be its closest opponent in the Horizon League. We might have made sense for them, but they didn't make sense for us.
Make no mistake, Northern Kentucky is equipped for the long run. Their budget has gotten much higher since they joined D-I and was bigger than most in the A-Sun because they wanted to be here. They used their impending move to Division I to raise money to build facilities, and they will have the best basketball arena, one of the best baseball stadiums, and the best modern soccer stadium in the Horizon League. They're only a newbie at this level. They've got a new coaching staff hired by Ken Bothof, who did a pretty good job hiring coaches at Green Bay and has a bigger budget and better facilities to recruit a coach at NKU.
CSU and GB are going down. That's going to happen. But Milwaukee, UIC, and Wright State are almost assured to be better this season. Oakland should be about as good. Barring injury you guys should be better. I don't know about Detroit, but YSU can't get much worse (started from da bottom now 'dey still 'dere). This conference is going to be markedly better in 2015-16.
I just think this conversation should pivot towards working together to oust YSU. Pull up the anchor and it's easier to sail.
Quote from: vu72 on June 13, 2015, 09:00:56 AMQuite a post. Just a couple of comments. If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU. In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.
As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition. Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic. If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools. If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic. Much different then the Big East.
So then there is the travel thing. Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work. The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence. Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university. This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.
I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.
I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 13, 2015, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: vu72 on June 13, 2015, 09:00:56 AMQuite a post. Just a couple of comments. If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU. In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.
As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition. Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic. If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools. If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic. Much different then the Big East.
So then there is the travel thing. Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work. The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence. Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university. This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.
I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.
I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?
Possibly. That's a decision for folks with much more knowledge of the situation. The trade off is lost study time and travel expense. The positive is national exposure and that is very difficult to measure. If, for example, by having a real presence on the east coast and much better national tv exposure, we gain, say 100 new students. Remember, Valpo is trying to grow from about 4500 students to 6000. Say each of those kids pays, after scholarships, a net price of $30,000. That is $3,000,000 if my math is correct.
There is a HUGE difference in traveling to play Fordham or George Washington, then traveling to play So. Utah or UMKC. Again, for whatever reason, Butler and Creighton, with whom we compete for students, saw the sense in it, perhaps we should also. It is strength in association and reputation. Hanging with UWGB, YSU and others, are clearly not at our level academically. That isn't bragging, just fact.
Quote from: vu72 on June 13, 2015, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 13, 2015, 11:07:16 AM
Quote from: vu72 on June 13, 2015, 09:00:56 AMQuite a post. Just a couple of comments. If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU. In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.
As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition. Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic. If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools. If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic. Much different then the Big East.
So then there is the travel thing. Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work. The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence. Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university. This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.
I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.
I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?
Possibly. That's a decision for folks with much more knowledge of the situation. The trade off is lost study time and travel expense. The positive is national exposure and that is very difficult to measure. If, for example, by having a real presence on the east coast and much better national tv exposure, we gain, say 100 new students. Remember, Valpo is trying to grow from about 4500 students to 6000. Say each of those kids pays, after scholarships, a net price of $30,000. That is $3,000,000 if my math is correct.
There is a HUGE difference in traveling to play Fordham or George Washington, then traveling to play So. Utah or UMKC. Again, for whatever reason, Butler and Creighton, with whom we compete for students, saw the sense in it, perhaps we should also. It is strength in association and reputation. Hanging with UWGB, YSU and others, are clearly not at our level academically. That isn't bragging, just fact.
I wonder who the CEO of Microsoft would be right now if Satya Nadella had to pay $30k a year to go to UWM :lol:
When Butler moved into the Atlantic 10, first off there was room for them and second they had close opponents in Xavier, Dayton, and Saint Louis. On top of that, everyone and their mother knew the Big East basketball schools were going to split off, so Butler knew they'd have a better shot if they were coming from the A-10 instead of the Horizon League. Would they push Valpo over, say, Northeastern, which is within the footprint and has a natural rivalry with UMass? Or James Madison, which is a traditional rival to Richmond, VCU and George Mason? They might go for College of Charleston, to keep their footprint in the Carolinas rolling. What about the MAAC schools that have been pretty solid? Iona, Manhattan and Siena are all schools that fit the A-10 footprint, are successful in basketball, and fit the conference philosophically. In short, they're good fits that won't blow up the travel budgets of 12 schools. There's other candidates too - Robert Morris would probably be the strongest team with their near perennial NCAA Tournament appearances and they share a town with Duquesne (as well as other potential program Drexel).
I guess what I'm trying to say is, they've got plenty of fish that aren't 400 miles from the closest conference school.
Valpo hasn't won in the NCAA Tournament since 1998. Kids born after The Shot will be going to college next fall. You guys go to the tournament with regularity, which is good. But for the A-10 to look at you guys and be like "Hell yeah we'll take the added travel costs," you've gotta do better than that. Davidson had an Elite Eight a handful of years ago. George Mason and VCU both had recent Final Fours, and those teams were in the footprint. There's no at-large history for Valpo. I could tell a few of you probably rolled your eyes when I mentioned Davidson's Elite Eight because they had Steph Curry, but Valpo's entire cache of NCAA Tournament victories comes from Bryce Drew.
The good news on that end, obviously, is that Valpo has an at-large quality team. You lose pretty much nobody (since it looks like Vashil gets his year back) and add a couple great recruits.
I understand the ramifications of moving up to the A-10. If the A-10 had more members near or in the midwest, I could see it being a possibility once SLU and Dayton move up. I just can't see the conference inviting Valpo over other schools out east. Make a run in the 2016 Tournament and you guys definitely move up the list. You gotta MAKE them want you.
The A10 isn't a good fit for both Valpo and the A10. Athletic conferences aren't just for basketball. You're talking about charters and extremely long bus rides for all sports. The MVC would be the league to move up into, not the A10.
Quote from: a3uge on June 14, 2015, 11:04:27 AM
The A10 isn't a good fit for both Valpo and the A10. Athletic conferences aren't just for basketball. You're talking about charters and extremely long bus rides for all sports. The MVC would be the league to move up into, not the A10.
You may be right but the schools fit better for Valpo. There will be air flights not long bus trips. I suppose if Valpo was prepared to travel to Sp. Utah and Louisiana that traveling to the East coast wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibilities. The bottom line here is what panther pointed out. Just as Creighton and Butler made the A10 and Big East want them even taking into account the added travel for everyone, we need to step up our game and results before the A10 would want to offer us a spot.
I plead guilty to the charge of being stuck in the 1970s but I think there is something to be said for quaint considerations such as, you know, geographic common sense and traditional rivalries. I am willing to bet anyone on this board $100 right now that not 1 in 100 people in Valparaiso, Indiana can (1) spell Duquesne, (2) pronounce Duquesne, and (3) identify where it is located.
Any conference with the word "Atlantic" in it should not list Valparaiso, Indiana as one of its members. Once St. Louis and Dayton make their inevitable departure from the A10, then VU will be the lone midwest representative and will have lost the only league member, Dayton, that is somewhat close. The travel will make the old Summit league road contests look like a Sunday stroll from Sheriff Taylor's house down to Floyd's barber shop. The travel may be ok for the glamour sport that has become mens' bball, but it just won't do for the other sports. You are going to charter a flight for the womens' tennis team? Come on.
We may not have played some of the MVC schools in a while, but at least we have played most if not all of those teams in the past -- and in the case of Evansville, Indiana State, and UNI, we have played them a lot. Easier to build a rivalry, too, with other schools like Bradley and Drake than, say, Fordham or St. Bonaventure.
Paul
Think out of the box a little...The average combined SAT score at NJIT is 1190, which is very good. This certainly helps the academic integrity of the Horizon or any conference, Also, didn't NJIT defeat Michigan last year?
Let me put in this way - I would take NJIT over Northern Kentucky, IUPUI or IPFW - this is a very good school and perhaps their basketball program is on the rise...
The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location. Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget. They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC. The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market. The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights. The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights. The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo. You were always competing for 1 spot. Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited. If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets. Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets. The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 14, 2015, 10:26:40 PM
Think out of the box a little...The average combined SAT score at NJIT is 1190, which is very good. This certainly helps the academic integrity of the Horizon or any conference, Also, didn't NJIT defeat Michigan last year?
Let me put in this way - I would take NJIT over Northern Kentucky, IUPUI or IPFW - this is a very good school and perhaps their basketball program is on the rise...
You do realize the Horizon doesn't sponsor Mathlete teams, right?
Quote from: Big D on June 14, 2015, 11:13:45 PM
The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location. Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget. They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC. The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market. The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights. The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights. The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo. You were always competing for 1 spot. Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited. If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets. Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets. The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.
You were probably right until you started babbling about SLU and Dayton. They're not going to join the MVC any time soon and will hold out hope for the Big East until they get in. In the end, the MVC will realize adding Loyola did nothing for them, and if Valpo becomes a perennial at-large contender, they have a shot to switch leagues... or at least a better chance than SLU/Dayton have at joining the MVC.
True, Loyola is in a big media market, but here is the issue --- very few people in Chicago follow or care about Loyola basketball. They have a smaller following than DePaul, and we have discussed that it is a program Chicago does not care about.
The big positive about Loyola overall is that they have big dollars and a strong alumni base.
The MVC would have been wise to select Valpo and it would been a decent fit for all sides.
usc4valpo,
you don't seem to understand how major conferences and networks negotiate contracts. I'll use the Big 10 as the role model everyone has been following lately. They recently added Maryland and Rutgers. Neither school is good at all in football and neither school has a following worth a crap. That didn't matter at all. What they offered was large media markets. Rutgers gave the Big 10 the NYC media market and Maryland got them the DC media market. Even though no one in those markets give a crap about either school, the Big 10 was able to add the BTN to basic cable subscribers in both media markets which brought in millions for each school in their conference. All other conferences are moving in that direction. They want to add schools that make some sense geographically but add new media markets that help their conference with network negotiations. Those kind of things do not matter in the mid-major world we live in but for conferences like the A-10 and MVC that make money on their TV contracts, it matters.
The MVC knows that adding St. Louis and Dayton is a pipe dream, but they are not in a position where they need to add anyone. They would rather stay at 10 (and just wait for SLU/UD) than add any other teams that do not offer consistent NCAA at large potential because it doesn't help their conference. They split their NCAA tournament revenue and TV contract revenue 10 ways. They are not going to split it up 11 or 12 ways unless they are sure those next additions add revenue to the conference. You don't add a new media market for them. You have never received an at large bid to the Dance. No offense, but you have no shot at the MVC as things stand now.
FYI, when the MVC expanded to add Loyola, they looked at multiple schools. They were looking at Loyola, UIC, and Valpo for one spot to add the Chicago media market. They offered Belmont (and were turned down) to add the Nashville media market. They looked at Milwaukee but saw their athletic department as a clusterfuck due to the constant turnover of ADs. They looked at my school but ruled us out because they would rather hold out for UD since we would both be in the same media market and we didn't offer them a school with that at large potential. They also looked at 3-4 other schools from lower rated conferences. They decided to stay at 10. Adding 2 additional schools would have expanded their media markets but they didn't feel any of the other schools offered enough at large potential to help their conference.
Quote from: Big D on June 14, 2015, 11:13:45 PM
The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location. Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget. They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC. The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market. The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights. The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights. The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo. You were always competing for 1 spot. Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited. If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets. Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets. The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.
You're forgetting another thing that Loyola brought to the MVC - the Chicago recruiting market. If you look at MVC rosters today compared to three years ago, there's considerably more Chicago flavor involved. The northwest Indiana recruiting pool isn't exactly a top tier.
Here's the problem with SLU and the MVC that most of our people don't know because none of us represent either party: they have an antagonistic relationship. There's a deep disrespect between SLU and the MVC that has lasted for a long time. I'm not privy to the reasoning behind it, I just know it's there. It probably has something to do with the fact that SLU left the MVC in 1974. If I'm not mistaken, a small part of the reason the MVC Tournament picked STL as the home for their conference tournament was the MVC thumbing their nose at SLU. I'm trying to remember who was telling me about all this. For some reason I keep thinking it's a former Butler administrator I used to talk to weekly. I'll give them a call today and see if it's them and if they know. Otherwise I'm sure Majerus told some Marquette people and I'll talk to some of those people too.
In short, the antagonistic relationship between SLU and the MVC will preclude them from ever joining the conference.
I suppose that leaves Dayton as a possible team for the MVC, but they don't have the stupid travel that SLU has in the A-10 so I'm not sure they'd be so inclined to make the move. The A-10 is a great league. We all know it. I think they've got more dead weight than the MVC does and the MVC is more geographically friendly so I'd prefer them, but I get why Dayton may not want to uproot and go to another league unless it's to step up to the high-major Big East - they got a good thing going in the A-10.
________________________
I started writing this a few hours ago and have since had a few conversations with some people scattered. Some highlights I can share:
- "It's more likely the A-10 cuts to 10 than replaces SLU/UD with new teams in that hypothetical scenario"
- "MVC probably won't add any teams unless they lose somebody"
- "I haven't heard anything about the Big East actually expanding but it's a frequent topic of discussion in the conference's meetings"
- "SLU to the MVC may not be as crazy as it was three years ago"
It's all speculative stuff from coaches and administrators so take it for what it is - they're speculating just like us, they just happen to work directly for the principals (or used to).
Quote from: Big D on June 15, 2015, 12:05:30 PM
usc4valpo,
you don't seem to understand how major conferences and networks negotiate contracts. I'll use the Big 10 as the role model everyone has been following lately. They recently added Maryland and Rutgers. Neither school is good at all in football and neither school has a following worth a crap. That didn't matter at all. What they offered was large media markets. Rutgers gave the Big 10 the NYC media market and Maryland got them the DC media market. Even though no one in those markets give a crap about either school, the Big 10 was able to add the BTN to basic cable subscribers in both media markets which brought in millions for each school in their conference. All other conferences are moving in that direction. They want to add schools that make some sense geographically but add new media markets that help their conference with network negotiations. Those kind of things do not matter in the mid-major world we live in but for conferences like the A-10 and MVC that make money on their TV contracts, it matters.
The MVC knows that adding St. Louis and Dayton is a pipe dream, but they are not in a position where they need to add anyone. They would rather stay at 10 (and just wait for SLU/UD) than add any other teams that do not offer consistent NCAA at large potential because it doesn't help their conference. They split their NCAA tournament revenue and TV contract revenue 10 ways. They are not going to split it up 11 or 12 ways unless they are sure those next additions add revenue to the conference. You don't add a new media market for them. You have never received an at large bid to the Dance. No offense, but you have no shot at the MVC as things stand now.
FYI, when the MVC expanded to add Loyola, they looked at multiple schools. They were looking at Loyola, UIC, and Valpo for one spot to add the Chicago media market. They offered Belmont (and were turned down) to add the Nashville media market. They looked at Milwaukee but saw their athletic department as a clusterfuck due to the constant turnover of ADs. They looked at my school but ruled us out because they would rather hold out for UD since we would both be in the same media market and we didn't offer them a school with that at large potential. They also looked at 3-4 other schools from lower rated conferences. They decided to stay at 10. Adding 2 additional schools would have expanded their media markets but they didn't feel any of the other schools offered enough at large potential to help their conference.
When I think about it, I don't think anything describes our athletic department better than the word "Clusterfuck." Spot on, good sir.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 15, 2015, 12:24:06 PMI started writing this a few hours ago and have since had a few conversations with some people scattered. Some highlights I can share:
- "It's more likely the A-10 cuts to 10 than replaces SLU/UD with new teams in that hypothetical scenario"
- "MVC probably won't add any teams unless they lose somebody"
- "I haven't heard anything about the Big East actually expanding but it's a frequent topic of discussion in the conference's meetings"
- "SLU to the MVC may not be as crazy as it was three years ago"
It's all speculative stuff from coaches and administrators so take it for what it is - they're speculating just like us, they just happen to work directly for the principals (or used to).
Lots of quality input here from vu72, BigD,Jimmy and others. I think the info quoted above makes a lot of sense.
I don't see much reason for either the Big East or the MVC to expand beyond 10 teams. That number is perfect for a basketball-centric league because it allows a full round robin schedule. I know from reading Big East boards that most fans are very happy at 10. From a financial standpoint, it's hard to beat a model where a 10 team league sends 4-6 teams to the NCAAT, which is what they've done the last two years.
Opportunities for Valpo would seem to arise if the MVC loses a single team (not sure who would leave?) or if either Dayton or SLU (but only one) leaves the A-10. In any case, the key is to continue shining up the program (performance/facilities) to make it as attractive as possible when the next opportunity comes around.
Quote from: zvillehaze on June 15, 2015, 03:35:08 PMLots of quality input here from vu72, BigD,Jimmy and others. I think the info quoted above makes a lot of sense.
I don't see much reason for either the Big East or the MVC to expand beyond 10 teams. That number is perfect for a basketball-centric league because it allows a full round robin schedule. I know from reading Big East boards that most fans are very happy at 10. From a financial standpoint, it's hard to beat a model where a 10 team league sends 4-6 teams to the NCAAT, which is what they've done the last two years.
Opportunities for Valpo would seem to arise if the MVC loses a single team (not sure who would leave?) or if either Dayton or SLU (but only one) leaves the A-10. In any case, the key is to continue shining up the program (performance/facilities) to make it as attractive as possible when the next opportunity comes around.
This thread is one of the reasons I think we need a centralized Horizon League website. We tried putting together The Horizone but that didn't work because there was a lot of work involved. Perhaps if we took Jim Squire's On the Horizon blog that just aggregates press clippings for all the HL teams, cleaned it up to look modern and made it so it pulled all the blogs and newspapers that covered the HL (not just my PantherU but Phear the Phoenix, Bryan Everson's Press Row Sports), we could have something to sustain and bring us together for these types of great discussion. Let's also use Chuck A's Horizon League forum as the board. Just spitballing ideas.
Quote from: zvillehaze on June 15, 2015, 03:35:08 PM
Opportunities for Valpo would seem to arise if the MVC loses a single team (not sure who would leave?) or if either Dayton or SLU (but only one) leaves the A-10. In any case, the key is to continue shining up the program (performance/facilities) to make it as attractive as possible when the next opportunity comes around.
After reading all the input to this discussion (and I really appreciate the involvement of Panther and Big D on this), two thing are clear to me:
1 -- It's not our (Valpo's or the forum's) decision to be invited, so all this chatter is conjecture. Sure, Valpo can campaign to the various conference powers that be in hopes of attracting an invitation, but our forum discussions, are irrelevant to that process.
2 -- In light of #1 above, I agree that our only recourse is to do just as zville says: do whatever we can to make Valpo as attractive as possible for whatever may evolve. Work hard to take the HL to the next level as well - a rising tide floats all boats. These are things we can control (to an extent). And then, who knows?
Bryce is doing his part in recruiting some great players and finding ways to win the HL. To take it up a notch, as most have stated, we need an improved OOC schedule. That might be happening as we relax during the summer. But that, in turn a little further down the road, also might be tied to the next thought.
What needs to happen is that the
university has to step up sooner than later and throw some well-earned (by MBB) funds at the program (not just at Bryce's salary). IMO, there is a lot that could be done to the ARC without the need to first build a field house. Things that come to mind: the desperately needed north wing (it's in the 30 year plan) that would provide upper tier seating above much needed concession and lavatory additions as well as new and expanded training/sports med facilities which are also desperately needed. Once that is done, the ARC could handle conversion to better chair back seating on both sidelines as well as permanent east baseline seating. The capacity might not be enhanced greatly -- maybe it goes from the publicized 5,000 to 5,600 or 6,000 or so, but the quality would be much improved. And the intimate, intense atmosphere would be preserved. None of that would require a field house to be built first.
Loyola's renovation of the Gentile Center proved to me that the ARC doesn't need to be replaced, but a full-scale renovation could be just what the doctor ordered if they can get it all done in one summer (like Loyola). I wonder how much the Gentile reno cost, because the only dollar amounts I've seen have been tied to the whole deal.
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 15, 2015, 07:25:23 PM
What needs to happen is that the university has to step up sooner than later and throw some well-earned (by MBB) funds at the program (not just at Bryce's salary).
Others close to Valpo would know better than me, but the elephant in the room is that NCAA tournament payouts have been shrinking and will continue to shrink as long as the league in one-and-done in the NCAA tourney. My guess is that is putting a squeeze on some budgets. Would be interested in knowing how that impacts Valpo's (and other HL team's) operating budgets. ML or Paul Oren could probably shed some light on this issue.
Big D -
Good feedback, thanks.
Valpo needs to have a truly outstanding season and beat someone of significance. Also, the MVC may lose Wichita State or some other team, and a spot may be open.
Also, you could imply that Valparaiso is part of the Chicagoland area. Some Hoosiers may take offense to that, but what the heck.
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 16, 2015, 04:56:57 PM
Also, you could imply that Valparaiso is part of the Chicagoland area. Some Hoosiers may take offense to that, but what the heck.
Hey, if it's within a 1.25 hour drive (non-rush hour) of any city it's part of "Anycityland" regardless of what a state boundary on a map says. Valparasians (is that a word?) get a majority (if not all) of their media from the city to the NW and many commute to that city to the NW and owe their mortgages and pay their insurance to entities in that city. They also go to that city to take in MLB, NBA, MLS, NHL and NFL games of teams that they have had life-long loyalties to. Bottom line is that any town within a 75 mile radius is a suburb of that city. The association does not stop at State Line Avenue, Calumet City.
I've lived in the Boston area for 42 years and now live in Wisconsin. Why did I enjoy making that point? :crazy:
62. excellent analysis. IMO, given the big picture, Valpo in the long run would be a better representative of the MVC than Loyola. We will wait and see.
Quote from: VULB#62 on June 16, 2015, 06:14:11 PM
Quote from: usc4valpo on June 16, 2015, 04:56:57 PM
Also, you could imply that Valparaiso is part of the Chicagoland area. Some Hoosiers may take offense to that, but what the heck.
Hey, if it's within a 1.25 hour drive (non-rush hour) of any city it's part of "Anycityland" regardless of what a state boundary on a map says. Valparasians (is that a word?) get a majority (if not all) of their media from the city to the NW and many commute to that city to the NW and owe their mortgages and pay their insurance to entities in that city. They also go to that city to take in MLB, NBA, MLS, NHL and NFL games of teams that they have had life-long loyalties to. Bottom line is that any town within a 75 mile radius is a suburb of that city. The association does not stop at State Line Avenue, Calumet City.
I've lived in the Boston area for 42 years and now live in Wisconsin. Why did I enjoy making that point? :crazy:
The problem is that nobody from Chicago really identifies Valpo as part of their market. Chicago as a market doesn't support college sports as it is. A market like Milwaukee or Dayton could draw some interest with a local TV package if their teams ever became consistently decent. Valpo, is in a weird location that doesn't have much potential for large TV viewership. Endowment, student, and alumni interest may be good, but the reality of the situation is that Valpo still has a small enrollment for D1, which means limited resources, and not a lot of potential for decent TV numbers.
The flip side is that if Valpo is decent every year, they'll drive decent ratings/attendance every team they play. The Horizon is situated in a bunch of great sports markets like Milwaukee, Green Bay, Dayton, and Detroit. Who's actually been the best for the league; the good markets, or the team that has been winning? I personally think the whole large market approach is overrated when it comes to mid majors. As online streaming becomes more and more prevalent, location becomes less and less important. I think over time the obsession for conferences to add markets will become less of a factor.
We just have to get even better and maintain that profile over time. In doing so we force attention. DePaul was Chicago's baby when they were good. But they couldn't maintain it. We need to maintain excellence and "anycityland" will eventually have to take notice. Loyola won a national championship and pissed it all away. We had "the shot" and pissed that away. We can not afford to blow the opportunity this present team is placing at our feet.
In the next two to three years Valpo can take the next step toward a national presence --- or not. I hope the university administration realizes what great potential we have to expand not only our brand but our ministry. Failing to do so is turning our backs on a gift.
You hit the nail on the head, 62. The athletics department, and in a way, VU is at a crossroads. Show some, heck ANY, commitment towards improving things for Bryce, and Valpo's profile could soar. Proceed as status quo and risk falling into irrelevance once he moves on.
As others have asked, why can't VU do its part to lift Bryce? His coaching tenure at Valpo will be his second, and last, golden ticket for the school. If VU can't cash in on this opportunity, the Horizon League will be as high as it will ever go. Which is really sad when you think about it.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on June 15, 2015, 04:24:36 PMnot just my PantherU but Phear the Phoenix, Bryan Everson's Press Row Sports
It already does, actually ;) as well as UIC's Whoosh!Net and WSU's RaiderRoundball, although those may not be what you consider blogs.