I'll be in the crowd hoping for the best in this one, but Valpo faces a team that was ranked in the top 25 last week whose only losses have been to Michigan State and Auburn. The Ramblers enter the game riding a seven game winning streak and haven't lost at home this year.
With any luck, Trevor will be back, and Covid will not have spread among the team members.
This game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing. Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.
I think Valpo is going to play the Ramblers close and lose by 5.
I see no hope for this game, and I'm starting to think the same about the season. It's becoming abundantly clear that the only way we can compete is if we have everyone available. No Ben - lose, no Kobe - lose, no Thomas - lose, no Trevor - lose. If players are getting COVID, then the vaccine that was supposed to give us an advantage is a joke, or if they are quarantining simply because they were "exposed" to someone with COVID, even though they're vaccinated, I guess we'll never be at full strength again. Of course, all we fans can do is speculate because these supposed health issues are being treated like the secret sauce behind Colonel Sander's recipe.
I wonder if the college hoop season is going to be suspended.
Valpo currently at 15.5 point underdogs, ughhh surely we cover that, I guess I'm hoping for a 10 point loss or better! Moneyline is +850, I'll put down $5 lol. For some reason I think we might win this. Call me crazy but the talent is there so we're due I suppose. The notion definitely isn't evidenced based.
P0' 64
Scarfs 63
If we go back two games, there was a lot of hope and optimism around the team and our ability to complete with the best in this league. Then a dud against UNI and a close loss (that was only close due to a late rally) to SIU has crushed all of that hope. We still have some talent and if it comes together on any given night, I think we can certainty compete. But which games that will be is a complete mystery. I would not be surprised if we won this in a close game, nor would I be surprised if we lost by 20+. I know which one is far more likely though.
This feels like a game that will give us hope before the inevitable letdown, but still a loss.
Vu 62
LU 68
Just like last year Matt has Loyola set up to be massively overconfident but that is about the only advantage I can think of. One more is that I'm unable to watch the game live and that also sometimes helps! :thumbsup:
Just remembered that our last trip to Butler was a win.
The first 7 mins will tell us how this game goes. If we miss our shots early and they quickly bury 3s it's going to be a long night.
I hope we don't come out rushed and panicked and settle for long 3s.
Kobe can really get to the hoop and I hope we start incorporating that in the offense more. I would have loved to see that happen at the end of the siu game.
Crusaders are 16-41 against Loyola all time.
We are 1-0 against Grand Canyon University.
We were in the HL for 10 years from 07-17.
Crusaders were 7-5 against Loyola when both were in the HL.
Good defense so far today. Let's see if we can keep it up...
Up 8 at the half is good, it could have turned bad real fast with (2) 3's and a technical foul but Valpo responded well.
Well. I'll be the first to admit that was a pretty good half of basketball. We came out with a plan and executed. Let's see if we can make the necessary adjustments in the 2nd half...
And we are actually out rebounding them 16-11. Krikke has done nothing and our starting point is out. Hope springs eternal!
Foul trouble for nearly everyone , ahhh let's somehow pull this out !
As much fun as this game is at the moment, I am getting so pissed off at the bone-headed plays. Is it really worth saying something to the ref or opponent for one second, just to get a word in? Good lord, control your emotions on the court.
WE'VE GOT TO WIN ! LET'S GO!
Absolutely bone-headed in the last 2 minutes.
Seriously, absolutely moronic foul there.
Some absolutely awful play down the stretch of this one. Kithier got fouled on that inbound though.
As for the final possession of regulation, I know King is a jump shooter but man I'd rather have seen us drive to the basket. That was such a low percentage shot. Go inside! Draw a foul if you need to!
We've played atrocious the past few minutes. But the refs have been just as bad.
The refs have swallowed their whistles on the jersey tugging that Loyola has been doing over the last 7 minutes of game time. It happened on both of those inbounds plays at the end of regulation.
Refs have sucked again at Loyola. Sheldon was way too nonchalant with that inbounds play, so that is on us. Other than that we got screwed. Two Techs.... Really?
3 crap inbounds plays at end of regulation. Pure crap.
You have got to be f'ing kidding me with that last play. Sheldon waits until 5 seconds to move, and takes what is going to be an obvious 3? Take it to the mf'ing hole!!!!!!!!
Why why why take that shot Sheldon. Drive the ball.
Again with the absolutely TERRIBLE shot selection on a potential buzzer beater. DRIVE THE PAINT!!!! Why are we settling for long jumpers??? Everyone thinks they're Steph Curry. You're not! Get the ball inside!
We just keep throwing away our chances...same as last game.
We had so much time and we had a timeout to draw something up.
Well...that might be the dagger.
We squandered so many chances to win this game. Waiting 19 seconds just to launch a 3 with a few seconds left was one of them. We were in the bonus too at that time
I often wonder if Lottich calls for Sheldon to take the ball 1-on-1 in these circumstances? You could tell that he wasn't going to pass down 2...
I can't stand watching Sheldon Edwards play basketball...
Lottich needed that win to get off the hot seat. Chalk up another moral victory though
I tuned in with zero expectations...and somehow I'm still disappointed
You can't fault our shooting overall. Just some absolute choke jobs individually when we were ahead at the end of regulation. Lottich coaches a hell of a game, in my opinion, and for most of the game, players were very good. Just choking at the end...
Finding new and even more exciting ways to lose.
All my sports teams take years off my life.
We all blamed Bakari, Edwards, et al for their poor shot selection the last few years, but when you don't have an offensive plan or a series of set plays to run in end game scenarios this is what happens.
This was a good physical effort against a great team, and yes the officials were horrible, but for all our optimism in the offseason, hear we are again, 1-4 in the conference, under .500 and staring at yet another Thursday night date in St Louis.
How anybody can STILL defend lottich at this point is beyond me. Yes, individual mistakes and sloppy play. But we see the same individual, sloppy mistakes every game and nothing gets changed. There is no discipline on this tema and that's the difference between a double digit win and a loss. Really the difference in about 7 games so far this year too.
Whether you choke in an end of game situation, by not using both hands to catch the pass, is not something that you can coach. Throwing an inbounds pass that is within arm's reach of the recipient, is not the coach. Saying things to a referee when you think you are fouled, not once, but twice, is not the coach. Those are all individuals.
The last three games have all been horrible in their own way, each more excruciating than the last.
What circle of hell are we at currently?
You can't teach the feeling that you get internally, when a game is tight in crunch time. Tie game in the bottom of the 9th, 3-2 count, is it easy to throw that next strike? You literally feel it in your body, no matter how much you try to calm yourself down. How you react is up to you as an individual. You can't coach being clutch.
I agree with Valpotx ... Lottich coached a good game. 2 bad plays in regulation at the end where inbound passes were screwed up. One where Edwards should have used both hands. But .... the refs were Loyola's 6th man ... calls were not called fair both ways. Very obvious. The guys played a hell of a game.
QuoteWe all blamed Bakari, Edwards, et al for their poor shot selection the last few years, but when you don't have an offensive plan or a series of set plays to run in end game scenarios this is what happens.
I believe the play is called: "Pretend to make the game winner while playing in the backyard"
Rudy played a hell of a game tonight. Would have liked to get the technical foul back and the ill timed turnover but otherwise he was great.
I don't think some of you are familiar with all of a coaches responsibilities. They don't end at Xs and Os or in game actions. It's preparing the team for situations like these. Working in practice on these situations. And yes, that does include how to throw an inbounds pass away from a defender where only your teammate can get it. And it certainly involves coaching your team to play in control and not make dumb mistakes, such as the technical fouls. Whether that be through discipline in practice or in games. I sit right behind the bench. Lottich will privately rip a player for a decision to an assistant, and then when that player comes out tap him on the butt and not say anything. Most of the time an assistant doesn't even grab them to talk about it, although sometimes they do. Maybe he gets on them in practice, but we sure aren't seeing the results of that because the same boneheaded sloppiness comes out every game.
I can humor you for a minute and say it is on the players and nothing on the coach. Who is recruiting those players? Why are the coaches not recruiting players that demonstrate poise and control and level headedness? Why are so many other schools able to do it but not us? For 6 years now we have come up with excuses and I am tired of it. This is worse than the Bears.
I thought valentine coached a good game.
1. Did you see the adjustments he made at halftime? The difference in the way his team played on D.
2. Did you see the out of bounds play that led to the OPEN 3 point shot in 2nd OT which put the game away?
Which coach has been a head coach for 6 years and which one has been a head coach for 1 year?
The team is coming along nicely. Best played game of the year. Will this game crush them or motivate them? I think they now think they can play with anyone in the MVC and this loss will motivate them. The only question is, will they ever play as well from now on and even if they do, will they win?
Next game please.
Calling the ticky-tack foul on Kithier with 15.7 seconds left was absurd
The obvious takeaway is that Valpo should have won in regulation. They were undone by some poor decisions and some bad officiating. Valpo had four players in foul trouble when Loyola had only a total of four fouls in the game. Kithier was clearly held on the inbounds off his hand, and the ref missed the call, which happened often in the game. Officials will tend to favor teams at the top of the conference, especially on their home court (I admit it happened in the Horizon League for the Crusaders at times), but Valpo has not become that team in the MVC while Loyola has.
If complaining to the official caused the technical foul, that hurts; however, as I have said in past years, players get in that situation when Lottich isn't forceful in objecting to the refs' poor performance. He should give and take the heat from the officials more so the player knows he has his back and will argue for the player. I didn't see him confront the officials forcefully on their bad calls once during the game. Officials give coaches more leeway than they will a walk-on guard, and coaches' complaints are usually more effective or persuasive. If a player gets a technical for saying something in the heat of the moment in give and take with an opponent in a game like this, the ref should show some restraint, maybe just a warning.
Also, with a 10-point lead and less than 8 minutes left, good coaching should win the game. In fact, let's acknowledge the final plays that could have won the game at the end of regulation and the end of the first overtime were poorly planned and executed. The second overtime clearly belonged to Norris, though it should never have gotten that far.
Again......where was this effort on defense at UNI or even for more than 15 minutes at home against SIU? Effort was good tonight. Very inconsistent effort from this team on defense from game to game. Who's fault is this? Game was lost tonight in last minute of second half. 3 straight possessions, 3 turnovers. Curious to see what effort shows up Saturday at home versus MSU. Also.......who's team is this on offense?
QuoteWhich coach has been a head coach for 6 years and which one has been a head coach for 1 year?
Valentine was a grad assistant in the Big Ten, a successful assistant coach in the Horizon League, a successful assistant coach in the MVC, and now a successful coach in the MVC.
Our coach was a successful Horizon League coach who jumped right in the driver's seat of an MVC team.
Valentine worked his way up. Lottich was plopped in the driver's seat. Learning on the job is a rough go in college basketball (and life).
Good effort by the players. Unfortunately, they were not put in the best position to win. We do not have an organized press attack and had trouble getting the ball in bounds to players meeting the ball. Our offense turned to organized playground during crunch time. Everything one on one. If it comes down to a last second shot, we are toast. I have not observed any special sets at any time. Homer, Bryce, and Scott always had a special set to go to. This was evident after a timeout. I am sure many of you remember the back pick cuts to a lob pass dunk that Homer ran. Scott even ran a similar play in the National Championship game. Our kids are being shortchanged because they are not given the tools. Discipline and execution of the basketball fundamentals is not and has not been a quality of this program.
Quote from: mj on January 11, 2022, 10:41:32 PM
Rudy played a hell of a game tonight. Would have liked to get the technical foul back and the ill timed turnover but otherwise he was great.
:thumbsup: Only one TO for Preston and 0 for Darius in a combined 50 minutes of basketball. With Anderson out we absolutely could not have asked for more.
My zoom meetings ran over and then my game replay timed out. :'( Fortunately I only missed the last 2:10 of the second overtime and that portion didn't go very well.
I honestly don't know if we can be an outside threat to win at St. Louis or not. Preseason I took that as a given. If we are then we may have to do it from the 7 seed or lower again. Despite our Valley strength of schedule we are very close to being 0-5. As difficult as I know it is, I keep thinking this bunch should be able to win short handed.
Hey guys, Loyola fan here. I like looking through opposing message boards to see what other teams are saying about mine. Looking at this thread it appears that the broadcast did a bad job of explaining the technicals, so I thought I would tell you what I saw, as I was at the game.
The first occurred after a Lucas Williamson 3. Loyola used a screen to get him open, and I believe your player (I'm sorry but I don't know names) was upset about the screen and thought it was an offensive foul. I was on the opposite side so I couldn't hear what he said, but he got in the ref's face and was given the technical.
The second occurred by your pg (I believe #2). He made an extremely tough finish over our pg, Braden Norris. It was super impressive but immediately after making the basket, he ran right up to Braden and got in his face when going back up the court. He was given a technical and immediately turned to his coach saying "I didn't do anything" and your coach yelled "I literally saw you do it right in front of me" before benching him.
Of course take this as you will, but this is what I saw at the game. Best of luck the rest of the season! (Except the next game against Loyola :thumbsup:)
Think of some of the individual plays in regulation over the final 4-5 minutes. Rudy & Krikke literally dribble off of their own legs, due to being closely defended. You have 2 really dumb technical fouls. We have 2 inbounds plays, both were getting held by the defense, but were thrown just a little bit too far outside of their reach/near the sideline. Those are really key individual plays, and each have to do with situation-specific nerves or emotions. The only way that you can coach such a thing, is to counsel when they happen in-game, so if this comes up again, they have been there/done that.
On a side note, I was wondering when the refs were reviewing the pass to see who touched it last, do they say to themselves, 'geez, we sure f'ed that up! The defender's arm is hooked around Kithier's back, and gives him a tug, so that he can't get that pass as he should have. Oh well, Loyola ball!'
I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:
Quote from: humbleopinion on January 11, 2022, 09:00:17 AMThis game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing. Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.
All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.
I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court. It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan. Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action.
This is the second time that I have traveled to the Gentile Center and watched Valpo play their hearts out only to be stymied by questionable calls in the last minute of action. I walked out frustrated but proud of the team.
Remember the short but great rivalry Against Detroit mercy?
They had athletic and great players. But what did we always say they were missing? Go back to those threads and see our comments.
We always accused them of street ball, lack of discipline, never any set plays.
Watching this valpo team reminds me of those Detroit teams. Just throw the ball out there and let them play.
Quote from: Jdubs on January 12, 2022, 12:44:57 AM
Hey guys, Loyola fan here. I like looking through opposing message boards to see what other teams are saying about mine. Looking at this thread it appears that the broadcast did a bad job of explaining the technicals, so I thought I would tell you what I saw, as I was at the game.
The first occurred after a Lucas Williamson 3. Loyola used a screen to get him open, and I believe your player (I'm sorry but I don't know names) was upset about the screen and thought it was an offensive foul. I was on the opposite side so I couldn't hear what he said, but he got in the ref's face and was given the technical.
The second occurred by your pg (I believe #2). He made an extremely tough finish over our pg, Braden Norris. It was super impressive but immediately after making the basket, he ran right up to Braden and got in his face when going back up the court. He was given a technical and immediately turned to his coach saying "I didn't do anything" and your coach yelled "I literally saw you do it right in front of me" before benching him.
Of course take this as you will, but this is what I saw at the game. Best of luck the rest of the season! (Except the next game against Loyola :thumbsup:)
Ruedinger wasn't benched after the technical.
Quote from: humbleopinion on January 12, 2022, 06:46:11 AM
I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:
Quote from: humbleopinion on January 11, 2022, 09:00:17 AMThis game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing. Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.
All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.
I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court. It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan. Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action.
Because they lost and we are sick of losing. They ONLY come out with that intensity when we play good teams, and most of the time we still lose just close enough to call it a moral victory. We get our hopes up for next game and then come out flat against a mediocre team and lose again. It's been six years. It's time to win of move on to somebody who can.
Honest question. Would love to hear valpo fans thoughts.
Does Alec Peters score as many points under Lottich? Does Alec make near as many three's in a Lottich lead team?
So last year we go into Loyola and play our hearts out with an inferior talented team and almost win but, they had a guy named Krutwig so we really didn't expect to win right?
So this year we add a bunch of talent, Loyola doesn't have Krutwig and, we lose. Did we expect to win? Better talent, same result. same coach.
Quote from: vok22 on January 12, 2022, 08:40:52 AM
Quote from: humbleopinion on January 12, 2022, 06:46:11 AM
I started this thread with the following hopes for the team:
Quote from: humbleopinion on January 11, 2022, 09:00:17 AMThis game will be a challenge for the Beacons who still are trying to find their footing. Kevion will need to continue hitting threes, eight footers will have to start falling for Kobe, Kithier will need to be a force on the boards -- all this to keep the game close.
All three of my hopes were realized, and the game was close.
I am amazed that the posters on this board cannot give credit to a team that came in 15 point underdogs and took it to the Ramblers on their home court. It was clear that they came out with fire in their bellies and executed a strong game plan. Even when put into foul trouble, the players maintained their intensity challenging shots and forcing the action.
Because they lost and we are sick of losing. They ONLY come out with that intensity when we play good teams, and most of the time we still lose just close enough to call it a moral victory. We get our hopes up for next game and then come out flat against a mediocre team and lose again. It's been six years. It's time to win of move on to somebody who can.
"No such things as moral victories. Show me somebody who's all right with losing, and I'll show you a loser," Chris Paul.
I think the root of the frustration for me is this:
If the team that played Loyola came out at UNI and SIU we would have won those games(or at least one of them) and then played Loyola on double over time in their own court.
That's a completely different dynamic than what we saw and attitudes would have matched.
We would have wanted more wins, what fan base doesn't. but there would be a more reasonable, we played tough and it's harder to win away games etc etc. reaction from most on the board.
Instead we see what the team could be but only in very specific situations. It's the inconsistency, more than any other issue to me that remains the thing that most frustrates me.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 12, 2022, 06:47:41 AMWatching this valpo team reminds me of those Detroit teams. Just throw the ball out there and let them play.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 12, 2022, 08:53:24 AMDoes Alec Peters score as many points under Lottich? Does Alec make near as many three's in a Lottich lead team?
Good point and questions. Unfortunately this could take 500 words just to touch on the high points. I don't even want to try a detailed answer other than to say that Alec would be less of a focus for many reasons.
For all our frustrations with the offensive system, it's fair to note that outside of Krikke, very few players have much experience in the system. The few guys that excel in it leave. Picture last night's team with Clay, JFL, and Jacob O on it. Or even two of the three. Contrast that with Loyola who has multiple guys in their rotation with 2-4 years in their system. You can't simply plug and play with transfers each and every year. Kobe is beginning to look the part of star on the court. And my guess is if he can get another year, it will be elsewhere. And you can't tell me Krikke's phone (or his AAU coach's phone) won't be ringing this offseason as well.
A significant aspect of coaching is getting the players in a situation where they can utilize their strengths an be successful. Krikke had three shots and according to the announcer Loyola was playing small. Some of these guys may be new but they have had ample time to acclimate into the system. There is nothing complicated about what they do.
Some people live and die with the past...it is time to forget about Alec Peters, Homer and Bryce Drew. It is silly to compare them with the competition today in the MVC. Every coach has a different system. There is absolutely no comparison of competition in the Valley to the Horizon or Summit leagues; overall complete roster makeups of these teams and level of play. Deal with it folks! Yesterday is gone. Let's give credit for a great effort vs. LU. Coach had the guys prepared and they responded but ran out of gas...short the team leader and point guard who was replaced by a walk-on and another frosh but still put up as fight against a veteran team listed in the National rankings, playing at home and was as 15-point favorite.
Let's hope the intensity continues this weekend.
Quote from: valpo64 on January 12, 2022, 12:43:58 PM
Let's give credit for a great effort vs. LU. Coach had the guys prepared and they responded but ran out of gas...short the team leader and point guard who was replaced by a walk-on and another frosh but still put up as fight against a veteran team listed in the National rankings, playing at home and was as 15-point favorite.
Let's hope the intensity continues this weekend.
I'm sorry but I now tune out when I hear excuses and rationalizations for losses. It has become a broken record. Every time the team loses there is another variation of the same litany of reasons. Today, it is the absence of Anderson. Our point guards—a freshman and a walk-on— scored 10 points (50% overall, 67% from 2-point, 40% from 3-point) and only made 1 turnover in 50 minutes of play, which happened with 1:12 to go in regulation and did not lead to a Loyola score, so didn't hurt. That should have been good enough.
I also do not believe in moral victories. I don't care if Valpo "put up a fight against a veteran team." I thought we were supposed to be a "veteran team" with all the transfers. I thought we were supposed to match well with a Loyola team without Cameron Krutwig. The simple truth is that this was another loss that should have been a win—with 1:20 left in the 2nd half VU had a 6-point lead—and Valpo is 1-4, sitting in 9th place.
Valpo64 - simply asking how a certain player would be used on this team. If the current coach would play to his strengths. If that player would get open looks at 3 in this scheme as he did in the previous scheme. I think we know the answer....
Apparently, I was watching a different game than some of you. What I observed was Matt out coaching Valentine from beginning to end. We controlled the game. We dictated the pace. We continuously frustrated their entire rotation defensively. Valentine looked lost to me.
So why didn't we win? Some guy starts jacking up NBA 3's and hit them all. None of them were in the flow of the offense. They looked desperate, as in "if all else fails, jack up long 3's and pray." That wasn't coaching. None of it was by design. They didn't run him through picks and screens to free him up like Kampe used to do with Travis Bader. If even 1 of those ill-advised 3's had missed the mark, their home winning streak was history. They were desperate, and they pulled a rabbit out of a hat. So God bless 'em.
What is on us were sloppy, inexcusable turnovers on inbounds passes by veteran players that should never let that happen. Regardless of the unconscious 3-point shooting, we had that game if we did nothing more than grab 2 passes and hang onto the freaking ball.
Norris swishing one NBA 3 after another in the clutch was clearly the difference. It reminded me of A.J. Graves doing the same for Butler against us at home years ago. I normally don't like to call out teenagers/young adults playing a game on national TV in front of a lot of people. I'm sure most of us would not do nearly as well. That being said, Sheldon turns the ball over on a very nonchalant inbounds pass, throws two equally nonchalant passes at half court, incurs a lane violation with no one standing next to him, and waits at the sideline at half court dribbling out the clock with no intention of running a play, making a pass, or shooting a few seconds earlier so we could potentially get a rebound or put back. His last second heave was out of desperation instead of an advantage that the play started with. Please keep that play in the NBA with Curry and Jordan where it belongs. All of this within a few minutes at the end of the game. Sheldon should watch the film, listen to some coaching, swallow some pride, then be given a vote of confidence as a starter in the next game.
Sorry WH, we didn't control the pace in the second half. You noticed they extended their defense? Did you noticed they high pressured and caused a lot more turnovers in the second half. These are adjustments made by Loyola and the stats back them up.
Don't think all of Loyola's 3 point shots were desperation prayers. I know a big one was a set play out of a timeout.
We can say this and we can say that. One thing is not subjective and concrete. Lottich seems to lose a lot of games in crunch and the losses are adding up.
For you guys that keep coming up with excuses, Lottich's number aren't helping your arguments.
This team has come a long way since November. From struggles with D2 teams to making a D1 Top 25 team go into 2 OT. The Turn Overs and poor calls against them made the difference in W/L. Granted a Ref has the right to ring someone up with a T - but usually there is a warning. Home Team rules. Hoping the The Beacons see the Light and continue with the focus on D and good things will happen. :thumbsup: You've got to believe that this was a pivotal game!!! GO FREAKIN' BEACONS
The second half comeback against SIU and this game against Loyola are no doubt indicative of two things:
1. The team is making progress
2. Matt Lottich has not lost the team as things presently stand.
HOWEVER, I (and I know many others on this board feel the same way) am at the point where simple progress isn't enough. I know we've had injuries. I know we've had transfers. I know we've had growing pains as we've tried to mesh the new pieces and figure out the chemistry and all that; but guess what: so do most other teams in this league and somehow they figure out by and large how not to constantly lose. We are in year 6 of Matt Lottich's tenure and year 5 of the MVC. Loyola came into the league in far worse shape as a program and by year 5 was beginning to flex its muscles as the dominant power in the MVC en route to an A-10 invite. I'm not saying we should strive to be in the A-10 one day I am more than happy in the MVC but it's time to either commit monetarily to the program or if we can't at least find a coach who can paper over our glaring shortcomings as a program again (such that that may even be possible). We NEED to go in a different direction. Lottich has had ample time to show that he is the right man for the job and unfortunately he has not shown the consistency necessary to inspire confidence. Every year is Groundhog Day for this program with a few exceptions.
1. Mediocre to bad OOC. Except for the one year we started out 8-0
2. Inconsistent to start out MVC play. Except for the one year we started out 5-1
3. Improved play with some close losses. (We're somewhere between step 3 and step 4 right now)
4. A solid effort or two (and maybe even a win against a team or two we had no business beating. See: Drake last year
5. A stretch where we actually win a few games and maybe avoid Thursday.
6. Falling short of our goals as many players transfer and the whole thing crumbles to dust again. Transfers are a part of the modern game but we lose important contributors every single year. I have no doubt we're going to see another wave after this season that makes us doubt the program's stability as we have to rebuild yet again. It's like we're coached by the itsy bitsy spider or something. We climb up towards respectability in the MVC the rain (transfers) washes us out. We get new transfers and start our same climb through the same process again. I'm tired of watching Coach Sisyphus push the boulder up the hill to see it fall down to the bottom again. It's time to start getting results or find someone who can. I don't mean half a conference season or three games in St Louis either. I mean consistently being a top 4 program at minimum. By year 4 (I think it was) when we joined the HL, we were a top 4 program in a league that wasn't significantly worse at the time than the current MVC is. I know they aren't coming through that door but there is a marked difference in coaching between the Drews and Lottich and we CAN have that caliber of coaching again one day.
We are starving for wins and success. To prove we are a good program to our new peers. To prove it wasn't a mistake for them to invite us. And it is clear Lottich can't help us in this regard at this point. This is department wide too. We've seen good improvement in other sports but we STILL don't have a SINGLE MVC team sport championship to our name in FIVE years. This fact alone is starting to really weigh on me as a fan and I know I can't be the only one bothered by this.
Yes, this is a tougher league than the one we left but Loyola eventually handled the transition. What will the excuses be if (when?) Belmont and Murray State who are coming from a worse league than the one we left mind you (remember the HL was somewhere in like the 14-16 range when we left the OVC is usually outside or around 20) come in and perform well either right out of the gate or shortly after joining? What if UIC (assuming they get an invite) marshals its considerable resources and builds a winner like Loyola did? What then? I get that we don't have the money of the Chicago schools or even of Belmont but surely we can be a better program than we've shown right? I don't even know anymore.
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 12, 2022, 05:26:31 PM
Sorry WH, we didn't control the pace in the second half. You noticed they extended their defense? Did you noticed they high pressured and caused a lot more turnovers in the second half. These are adjustments made by Loyola and the stats back them up.
Don't think all of Loyola's 3 point shots were desperation prayers. I know a big one was a set play out of a timeout.
We can say this and we can say that. One thing is not subjective and concrete. Lottich seems to lose a lot of games in crunch and the losses are adding up.
For you guys that keep coming up with excuses, Lottich's number aren't helping your arguments.
Loyola is 12-2. They're loaded with veteran players. They were at home where they have a gazillion game winning streak. Valpo came in 8-8. We were 16 point underdogs. We started a walk-on freshman point guard in the place of a 5th year senior. After trailing the entire game, Loyola pulls a win out of their butt with a bunch of miracle 3's and you don't think Valentine got out coached? Get the name Matt Lottich out of your head and think again.
Who outcoached who is completely subjective. It's a loss. Plain and simple.
Quote from: wh on January 12, 2022, 09:53:41 PM
Quote from: oklahomamick on January 12, 2022, 05:26:31 PM
Sorry WH, we didn't control the pace in the second half. You noticed they extended their defense? Did you noticed they high pressured and caused a lot more turnovers in the second half. These are adjustments made by Loyola and the stats back them up.
Don't think all of Loyola's 3 point shots were desperation prayers. I know a big one was a set play out of a timeout.
We can say this and we can say that. One thing is not subjective and concrete. Lottich seems to lose a lot of games in crunch and the losses are adding up.
For you guys that keep coming up with excuses, Lottich's number aren't helping your arguments.
Loyola is 12-2. They're loaded with veteran players. They were at home where they have a gazillion game winning streak. Valpo came in 8-8. We were 16 point underdogs. We started a walk-on freshman point guard in the place of a 5th year senior. After trailing the entire game, Loyola pulls a win out of their butt with a bunch of miracle 3's and you don't think Valentine got out coached? Get the name Matt Lottich out of your head and think again.
But WHY were we 8-8 coming in? WHY were we 16 point underdogs? It's because we have blown 5+ games that we should have won if we didn't come out flat, unmotivated, lacking the intensity we showed last night, and poorly coached. You were just as high on this team as I was before the season. Now you are using our record as an excuse why we lost. Our record shouldn't be this bad if we were well coached!!! The players on this team are better than 8-9. Also, our freshmen point guards played well, so that excuse is invalid. And they may have hit a barrage of threes in the second overtime, but they also missed a lot of threes they should have made earlier in the game.
Quote from: vok22 on January 12, 2022, 10:48:36 PMQuote from: wh on January 12, 2022, 09:53:41 PMQuote from: oklahomamick on January 12, 2022, 05:26:31 PMSorry WH, we didn't control the pace in the second half. You noticed they extended their defense? Did you noticed they high pressured and caused a lot more turnovers in the second half. These are adjustments made by Loyola and the stats back them up. Don't think all of Loyola's 3 point shots were desperation prayers. I know a big one was a set play out of a timeout. We can say this and we can say that. One thing is not subjective and concrete. Lottich seems to lose a lot of games in crunch and the losses are adding up. For you guys that keep coming up with excuses, Lottich's number aren't helping your arguments.
Loyola is 12-2. They're loaded with veteran players. They were at home where they have a gazillion game winning streak. Valpo came in 8-8. We were 16 point underdogs. We started a walk-on freshman point guard in the place of a 5th year senior. After trailing the entire game, Loyola pulls a win out of their butt with a bunch of miracle 3's and you don't think Valentine got out coached? Get the name Matt Lottich out of your head and think again.
But WHY were we 8-8 coming in? WHY were we 16 point underdogs? It's because we have blown 5+ games that we should have won if we didn't come out flat, unmotivated, lacking the intensity we showed last night, and poorly coached. You were just as high on this team as I was before the season. Now you are using our record as an excuse why we lost. Our record shouldn't be this bad if we were well coached!!! The players on this team are better than 8-9. Also, our freshmen point guards played well, so that excuse is invalid. And they may have hit a barrage of threes in the second overtime, but they also missed a lot of threes they should have made earlier in the game.
Right. Norris's second OT performance was just the law of averages at work evening things out. The difference is Loyola can still pull out wins on off nights which is what good well-coached teams do. It's what we used to be able to do back when good and well-coached were adjectives that were appropriate to describe our team and program. Now I know the latter isn't true and I am becoming increasingly skeptical of the former even though the potential for it to be true is there.
That's the problem though. It's always potential Potential Potential If this if that and if some other thing. If we made more shots. If we rebounded better. If our defense was better. If we didn't dig such a deep hole. If we had executed better down the stretch. If we shot free throws better. If we hadn't committed so many turnovers. If we had forced more turnovers. Take your pick. All of these excuses can account for at least one loss this year and in past years as well.
The facts\results are in: Lottich recruits well every year but never gets results and never delivers at least not on a consistent basis and no amount of wishing and hoping is going to make that change. I'm tired. This era has beaten me down to where I can't even become excited by an obvious sign of progress because I know exactly how it's going to end. We've all seen this movie before.
You guys should take your posts over to the Loyola board. They'll love you over there.
Quote from: wh on January 12, 2022, 11:23:37 PMYou guys should take your posts over to the Loyola board. They'll love you over there.
I respect you very much as a poster and I do not mean what I am about to ask as an attack in any way but I have to ask: Would you have this much grace for anyone in any profession who fails this consistently over such a long period of years other than a person who you believe is a good man of strong character and values (which Matt Lottich is obviously) who represents the institution you attended and obviously love? I ask because I want to know if you're just naturally this optimistic and forgiving or if there is an obvious emotional attachment that colors your perception of the state of the program? Again, I'm not asking this as an attack or anything I just seriously want to know.
Wh
We did watch the same game. We watched it from different perspectives. Not knowing Loyola's game plan and my inability to discern intricate coaching maneuvers while watching the tv broadcast, you could be very precise in your judgement. I cannot tell. We did have great intensity and were mentally involved in the competitive aspect of the game. There are many parts to coaching. I tend to focus on execution which is the result of teaching and practice. A great coach also told me that a coach has to have a "feel" for the game. This intangible might dictate changes, substitutions, and general game management. At about the 7 minute mark with a good lead one could sense Loyola picking up the defensive pressure and forcing us out of what we were doing. Something special could have been set up to get one of our bigs on the block or King on the block without Loyola help. Also after the technical and the point guard dribbling into a triple team on the sidelines, it was apparent the team needed to regroup. Finally in regulation a time out to review fundamentals. Getting the ball in bounds, MEETING all passes, and protecting the ball could have been helpful. These fundamental things should have been worked on in practice but even great players need to be reminded and be refocused. Hindsight is a scary thing. But if one can learn from it, it can be valuable. As far as making NBA threes, if a player is open within his range, has balance, and the green light to shoot, a good percentage are going to go in.
According to KenPom, Valpo is 39 places behind being an average team among the 358.
Quote from: NativeCheesehead on January 12, 2022, 10:19:44 PM
Who outcoached who is completely subjective. It's a loss. Plain and simple.
While I continue to hold some hopes of Lottich becoming a great coach, I would not be able to give a high recommendation for any Power 5, BE, AA, MW, A-10, WC, MAC or Valley school to hire him as either a head coach replacement or upgrade.
I hate ganging up on anyone so I would love to be able to join WH in his defense of Lottich. Sorry but I can't and this season obviously needs to turn around pretty quickly.
I'm with you, "wh"...some people will never be happy and will always find something to complain about...for every good or positive comment about Matt and/or the team, they will always come back with "yes, but...." followed by a negative comment or two. I guess it goes with the territory...it is what it is.
Yes! WH & 64, expect negative comments when a 10 point lead is blown with 8 minutes left in the game.
Expect negative comments when the team is below .500
Expect negative comments when you can't keep players for more than 1 year.
Expect negative comments when the team is constantly playing Thursday play in game.
Why are you shocked by negative comments when that stuff is going on?
Please don't make me drag up our MVC record under Lottich and our overall record since that smoke and mirrors 8-0 start in 17-18... It's really depressing to have to dig through all those lost seasons and tabulate the results. I'll do it again if I have to in case anyone needs a reminder of just how bad we've been and how far we've fallen under Lottich's leadership but I really hope you don't make me do it. I know it's the same tired argument I've used many times before but it's really the only argument the Lottich skeptics need to prove their case and unfortunately it just gets stronger and stronger every year.
I had a dream that Valpo is going to win the next six games. I saw these guys come to realize they can play with and beat any team in this conference after the Loyola game, call me :crazy:
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 13, 2022, 07:25:50 PM
I had a dream that Valpo is going to win the next six games. I saw these guys come to realize they can play with and beat any team in this conference after the Loyola game, call me :crazy:
I think I will accept your invitation to call you crazy.
Quote from: vok22 on January 13, 2022, 08:37:13 PM
Quote from: Just Sayin on January 13, 2022, 07:25:50 PM
I had a dream that Valpo is going to win the next six games. I saw these guys come to realize they can play with and beat any team in this conference after the Loyola game, call me :crazy:
I think I will accept your invitation to call you crazy.
;D