This comment by Andy Katz fits with a rumor I recently had heard as well:
"Butler has expressed interest in joining the Atlantic 10 and replacing Temple, according to multiple sources. The Bulldogs are intrigued by the major media markets and, of course, the increase in competition with Xavier, Saint Louis and Dayton among others. The A-10 will lose Temple in the fall of 2013 and must add a quality basketball program."
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/53114/3-point-shot-3 (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/53114/3-point-shot-3)
Also mentioned in that same ESPN piece is that Rex Walters, currently head coach at San Francisco and former Valpo assistant, could be in line for Barry Collier's and Doc Sadler's former position as head coach at Nebraska, coaching in the Big Ten.
2. The Nebraska pool to replace the fired Doc Sadler will get interesting with Ohio's John Groce, a former Ohio State assistant in the Big Ten, now a major player, according to sources. San Francisco's Rex Walters would also be an intriguing choice after playing in the region at Kansas and being born in Nebraska.
Much more realistic than their desire of being in the Big East. I could see this happening, unless someone from the MVC decides to make such a switch, in which case Butler would be considered for the MVC.
The move to the A-10 would be a good fit for them long term. I wouldnt be surprised if they jumped.
Several media sources are now reporting this. I don't fault them for trying to better themselves. We did the same thing. If it happens, I wish them the best.
Say that this happens, which is actually a high likelihood. What school does the HL replace them with? I actually like Oakland as a possibility. Not sure if Detroit will nix this as I have heard that they would, but they bring some solid overall sports teams to the league. Solid basketball teams traditionally on M&W side, good soccer, competitive baseball, consistent champions in M&W swimming/diving, etc. Say no to IUPUI and IPFW, who would undoubtedly put in for the conference on a moment's notice.
The stories in the media accompanied by an absence of denial by Butler seems to confirm the validity of this rumor I had heard in a recent conversation. I would hate to lose Butler, which has proven itself as a first-class program with a large devoted fan base. However, if they do leave the Horizon League, I hope VU does everything it can to continue an annual game with the Bulldogs.
Also, you have to wonder who would be invited to take Butler's spot in the league. There seems to be no strong candidate. IUPUI and IPFW would fit as travel partners for Valpo, though I think most here would prefer Oakland be invited instead since the rivalry between VU and Oakland already exists and their coach is well-liked among Valpo fans. On the other hand, I have heard Detroit would object to Oakland. Other suggestions?
Honestly though, no likely school comes to mind as a choice that would come close to filling the gap left by Butler.
And all along I thought they were moving to the Big 10!!! ;)
Seriously, not withstanding their great performance in men's basketball (other than a 5th seed this year), can they really compete in the A-10?
Let's look at their recent record in the Horizon in revenue sports:
Men's basketball: 5th seed
Women's basketball: 5th
Men's soccer: 8th
Women's soocer: 6th
Baseball: 5th
Softball: 3rd
Valpo's record is better in all of these sports other than women's basketball.
Now throw on the added travel and time away from the classroom to travel to St. Bonnie, or U Mass or Charlotte, plus long bus rides ro Duquene and others? Ask Rick Mejurus at St. Louis how he feels about the travel in the A-10.
Their egos may say GO, but does it really make sense? What about the exit fee from the Horizon?
We all know they don't have a football team ;) but of course they have a really good cross country traditon. Makes all the sense in the world to fly kids from tennis and swimming all over the place. Huh???? :crazy:
I assume Butler would go back to their 'we are too good to schedule you' mentality, even though we have beaten them 4 times in a row now. The 'smug' in Indianapolis is getting even thicker...
Quote from: valpotx on March 12, 2012, 01:29:51 PMThe 'smug' in Indianapolis is getting even thicker...
just don't let it collide with george clooney's oscar acceptance speech ;)
*man, i hope somebody gets this reference, or i'm gonna feel real stupid*
Quote from: vu72 on March 12, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
And all along I thought they were moving to the Big 10!!! ;)
Seriously, not withstanding their great performance in men's basketball (other than a 5th seed this year), can they really compete in the A-10?
Let's look at their recent record in the Horizon in revenue sports:
Men's basketball: 5th seed
Women's basketball: 5th
Men's soccer: 8th
Women's soocer: 6th
Baseball: 5th
Softball: 3rd
Valpo's record is better in all of these sports other than women's basketball.
Now throw on the added travel and time away from the classroom to travel to St. Bonnie, or U Mass or Charlotte, plus long bus rides ro Duquene and others? Ask Rick Mejurus at St. Louis how he feels about the travel in the A-10.
Their egos may say GO, but does it really make sense? What about the exit fee from the Horizon?
We all know they don't have a football team ;) but of course they have a really good cross country traditon. Makes all the sense in the world to fly kids from tennis and swimming all over the place. Huh???? :crazy:
The A-10 doesn't play everyone home and home. They divide their league into divisions and play schools in their division home and home and schools in the other division either at home or on the road each year. So travel isn't as bad as you would think.
I doubt Butler really cares if it finishes in last place in all sports as long as their basketball team is competitive.
The HL doesn't have a huge exit fee, but Butler would give up their rights to all past earned NCAA money. The rest of the HL teams would divide up their share.
In the past Detroit has blocked Oakland from joining the HL. All HL decisions need to be made by a 3/4 vote by HL schools. Detroit was able to get Loyola and Butler to go along with them to keep Oakland out. If Butler leaves, I think the HL could now add Oakland since Detroit wouldn't have enough votes to keep them out.
I don't think IUPUI or IPFW would get enough votes to get invited to the HL. I think we would be better served to stay at 9 teams than to add either one of them.
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 12, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: vu72 on March 12, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
And all along I thought they were moving to the Big 10!!! ;)
Seriously, not withstanding their great performance in men's basketball (other than a 5th seed this year), can they really compete in the A-10?
Let's look at their recent record in the Horizon in revenue sports:
Men's basketball: 5th seed
Women's basketball: 5th
Men's soccer: 8th
Women's soocer: 6th
Baseball: 5th
Softball: 3rd
Valpo's record is better in all of these sports other than women's basketball.
Now throw on the added travel and time away from the classroom to travel to St. Bonnie, or U Mass or Charlotte, plus long bus rides to Duquesne and others? Ask Rick Majerus at St. Louis how he feels about the travel in the A-10.
Their egos may say GO, but does it really make sense? What about the exit fee from the Horizon?
We all know they don't have a football team ;) but of course they have a really good cross country tradition. Makes all the sense in the world to fly kids from tennis and swimming all over the place. Huh???? :crazy:
The A-10 doesn't play everyone home and home. They divide their league into divisions and play schools in their division home and home and schools in the other division either at home or on the road each year. So travel isn't as bad as you would think.
I doubt Butler really cares if it finishes in last place in all sports as long as their basketball team is competitive.
The HL doesn't have a huge exit fee, but Butler would give up their rights to all past earned NCAA money. The rest of the HL teams would divide up their share.
In the past Detroit has blocked Oakland from joining the HL. All HL decisions need to be made by a 3/4 vote by HL schools. Detroit was able to get Loyola and Butler to go along with them to keep Oakland out. If Butler leaves, I think the HL could now add Oakland since Detroit wouldn't have enough votes to keep them out.
I don't think IUPUI or IPFW would get enough votes to get invited to the HL. I think we would be better served to stay at 9 teams than to add either one of them.
In the future, please refer to this post when considering the feasibility of Butler's prospective jump to the A-10 or the additions of any Summit League member to the H League.
This is the authoritative take.
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 12, 2012, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: vu72 on March 12, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
And all along I thought they were moving to the Big 10!!! ;)
Seriously, not withstanding their great performance in men's basketball (other than a 5th seed this year), can they really compete in the A-10?
Let's look at their recent record in the Horizon in revenue sports:
Men's basketball: 5th seed
Women's basketball: 5th
Men's soccer: 8th
Women's soocer: 6th
Baseball: 5th
Softball: 3rd
Valpo's record is better in all of these sports other than women's basketball.
Now throw on the added travel and time away from the classroom to travel to St. Bonnie, or U Mass or Charlotte, plus long bus rides ro Duquene and others? Ask Rick Mejurus at St. Louis how he feels about the travel in the A-10.
Their egos may say GO, but does it really make sense? What about the exit fee from the Horizon?
We all know they don't have a football team ;) but of course they have a really good cross country traditon. Makes all the sense in the world to fly kids from tennis and swimming all over the place. Huh???? :crazy:
The A-10 doesn't play everyone home and home. They divide their league into divisions and play schools in their division home and home and schools in the other division either at home or on the road each year. So travel isn't as bad as you would think.
I doubt Butler really cares if it finishes in last place in all sports as long as their basketball team is competitive.
The HL doesn't have a huge exit fee, but Butler would give up their rights to all past earned NCAA money. The rest of the HL teams would divide up their share.
In the past Detroit has blocked Oakland from joining the HL. All HL decisions need to be made by a 3/4 vote by HL schools. Detroit was able to get Loyola and Butler to go along with them to keep Oakland out. If Butler leaves, I think the HL could now add Oakland since Detroit wouldn't have enough votes to keep them out.
I don't think IUPUI or IPFW would get enough votes to get invited to the HL. I think we would be better served to stay at 9 teams than to add either one of them.
That point pretty much sums up the whole thought process and I can't say that I blame them. They have a chance to improve their brand in basketball and joining the A10 would certainly do that. Their ability to raise money for the University has taken off like a rocket here in Indy since back to back national championship game appearances so trying to capitalize on that only makes sense.
Quote from: valpotx on March 12, 2012, 01:29:51 PM
I assume Butler would go back to their 'we are too good to schedule you' mentality, even though we have beaten them 4 times in a row now. The 'smug' in Indianapolis is getting even thicker...
If Butler moves onto the A-10, why would they continue the Valpo series? What would they gain? It's possible they do continue the series, as they play Evansville most years but I don't see it. It's not a lock for a win (see multiple losses) and it's not going to help the RPI. Why continue?
I would say that you continue it because it is a team that is usually in the RPI range of 80-130 or so, and still provides good competition. I believe Valpo should only schedule teams that have this type of RPI potential, instead of the low 200s/300s.
Quote from: valpotx on March 12, 2012, 04:26:51 PM
I would say that you continue it because it is a team that is usually in the RPI range of 80-130 or so, and still provides good competition. I believe Valpo should only schedule teams that have this type of RPI potential, instead of the low 200s/300s.
I'd agree with you but there's a problem. That games doesn't have the potential to be a good win, but it does have the possibility to be a bad loss. Don't get me wrong I would love for it to continue, but I don't see it happening.
I agree... if Butler does go to the A-10, then the "rivalry" games will end again. Butler fans will insist that the Bulldogs only schedule teams that they will want to see Butler play, and have good games with. Our winning the last four games against them wouldn't help our cause of staying on their schedule.
If Butler leaves (hope so) it will be because we drove them out. 4 in a row in MBB, and 2-0 in WBB this year. Now, a win in the PFL would be the icing on the cake,or the slobber on the Bulldog. GO VALPO! :D
It strikes me that some of the fan anger against Butler is misdirected. Valpo would miss out on a fine in-state rival on many levels. The league would be weaker with their departure.
It is far better just to regularly beat Butler and have them as a rival.
Maybe as Butler's travel partner we will go to the A10 also... the Butler effect? right!! ::)
Quote from: setshot on March 12, 2012, 06:54:24 PMIf Butler leaves (hope so) it will be because we drove them out. 4 in a row in MBB, and 2-0 in WBB this year. Now, a win in the PFL would be the icing on the cake,or the slobber on the Bulldog. GO VALPO! :D
One bad season for Butler Men's Basketball (Which has dominated the league the past few years) wouldn't mean that Valpo drove them out.
I assume this opened up because of Temple. Otherwise I would consider this to be a bit pathetic (finally shut out of ncaa tourney, gonna take our marbles and go play elsewhere). I trust it is because of Temple, which still reminds us they have been waiting for such an opportunity. Food for thought...
Quote from: VUfan on March 12, 2012, 07:41:03 PM
Maybe as Butler's travel partner we will go to the A10 also... the Butler effect? right!! ::)
Very clever post.
That would be something though if Butler left
and took someone else from the HL along. Anyone up for the A-16, a la the WAC of the mid 90's?
A Butler move -- which seems possible if not probable -- would hurt the HL, academically as well as athletically. Conferences need good academic schools like Butler. And the move would hurt VU with the loss of an in-state rival.
I can't blame them, though, if they feel it's the right move. VU (correctly) determined the Horizon was a better league, for a number of reasons, than the Mid-Con.
Sometimes I wish the old Indiana Collegiate Conference was still around. Life was simpler then. And less expensive.
]
Paul
Quote from: Gametime on March 12, 2012, 07:55:40 PM
Quote from: setshot on March 12, 2012, 06:54:24 PMIf Butler leaves (hope so) it will be because we drove them out. 4 in a row in MBB, and 2-0 in WBB this year. Now, a win in the PFL would be the icing on the cake,or the slobber on the Bulldog. GO VALPO! :D
One bad season for Butler Men's Basketball (Which has dominated the league the past few years) wouldn't mean that Valpo drove them out.
One sensible post in this entire thread.
Big East? Really? No mature poster on the Butler Board EVER proposed such a thing. The only thought about Big East schools were the basketball only schools around the midwest forming a BBL only league........ Dayton, X, Marquette, Butler, St. Louis, Depaul among others. It makes too much sense so it will never happen. I'm not even going to acknowledge the rest of the self-serving ignorant posts on this thread. You guys are embarrassing yourselves.
As far as the A-10, if it happens then fine. Barry Collier has been the orchestrator of many positive changes for Butler's athletic program. I'm sure if this happens it's been in the plans for awhile. If not, I'm fine with staying in the Horizon. And, I enjoy playing Valpo every year, even when you guys win.
Please don't turn in to most of the other schools message boards in this league and declare supremacy just because you have recent success against the benchmark team. Finish the deal first and win the dang tournament........ or else you'll end up in the NIT seeded BEHIND Cleveland State. Yeah, that just happened.
OK, my rant is done. Most of you know I'm usually pretty even keeled and complimentary of Valpo's program, coaches, team and most of these posters.......... not this time!
We should not even look at IPFW or Oakland. You gain nothing in TV/tradition/history/media. We already have Detroit covered. IPFW is another mediocre state school. IUPUI might give you a small measure of media in Indy, but you'd be fighting Butler. We need to think bigger and broader. Poach a good program from a lesser conference -- Belmont/Nashville comes to mind.
I believe Belmont is moving to the Ohio Valley Conference next season?
Quote from: setshot on March 12, 2012, 06:54:24 PM
If Butler leaves (hope so) it will be because we drove them out. 4 in a row in MBB, and 2-0 in WBB this year. Now, a win in the PFL would be the icing on the cake,or the slobber on the Bulldog. GO VALPO! :D
Yeah, not to tread on you man, but the all time series is still WAY in favor of Butler. As much as I love seeing them lose to us, you can't just say that a few losses did them in. I also don't think that you are being totally serious, but if you are then that is what I have to say.
Quote from: DMvalpo18 on March 12, 2012, 11:30:59 PM
Quote from: setshot on March 12, 2012, 06:54:24 PM
If Butler leaves (hope so) it will be because we drove them out. 4 in a row in MBB, and 2-0 in WBB this year. Now, a win in the PFL would be the icing on the cake,or the slobber on the Bulldog. GO VALPO! :D
Yeah, not to tread on you man, but the all time series is still WAY in favor of Butler. As much as I love seeing them lose to us, you can't just say that a few losses did them in. I also don't think that you are being totally serious, but if you are then that is what I have to say.
Don't forget, setshot is the same guy who was begging Mark LaBarbara to "Drop football", so you can only take him so seriously, or keep humoring him.
Quote from: staxawax on March 12, 2012, 10:04:48 PM
Big East? Really? No mature poster on the Butler Board EVER proposed such a thing.
Are you calling Title a child? ;)
Stax, I just couldn't help noticing the juxtaposition of the first Big Dance absence in quite awhile coupled with this latest story. I threw it out there, but I am by no means ready to level the charge, so to speak. I would certainly assume that it would not be out of fear, that's for sure.
I guess I would hate to see Butler go, in part because as someone who has rooted for Butler in March I would probably feel a little betrayed ;) I know, that's probably irrational on my part. I can certainly see how the A-10 would be attractive, and certainly we abandoned the Mid-Con so who am I crappin' ;)
I think I had gotten used to the idea that Butler wasn't going anywhere and this story kinda came out of nowhere. I know it's not a new story, but I was lulled into thinking it wasn't going to happen for awhile, if ever.
Yes, Belmont is moving to the OVC next season. We had some good games with them a few years back while in school! That would be a fun series each year, but they seem content with their more local OVC.
I really don't know who else we could poach outside of Oakland, that we may want (if this happens of course). I doubt anyone from the A-10, MAC, or MVC would be stolen away. There really aren't that many options out there that figure into the geographic footprint, while still providing competitive athletics.
Quote from: wh on March 12, 2012, 11:53:22 PM
Quote from: staxawax on March 12, 2012, 10:04:48 PM
Big East? Really? No mature poster on the Butler Board EVER proposed such a thing.
Are you calling Title a child? ;)
LOL! No. But he is not a realist. He looks at numbers and ratings and instantly declares Butler has far and away the best talent in the league and will win it easily. He often forgets the game is played on the court by 18-21 year olds.
Hope and pray that Butler stays in the HL. If they leave the conference we might as well have stayed in the Summit League. Conference RPI will drop dramatically and any hope of becoming a 2 bid league is gone. Lets call a spade a spade, this is still Butler's league and if they leave any residuals from their spectacular runs that still give us so much current press will be gone. (I may be overstating it but not much)
I could see interest from a Northern Illinois, or maybe a Bradley or an Illinois State.
And here's a wild card ... does anyone think Ball State would be interested in the move?
Quote from: staxawax on March 12, 2012, 10:04:48 PMOne sensible post in this entire thread.
Big East? Really? No mature poster on the Butler Board EVER proposed such a thing. The only thought about Big East schools were the basketball only schools around the midwest forming a BBL only league........ Dayton, X, Marquette, Butler, St. Louis, Depaul among others. It makes too much sense so it will never happen. I'm not even going to acknowledge the rest of the self-serving ignorant posts on this thread. You guys are embarrassing yourselves.
As far as the A-10, if it happens then fine. Barry Collier has been the orchestrator of many positive changes for Butler's athletic program. I'm sure if this happens it's been in the plans for awhile. If not, I'm fine with staying in the Horizon. And, I enjoy playing Valpo every year, even when you guys win.
Please don't turn in to most of the other schools message boards in this league and declare supremacy just because you have recent success against the benchmark team. Finish the deal first and win the dang tournament........ or else you'll end up in the NIT seeded BEHIND Cleveland State. Yeah, that just happened.
OK, my rant is done. Most of you know I'm usually pretty even keeled and complimentary of Valpo's program, coaches, team and most of these posters.......... not this time!
I would venture to guess most of these posts are simply digs at the always on display superior attitude of the typical Butler poster perfectly displayed here by Stax.
Quote from: milldew72 on March 13, 2012, 08:35:42 AM
I could see interest from a Northern Illinois, or maybe a Bradley or an Illinois State.
And here's a wild card ... does anyone think Ball State would be interested in the move?
NIU is a football school, and the MAC is a perfect fit for that draw for the Huskies.
Bradley doesn't have football, but do they really want to leave the Missouri Valley Conference?
Illinois State is also a football school, and they probably don't want to take the same hit that Bradley or NIU would in RPI.
Ball State would be an academic hit, wouldn't it? Haven't some of their athletes had issues with grades over the years, and cost their programs postseason opportunities?
While thoughtful to consider any of these four schools, I don't see any of them really wanting to leave the conferences they are currently in.
Quote from: valpo84 on March 12, 2012, 11:07:37 PM
We should not even look at IPFW or Oakland. You gain nothing in TV/tradition/history/media. We already have Detroit covered. IPFW is another mediocre state school. IUPUI might give you a small measure of media in Indy, but you'd be fighting Butler. We need to think bigger and broader. Poach a good program from a lesser conference -- Belmont/Nashville comes to mind.
This is outside the box, but if Minnesota State were to upgrade their programs to Division I, should the Horizon League stay 9 teams until then?
One thing would improve if HL stayed at 9: 3 seed would get bye to quarterfinal.
The HL can't stay at 9 teams. We need to add a school with a baseball team or the HL will lose it's automatic bid.
Quote from: vu72 on March 12, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
And all along I thought they were moving to the Big 10!!! ;)
Seriously, not withstanding their great performance in men's basketball (other than a 5th seed this year), can they really compete in the A-10?
Let's look at their recent record in the Horizon in revenue sports:
Men's basketball: 5th seed
Women's basketball: 5th
Men's soccer: 8th
Women's soocer: 6th
Baseball: 5th
Softball: 3rd
Valpo's record is better in all of these sports other than women's basketball.
Now throw on the added travel and time away from the classroom to travel to St. Bonnie, or U Mass or Charlotte, plus long bus rides ro Duquene and others? Ask Rick Mejurus at St. Louis how he feels about the travel in the A-10.
Their egos may say GO, but does it really make sense? What about the exit fee from the Horizon?
We all know they don't have a football team ;) but of course they have a really good cross country traditon. Makes all the sense in the world to fly kids from tennis and swimming all over the place. Huh???? :crazy:
Since I arrived at Butler in 1981, they've been in the same conference/league, so I don't know a lot about this stuff. My preference would be to stay put, but I also understand the reasons why a move might make sense.
As for vu72's "ego" comment, I'll put it back to him. Valpo has made two conference moves since 1981, so were those driven by Valpo's "ego"? I think they were, since they were basically looking out for their own best interest. If Butler leaves, it will be for the same reason.
I may be a bit naive, but I assume that Barry Collier didn't start looking into this 4 days ago when ESPN.com ran the report. I also trust that he's not going to suggest a move that puts Butler in a worse position financially or competitively.
As for travel, the A-10 plays an unbalanced schedule, so mid-west teams only play at roughly half of the east coast teams each year, while playing the closer teams (SLU, X, Dayton) home and home. Since Butler already charters to CSU/YSU and UWM/UWGB, there isn't a huge change in terms of travel for MBB.
It would impact travel for some other teams. However, several non-revenue sports (golf, tennis, swimming, track, cross country) do not play round robin schedules within the conference. Instead, they play a regional schedule and the conference championship is determined at the conference tournament.
Butler may be walking away from some $ due them from their NCAA tournament wins, but I assume that Temple may be leaving a few $ in the coffers when they leave the A-10 that could be offered up to offset anything that Butler loses (same for any exit fees).
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 13, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
The HL can't stay at 9 teams. We need to add a school with a baseball team or the HL will lose it's automatic bid.
You need 8 teams to maintain your auto bid, not 10.
I've seen it theorized on Twitter that Butler is also using this to extract a better $ deal (a la Texas in the Big 12) from or better teams into the HL. Don't discount that as a possibility.
(I actually would like it if it were the second case... wouldn't it be something if the HL pulled a switcheroo for the 2nd time and SLU, X, etc. ended up in the HL?)
Quote from: BigMoSmithFan on March 13, 2012, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 13, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
The HL can't stay at 9 teams. We need to add a school with a baseball team or the HL will lose it's automatic bid.
You need 8 teams to maintain your auto bid, not 10.
Not every team in the HL has a baseball team, so to lose one of the 6 teams would take away the auto-bid for baseball. (Green Bay, Cleveland State, Loyola, and Detroit don't sponsor baseball.) If Butler did leave, baseball, and proverbially softball, would lose their NCAA bids.
Quote from: valporun on March 13, 2012, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: BigMoSmithFan on March 13, 2012, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 13, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
The HL can't stay at 9 teams. We need to add a school with a baseball team or the HL will lose it's automatic bid.
You need 8 teams to maintain your auto bid, not 10.
Not every team in the HL has a baseball team, so to lose one of the 6 teams would take away the auto-bid for baseball. (Green Bay, Cleveland State, Loyola, and Detroit don't sponsor baseball.) If Butler did leave, baseball, and proverbially softball, would lose their NCAA bids.
Not sure why softball would be affected - there's currently 9 teams with softball.
Quote from: vusupporter on March 13, 2012, 10:51:15 PM
Quote from: valporun on March 13, 2012, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: BigMoSmithFan on March 13, 2012, 09:59:16 PM
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 13, 2012, 08:43:58 PM
The HL can't stay at 9 teams. We need to add a school with a baseball team or the HL will lose it's automatic bid.
You need 8 teams to maintain your auto bid, not 10.
Not every team in the HL has a baseball team, so to lose one of the 6 teams would take away the auto-bid for baseball. (Green Bay, Cleveland State, Loyola, and Detroit don't sponsor baseball.) If Butler did leave, baseball, and proverbially softball, would lose their NCAA bids.
Not sure why softball would be affected - there's currently 9 teams with softball.
You are correct about softball. I just didn't check before I posted. Dislike all this mess with schools not sponsoring certain sports, or all sports that the conference has championships/tournaments for.
Yes, with CSU having done away with baseball after this last year, it would really affect my favorite sport if Butler left! Whether that means we would add an associate member for the sport, or an all-sports team, would need to be determined.
I'm actually surprised that Loyola and Detroit don't have baseball teams, considering they are both located in cities with MLB teams. valpotx, from your baseball days in the Mid-Con, would it be a good consideration, at least to have six baseball teams, should Butler leave in all sports, to maybe talk with Chicago State about becoming an associate member in baseball?
Definitely not worth it. They would be an absolute last resort in my opinion, even though their head coach of a few years is a former VU teammate, Michael Caston. They usually win (at most) 10-12 games each year out of 55-60, and would only serve to be a punching bag for the rest of the teams in conference. I really wish Loyola/Detroit would pick up baseball. I believe that Detroit has a baseball field from a team they used to field, and there have been talks on-and-off for years about starting it up again. I would much prefer the HL trying to convince either of the 4 schools to pick up baseball, than to go with Chicago State.
We routinely beat Chicago State by 10+ runs each game, and they were lucky to win 1-2 conference games when in the Mid-Con. Nothing has changed unfortunately, as much as I root for Mike.
I see what you're saying there. Don't need to add a team that doesn't bring much to the plate. I did see their roster has a lot of Northwest Indiana and Chicago guys, and some JUCO or smaller college transfers, but at a commuter school, what can you do? I also saw that the Great West has 7 teams in the conference, not that they get an NCAA bid right now, but if they ever do, losing a team puts them in the same boat we could be in. I was only thinking of them because they could bus to conference games a lot cheaper than the budget-breaking flights and hotel stays in Utah, New York, New Jersey, Houston, and such.
I would really like to see Butler stay in the Horizon League. With the talent they are going to have on their team next year, they should be a very strong team and possibly be able to make another deep run in the NCAA Tournament. Would love for them to be a part of the Horizon League. However, it seems in the best interest for them to move to the A-10.
I would second the move to try to bring in X, STL and/or Dayton. All three make sense and would help reunite the old MCC (Midwestern Collegiate Conference). Another interesting one would be DePaul. That program may be bringing in more dollars from being in the BigLeast now, but as that conference continues to spread geographically and DePaul continues to not be in the top half, they should consider a shift to a conference that reduces costs in other sports but keeps basketball as a prestige sport. Plus the rivalries in the Chicago area with UIC, Loyola and Valpo might help the Tribune actually pay attention to the Horizon.
is there any truth to the dirty rumor mill about depaul and the big east going their separate ways? if so, any chance we could drag them into the horizon as a replacement?
Depaul doesn't have baseball, but I imagine would be instantly considered.
Edit: I love reading the Butler board, and how several posters never look into the facts of our games, as they just love dumping on VU so much to really care to do so. Our game was not a blowout, it was close the whole way until about 3:30 left in the game, when a six-man rotation couldn't keep up anymore. It's one thing to not like another school, but at least research the game, rather than just going off of a score at the bottom of ESPN...
Quote from: valpotx on March 15, 2012, 01:17:05 AMDepaul doesn't have baseball, but I imagine would be instantly considered. Edit: I love reading the Butler board, and how several posters never look into the facts of our games, as they just love dumping on VU so much to really care to do so. Our game was not a blowout, it was close the whole way until about 3:30 left in the game, when a six-man rotation couldn't keep up anymore. It's one thing to not like another school, but at least research the game, rather than just going off of a score at the bottom of ESPN...
Who cares what Butler's Board said. It's a few people from a forum. Valpo played tough.
I just took a look at their board. I may be wrong, but I only see one person saying that Valpo was blown out. If there is truly only one person saying that then I don't see a need to add a comment on this board about it and refer to that one person as the Butler Board.
I didn't say that the Butler Board as a whole speaks this way, or that I truly care, just that 'several posters' seem to be pretty clueless. Yes, that can be said about any forum. Also, I was not just referring to this game, but our games in general. It was just an observation about a few posters on their board that take fan extremism...to the extreme ;)
courtesy of espn's mark neal on the twitterverse:
Quote
Just spoke w/ someone in the know, and this #Butler to the #A10 is more than interest, it is all but a done deal.
Well hopefully it is true. If they stick around in the Horizon League, I think Brad Stevens will move on. It really sucks that they would be leaving after their worst season in many years, but in my opinion it is the best choice for them.
I know this has been addressed, but I wonder if the Valpo Butler games will continue. I'm sure Valpo would want to keep the rivalry going, but I'm not sure Butler would. If they were in the A-10, then I'm sure they would find new rivals, especially Xavier. To be honest, from what I have seen, I don't think Butler has really ever considered Valpo to be their rivals (I'm sure that has changed this year). It seems to be a one way rivalry in my opinion. Call it being smug if you want, but I just think they have larger cross hairs on different teams. That doesn't take anything away from Valpo, however.
Unless Butler is willing to pay the "out" money to jump ship after this athletic year, it won't happen until the 2013-2014 season. Don't forget the schedules for next season are already made, so unless the pay up the arse to leave this spring, they'll still be in the HL next season.
This is disappointing, but understandable. Butler needs to leverage their run twice to the Finals somehow. Hats off to them.
The good news is we might keep Butler in our league long enough for our strong senior class to square off one last season.
As far as new adds to the HL....I really like the DePaul idea and it would help their non-revenue sports greatly. Actually I think Bradley might consider leaving MVC but I'm not sure we in the HL gain much from adding the Peoria media market. However, Bradley a much better add than Oak, IUPUI, or "Mastadons". If you're Bradley don't you want to play in front of alumni in Chicago and Milwaukee more than traveling to the smaller more distant MVC cities.
I'm pretty sure Temple doesn't leave the A-10 until the 13-14 season anyway, although they start Big East football in 12-13.
For what it's worth, I also have enjoyed playing Valpo and I know I'm not the only Butler fan who likes the rivalry. Good coaches, good kids, and good games. I wish you had a better gym, but I'm sure there are some of you who may not like Hinkle.
To the people who root for Butler in the post-season -- I was rooting for you guys in the NIT. Disappointing loss, but hopefully you can build on this season for next year. The fact of the matter is that Butler is the only team in the league that has received, or would have received if needed, an at-large bid since 1998. I'd like to see that change, but HL teams seem to have problems winning against good opponents out-of-conference.
While some Butler people are certainly smug, I think some of the cases of smugness you perceive are actually frustration with other teams in the league who under-perform. Generally, we want the other teams in the league to do well. Believe it or not, I don't revel in your defeat. When you do well, it makes the conference look good, which makes my school look good. I don't want you to beat Butler, but I do want you go beat Miami.
I could write more, but you've probably already stopped reading. ::)
I am rooting for DePaul. Big name and exposure in the Chicago area, and great academics.
Quote from: gmoser1210 on March 15, 2012, 09:23:10 PM
I'm pretty sure Temple doesn't leave the A-10 until the 13-14 season anyway, although they start Big East football in 12-13.
For what it's worth, I also have enjoyed playing Valpo and I know I'm not the only Butler fan who likes the rivalry. Good coaches, good kids, and good games. I wish you had a better gym, but I'm sure there are some of you who may not like Hinkle.
To the people who root for Butler in the post-season -- I was rooting for you guys in the NIT. Disappointing loss, but hopefully you can build on this season for next year. The fact of the matter is that Butler is the only team in the league that has received, or would have received if needed, an at-large bid since 1998. I'd like to see that change, but HL teams seem to have problems winning against good opponents out-of-conference.
While some Butler people are certainly smug, I think some of the cases of smugness you perceive are actually frustration with other teams in the league who under-perform. Generally, we want the other teams in the league to do well. Believe it or not, I don't revel in your defeat. When you do well, it makes the conference look good, which makes my school look good. I don't want you to beat Butler, but I do want you go beat Miami.
I could write more, but you've probably already stopped reading. ::)
For me, the reaction is purely emotional, for reasons I can't really pin down. I was looking forward to Valpo having more of a chance to rise to the challenge that Butler has laid down. It's no fun to be left behind ;)
I have no objective argument against the move.
Quote from: crusadermoe on March 15, 2012, 09:17:43 PM
This is disappointing, but understandable. Butler needs to leverage their run twice to the Finals somehow. Hats off to them.
The good news is we might keep Butler in our league long enough for our strong senior class to square off one last season.
As far as new adds to the HL....I really like the DePaul idea and it would help their non-revenue sports greatly. Actually I think Bradley might consider leaving MVC but I'm not sure we in the HL gain much from adding the Peoria media market. However, Bradley a much better add than Oak, IUPUI, or "Mastadons". If you're Bradley don't you want to play in front of alumni in Chicago and Milwaukee more than traveling to the smaller more distant MVC cities.
I believe if Butler does leave, they will still be in the Horizon League next year. According to the original quote from ESPN
QuoteButler has expressed interest in joining the Atlantic 10 and replacing Temple, according to multiple sources. The Bulldogs are intrigued by the major media markets and, of course, the increase in competition with Xavier, Saint Louis and Dayton among others. The A-10 will lose Temple in the fall of 2013 and must add a quality basketball program.
I believe Butler wouldn't be a part of the A-10 till the 2013-2014 year. Meaning that the strong senior class of Valpo and the highly anticipated Dawgs will have a change to square off.
Hopefully, if they do leave, it won't be until 2013-2014 and we will have one more year to show we have an athletic department that is every bit as good as the dawgs. As I stated earlier, there is no "Valpo having more of a chance to rise to the challenge that Butler has laid down." We have been in the league for what? Five years? And, in the sports that matter,(football,men's and women's basketball, soccer, volleyball, softball and baseball) we outperformed the bulldogs in all of them other than football and women's basketball. Even in the latter, we swept them this year. Of course we will continue to have the chance to beat them in football.
No sour grapes here, just the fact that our programs are every bit as good as theirs and in most cases better. It took us a few years to bring in higher quality players but we did it and I suspect that record will continue. I wish them good luck as well. It will be too bad to lose our longest standing rival, but, life goes on...
I maintain what I said about the Butler, with the caveat that I am *only* talking about men's basketball. The fact that we swept them this year is not nearly enough evidence to indicate we have met their standard, much less exceeded it.
Quote from: vu72 on March 16, 2012, 09:19:31 AMHopefully, if they do leave, it won't be until 2013-2014 and we will have one more year to show we have an athletic department that is every bit as good as the dawgs. As I stated earlier, there is no "Valpo having more of a chance to rise to the challenge that Butler has laid down." We have been in the league for what? Five years? And, in the sports that matter,(football,men's and women's basketball, soccer, volleyball, softball and baseball) we outperformed the bulldogs in all of them other than football and women's basketball. Even in the latter, we swept them this year. Of course we will continue to have the chance to beat them in football.
No sour grapes here, just the fact that our programs are every bit as good as theirs and in most cases better. It took us a few years to bring in higher quality players but we did it and I suspect that record will continue. I wish them good luck as well. It will be too bad to lose our longest standing rival, but, life goes on...
I disagree with the men's basketball portion. Out performing the Men's Basketball team? Ya this year, but overall? You have to be joking.
Sweeping Butler in what is clearly their year of rebuilding does not prove much.
Look at their record.
Overall Conference
2007-2008 30-4 16-2 1st NCAA Appearance
2008-2009 26-6 15-3 1st NCAA Appearance
2009-2010 33-5 18-0 1st NCAA Runner Up
2010 - 2011 28-10 13-5 tied 1st NCAA Runner Up
2011-2012 21-14 11-7 tied 3rd CBI Appearance
Valpos record
2007-2008 22-14 9-9 tied 4th CBI
2008-2009 9-22 5-13 9th
2009-2010 15-17 10-8 tied 4th
2010-2011 23-12 12-6 4th CIT
2011-2012 22-12 14-4 1st NIT
Once Valpo's Men's Basketball team can make it to the NCAA tournament again and win a few rounds, then your statement will have a little bit more validity to it.
As stated here in this thread before. Just because you have had recent success against the benchmark team of the league, doesn't mean that the program is on the same level. Send Broekhoff and KVW, like Butler sent their would be seniors, to the NBA and see if Valpo can manage to stay on top.
Thanks for the long winded response. I was talking about the current situation. We've only been in the Horizon for five years and took a while to get up to speed. On a broad basis--across many sports, Valpo has gotten to a point where we are better than Butler. As for taking players away, we could say the same thing. Haanpaa, Bouchie, Wood? Get the picture?
I never said our record in the NCAAs was better than Butler. The validity of my statement is just fine, thank you. ;D
Quote from: vu72 on March 16, 2012, 03:40:35 PMThanks for the long winded response. I was talking about the current situation. We've only been in the Horizon for five years and took a while to get up to speed. On a broad basis--across many sports, Valpo has gotten to a point where we are better than Butler. As for taking players away, we could say the same thing. Haanpaa, Bouchie, Wood? Get the picture?
I never said our record in the NCAAs was better than Butler. The validity of my statement is just fine, thank you. (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)
Didn't Haanpaa, and Wood graduate? I'm referring to Butler players that left for the NBA after their sophomore and junior year, not a different school or graduated... there is a bit of a difference.
Take Butler's NCAA runs out of the picture and you still have a better program. Valpo may be able to sweep some teams (this year), but Butler has swept the entire league and has dominated the league in years past. Valpo has much to be proud of with being the top team in the HL, but do it for a few more years, then compare the two.
Quote from: Gametime on March 16, 2012, 04:02:49 PM
Quote from: vu72 on March 16, 2012, 03:40:35 PMThanks for the long winded response. I was talking about the current situation. We've only been in the Horizon for five years and took a while to get up to speed. On a broad basis--across many sports, Valpo has gotten to a point where we are better than Butler. As for taking players away, we could say the same thing. Haanpaa, Bouchie, Wood? Get the picture?
I never said our record in the NCAAs was better than Butler. The validity of my statement is just fine, thank you. (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/Smileys/classic/grin.gif)
Didn't Haanpaa, and Wood graduate? I'm referring to Butler players that left for the NBA after their sophomore and junior year, not a different school or graduated... there is a bit of a difference.
Take Butler's NCAA runs out of the picture and you still have a better program. Valpo may be able to sweep some teams (this year), but Butler has swept the entire league and has dominated the league in years past. Valpo has much to be proud of with being the top team in the HL, but do it for a few more years, then compare the two.
wood graduated. haanpaa did not, much to the dismay of my generation of students - man was he fun to watch when he was on. would've loved to see him spend another couple years in a crusader uniform.
Hannpaa left after his sophomore year as I recall, Bouchie after his freshman year and Brandon Wood still had a full year of eligibility. Butler did swwep the conference ONCE, two years ago and then finished second last year and fifth this year. Their play in the NCAAs in beyond comparison. I suspect we will win the conference again next year and then make a spash in the tourney. Time will tell...
Quote from: vu72 on March 16, 2012, 06:32:30 PM
I suspect we will win the conference again next year and then make a spash in the tourney.
The only real question is whether to travel for the first weekend of the NCAA tourney or just wait and head to the round of 16 where they may face some better competition.
Lots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal. I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer. With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 17, 2012, 05:09:07 PM
Lots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal. I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer. With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.
All the attention? From who? I must have missed that.
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 17, 2012, 05:09:07 PMLots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal. I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer. With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.
I don't know if winning the HL regular season title will give much national attention
http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?274-Without-Butler-few-options-on-the-Horizon (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?274-Without-Butler-few-options-on-the-Horizon)
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 17, 2012, 05:09:07 PMLots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal. I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer. With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.
I've spoken to 3 sources within the Butler Athetic Department, and while 2 of them cut their conversations short to finish cleaning the restrooms, one did say, under condition of anonymity that Butler AD Barry Collier has specifically noted fear (and this person emphasized fear - as he pointed out Collier was trembling and sweating at the time) in Valpo's emerging national presence, in his motivation to "run" from the Horizon. This person only chose to share this under the veil of anonymity - so we cannot widely publicize this news - but it does appear to have credibility.
I am confident Butler is leaving the conference for no other reason than that they know they cannot continue to compete with such a power as Valpo, and the A-10 was the next best option. It was no secret that major Butler advertisers Erie Insurance, and G Thrapp jewelers are leaving after this year for the "HOT" Valparasio market... which compounds the situation. This is a move that Butler has to make.
Quote from: Nildogg on March 17, 2012, 11:16:34 PM
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 17, 2012, 05:09:07 PMLots of reports floating around that this may be a done deal. I expect Butler to move quickly, if indeed they do have an offer. With all the national attention Valpo is getting for their league championship and NIT appearance, Collier knows the window of opportunity for a move like this is closing quickly.
I've spoken to 3 sources within the Butler Athetic Department, and while 2 of them cut their conversations short to finish cleaning the restrooms, one did say, under condition of anonymity that Butler AD Barry Collier has specifically noted fear (and this person emphasized fear - as he pointed out Collier was trembling and sweating at the time) in Valpo's emerging national presence, in his motivation to "run" from the Horizon. This person only chose to share this under the veil of anonymity - so we cannot widely publicize this news - but it does appear to have credibility.
I am confident Butler is leaving the conference for no other reason than that they know they cannot continue to compete with such a power as Valpo, and the A-10 was the next best option. It was no secret that major Butler advertisers Erie Insurance, and G Thrapp jewelers are leaving after this year for the "HOT" Valparasio market... which compounds the situation. This is a move that Butler has to make.
this..... and the fact the sponsors love the dirty brown and gold colors of Valpo. It's a win/win proposition.
nil, stax and gametime - I think you guys are being punked by satirist and fellow Butler fan eddie Cabot. Look at his 11-post history. :)
wh, I think they are *participating* in the sarcasm.
Quote from: StlVUFan on March 18, 2012, 09:10:40 AMwh, I think they are *participating* in the sarcasm.
;)
Nothing says "Game On" like audience participatory sarcasm... Wasn't Collier the coach who left because he became the athletic director, and the two jobs would have been too much? Maybe Valpo joining the Horizon League and winning regular season titles in a few sports is getting to be too much for him, so he's talking taking the Butler ball and running to the A-10?
You guys are missing some key schools. Butler could easily be replaced by a number of schools.
University of Findlay Oilers
There's a rumor going on that the NCAA is fastracking this D-II team so they can join a mid-major conference to fill the void of schools shifting to the power 6 conferences. The Summit League is recruiting this school heavily, so I would be sad to see that conference win a war with the Horizon League over this school. Located in Ohio, Findlay would be a great geographical fit for the Horizon. There is some question on whether they can make the jump from D-II to D-I and compete right away. I think most schools who have made the short transition have proved there is not much of a gap.
Chicago State Cougars
Chicago State played in the MidCon with Valpo and YSU. They came to the MidCon the year after many of the current Horizon League teams left. They've since left the Summit League to explore different options. They're in the Great West right now, and are looking for a better geographical conference. Chicago State would make sense. They would share a rivalry with Loyola and UIC, and they would fit perfectly into the geographical landscape of the Horizon. Academics-wise might be the reason Chicago Sate would not be offered a bid, although Chicago State could be a blessing in disguise for teams like Youngstown State, whose academic standing in the conference would increase from the move.
Marquette Golden Eagles (Warriors)
Marquette also makes a lot of sense geographically for the Horizon League. They would share a big rivalry with University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. With the Big East removing all non-football schools in 2015, it looks as if Marquette, lacking a stadium, will be orphaned. I think the Horizon League would be a possible landing spot for the Milwaukee school. Since they are being removed, Marquette may want to move from the Big East as early as possible. Although this move makes a lot of sense for both parties, you would have to ignore the rumors of the all-Jesuit conference that looks as if it's all-but-confirmed. This would, of course, pull Detroit from the Horizon, so we would actually have to worry about adding two schools a year later. I think it's a risky move, but it would help the conference short-term.
Princeton Tigers
Princeton narrowly missed the tournament this year, and made the big dance in 2011. Princeton would definitely help the Horizon league's academic standings, and bolster that image. The only thing that could possibly prevent them from joining the conference is the lack of Lacrosse at a D1 level. I heard UWM and UWGB have club teams that were on the verge of becoming D1, and Wright State had significant interest as well. I think Princeton could go independent in lacrosse (I'd have to look into that more) or the Horizon could pick up lacrosse as a D1 sport.
University of Hradec Králové Medvědi (Bears)
Since 18 Canadian universities are being added to NCAA D1 basketball in 2014, I think it would be a possibility that the Horizon League, given the current situation, could lobby the NCAA into admitting international schools. Hradec Králové has one of the best college basketball programs in the Czech Republic, and have always been looking to compete against American schools full-time. I believe they played Akron a few years ago and lost in overtime, and beat Fairfield by double digits in that same tournament. They've also beaten up on lower schools such as Delaware St, so it seams as if they're at the Horizon League level. Travel times would be a negative, especially since this school is located in the eastern portion of the Czech Republic.
How long did it take you to make such a post that is obviously a farce? Just curious how much of your time was wasted :)
"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic". Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.
A3uge, you should write for the onion. :thumbsup:
Quote from: drewsaders11 on March 19, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic". Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.
A3uge, you should write for the onion. :thumbsup:
Valpo would veto that admission........ interferes with their recruiting base. 8)
Ok, I have to give you that one Stax :)
Quote from: staxawax on March 19, 2012, 09:20:43 PM
Quote from: drewsaders11 on March 19, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
"...especially since this school is located in the Eastern portion of the Czech Republic". Yea, if they were in the western portion, you never know.
A3uge, you should write for the onion. :thumbsup:
Valpo would veto that admission........ interferes with their recruiting base. 8)
:clap:
I don't think Valpo would want to incur the costs of plane tickets to the Czech Republic, unless we wanted a non-conference basketball record of 0-9 full of guarantee games against the major of the majors who wouldn't normally want to play us. Otherwise, the list of teams is smelling of a stronger sarcasm than I normally run across.
Demovsky: loss of Butler a blow to Horizon
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453 (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453)
Rob hits a grand slam with this column, much as the A-10 does by adding Butler.
Quote from: dylanrocks on March 20, 2012, 09:21:32 AM
Demovsky: loss of Butler a blow to Horizon
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453 (http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20120320/GPG020101/203200453)
Rob hits a grand slam with this column, much as the A-10 does by adding Butler.
I agree with everything in this article except when the author states that "the minute the Horizon League loses Butler, it becomes no better than the Summit League." The Horizon League will be stronger and more attractive than the Summit League, especially when you consider the Summit League's loss of Oral Roberts and possibly Oakland.
Just looking at the competitiveness of the teams and not the geography, I'm not sure how much more attractive the Horizon will be than the Summit.
As for how winnable the league will be, will it really be that much easier to gain a bid when Cleveland State, Wright State, Valparaiso, Milwaukee, IUPUI and Oakland, for instance, are all vying for one spot in the dance?
Where it really impairs us, of course, is with our seeding and so our ability to advance through the brackets.
By the way, Milwaukee -- No. 30 in the country -- shouldn't be discounted as a "major market."
If the HL can lure Oakland away from the Summit, we will kill a lot of birds with one stone. Along with the loss of ORU the Summit's RPI will drop like a rock when Oakland leaves. Despite all the disadvantages of travel, time away from the classroom, and no natural rivalries, Oakland has done a better job of selling it's program to quality potential recruits than most of the programs in the HL have sold theirs. No, they're not Butler, but their profile is much closer to Butler's than it is to UIC or Loyola. They would be a great addition.
The sky is not falling. The end of the world is not here.
The HL will be fine without Butler. We will lose their name recognition, but they are replaceable. In the 1990s the HL lost: Dayton, Duquesne, Evansville, La Salle, Marquette, Northern Illinois, Notre Dame, Saint Louis, and Xavier. Butler was the doormat of the HL before all of these teams left. Xavier left in 1995. Prior to Xavier leaving the HL, Butler only had one NCAA tournament appearance in 1962. They started their current run of NCAA success in 1997, 2 years after all of the above schools left.
The HL will take a hit on name recognition initially, because Butler has been the team to beat in the HL for awhile now. We won't necessarily take a dive in conference ranking if we add the right team though. Oakland has been successful enough recently to help offset the loss of Butler. (Butler had an RPI of 116 this year compared to Oaklands RPI of 141). The good news is the HL is wide open and the rest of the conference has a chance to step up to the plate the same way Butler stepped up to the plate in the 1990s the last time the HL lost several members.
There's a zero chance of this happening because of FBS football, but since we're all speculating at this point, given the state of the potential flux with the WAC and Sun Belt per the MWC/CUSA merger, I'd try and steal Western Kentucky. They have a basketball history that rivals Butler. WKU would be my #1 choice if they could still somehow park their football in an FBS conference and join the HL. The Sun Belt is rather far flunged...sound familiar?
As far as Oakland, as a private institution that may need help in the future from other private institutions should the public vs. faith-based private distinction come into play with realignment, VU should really defer to Detroit on this issue, IMO.
Quote from: BigDWSU on March 20, 2012, 07:55:09 PM
The HL will be fine without Butler. We will lose their name recognition, but they are replaceable. In the 1990s the HL lost: Dayton, Duquesne, Evansville, La Salle, Marquette, Northern Illinois, Notre Dame, Saint Louis, and Xavier. Butler was the doormat of the HL before all of these teams left. Xavier left in 1995. Prior to Xavier leaving the HL, Butler only had one NCAA tournament appearance in 1962. They started their current run of NCAA success in 1997, 2 years after all of the above schools left.
The HL will take a hit on name recognition initially, because Butler has been the team to beat in the HL for awhile now. We won't necessarily take a dive in conference ranking if we add the right team though. Oakland has been successful enough recently to help offset the loss of Butler. (Butler had an RPI of 116 this year compared to Oaklands RPI of 141). The good news is the HL is wide open and the rest of the conference has a chance to step up to the plate the same way Butler stepped up to the plate in the 1990s the last time the HL lost several members.
Can't confirm nor deny the Butler report. If they leave, dwsu is correct that adding Oakland would cause only a slight drop in conference rankings from where the Horizon was this year. That would put the league at about #15 ... if you're happy with that, then be happy. You saw this year exactly was that gets you ... a #14 seed and a first round beatdown.
As for the Horizon/Butler history lesson, I'd just say that the Horizon League Record Book is a great source for folks that weren't around/interested in the HL during the '90's. A few things I'd revise in dwsu's comments:
1. The real hit to the MCC was when long time members Xavier, Evansville and SLU left. All the other teams he mentioned were merely passthroughs that had marginal impact on the conference. Dayton was here 5 years, but was 4-26 (3-11) in their last year in the conference. LaSalle stayed 3 years and left by going 7-13 (3-7). Notre Dame never played in the conference and Duquesne was here 1 year. NIU was here 3 and Marquette only 2 ... bowing out with an 11-18 season.
2. Butler went to the NCAA tourney in '97 (dwsu got that tidbit right). In the 6 previous seasons in the '90's, Butler was 100-71 overall and 48-31 in the MCC with 2 NIT appearances. Maybe dwsu considers that "doormat" material, but those winning percentages are better than WSU has achieved since 2000 in the HL. What's lower than "doormat"?
If Butler leaves, it will certainly create opportunities for more teams to get to the NCAA tourney. It's easy to argue that some team (or teams) will take that opportunity to improve their programs and become something special. But if no team did that while reaping the benefits (recognition/NCAA tourney $) of having Butler in the League, who's going to do it if they leave?
Quote from: EddieCabot on March 20, 2012, 09:05:54 PM
Can't confirm nor deny the Butler report. If they leave, dwsu is correct that adding Oakland would cause only a slight drop in conference rankings from where the Horizon was this year. That would put the league at about #15 ... if you're happy with that, then be happy. You saw this year exactly was that gets you ... a #14 seed and a first round beatdown.
As for the Horizon/Butler history lesson, I'd just say that the Horizon League Record Book is a great source for folks that weren't around/interested in the HL during the '90's. A few things I'd revise in dwsu's comments:
1. The real hit to the MCC was when long time members Xavier, Evansville and SLU left. All the other teams he mentioned were merely passthroughs that had marginal impact on the conference. Dayton was here 5 years, but was 4-26 (3-11) in their last year in the conference. LaSalle stayed 3 years and left by going 7-13 (3-7). Notre Dame never played in the conference and Duquesne was here 1 year. NIU was here 3 and Marquette only 2 ... bowing out with an 11-18 season.
2. Butler went to the NCAA tourney in '97 (dwsu got that tidbit right). In the 6 previous seasons in the '90's, Butler was 100-71 overall and 48-31 in the MCC with 2 NIT appearances. Maybe dwsu considers that "doormat" material, but those winning percentages are better than WSU has achieved since 2000 in the HL. What's lower than "doormat"?
If Butler leaves, it will certainly create opportunities for more teams to get to the NCAA tourney. It's easy to argue that some team (or teams) will take that opportunity to improve their programs and become something special. But if no team did that while reaping the benefits (recognition/NCAA tourney $) of having Butler in the League, who's going to do it if they leave?
1. The HL got a 14 seed this year because the 3rd place team won the conference tournament. If Valpo or CSU won the tournament, they would have been higher seeded.
2. I stand by my comments about Butler being the doormat of the HL before all of those teams left the HL. You included seasons AFTER those teams left the HL. Here is Butler's 10 year record prior to Xavier leaving in 1995. Butler finished dead last 30% of the time and in the bottom half of the conference 50% of the time. Looks like a doormat to me.
1985/86: 9-19, 2-10 HL, 7th out of 7 teams
1986/87: 12-16, 5-7, 5th out of 7 teams
1987/88: 14-14, 5-5, 3rd of 6 teams
1988/89: 11-17, 3-9, 7th out of 7 teams
1989/90: 6-22, 2-12, 8th out of 8 teams
1990/91: 18-11, 10-4, 2nd out of 8 teams
1991/92: 21-10, 7-3, 3rd out of 6 teams
1992/93: 11-17, 5-9, 6th out of 8 teams
1993/94: 16-13, 6-4, 3rd out of 6 teams
1994/95: 15-12, 8-7, 5th of 11 teams
3. UWM has won NCAA games. CSU has won an NCAA game recently.
hate to bust y'alls balls, but detroit was a 15 this year. not 14. ;)
OK, time to sound elitist. Why does America know anything about the Horizon League? Not because Butler emerged from a doormat in the 90's to go to multiple NCAA tournaments. Not because they swept the conference 2 years ago.
It's because a small, private university in Indianapolis defied tremendous odds and went to not one, but two consecutive NCAA championship games. The games we are watching in this year's tournament........ Ohio U., Norfolk State, Lehigh........ Butler did that almost EVERY GAME 2 consecutive years. Not only is it unprecedented for a mid-major, it may never happen again.
This is why America knows the Horizon League.
If ya' all think they can be easily replaced I have no hope for you.
I agree with Stax. It may be hard to accept, but I believe it is true.
Quote from: staxawax on March 20, 2012, 10:06:15 PM
OK, time to sound elitist. Why does America know anything about the Horizon League? Not because Butler emerged from a doormat in the 90's to go to multiple NCAA tournaments. Not because they swept the conference 2 years ago.
It's because a small, private university in Indianapolis defied tremendous odds and went to not one, but two consecutive NCAA championship games. The games we are watching in this year's tournament........ Ohio U., Norfolk State, Lehigh........ Butler did that almost EVERY GAME 2 consecutive years. Not only is it unprecedented for a mid-major, it may never happen again.
This is why America knows the Horizon League.
If ya' all think they can be easily replaced I have no hope for you.
Bing.
Some food for thought for Butler fans, written by a free lance writer who is also a BU alum and Bulldog fan:
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1102979-butler-to-the-atlantic-10-hold-on-a-minute-do-the-cons-outweigh-the-pros (http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1102979-butler-to-the-atlantic-10-hold-on-a-minute-do-the-cons-outweigh-the-pros)
I do think that the Horizon League with Butler continuing in the conference, starts to move up in the conference rankings. I would hope that next year we are a two bid league. I think if Bryce continues at VU we are consistently near the top of the league and recruiting gets better each year. It is still a little early to see if the league gets any kind of a recruiting bump from Butler's success, lets wait and see how Butler and VU and the rest of the league do next year on the court. Two things, that if they stay the same, will raise this league, Butler remains and the good young coaches (Stevens and Drew in particular) stay for a while.
Quote from: wh on March 21, 2012, 01:33:17 AM
Some food for thought for Butler fans, written by a free lance writer who is also a BU alum and Bulldog fan:
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1102979-butler-to-the-atlantic-10-hold-on-a-minute-do-the-cons-outweigh-the-pros (http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1102979-butler-to-the-atlantic-10-hold-on-a-minute-do-the-cons-outweigh-the-pros)
Good article. I like the Gonzaga comparison. Butler may be better served in the long run to stay with the HL. The HL is stepping up its game to Butler, as far as men's basketball is concerned. In the A-10, they could become a mid-pack team, with an occasional title and NCAA at large berth. The A-10 had nine teams ahead of Butler in the RPI ratings this year. While Butler should be able to compete, is the travel worth the change? I think staying in the HL, with the HL leadership assisting in getting HL teams quality pre-season opponents (Butler can schedule whomever they please, others not so much), the HL would begin to become one to the leagues with multiple NCAA bids.
Looking at the A-10 league, I really like the Horizon League with only 10 teams. We have a home-and-home with each team, every season. Would I replace YSU with Duquesne, maybe.
The Gonzaga comparison is just wrong. The WCC has always been a 1-2 bid conference (at least as far back as 1994). I'll post the same thing I posted on the Butler board. The WCC has 3 teams this year because they added BYU to their conference. Before BYU, they only had more than two bids once -- the same number of times as the Horizon League. People say that the other teams in the WCC grew into at-large programs because they had to after Gonzaga became an elite program. However, if you look at the number of bids they received and the conference's RPI since Gonzaga's first run in 1999, that's not really the case. Some years are okay, but other years not so much. Furthermore, the WCC was receiving multiple bids before Gonzaga had their run in 1999. I'd argue that the WCC hasn't actually gotten much better and is really only slightly better than the Horizon, if at all.
Teams in the NCAA:
| '12 | '11 | '10 | '09 | '08 | '07 | '06 | '05 | '04 | '03 | '02 | '01 | '00 | '99 | '98 | '97 | '96 | '95 | '94 |
| WCC | 3 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 |
| Horizon | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
Conference RPI Rank
| '12 | '11 | '10 | '09 | '08 | '07 | '06 | '05 | '04 | '03 | '02 | '01 | '00 | '99 | '98 |
| WCC | 11 | 14 | 13 | 15 | 15 | 14 | 12 | 7 | 12 | 12 | 17 | 18 | 9 | 15 | 11 |
| Horizon | 14 | 11 | 14 | 12 | 11 | 12 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 13 | 16 | 11 | 25 | 16 | 10 |
It feels like St. Mary's has been a lot more competitive lately, the last few... or maybe ten-years? They're obviously not always at-large caliber, but often are, and are often at least in the conversation.
I'd have to look back at the older two-bid seasons and see how many were "Gonzaga at-large, upset in the conference tournament" and how many actually had two at-large quality teams.
That comparison is...lacking. The WCC may as well be another world.
We know there is one team going to the A10 with Butler, based on what the Richmond AD and Duquesne President have said (former in passing, latter in this letter: http://cbsprt.co/GL6MU7 (http://cbsprt.co/GL6MU7) )
Link: A10 moves could affect Horizon beyond Butler (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?286-the-a10-moves)
It looks like Charlotte is on their way out of the A10, which would make Butler's addition bring the conference to 13. This makes me thing the A10 is adding an odd number of schools (besides Butler). I see two scenarios, if we can assume Butler is in and Charlotte is out.
1. VCU
2. VCU, George Mason and Creighton
These are the two scenarios I see playing out. ODU could be in there for Creighton, but I think the Bluejays are the fourth addition. I then ramble and have some fun to see what the 10th team in the MVC would be.
Butler coachBrad Stevens says he is staying with the Bulldogs. "Stevens says he is 'happy and extremely grateful' to be the Butler coach, and is already looking forward to next season. He made his remarks in a statement issued by the school on Sunday. The reason for the statement was unclear, but Illinois is currently searching for a coach and there has been speculation that the Illini were interested in Stevens."
If Butler were staying in the Horizon League, I doubt such a statement would be made.
Therefore, along with the CBS Sports report this morning that Butler, VCU, and George Mason are in talks with the A-10 for their entry, this certainly indicates the expected announcement soon, perhaps after the NCAA championship weekend, of Butler's departure from the Horizon League at the end of next season.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on March 24, 2012, 01:37:20 PM
That comparison is...lacking. The WCC may as well be another world.
We know there is one team going to the A10 with Butler, based on what the Richmond AD and Duquesne President have said (former in passing, latter in this letter: http://cbsprt.co/GL6MU7 (http://cbsprt.co/GL6MU7) )
Link: A10 moves could affect Horizon beyond Butler (http://www.brewcityball.com/forums/content.php?286-the-a10-moves)
It looks like Charlotte is on their way out of the A10, which would make Butler's addition bring the conference to 13. This makes me thing the A10 is adding an odd number of schools (besides Butler). I see two scenarios, if we can assume Butler is in and Charlotte is out.
1. VCU
2. VCU, George Mason and Creighton
These are the two scenarios I see playing out. ODU could be in there for Creighton, but I think the Bluejays are the fourth addition. I then ramble and have some fun to see what the 10th team in the MVC would be.
Jimmy I thought you were crazy when you mentioned Creighton as a possibility for the A-10, but then I read that CBS article yesterday where the school was actually mentioned as a long shot. Very interesting to say the least that they were mentioned. I suppose when you tie in the fact that CU's current president was formerly the president of St. Joe's and the fact that it is the only Catholic institution in the MVC, this doesn't sound so off the wall after all--particularly so if the A-10 moves to two geographically compact divisions. While in Nebraska, CU is only a stones throw away from Iowa, so it's not like another time zone would come into play with their addition.
Per various message boards, FAU is staying put in the Sun Belt, which might mean that FIU will be the south Florida school leaving the Sun Belt for the mega conference. Karl Benson, former WAC commissioner is now the new Sun Belt commissioner. The MWC commissioner paid a visit to SJSU recently...another WAC defection? Is this the precursor for a WAC/Sun Belt merger when the dust settles? (Hello Western Kentucky...do you really want to travel to New Mexico and Idaho for your non football sporting teams? Park your football in the Belt and come on over.) Potentially the MWC, CUSA, WAC, Sun Belt, A-10, HL, MVC, CAA et. al. might all be effected by the dominoes are starting to fall for either football or basketball reasons. I hope the VU AD has a contingency plan in place for conference affiliation. As I said a few months ago, it would be foolish not to.
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 09:31:01 AMIf Butler were staying in the Horizon League, I doubt such a statement would be made.
They may well (very likely?) leave for the A10. But, I can imagine them putting out the statement based solely on 1)An additional conversation with Stevens, and 2)The Illinois rumors.
Why would switching to the A10 make Stevens more likely to leave Butler?
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2012, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 09:31:01 AMIf Butler were staying in the Horizon League, I doubt such a statement would be made.
They may well (very likely?) leave for the A10. But, I can imagine them putting out the statement based solely on 1)An additional conversation with Stevens, and 2)The Illinois rumors.
Why would switching to the A10 make Stevens more likely to leave Butler?
It would be a comfort statement for the Butler faithful that beyond the Butler Way, beyond Rotnei Clarke-the savior of the "shot-making deprived" Butler world, the Bulldogs will have their head coach secured as they head into the A-10. Do myou really think they believe in their recruiting formula yet?
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2012, 10:22:01 AM
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 09:31:01 AMIf Butler were staying in the Horizon League, I doubt such a statement would be made.
They may well (very likely?) leave for the A10. But, I can imagine them putting out the statement based solely on 1)An additional conversation with Stevens, and 2)The Illinois rumors.
Why would switching to the A10 make Stevens more likely to leave Butler?
I think you have misread my comment. I was indicating that switching to the A-10 makes Stevens more likely to stay at Butler, which is why he could be confident in stating that he is looking forward to remaining as Butler's coach. If Butler were not leaving the Horizon League, I believe Stevens would be more open to the possibility of a position in a higher conference and would not make such a statement at this time. I'm convinced his talks with the Butler folks included assurance that the university was pursuing the move to the A-10.
One more season to sweep the Bulldogs :)
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 10:48:30 AMI think you have misread my comment. I was indicating that switching to the A-10 makes Stevens more likely to stay at Butler, which is why he could be confident in stating that he is looking forward to remaining as Butler's coach. If Butler were not leaving the Horizon League, I believe Stevens would be more open to the possibility of a position in a higher conference and would not make such a statement at this time. I'm convinced his talks with the Butler folks included assurance that the university was pursuing the move to the A-10.
He has made a similar statement almost every year since he took the job and had great success. I think that turning down a reported 21 million dollar 8-year contract is reason enough to make a statement. Why would this year's statement be tied to the A-10 move?
Quote from: FWalum on March 26, 2012, 12:39:57 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 10:48:30 AMI think you have misread my comment. I was indicating that switching to the A-10 makes Stevens more likely to stay at Butler, which is why he could be confident in stating that he is looking forward to remaining as Butler's coach. If Butler were not leaving the Horizon League, I believe Stevens would be more open to the possibility of a position in a higher conference and would not make such a statement at this time. I'm convinced his talks with the Butler folks included assurance that the university was pursuing the move to the A-10.
He has made a similar statement almost every year since he took the job and had great success. I think that turning down a reported 21 million dollar 8-year contract is reason enough to make a statement. Why would this year's statement be tied to the A-10 move?
The fact that Stevens is reportedly turning down such a lucrative offer and the Butler administration is distributing the statement on his behalf lead to my conclusion that Stevens got assurance from Butler that they would pursue the move to the A-10, and it probably is already almost a done deal, if not certain.
If I were receiving offers like the one Illinois supposedly made, I would not be smart to close the door on that or similar opportunities that might arise unless I had received confirmation from Butler that the team would be moving up in league affiliation (and maybe some other assurances as well), and I'm positive Stevens is as smart as I am.
Having been on both sides of such conversations at universities (though, admittedly not for $1 million salaries), I know this is how university hiring and retention negotiations work.
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 02:42:40 PMIf I were receiving offers like the one Illinois supposedly made, I would not be smart to close the door on that or similar opportunities that might arise unless I had received confirmation from Butler that the team would be moving up in league affiliation (and maybe some other assurances as well), and I'm positive Stevens is as smart as I am.
Unless, you know, he actually is just happy at Butler. Even in the Horizon. At a mere $1M a year. And doesn't want to move currently... or ever.
Meet Mrs. Tracy Stevens, a labor lawyer in downtown Indy. She makes half of what Brad makes but has just as much potential as Brad for earnings. Why move up if you are happy being king of the hill where you are?
http://www.lawyercentral.com/Tracy-Stevens-Interactive-Profile--20-260384.html (http://www.lawyercentral.com/Tracy-Stevens-Interactive-Profile--20-260384.html)
http://www.martindale.com/Tracy-Stevens/4691457-lawyer.htm (http://www.martindale.com/Tracy-Stevens/4691457-lawyer.htm)
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/sports/Tonight_at_11_pm_Top_Dawg (http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/sports/Tonight_at_11_pm_Top_Dawg)
Tracy Stevens: I did. Well, I am a labor and employment attorney, so I write employment contracts every day. So it just made sense. And usually when you are getting that offer, it's a pretty quick turnaround. So Brad called and said, "I have a contract, I need you to look at it." And I have never been so happy to look at a contract before.
BS: I said, "Don't be too critical, let's just do this and be done with it." I then joked and said, "I am the only coach in the country paying 100 percent to his attorney."
The Stevens have a three-year-old son named Brady and are expecting another child in May. They met at DePauw and even back then, Tracy said basketball was a big part of their lives.
TS: Our third date, we drove from Greencastle to Anderson to go to a high school game at the Wigwam. At the time, I should have known what I was getting into.
Tracy has spent a lot of time behind the bench, watching her husband become one of the hottest names in coaching.
Stevens's father Mark is an orthopedic surgeon in Indianapolis and former Indiana Hoosiers football player.[6] His mother Jan is a university professor.[4] She has previously taught at Butler.[31]
Brad just doesn't see the advantages of moving. I believe he still lives near Zionsville if not in Carmel.
Quote from: agibson on March 26, 2012, 08:26:04 PM
Quote from: valpopal on March 26, 2012, 02:42:40 PMIf I were receiving offers like the one Illinois supposedly made, I would not be smart to close the door on that or similar opportunities that might arise unless I had received confirmation from Butler that the team would be moving up in league affiliation (and maybe some other assurances as well), and I'm positive Stevens is as smart as I am.
Unless, you know, he actually is just happy at Butler. Even in the Horizon. At a mere $1M a year. And doesn't want to move currently... or ever.
Even if he is happy at Butler, which I believe he is, and has no desire to leave, he would be wise to use these advantageous circumstances to negotiate assurances about the team's future, its position in a stronger conference, and its facilities, as well as the situation for himself and his assistant coaches. How many of us have suggested or requested Bryce do the same thing now that he may be in demand so that the Crusaders be assured of more support and better facilities in the future, even if Bryce is very happy at Valpo?
Facilities and directions of program aside, whatever happened to the idea of being loyal to a program and community that you feel a big part of? If coaching is only about the money, why not say from now on that all head coaches are really the "Director/Overlord of Basketball Operations", instead of "head coach"? Not every coach coaches because the money is good, or because the conference is better at the next available job. Some coaches coach because it is in their blood, and it is a way of giving back to the community that provided them an identity. Million dollar contracts tarnish that ability to coach more than the players the coach brings in.
You're assuming that the status quo is inadequate.
What if Butler, or even Valpo, are actually where they should be? That, at the moment, they're in an appropriate conference, in appropriate facilities (with reasonable plans for those to develop, perhaps), with coaches getting paid reasonable salaries? Could Butler, or VU, devote more money to the head basketball coach's salary, or to basketball facilities? Sure, hypothetically. But, that money has to come from somewhere. Either dedicated fundraising, or money that could be spent somewhere else. What if Bryce and Brad agree that the current situation is reasonable? That it would be inappropriate, unbalanced, to spend more money on basketball at present? Or to switch conferences?
Too much of a stretch for a basketball message board, perhaps.
Quote from: valporun on March 27, 2012, 11:39:10 AM
Facilities and directions of program aside, whatever happened to the idea of being loyal to a program and community that you feel a big part of?
Well, of course, if you put "facilities and directions of programs aside," but those are major parts of the discussion.
Would most people stay at their current job when offered $50k more to perform a similar job somewhere else in the same city? It is the same for coaching, that sometimes the lure of the almighty $ can be hard to turn down.
Quote from: valpotx on March 27, 2012, 01:14:49 PM
Would most people stay at their current job when offered $50k more to perform a similar job somewhere else in the same city? It is the same for coaching, that sometimes the lure of the almighty $ can be hard to turn down.
This.
I love how people act like coaching is somehow different from other professions and that they should have loyalty to their job.
Coaching is different from 9-5 jobs, in many many ways. There are different standards for coaching vs. the general business sector.
*For the record I am of the belief that there is no loyalty in business.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that this may not be the "done deal" that some are proclaiming it to be...
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120331/SPORTS0605/203310328?odyssey=mod%7Cmostcom (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120331/SPORTS0605/203310328?odyssey=mod%7Cmostcom)
Butler to Atlantic 10? Here are pros and cons
Pluses
» At-large berths: Since 2000, the Horizon League has received three at-large bids . . . all to Butler. The A-10 had three this season alone, and 20 since 2000. This year's Horizon League champion, Detroit, was a No. 15 seed. All four of the A-10 entries were seeded No. 14 or better, and with three No. 10 or better.
» More exposure: The Horizon League has one top-10 television market -- Chicago, which ranks third nationally, according to stationindex.com. Detroit ranks No. 11 and Indianapolis No. 25. The A-10 includes No. 1 New York, No. 4 Philadelphia and No. 9 Washington, D.C. Butler also would make regular trips to three others in the top 25: St. Louis (21), Pittsburgh (23) and Charlotte, N.C. (24).
From a television contract standpoint, both the Horizon and A-10 appear on ESPN, but the A-10 also has a deal with CBS College Sports.
» Recruiting: The points above make the A-10 a more attractive recruiting option.
"The competition is at a higher level, and with the bigger markets, you're just seen by more people,'' said Jerry Meyer, basketball recruiting analyst for Rivals.com. "There's no question that playing in the A-10 would be much more appealing to recruits than playing in the Horizon League.''
Minuses
» Travel: In the Horizon, the farthest trip for the Bulldogs is to Green Bay, a distance of 382 miles, according to mapquest .com. They have two other trips of more than 300 miles.
In the A-10, 300 miles would feel like a leisure trip. Two schools, UMass and Rhode Island, are about 880 miles from Indianapolis. New York is 710, Richmond, Va., 653, Philadelphia 644 and Charlotte 625. The average trip in the Horizon is 248 miles. In the A-10, it will be more than 500, which would significantly increase expenses.
» Alumni base: According to figures provided by the school, the A-10 would leave the Bulldogs without a conference rival in the area with the highest concentration of Butler's 44,000 alumni outside of Central Indiana: Chicago (5.1 percent). It would pick up visits to Washington, D.C. (1.7 percent) and the New York area (1.5 percent) but also leave Detroit (1.0 percent). Forty-three percent of Butler's alumni live in Central Indiana.
» Fewer titles: Since 2000, Butler has been the top-ranked basketball team in the Horizon League in terms of Rating Percentage Index nine times. In those same nine seasons, however, the Bulldogs would have only topped the Atlantic 10 twice, and three times it would have ranked fourth.
Neutral
» Rivalries: Xavier, Dayton and St. Louis are within reasonable driving distances and would have significant potential as rivals. But it would be difficult to leave behind established rivalries with Valparaiso, Detroit and Wright State.
The map in the plus/minus story is certainly revealing. The majority of teams are located hundreds of miles away from Indy along the eastern seaboard. The added costs and time away from the classroom for their student athletes would have to be staggering. Bus trips would be killers and yet how could they possibly afford to fly all their teams everywhere? This is something I would never want to see Valpo do. The quality of life for every athlete in every sport would suffer just so their men's basketball team can...I forgot, why is it they're doing this again? I'm sorry, but this takes silly to a whole level. I can't imagine their President and trustees buying into such a thing.
"The average trip in the Horizon is 248 miles. In the A-10, it will be more than 500, which would significantly increase expenses."
Think not just of the teams, but the fans.
A handful of us here in Milwaukee love to travel to out-of-town games. It takes four hours to drive 248 miles and eight hours to drive 500 miles. That takes a day trip and turns it into an overnight stay, so there's an additional cost for lodging and meals.
I also checked airfares from Indianapolis to New York and Washington, D.C. The cost of a nonstop flight to New York is $372 or $380 and the cost of all nonstop flights to the nation's capitol is $422.
It costs us about $35 for a round-trip drive to Green Bay or Chicago and $42 for a round-trip drive to Valparaiso. In all cases, it's about an eight-hour commitment; a little more if we stop for a meal.
These are obviously not insignificant numbers.
If the A-10 divides itself into two divisions upon the entry of Butler (and other teams) as has been suggested in some places, both made up of schools in geographical proximity, with two games against each other within the division and one against some teams in the other division, the travel situation would not be as much of a problem.
A 16-team conference would have two 8-team divisions in which Butler would play two games against the seven within its division and 4 games against teams from the other division, only two of those being travel games, for an 18-game conference schedule. Hypothetical teams in Butler's conference could include St. Louis, Dayton, Xavier, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, Charlotte, Richmond or some such configuration.
Though something similar would never happen until VU built its program and significantly improved facilities, replace Butler with Valpo and I certainly would accept this proposal. With all the added advantages Butler has in terms of budget and a large urban location, I can't see why Butler would not.
I'm sure we could brainstorm all kinds of cool, workable conference configurations. Unfortunately, none would have any connection to current reality.
Quote from: wh on April 02, 2012, 04:55:25 AM
The map in the plus/minus story is certainly revealing. The majority of teams are located hundreds of miles away from Indy along the eastern seaboard. The added costs and time away from the classroom for their student athletes would have to be staggering. Bus trips would be killers and yet how could they possibly afford to fly all their teams everywhere? This is something I would never want to see Valpo do. The quality of life for every athlete in every sport would suffer just so their men's basketball team can...I forgot, why is it they're doing this again? I'm sorry, but this takes silly to a whole level. I can't imagine their President and trustees buying into such a thing.
Gee, what a surprising development:
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120409/SPORTS0605/204090310/Butler-move-Atlantic-10-far-from-certain-trustee-says?odyssey=tab (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120409/SPORTS0605/204090310/Butler-move-Atlantic-10-far-from-certain-trustee-says?odyssey=tab)
From that article
Quote
The trustee said Butler has not been formally asked to join the conference, and an A-10 spokesman said no invitation has been made.
So, indeed, perhaps it's all swamp gas?
Quote from: agibson on April 09, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
From that article
Quote
The trustee said Butler has not been formally asked to join the conference, and an A-10 spokesman said no invitation has been made.
So, indeed, perhaps it's all swamp gas?
It's certainly not all swamp gas. Having Butler join your conference, if only for basketball, would be a big plus for the conference. In many people's opinions in Indy it would be a bigger coup than getting Indiana or Purdue to leave the B1G.
But ask someone on the softball or men's soccer team at St. Louis University what it is like traveling to Richmond,VA, Philadelphia, Kingston, RI, Charlotte, Bronx,NY, St. Bonaventure,NY(near Erie,PA & Buffalo,NY), Amherst,MA(north of Springfield,MA in western Mass), Pittsburgh and Washington DC and also go to class in St. Louis. Those are the athletes who would really enjoy playing their sports but life in the classroom can't be easy.
I'm pretty sure Butler would add back men's LaCrosse and to balance it out women's LaCrosse too.
Quote from: bbtds on April 10, 2012, 02:28:29 AM
Quote from: agibson on April 09, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
From that article
Quote
The trustee said Butler has not been formally asked to join the conference, and an A-10 spokesman said no invitation has been made.
So, indeed, perhaps it's all swamp gas?
It's certainly not all swamp gas. Having Butler join your conference, if only for basketball, would be a big plus for the conference. In many people's opinions in Indy it would be a bigger coup than getting Indiana or Purdue to leave the B1G.
But ask someone on the softball or men's soccer team at St. Louis University what it is like traveling to Richmond,VA, Philadelphia, Kingston, RI, Charlotte, Bronx,NY, St. Bonaventure,NY(near Erie,PA & Buffalo,NY), Amherst,MA(north of Springfield,MA in western Mass), Pittsburgh and Washington DC and also go to class in St. Louis. Those are the athletes who would really enjoy playing their sports but life in the classroom can't be easy.
I'm pretty sure Butler would add back men's LaCrosse and to balance it out women's LaCrosse too.
Butler has been considering LAX for years now, especially with new programs popping up at Detroit and Marquette. They've got other priorities, however.
This isn't smoke. The university is doing due diligence, and the A10 hasn't had the private "yes" answers from all parties yet. It will take a little time.
I would like to see Valpo add lacrosse, and with the new field house in the future, we'd have a place to do it.
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on April 16, 2012, 06:08:38 PM
I would like to see Valpo add lacrosse, and with the new field house in the future, we'd have a place to do it.
College lacrosse isn't played indoors...
Quote from: valpo04 on April 16, 2012, 07:39:04 PM
Quote from: okinawatyphoon on April 16, 2012, 06:08:38 PM
I would like to see Valpo add lacrosse, and with the new field house in the future, we'd have a place to do it.
College lacrosse isn't played indoors...
not for games necessarily, but a field house with an artificial turf surface can be their practice facility while using brown field for games. just a thought.
'04: Saw where Maryland upset Johns Hopkins in LAX this past weekend. The 108th meeting between the schools. Wow! Go Bluejays.
04, your avatar is not one of my favorites tonight >:(
Butler currently has a club lacrosse team after their NCAA Div.1 program was ended in 2007.
Butler Men's Lacrosse is member of the CCLA (Central Colligate Lacrosse Association). The CCLA is division of the MCLA (Men's Colligate Lacrosse Association), one of the top Club Lacrosse programs in the nation. The team is now in their 2nd season in the CCLA, and their 5th season as a club team.
The team is compromised of players of many levels of experience, ranging from 15 years of experice to athletes just learning the game. The team practices 4-5 days and plays about 12 games during the season.
In their first year in the CCLA, they were 2nd in their division and were the 8th seed in the playoffs.
History
Butler Men's Lacrosse began in 1993 at the NCAA Division I level and continued until 2007 when the University suddenly decided to disband the program.
However, many men at Butler still wanted to play lacrosse and a group of players started the Club team in March of 2007. Orginally coached by players, the team now employs a coach to lead the team.
http://butlerlacrosse.com/index.html (http://butlerlacrosse.com/index.html)
I think Valpo would need to start at the club level before jumping into NCAA Div1 lacrosse.
Quote from: setshot on April 16, 2012, 09:14:19 PM
'04: Saw where Maryland upset Johns Hopkins in LAX this past weekend. The 108th meeting between the schools. Wow! Go Bluejays.
Yes, quite the upset. Couldn't believe they held the Jays scoreless for nearly 30 mins!
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 16, 2012, 11:20:55 PM
04, your avatar is not one of my favorites tonight >:(
Can't dislike a smiley cartoon bird!!
The Orioles made the Sox look like... the Orioles of the past 14 years!
Quote from: valpo04 on April 17, 2012, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 16, 2012, 11:20:55 PM
04, your avatar is not one of my favorites tonight >:(
Can't dislike a smiley cartoon bird!!
The Orioles made the Sox look like... the Orioles of the past 14 years!
In spite of 2005, and quite to my surprise, I'm still doing a slow-burn from 1983. Tito-frickin-Landrum lucks into the one moment of perfect calm in an otherwise windy day; Flanagan ruins Kittle's career, Dempsey is shocked that Kittle would be upset, and Murray whines his way into a 3-run homer; the Dybber was hypnotized into the base-running gaffe of all base-running gaffes by that stupid emblem, thus vaulting Baltimore into a World Series that the White Sox would have swept (because McGregor can't win at home) -- and make no mistake, if you don't get downright lucky that gloomy Saturday, there's no way you beat LaMarr Hoyt (the only Sox player immune to the spell) on Sunday.
Am I bitter? Nah......
Actually, it's the White Sox that continually make the White Sox look like the Orioles of the past 14 years. Just like that stupid Game 4, last night's game was an absolute gift. I have no idea why the O's are Leviathan (God's rubber ducky) to everyone else and Galactus the planet eater to the White Sox, even when the Orioles suck. Whatever it is it continues to cast a pall on my baseball fandom. Maybe that's why I hang onto the Cardinals as my National League Team To Root For.
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 17, 2012, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: valpo04 on April 17, 2012, 07:49:59 AM
Quote from: StlVUFan on April 16, 2012, 11:20:55 PM
04, your avatar is not one of my favorites tonight >:(
Can't dislike a smiley cartoon bird!!
The Orioles made the Sox look like... the Orioles of the past 14 years!
In spite of 2005, and quite to my surprise, I'm still doing a slow-burn from 1983. Tito-frickin-Landrum lucks into the one moment of perfect calm in an otherwise windy day; Flanagan ruins Kittle's career, Dempsey is shocked that Kittle would be upset, and Murray whines his way into a 3-run homer; the Dybber was hypnotized into the base-running gaffe of all base-running gaffes by that stupid emblem, thus vaulting Baltimore into a World Series that the White Sox would have swept (because McGregor can't win at home) -- and make no mistake, if you don't get downright lucky that gloomy Saturday, there's no way you beat LaMarr Hoyt (the only Sox player immune to the spell) on Sunday.
Am I bitter? Nah......
Actually, it's the White Sox that continually make the White Sox look like the Orioles of the past 14 years. Just like that stupid Game 4, last night's game was an absolute gift. I have no idea why the O's are Leviathan (God's rubber ducky) to everyone else and Galactus the planet eater to the White Sox, even when the Orioles suck. Whatever it is it continues to cast a pall on my baseball fandom. Maybe that's why I hang onto the Cardinals as my National League Team To Root For.
Hoyt was unstoppable that year(maybe the coke?). If they could have made it to the next game...
I just saw a report on SB Nation that Butler will be joining the A-10 on May 1.
Thanks WH.
From the SB Nation website:
"Report: VCU And George Mason To Join Atlantic 10 On May 1
Apr
20
1:32p
by Mike Rutherford
On May 1, George Mason and VCU will be leaving the Colonial Athletic Association to join the Atlantic 10 Conference. This according to Lenn Robbins of the New York Post.
Robbins added that Butler will "probably" be joining the conference as well. The Bulldogs are currently a member of the Horizon League." [my emphasis]
Now VCU is saying there is nothing to the report that they will be moving to the A-10.
VCU denies report on A-10 plans
By Marc Davis
RICHMOND, VA (WWBT) - VCU is refuting a NY Post report which claims the Rams will defect from the CAA to join the Atlantic 10 conference by the end of the month.
The Post tweeted "George Mason and VCU to the A-10 on May 1...Butler probably...The Post has learned" Friday, adding fuel to speculation the Rams would switch conferences. However, sources at VCU are adamantly denying the report.
Last month CBS Sports reported VCU and GMU were in talks with the A-10, but VCU Athletic Director Norwood Teague sent out a statement saying that the school had no contact with other conferences.
11 years ago, the University of Richmond left the CAA to go to the A-10.
How can anybody leave on May 1? There could be an announcement May 1, but I think you'd want to announce it with approximately a season's lead time.
Quote from: agibson on April 22, 2012, 03:40:10 PM
How can anybody leave on May 1? There could be an announcement May 1, but I think you'd want to announce it with approximately a season's lead time.
not to mention that 1 may is still in the middle of the season for some spring sports, i believe. most places, the academic calendar (to include all things athletics) runs from 1 july to 30 june.
Good catch, sounds like a tweeter with more brawn than brains to me. July 1 was the cutoff when we jumped to the HL, it seems to me. He may have meant, "accepted in A-10" rather than moving to A-10, since you have to give your current conference 1 year advance notice (right?), but May 1 sounds very bogus unless they've changed the rules.
Quote from: bbtds on April 17, 2012, 06:17:57 AM
Butler currently has a club lacrosse team after their NCAA Div.1 program was ended in 2007.
Butler Men's Lacrosse is member of the CCLA (Central Colligate Lacrosse Association). The CCLA is division of the MCLA (Men's Colligate Lacrosse Association), one of the top Club Lacrosse programs in the nation. The team is now in their 2nd season in the CCLA, and their 5th season as a club team.
The team is compromised of players of many levels of experience, ranging from 15 years of experice to athletes just learning the game. The team practices 4-5 days and plays about 12 games during the season.
In their first year in the CCLA, they were 2nd in their division and were the 8th seed in the playoffs.
History
Butler Men's Lacrosse began in 1993 at the NCAA Division I level and continued until 2007 when the University suddenly decided to disband the program.
However, many men at Butler still wanted to play lacrosse and a group of players started the Club team in March of 2007. Orginally coached by players, the team now employs a coach to lead the team.
http://butlerlacrosse.com/index.html (http://butlerlacrosse.com/index.html)
I think Valpo would need to start at the club level before jumping into NCAA Div1 lacrosse.
If you're interested, Milwaukee plays in MCLA (which is where pretty much everyone who isn't NCAA plays club level)
As for Butler, May 1st would be right after the checks from the NCAA come in for the tournaments. So, BU/GMU/VCU would be waiting to collect those Final Four paydays one more time.
And it would be for 2013-14 at the earliest.
Yeah, announce on May 1 is not a problem. I saw your retweet this morning, bracing for the official report.
I am told Butler's Trustees meet May 9-11, and any official announcement from the university might come out of those meetings.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on April 22, 2012, 03:56:39 PM
Quote from: agibson on April 22, 2012, 03:40:10 PM
How can anybody leave on May 1? There could be an announcement May 1, but I think you'd want to announce it with approximately a season's lead time.
not to mention that 1 may is still in the middle of the season for some spring sports, i believe. most places, the academic calendar (to include all things athletics) runs from 1 july to 30 june.
The academic calendar makes the most sense. I would also question May 1.
Quote from: valpopal on April 23, 2012, 07:58:07 AM
I am told Butler's Trustees meet May 9-11, and any official announcement from the university might come out of those meetings.
that would make sense - announce in may 2012 and move to a-10 on 1 july 2013. gives them about a year to drum up support and all that jazz. i believe valpo's move to the horizon followed a similar timeframe.
A very interesting radio interview with Old Dominion's A.D. re. the prospects of GMU and VCU leaving the CAA. Even more interesting he is predicting major conf. reshuffling (musical chairs he calls it) within the next 2 weeks. The interview lasts 30 min., but most of the conf reshuffling discussion is in the first 15in.
http://georgemasonbasketball.blogspot.com/2012/04/odus-ad-says-new-round-of-conference.html?m=1 (http://georgemasonbasketball.blogspot.com/2012/04/odus-ad-says-new-round-of-conference.html?m=1)
Give the segment a minute or so to load...
From my sources, I came out with the understanding that it was to be anytime after May 1st - like May 1st was this day when things get wrapped up and you can expect the time.
"According to multiple sources, Butler's move from the Horizon League to the Atlantic 10 Conference is all but signed. After the Bulldogs clean up some in-house paperwork, an exit plan will be finalized and they will be off to join the likes of Xavier, Dayton, St. Joseph's and St. Louis, among others, in a league that regularly lands two teams in the NCAA Tournament - and in 2012 landed four...."http://www.cleveland.com/sports/csu/index.ssf/2012/04/on_the_furue_of_cleveland_stat.html
I've been hearing the same thing from my sources close to Butler. I know a guy who teaches at Brownsburg HS and their new basketball coach, who happens to be close to the Butler situation, very close, has been saying all along it's a done deal and Butler has simply been trying to work out the minor details. Of course my friend at Brownsburg didn't mention Ron Nored specifically and the info might also be coming through the Hayward family. They are members of the same Lutheran church in Brownsburg that my friend attends.
IMO, there is far far too much smoke for this to not be a done deal regarding Butler.
Looks like WAC football will officially die in 2013. It will be interesting to see the fallout from the death of WAC football and whether that affects the HL somehow. I'm wondering how far west the Sun Belt expands as a result. Will it tap NMSU? Hell, is Idaho in play? Doubtful but who knows anymore. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Hey WKU, I'm still lookin' at 'cha. Still want to travel that far west for all sports if a school like NMSU gets scooped up? Keep your football in the Belt and come on over.
Horizon target Markets: Indianapolis (Butler - leaving), Chicago (UIC, VU, Loyola) , Detroit UDM), Cleveland (CSU, YSU), Dayton (Wright State), WI (UWM and .......(100 mile stretch)......GB).
So...... We need to retain Indianapolis -- IUPUI? :-( .... and add a market. How about St. Louis? Can we steal one from there? How about a second school in the Detroit area? And Joe, you've got a point -- would WKU bring in a market?
Wow. All of these are within bussing distance [Butler's A-10 flipping travel budget is going to be incredible].
Wait! How about recruiting this mid-sized (what, maybe only 6000 under grads) catholic school -- Notre Dame? It's private, certainly lacks a national presence. Their facilities are OK, but they'd have to commit to some improvements. They are within bussing distance of most HL teams, and they desperately need to improve it's branding across the country. Perfect! We'll, maybe not -- South Bend, Indiana is not a very good market.
I think that it is funny that the article coins CSU as the next kingpin of the HL without Butler. Seems to me that we will have much to say about that.. He also thinks really big in suggesting the likes of IUPUI and Wayne State. You have to be kidding me! The only logical school would be Oakland. IUPUI brings absolutely nothing, and we aren't the Summit where we should be taking a school wanting to make a transition to D-1 (Wayne St if they moved up).
Important new development in the ongoing "Butler to A-10" saga:
http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-teague,0,462519.story?track=rss (http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-teague,0,462519.story?track=rss)
Quote from: wh on April 29, 2012, 07:21:22 AM
Important new development in the ongoing "Butler to A-10" saga:
http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-teague,0,462519.story?track=rss (http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-teague,0,462519.story?track=rss)
"The Colonial Athletic Association apparently will be spared, at least for a year, the splintering that many believed would occur this spring. Multiple sources directly involved with realignment discussions said Saturday afternoon that VCU athletic director Norwood Teague on Monday will recommend to university Michael Rao that the Rams remain in the CAA at least through the 2012-13 academic year. Teague has resigned to become Minnesota's athletic director, effective July 1."
I don't see much new or of significance in this, since most people believe the shift of teams to a new conference would not actually happen this season, but would take place in the 2013-2014 season. Announcements of intentions to migrate would occur this year, allowing a year of preparations and transition, just as Valpo did when leaving the Summit League. In addition, the quoted official is leaving the school, which minimizes his influence.
Not much new information, but another article on the topic.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120429/SPORTS0605/204290342/Do-dollars-make-sense-Butler-join-Atlantic-10-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Sports (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120429/SPORTS0605/204290342/Do-dollars-make-sense-Butler-join-Atlantic-10-?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CSports)
IF VCU indeed pulls back as recommended by their departing A.D. and GMU follows their lead, it would not surprise me to see Butler pull back as well. Note that there is now a scenario in play where Xavier and Dayton could be invited to join the Big East. I don't know how realistic it is, but IF that were to occur, Butler could find itself in an eastern seaboard league with a greatly diminished reputation - not at all what they thought they were signing up for. The last thing Butler would want to do is buy a pig in a poke.
It looks like some movement toward a decision has begun. From the Indy Star this morning:
"Butler athletic department employees have been called to a meeting this morning, and a potential move from the Atlantic 10 to the Horizon League is expected to be addressed. For weeks, there has been speculation that Butler would leave the Horizon and join the Atlantic 10 to enhance its men's basketball program.Butler, if moving to the Atlantic 10, would not play in the conference until the 2013-14 school year."
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
It looks like some movement toward a decision has begun. From the Indy Star this morning:
"Butler athletic department employees have been called to a meeting this morning, and a potential move from the Atlantic 10 to the Horizon League is expected to be addressed. For weeks, there has been speculation that Butler would leave the Horizon and join the Atlantic 10 to enhance its men's basketball program.Butler, if moving to the Atlantic 10, would not play in the conference until the 2013-14 school year."
I hope they decide to move, what a get it would be for the HL!!
Quote from: valpo04 on April 30, 2012, 09:38:34 AM
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
It looks like some movement toward a decision has begun. From the Indy Star this morning:
"Butler athletic department employees have been called to a meeting this morning, and a potential move from the Atlantic 10 to the Horizon League is expected to be addressed. For weeks, there has been speculation that Butler would leave the Horizon and join the Atlantic 10 to enhance its men's basketball program.Butler, if moving to the Atlantic 10, would not play in the conference until the 2013-14 school year."
I hope they decide to move, what a get it would be for the HL!!
Nice catch!
Quote from: valpo04 on April 30, 2012, 09:38:34 AM
Quote from: valpopal on April 30, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
It looks like some movement toward a decision has begun. From the Indy Star this morning:
"Butler athletic department employees have been called to a meeting this morning, and a potential move from the Atlantic 10 to the Horizon League is expected to be addressed. For weeks, there has been speculation that Butler would leave the Horizon and join the Atlantic 10 to enhance its men's basketball program.Butler, if moving to the Atlantic 10, would not play in the conference until the 2013-14 school year."
I hope they decide to move, what a get it would be for the HL!!
i lol'd
An update from today's indystar.com regarding Butler's move to the Atlantic 10.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20120430/SPORTS0605/120430022/Butler-Bulldogs-Atlantic-10-relationship-hold (http://www.indystar.com/article/20120430/SPORTS0605/120430022/Butler-Bulldogs-Atlantic-10-relationship-hold)
This morning's note from ESPN matches information I have reported here in the past, that Butler will most likely make an official announcement after their trustees meet May 9-11:
"The Butler Bulldogs (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2086/butler-bulldogs) and the A-10 are expected to come a resolution within two weeks, according to at least one source close to the situation. The plan would be for Butler to join the A-10 for the 2013-14 season and replace the Temple Owls (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/218/temple-owls). Butler has always been the first choice for the A-10, once the Owls were on the move to the Big East. If A-10 commissioner Bernadette McGlade pulls this off it should go down as the second most significant basketball realignment coup behind the ACC getting the Syracuse Orange (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/183/syracuse-orange) and the Pittsburgh Panthers (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/221/pittsburgh-panthers) from the Big East. The A-10 would be at 14 if it gets Butler. Expanding to 16, which isn't a necessity, is the only way the VCU Rams (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2670/virginia-commonwealth-rams) and George Mason Patriots (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2244/george-mason-patriots) come into the picture out of the CAA."
This is getting interesting...rumors have Charlotte leaving the A10 and ODU leaving the CAA to join CUSA.
According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says)
QuoteButler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 01, 2012, 07:28:58 PM
This is getting interesting...rumors have Charlotte leaving the A10 and ODU leaving the CAA to join CUSA.
What do you mean "getting"? It's been interesting for a while now.
CUSA to add six schools:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/18923863/conference-usa-reloading-by-adding-6-schools (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/18923863/conference-usa-reloading-by-adding-6-schools)
Did I mention already that WAC football is dead?
The bell is now tolling for the Horizon League.
LeCrone's next move could mean the difference between survival and extinction.
My advice: find a way to scuttle Youngstown; don't add IPFW, IUPUI or any of the Dakota schools; add Oakland; and try to expand the league's footprint to the south.
One of the posters on WSU's board did some decent research into some teams from lower rated conferences that might want to mkae the jump up to the HL.
Oakland
Current conference: Summit
RPI the last 5 years: 141, 53, 52, 122, 169
NCAA appearances: 05, 10, 11
Facilities: Athletics Center O'rena, seats: 4055, 2012 attendance: 3346
Budget: 10 million
Location: Detroit, MI
Robert Morris
Current conference: Northeast
RPI the last 5 years: 100, 100, 129, 109, 132
NCAA appearances: 82, 83, 89, 90, 92, 09, 10
Facilities: Sewall Center, seats: 3056, 2012 attendance: 1477
Budget: 13 million
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Drexel (if VCU and George Mason leave the CAA)
Current conference: CAA
RPI the last 5 years: 66, 74, 146, 133, 238
NCAA appearances: 86, 94, 95, 96
Facilities: Daskalakis Athletic Center, seats: 2300, 2012 attendance:2185
Budget: 16 million
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Murray State
Current conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 22, 117, 57, 148, 189
NCAA appearances: 64, 69, 88, 90, 91, 95, 97, 98, 99, 02, 04, 06, 10, 12
Facilities:
Budget: 13 million
Location: Murray, KY
Morehead St
Current conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 166, 77, 84, 141, 233
NCAA appearances: 56, 57, 61, 83, 84, 09, 11
Facilities: Johnson Arena, seats: 6500, 2012 attendance: 2241
Budget: 7.5 million
Location: Morehead, KY
Belmont
Current conference: Atlantic Sun
RPI the last 5 years: 58, 51, 135, 124, 76
NCAA appearances: 06, 07, 08, 11, 12
Facilities: Curb Event Center, seats: 5000, 2012 attendance: 2012
Budget: 8 million
Location: Nashville, TN
Northern Kentucky
Current conference: entering the Atlantic Sun in 2012/13
RPI the last 5 years: NA (D2)
NCAA appearances: NA (D2)
Facilities: Bank of Kentucky Center, seats: 9400, 2012 attendance: 1796
Budget: 5.8 million
Location: Highland Hts, KY
http://www.wrightstate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2512 (http://www.wrightstate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2512)
Good stuff, Big D.
Southward expansion may be the key.
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 01, 2012, 08:51:20 PMOne of the posters on WSU's board did some decent research into some teams from lower rated conferences that might want to mkae the jump up to the HL.
Nice list but several of these are non-starters. Murray plays football in the OVC and will have zero interest. Belmont is moving to the OVC, once again no interest. The last tme the league had a Philly school it was a flop. Drexel will have better alternatives than the HL. I would love to add Robert Morris but they seem to consider themselves east coast, plus I think there is a football conflict. I doubt Morehead would leave the OVC but there is no football conflict. Obviously Oakland works for us and would jump to join. NKU is not even D1 yet but the HL is a better alternative for them not sure about us. Personally, and selfishly, I would add IUPUI. I would make them play conference games at Bankers Life and add baseball.
The OVC is a :censored: conference. I think any of those schools would be willing to listen to the HL's pitch, but in the end I think you are right. I think Robert Morris would be interested if Drexel was involved. I don't think Drexel is going to have as many options as you think if VCU and George Mason leaves the CAA. The rest of that conference is made of football schools. There are several small east coast conferences they can look at, but the HL is still a much higher rated conference than any of them. Northern Kentucky enters their first year of D1 next year. I think they would be a good option 5-10 years from now after they are more established in D1. Oakland is the obvious choice if we add 1 team. Personally, I would love to add Drexel, Robert Morris, and Oakland and split to east/west divisions.
WISH-TV confirmed Butler's move to the A-10 on tonight's 11:00 news. The announcement will be made tomorrow morning for Butler to begin play in 2013 with a $50,000 exit fee to the Horizon League.
Quote from: Valpo71 on May 01, 2012, 10:34:06 PM
WISH-TV confirmed Butler's move to the A-10 on tonight's 11:00 news. The announcement will be made tomorrow morning for Butler to begin play in 2013 with a $50,000 exit fee to the Horizon League.
i wonder if it'd be a lot higher if they weren't forfeiting the ncaa money over the next several years.
Tough to see Butler go. I think adding Oakland should become a high priority for the Horizon League.
Nothing against Butler, but hopefully they don't find themselves in over their head in the A-10. A major part of their success was the nice surprise of Gordon Hayward. IIRC, Matt Howard fell to them after a scholarship crunch at Purdue. They obviously put in hard work to get where they are, but you'd have to be naive not to realize they had some luck on their side. Side note, I wonder how this affects all of their other sports?
I guess we have to enjoy kicking the crap out of Butler this year in all HL sports (13-4-2 in men/women's basketball, baseball, softball, men/women's soccer, volleyball), as well as hopefully next year :). They won't be scheduling us in men's basketball anytime in the near future, but we will probably still play them occasionally in other sports as we always have.
Good move for them, can't fault them. Hopefully we move forward with Oakland, and maybe two others that were mentioned. I would also agree that a move into KY or TN might benefit the HL with our main national player leaving.
Quote from: dylanrocks on May 01, 2012, 08:32:22 PM
The bell is now tolling for the Horizon League.
LeCrone's next move could mean the difference between survival and extinction.
My advice: find a way to scuttle Youngstown; don't add IPFW, IUPUI or any of the Dakota schools; add Oakland; and try to expand the league's footprint to the south.
There is no way Butler leaving causes the HLL to go extinct. Frankly, that is the kind of thing I would expect Butler people to say. Will they be missed? Of course this does not kill the league.
Agree. No question that losing Butler is a major development, but life will go on. Personally, I think bringing in a bunch more teams at this point would be a mistake. Ten is a good max number for us. Oakland has done a great job of recruiting in recent years, despite the disadvantage of attracting recruits to play in the Summit. They should recruit even better in the HL and thus would give us a better chance of meeting our goal of a higher conf RPI and multiple bids. Between our league office and our various athletic offices, I am confident that we have plenty of smart people that will lead us through this.
Losing Butler will also hurt the other teams in the HL in recruiting a bit. I remember reading an article called "The Butler effect" where it was interviewing some coaches from the HL. McCallum was saying his second sentence to a recruit after introducing himself was something along the lines of playing in the HL with Butler. This was after Butler went to back to back titles.
Like others have said, losing Butler will hurt, but it wont kill the HL. They'll be just fine. I think Butler will be fine in the A10 as well. Stevens is a great coach who now how more TV time, and can still get recruits. Would be nice to see Oakland in the HL.
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 01, 2012, 08:51:20 PM
One of the posters on WSU's board did some decent research into some teams from lower rated conferences that might want to mkae the jump up to the HL.
Oakland
Current conference: Summit
RPI the last 5 years: 141, 53, 52, 122, 169
NCAA appearances: 05, 10, 11
Facilities: Athletics Center O'rena, seats: 4055, 2012 attendance: 3346
Budget: 10 million
Location: Detroit, MI
Robert Morris
Current conference: Northeast
RPI the last 5 years: 100, 100, 129, 109, 132
NCAA appearances: 82, 83, 89, 90, 92, 09, 10
Facilities: Sewall Center, seats: 3056, 2012 attendance: 1477
Budget: 13 million
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Drexel (if VCU and George Mason leave the CAA)
Current conference: CAA
RPI the last 5 years: 66, 74, 146, 133, 238
NCAA appearances: 86, 94, 95, 96
Facilities: Daskalakis Athletic Center, seats: 2300, 2012 attendance:2185
Budget: 16 million
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Murray State
Current conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 22, 117, 57, 148, 189
NCAA appearances: 64, 69, 88, 90, 91, 95, 97, 98, 99, 02, 04, 06, 10, 12
Facilities:
Budget: 13 million
Location: Murray, KY
Morehead St
Current conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 166, 77, 84, 141, 233
NCAA appearances: 56, 57, 61, 83, 84, 09, 11
Facilities: Johnson Arena, seats: 6500, 2012 attendance: 2241
Budget: 7.5 million
Location: Morehead, KY
Belmont
Current conference: Atlantic Sun
RPI the last 5 years: 58, 51, 135, 124, 76
NCAA appearances: 06, 07, 08, 11, 12
Facilities: Curb Event Center, seats: 5000, 2012 attendance: 2012
Budget: 8 million
Location: Nashville, TN
Northern Kentucky
Current conference: entering the Atlantic Sun in 2012/13
RPI the last 5 years: NA (D2)
NCAA appearances: NA (D2)
Facilities: Bank of Kentucky Center, seats: 9400, 2012 attendance: 1796
Budget: 5.8 million
Location: Highland Hts, KY
http://www.wrightstate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2512 (http://www.wrightstate.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2512)
If the logic is to only go to 10, IMO, the actual glaring omission on that list is Western Kentucky. This school has a much better basketball history in general than anyone on that list and still opens up a footprint in the "south." Plus, of the football schools mentioned above, it is the only school located in a conference whose current geographical footprint may expand to the point where moving all sports other than football to a more geographically compact conference actually makes economic sense.
Here's the official Horizon League response:
Statement from Horizon League Commissioner Jon LeCrone Concerning Butler University
INDIANAPOLIS -- A statement from Horizon League Commissioner Jon LeCrone regarding Butler University:
"This morning, I was informed by President James Danko of Butler's decision to withdraw from the Horizon League and affiliate with another conference. The Horizon League is among 25 NCAA Division I conferences whose membership has been impacted by realignment over the past two years.
"We are proud of the role the Horizon League played in providing a platform for Butler to significantly improve its athletics programs and achieve the highest level of national competitiveness in men's basketball.
"We are committed to sustaining those same opportunities for all League members. Under the leadership of our board of directors, we have an aggressive growth agenda which has been in the planning stages for some time. That agenda is values based, collaborative, measured, informed and principled.
"We are excited about the possibilities that lie ahead. The Horizon League will continue to be defined by our student-athletes as they compete, serve and learn. It is our student-athletes who encompass the best values of higher education and intercollegiate athletics."
So, the May 1 tip was about right, after all.
RIP Butler of the Horizon League. Well, after one more season, and hopefully a couple of more losses to Valpo.
I understand their move is all about men's basketball, but nonetheless, I find it interesting that in revenue sports Butler is finishing a really bad year in the Horizon.
Here is where they finished or are currently placed:
Men's basketball 4th
Women's BB 5th
Men's soccer 8th
Women's soccer 6th
Baseball 5th
Softball 5th
In the meantime, in only our 5th year, Valpo does this:
Men's Basketball 1st
Women's BB 8th
Men's Soccer 1st
Women's soccer 3rd
Baseball 2nd
Softball 1st
Butler does have one heck of a Cross Country tradition though! ;)
I wonder about the following in the commissioner's statement:
"Under the leadership of our board of directors, we have an aggressive growth agenda which has been in the planning stages for some time."
In my thinking, to live up to this comment about "an aggressive growth agenda," the Horizon League will need to be bold and not just invite one team to replace Butler on the schedule. That would be boring. This might be the right time to take some steps toward a more ambitious future for the league. Otherwise, I will be disappointed.
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2012, 09:46:14 AM
I understand their move is all about men's basketball, but nonetheless, I find it interesting that in revenue sports Butler is finishing a really bad year in the Horizon.
Here is where they finished or are currently placed:
Men's basketball 4th
Women's BB 5th
Men's soccer 8th
Women's soccer 6th
Baseball 5th
Softball 5th
In the meantime, in only our 5th year, Valpo does this:
Men's Basketball 1st
Women's BB 8th
Men's Soccer 1st
Women's soccer 3rd
Baseball 2nd
Softball 1st
Butler does have one heck of a Cross Country tradition though! ;)
Whatever makes you happy, I guess.
Butler Claims Record-Setting Eighth McCafferty Trophy (06/01/2011)
INDIANAPOLIS – On the strength of six Horizon League postseason championships, Butler University has won the James J. McCafferty Trophy as the Horizon League's all-sports champion for the second straight year and the eighth time overall. For the Bulldogs, their eighth title snaps a tie with former League members Notre Dame and Oral Roberts.
The six titles allowed Butler to cruise to the 2010-11 title by an 8.5-point margin over runner-up Milwaukee. The Bulldogs started the year in historic fashion, winning regular season or tournament championships in all five fall sports, building what would prove to be an insurmountable lead.
The Bulldogs added to their points haul by winning the Horizon League Men's Basketball Championship before the women's golf team took home the League title and the softball team advanced to the League championship, building Butler's total of 59 points.
Milwaukee finished runner-up to Butler for the second consecutive season, finishing in the top three of the McCafferty standings for the 12th straight year. The Panthers started the 2010-11 season with the women's soccer title before sweeping both men's and women's indoor and outdoor track and adding the men's swimming title in the winter.
With a strong spring season, Cleveland State jumped to third in the standings; the Vikings collected Horizon League titles in men's tennis and men's golf.
Wright State claimed its lone League championship in the final sport of the year, sweeping through the baseball tournament to narrowly pass Green Bay for fourth place in the final standings. The Phoenix captured crowns in women's basketball and women's swimming.
Picking up titles in women's tennis and softball, UIC climbed to sixth in the final standings. City rival Loyola was immediately behind in seventh, while Youngstown State, Detroit and Valparaiso rounded out the standings, respectively.
Named in honor of James J. McCafferty, who served as the conference's first commissioner from 1979-80, the McCafferty Trophy is awarded annually by the Horizon League to a member institution compiling the greatest number of performance points, based on their finish in the League's 19 championship sports. For the sports of men's and women's soccer, volleyball, men's and women's basketball, softball and baseball, points are awarded based on combined regular-season (60 percent) and championship (40 percent) finishes. For all other sports, points are based on performance in the League championships.
McCafferty Trophy Standings
School, Points (Titles)
1. Butler, 59 (6)
2. Milwaukee, 50.5 (6)
3. Cleveland State, 39.5 (2)
4. Wright State, 28.5 (1)
5. Green Bay, 28 (2)
6. UIC, 25.5 (2)
7. Loyola, 25 (0)
8. Youngstown State, 17 (0)
9. Detroit, 14 (0)
10. Valparaiso, 13 (0)
Men's Sports Totals
School, Points (Titles)
1. Butler, 25 (3)
2. Milwaukee, 23 (3)
3. Cleveland State, 22.5 (2)
4. Wright State, 17.5 (1)
5. UIC, 15 (0)
6. Green Bay, 13 (0)
t-7. Loyola, 9 (0)
t-7. Youngstown State, 9 (0)
t-9. Detroit, 5 (0)
t-9. Valparaiso, 5 (0)
Women's Sports Totals
School, Points (Titles)
1. Butler, 34 (3)
2. Milwaukee, 27.5 (3)
3. Cleveland State, 17 (0)
4. Loyola, 16 (0)
5. Green Bay, 15 (2)
6. Wright State, 11 (0)
7. UIC, 10.5 (1)
8. Detroit, 9 (0)
t-9. Valparaiso, 8 (0)
t-9. Youngstown State, 8 (0)
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2012, 09:46:14 AMI find it interesting that in revenue sports Butler is finishing a really bad year in the Horizon.
Here is where they finished or are currently placed:
Men's basketball 4th
Women's BB 5th
Men's soccer 8th
Women's soccer 6th
Baseball 5th
Softball 5th
Isn't this stretching the definition of "revenue sport" rather far?
By revenue I mean that you have to pay to see these sports. You don't have to pay to see a crosss country meet!
I suppose you could also classify them as the sports garnering the most fan interest.
Quote from: KL31NY on May 01, 2012, 07:47:27 PM
According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says)
QuoteButler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.
Before I forget, the condescending, dismissive Andy Katz can bite me.
The HL will be just fine in adding Oakland in all sports. They are very competitive across all sports, so the only real drop-off will be out-of-conference solid wins, unless we pick up where Butler left off (very possible at least this year). I also agree that to follow-up the growth comment, they appear to be looking at adding 3 schools. In addition to IPFW and IUPUI, I don't think that SDSU or NDSU would help the conference. Their ultimate goals will be in a FBS conference (WAC, MWC, etc) due to their strong football programs. We want schools that won't view us as a stop-gap on the way to bigger things.
Quote from: valpotx on May 02, 2012, 10:55:48 AMso the only real drop-off will be out-of-conference solid wins, unless we pick up where Butler left off (very possible at least this year).
This would be fantastic, but really seem to be our bugaboo. We seem to often have pretty good teams, that can do pretty well against similar competition. But, we _very_ rarely beat top-25 teams. Or top-50. It'd feel really good to pick up one or two of these next season.
Quote from: vu72 on May 02, 2012, 10:25:58 AMBy revenue I mean that you have to pay to see these sports. You don't have to pay to see a crosss country meet!
Ah, funny! I do take your meeting. But, the usage I'm used to seeing is to distinguish sports that generate a net profit (by some definition) for the university. Many places this is football, and men's basketball.
Quote from: valpotx on May 02, 2012, 10:55:48 AM
The HL will be just fine in adding Oakland in all sports. They are very competitive across all sports, so the only real drop-off will be out-of-conference solid wins, unless we pick up where Butler left off (very possible at least this year). I also agree that to follow-up the growth comment, they appear to be looking at adding 3 schools. In addition to IPFW and IUPUI, I don't think that SDSU or NDSU would help the conference. Their ultimate goals will be in a FBS conference (WAC, MWC, etc) due to their strong football programs. We want schools that won't view us as a stop-gap on the way to bigger things.
I agree. I think Oakland is the best choice to fill a spot right now. But I also believe the Horizon League would like to maintain a presence in Indianapolis, thus could lean toward inviting IUPUI. Given that, the logical other team to invite, for geographical purposes and a few others, would be IPFW. Oakland, IUPUI, and IPFW would not be the most exciting trio to add, but they would seem the easiest to blend into the league, create travel partners, and maintain a following in the region. For a number of reasons, all three should jump at the opportunity.
I could eventually wrap my mind around this idea if IUPUI brought back baseball (went away my FR year in 2000-2001 I believe), as Oakland/IPFW/IUPUI would bring us to 8 baseball teams again. I don't think IPFW/IUPUI add much value in the main revenue producer of men's basketball, being commuter campuses.
Don't dismiss Murray State or Morehead, and the WKU tout has merit.
As a Murray grad, I know the program has not been all that happy with recent moves into the conference, although the Belmont move is intriguing. In the past 15 years the OVC has made some additions that have hurt RPI and affected the history of the league. And their football program has never been good and frankly would fit in well with the likes of the Pioneer league. Morehead is an OVC school and plays in the Pioneer League.
And as a Racer, there's nothing I'd love more than to see them join.
But I think the HIlltoppers are the most plausible of the southern possibilities. They're in a terrible hoops conference and their football has never been solid, at least not since Jack Harbaugh was there.
Just a thought or two.
Any word on what the MVC is doing with all the movement going on? They have 10 schools currently, but who knows if any of theirs get poached as well. Wouldn't it be funny if we somehow turned our back on the HL and got into the MVC? :o
HL Commissioner Jon LeCrone is holding a press conference at 2 p.m. Eastern/ 1 Central. Apparently, it will be carried live on the HLN
http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html (http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html)
(They have removed it as a live event, so I don't know what's going on.)
I'm listening to it now:
http://www.horizonleague.org/live/6312 (http://www.horizonleague.org/live/6312)
What did he say?
Listening to the Commissioner's conference, I came away with a few notes.
First, he spoke about expansion as though the league wants to add more than one team if they can, probably three is my guess.
Second, Oakland is a prime candidate. Much was made about the possible veto by a member (Detroit) being overruled by unanimous vote of the other teams in the league. It was obvious that Oakland was on the mind of the commissioner and others.
Third, the league office is remaining in Indianapolis and the league will co-host an NCAA regional there in 2013-2014. It seems the Horizon League wants to maintain a presence in the Indy market, which gives IUPUI an advantage.
Fourth, if Oakland and IUPUI are added, another team would likely be in the mix as well--whether it would be IPFW from the Summit or Evansville from the MVC or any other team--since the commissioner spoke about expansion and looking ahead.
Fifth, the commissioner used the word "measured" repeatedly, which could be perceived as cautious at best, when I wish he had used another term like "ambitious" to describe the steps ahead. To keep from losing future recruits and interest in the league, I would like to have seen a more energetic and bold approach promised.
Here it is in its entirety:
http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html (http://www.horizonleague.org/video.html)
There is no sound before the first 3 min. 20 sec.
Quote from: wh on May 02, 2012, 01:44:37 PM
There is no sound before the first 3 min. 20 sec.
Richard Nixon and H.R. Haldeman could not be reached for comment.
Although I would agree that a more aggressive stance would have been good, I certainly understand his position. It was said earlier, possibly by you wh, that the A-10 may have some additional defections would make the remaining teams no better than the Horizon. There will be some additional shifting, no doubt. Why not let the chips fall where they may and then go for someone more impressive than IUPUI. A Valley private school like Drake or Evansville would be terrific and raise our profile.
Certainly several of the questions thrown at him had "Oakland" written all over them. Rob Demovsky (I think) asked about arena size, for example.
My takeaway is that it is not true that Detroit had to get TWO other schools to agree with their veto of Oakland several years ago. Only one was necessary. If Loyola is still of that mindset, Oakland can still be blocked.
I would kill to see Oakland added.
Even as I say this, I find all this talk of poaching teams from other conferences distasteful. I still have feelings for the Summit League, who is already losing one of its stronger members. I would hope that if Oakland truly has not outgrown the Summit League, they would decline the offer. I don't know how to define "outgrown", mind you, but I would hope those who are responsible for these kinds of decisions are defining that concept responsibly. I sensed that LeCrone finds this very aspect the most distasteful aspect of all.
As for Butler, my feelings right now are to wish them luck. One year from now, that will change to "Don't let the door slam you in the butt on the way out." No hard feelings, mind you, but it's sort of like Pink Floyd carrying on without Roger Waters. They're leaving, so most of my love for them will go along with it. They'll be just another mid-major: I'll root for them, unless they're playing a HL team (which is really no different than it is now), and I won't be paying nearly as much attention to them as I have been these 5 years and will next year.
By the way, I don't think this is going to affect home conference games against Butler next year around the HL. They already inspire our best. What I do remember from 6 years ago was the contention by some that Valpo was getting shafted on a regular basis by Mid-Con refs. I wonder if that will be the perception this time around with Butler?
Quote from: wh on May 02, 2012, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on May 01, 2012, 07:47:27 PM
According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says)
QuoteButler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.
Before I forget, the condescending, dismissive Andy Katz can bite me.
Andy Katz can bite you if it makes you feel better...but unfortunately he's right.
Quote from: milanmiracle on May 02, 2012, 04:01:38 PM
Quote from: wh on May 02, 2012, 10:33:49 AM
Quote from: KL31NY on May 01, 2012, 07:47:27 PM
According to Andy Katz, done deal: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/7879598/butler-bulldogs-join-atlantic-10-conference-all-sports-source-says)
QuoteButler's departure will crush the Horizon League. The Horizon League is left with lower-profile Midwestern schools in Cleveland State, Loyola (Ill.), Detroit, Illinois-Chicago, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Valparaiso, Wright State and Youngstown State.
Before I forget, the condescending, dismissive Andy Katz can bite me.
Andy Katz can bite you if it makes you feel better...but unfortunately he's right.
Whether he's right remains to be seen.
Oakland definitely interested in joining HL:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120502/SPORTS0203/205020437/Oakland-definitely-interested-move-Horizon-League?odyssey=tab (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120502/SPORTS0203/205020437/Oakland-definitely-interested-move-Horizon-League?odyssey=tab)
I say we forget about who to add to the HL and just move to the Missouri Valley.
Interesting thought from the Butler board:
My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions. They really want Morehead, Murray, and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal.
Two 6-team divisions - north and south.
can someone insert a poll? Who would rather join the missouri valley or stay with a horizon league minus butler addition oakland?
Quote from: wh on May 03, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
Interesting thought from the Butler board:
My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions. They really want Morehead, Murray, and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal.
Two 6-team divisions - north and south.
The state system would rather see Murray, Morehead and Eastern stay together. No sense in the trio-with-NKU argument if they want to include a new school which isn't even D-I yet and leave a long-standing D-I member, EKU, behind.
Quote from: wh on May 03, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
Interesting thought from the Butler board:
My understanding is the people who run the Kentucky state university system are pissed off at the OVC for allowing NKU's membership application to be blackballed by the conferences Tennessee member institutions. They really want Morehead, Murray and NKU in the same conference. So there is a chance all three could move somewhere as a package deal.
Two 6-team divisions - north and south.
Yes, please.
Let's hope our commissioner is thinking outside the box on this one and not contemplating a one-for-one replacement.
If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO. Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each. You could also obtain a decent public private mix that way. All of this movement is contingent of course on many things, one of which is that the football schools can find places for their football programs while moving to the HL.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 05, 2012, 06:40:13 AM
If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO. Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each.
Western Kentucky has been approached in the past. They had no interest when they played 1-AA football. Now that they are true D1, there isn't a chance in hell they would come to the HL. They have spent a ton of money upgrading their football in the last few years. They are eyeing a move up to one of the better football conferences. I've been advocating for the HL to expand into PA. I think that would even be stretching the boundaries of the HL more than the HL wants. I don't see any way they would go as far as NY. These conferences that are expanding into far reaching states are doing it to gain media markets to help them negotiate better TV contracts. The increased money off sets the extra travel costs. The HL isn't going to be in the mix for a huge TV contract with any of the teams we are going to able to add to our conference. Even if we still had Butler and could add Western Ky, Murray State, Oakland, and the top remaining teams for the CAA and we still wouldn't be able to get a good enough TV contract to off set those extra travel costs.
Take a look at this, fellow HL fans. I'm sure it's the last time it will ever be put up for public display on the butler board:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApY4M_YB3zBBdEVjemE4NDEzcTQzaXNrZ0NwOXI4cGc&output=html
Remember all the criticism about our high school gym. Well lookie here - no fewer than 5 A-10 venues smaller than the ARC, some WAY smaller. Butler fans won't know who to ridicule first. Think attendance is low at some of our venues? Look at some of the numbers in the mighty A-10 - pathetic. I see now why they call it the Atlantic-10. They have 10 low mid-major east coast colleges that have duped 4 upstanding midwestern universities with strong athletic programs and good facilities to carry their water for them. If I was a Butler fan, I'd be having the biggest case of buyer's remorse I've ever had in my life. Then again, we musn't forget all the potential benefits like making the tournament more often (I forgot they go all the time now), or how about getting a higher seed (I forgot, done that), or being ranked (never mind that), or advancing farther in the tournament (true they're a basket away from having done that yet). This is the best outcome they could think of in exchange for selling all their sports down the river in terms of travel time, time away from the classroom, limited ability of family and friends to attend away games, etc., etc., etc.
Butler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it. In the mean time we'll all be back here in the Midwest struggling along best we can without you. This whole move is either laughable or pathetic. I'm just not sure I can figure out which one...
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 05, 2012, 11:30:46 AM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 05, 2012, 06:40:13 AM
If you're going to consider going to 12 and splitting divisions, it doesn't make sense to saturate the state of Kentucky by itself IMO. Instead, you may as well go to 14 and try to raid the CAA if becomes unstable and establish a presence in the east coast (PA, MD, and NY), add a school like WKU to move "south", and then split divisions Central and Eastern with seven schools in each.
Western Kentucky has been approached in the past. They had no interest when they played 1-AA football. Now that they are true D1, there isn't a chance in hell they would come to the HL. They have spent a ton of money upgrading their football in the last few years. They are eyeing a move up to one of the better football conferences. I've been advocating for the HL to expand into PA. I think that would even be stretching the boundaries of the HL more than the HL wants. I don't see any way they would go as far as NY. These conferences that are expanding into far reaching states are doing it to gain media markets to help them negotiate better TV contracts. The increased money off sets the extra travel costs. The HL isn't going to be in the mix for a huge TV contract with any of the teams we are going to able to add to our conference. Even if we still had Butler and could add Western Ky, Murray State, Oakland, and the top remaining teams for the CAA and we still wouldn't be able to get a good enough TV contract to off set those extra travel costs.
As we did for NKU, you and I will have to agree to disagree about WKU. What happened when WKU was an FCS program is irrelevant, IMO. I certainly understand what you are saying, but conference reshuffling is far more prevalent now than it was then. If WKU wants to move up conference-wise and let football drive their bus, ok, no problem. But where are they going to go? The WAC? It's on its football deathbed. C-USA? Considering that they recently expanded by taking an absolute newbie in UTSA, there's no way WKU has a shot with them as everything stands right now. The MWC? If C-USA passed on them, so too will they. The MAC? I guess...
IMO, if the demise of the football WAC causes the Sun Belt to expand into places like New Mexico, or hell Idaho for that matter, even with split divisions this might cause a school like WKU pause for a moment and reflect. And it's not like other FBS schools aren't parking their football in one conference and placing the rest or nearly the rest of their sports in another to save on travel costs among other things. See Boise and SDSU as examples. I wouldn't say there's not a chance in hell, at least not yet.
As for your other comments, in general I would agree. I doubt the HL will want to tap into VA, MD or NY. That is fanciful. PA is probably stretching it as you mentioned. However, if the goal is to get to 12, I would think that an eastern movement into any of those states would be more preferable instead of oversaturating Kentucky.
Just my .02.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2012, 12:24:37 PMTake a look at this, fellow HL fans. I'm sure it's the last time it will ever be put up for public display on the butler board:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApY4M_YB3zBBdEVjemE4NDEzcTQzaXNrZ0NwOXI4cGc&output=html (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApY4M_YB3zBBdEVjemE4NDEzcTQzaXNrZ0NwOXI4cGc&output=html)
Remember all the criticism about our high school gym. Well lookie here - no fewer than 5 A-10 venues smaller than the ARC, some WAY smaller. Butler fans won't know who to ridicule first. Think attendance is low at some of our venues? Look at some of the numbers in the mighty A-10 - pathetic. I see now why they call it the Atlantic-10. They have 10 low mid-major east coast colleges that have duped 4 upstanding midwestern universities with strong athletic programs and good facilities to carry their water for them. If I was a Butler fan, I'd be having the biggest case of buyer's remorse I've ever had in my life. Then again, we musn't forget all the potential benefits like making the tournament more often (I forgot they go all the time now), or how about getting a higher seed (I forgot, done that), or being ranked (never mind that), or advancing farther in the tournament (true they're a basket away from having done that yet). This is the best outcome they could think of in exchange for selling all their sports down the river in terms of travel time, time away from the classroom, limited ability of family and friends to attend away games, etc., etc., etc.
Butler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it. In the mean time we'll all be back here in the Midwest struggling along best we can without you. This whole move is either laughable or pathetic. I'm just not sure I can figure out which one...
While you figure that out, I'll try to figure out if you are pathetic or just have mental issues.
I can tell you're hurt, gametime, as sometimes the truth does. How about this? Maybe there's some sort of 72-hr escape clause, or does that just apply to car loans and mortgages? Just trying to help...
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 05, 2012, 12:35:22 PM
As we did for NKU, you and I will have to agree to disagree about WKU. What happened when WKU was an FCS program is irrelevant, IMO. I certainly understand what you are saying, but conference reshuffling is far more prevalent now than it was then. If WKU wants to move up conference-wise and let football drive their bus, ok, no problem. But where are they going to go? The WAC? It's on its football deathbed. C-USA? Considering that they recently expanded by taking an absolute newbie in UTSA, there's no way WKU has a shot with them as everything stands right now. The MWC? If C-USA passed on them, so too will they. The MAC? I guess...
Personally I would love to add Western Ky. If the HL would have been able to add Valpo, Oakland, Western Ky, and Murray State instead of YSU years ago we would be one of the top non BCS basketball conferences out there and wouldn't be trying to find a replacement for Butler now. I used to be a WSU board member. Our former AD headed up the HL expansion committee. I know who we have approached in the past. We have approached Western Ky multiple times. They have much higher ambitions than the HL. They want to build a Memphis type athletic department and eventually get an invite to a BCS conference. They are more than willing to stay where they are at and continue to build their resume until the right offer comes. They will never consider coming to the HL, especially a HL without Butler. We have a better chance of getting Xavier to leave the A-10 and come back to the HL. In regards to KY, I agree I don't want to over saturate that area either. 1-2 schools would be more than enough.
Realistically, I think the HL will add Oakland sometime this summer and announce that we are still evaluating programs for future expansion. Adding Oakland stops the bleeding. It will take care of our need to add a university with a baseball team and it gives us a solid basketball program that will keep the HL from dropping much in RPI. That will also help us with future expansion. We only want to go beyond 10 schools if it can potentially get the HL into a position to be a multi-bid conference for the NCAAs. That is where the HL is going to make money and gain the ability to get a better long term TV contract. The MVC and A-10 get so many more games on TV than us because their teams are better known because of their NCAA success. Personally I would be happy with 12 or 14 schools if they make sense. I think 1-2 KY schools and 2 PA schools if they are strong programs make sense. I like Belmont too.
There is also rumors out there about the A-10 going after Creighton too. If that really does happen, I could see the MVC coming after a few HL schools or some of those MVC schools having interest in coming to the HL. If the A-10 is successful in raiding the MVC, HL, and CAA of our top programs, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of our conferences folding and the other 2 picking through the carcasses for the best teams. Should be an interesting next few years.
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2012, 12:24:37 PMButler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it.
I realize that I'm not immortal, but I hope I die on my timetable and not yours.
I understand your concern for what might happen to Butler, but I really think your life will be easier once they're gone. You can get rid of all the things (tourney format, scheduling, etc.) that were put in place to prop Butler up and get back to a conference where the NCAA tourney representative is determined "fairly". I think Butler's move will be a big positive for Valpo.
How about Robert Morris at a replacement. Located in Pittsburgh, they play in the Northeast Conference I think. 5000 students and private with a pretty decent athletic program. The location is very close to YSU so not really outside the "footprint". Just a thought.
rmu.edu
Quote from: vu72 on May 05, 2012, 06:43:47 PM
How about Robert Morris at a replacement. Located in Pittsburgh, they play in the Northeast Conference I think. 5000 students and private with a pretty decent athletic program. The location is very close to YSU so not really outside the "footprint". Just a thought.
rmu.edu
They are one of the teams I mentioned several pages back in this thread. Here is the post
OaklandCurrent conference: Summit
RPI the last 5 years: 141, 53, 52, 122, 169
NCAA appearances: 05, 10, 11
Facilities: Athletics Center O'rena, seats: 4055, 2012 attendance: 3346
Budget: 10 million
Location: Detroit, MI
Robert MorrisCurrent conference: Northeast
RPI the last 5 years: 100, 100, 129, 109, 132
NCAA appearances: 82, 83, 89, 90, 92, 09, 10
Facilities: Sewall Center, seats: 3056, 2012 attendance: 1477
Budget: 13 million
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Drexel (if VCU and George Mason leave the CAA)
Current conference: CAA
RPI the last 5 years: 66, 74, 146, 133, 238
NCAA appearances: 86, 94, 95, 96
Facilities: Daskalakis Athletic Center, seats: 2300, 2012 attendance:2185
Budget: 16 million
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Murray StateCurrent conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 22, 117, 57, 148, 189
NCAA appearances: 64, 69, 88, 90, 91, 95, 97, 98, 99, 02, 04, 06, 10, 12
Facilities:
Budget: 13 million
Location: Murray, KY
Morehead StCurrent conference: OVC
RPI the last 5 years: 166, 77, 84, 141, 233
NCAA appearances: 56, 57, 61, 83, 84, 09, 11
Facilities: Johnson Arena, seats: 6500, 2012 attendance: 2241
Budget: 7.5 million
Location: Morehead, KY
BelmontCurrent conference: Atlantic Sun
RPI the last 5 years: 58, 51, 135, 124, 76
NCAA appearances: 06, 07, 08, 11, 12
Facilities: Curb Event Center, seats: 5000, 2012 attendance: 2012
Budget: 8 million
Location: Nashville, TN
Northern KentuckyCurrent conference: entering the Atlantic Sun in 2012/13
RPI the last 5 years: NA (D2)
NCAA appearances: NA (D2)
Facilities: Bank of Kentucky Center, seats: 9400, 2012 attendance: 1796
Budget: 5.8 million
Location: Highland Hts, KY
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=726.165 (http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=726.165)
Another PA school mentioned on the WSU board:
BucknellCurrent conference: Patriot league
RPI the last 5 years: 91, 79, 258, 295, 204
NCAA appearances: 87, 89, 05, 06, 11
Facilities: Sojka Pavilion, seats: 4,000, 2012 attendance: 3191
Budget: 17.5 million
Location: Lewisburg, PA
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 05, 2012, 03:56:02 PM
Quote from: wh on May 05, 2012, 12:24:37 PMButler fans - you made your bed, now go die in it.
I realize that I'm not immortal, but I hope I die on my timetable and not yours.
Whoops, I meant lie, not die. I hope no one expires over this move. :)
Aside from Oakland, Murray State and Belmont are especially appealing.
Drop Youngstown State, and Morehead State would be a natural target.
Bungle this and the H League will be relegated to perpetual single-bid status.
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
A couple of other tidbits:
- the A-10 is signed up for the next 5 years in Brooklyn
- "all session" tickets are the best bargain ($125-250 ea.)
- according to CNN Money an avg. meal in NYC is $38. Avg at expensive restaurants $112 - the most expensive prices of any city in the country.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/ (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/)
Meanwhile, it's 426 miles from Valparaiso to Murray, Ky. and 443 miles from Valparaiso to Nashville, Tenn.
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
I'm in! Unless, of course, I die in my bed before then. ;)
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 06, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
I'm in! Unless, of course, I die in my bed before then. ;)
YOU may be in, but I wouldn't worry about starting up a "roll call" thread on the Butler board if I were you. ;)
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
A couple of other tidbits:
- the A-10 is signed up for the next 5 years in Brooklyn
- "all session" tickets are the best bargain ($125-250 ea.)
- according to CNN Money an avg. meal in NYC is $38. Avg at expensive restaurants $112 - the most expensive prices of any city in the country.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/ (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/)
If you want to play with the big boys, it's gonna cost you. Its not like the donations to the university havent been pouring in. I know they have. This is a chance to improve their national recognition, and quite honestly if Valpo would have capitalized on the Bryce Drew years, Valpo might be in a better position than they are now. Its been almost a decade since Valpo made the NCAA's and been a player in the national spotlight.
I am sure this has been discussed somewhere else, but what would the leagues RPI have been without Butler? I for one am happy for Butler and wish them nothing but success in the A10.
If you're happy for Butler, you must be thrilled for the A-10. Like DW said, they're getting a lot more out of this than Butler is.
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
A couple of other tidbits:
- the A-10 is signed up for the next 5 years in Brooklyn
- "all session" tickets are the best bargain ($125-250 ea.)
- according to CNN Money an avg. meal in NYC is $38. Avg at expensive restaurants $112 - the most expensive prices of any city in the country.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/ (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/)
I'm sure Butler fans are going to be thrilled with the loss of the free HLN too. The A-10 uses CBSsports.com to broadcast their games online. They charge $10 a month or $80 a year for it.
All this worry about how to replace Butler had me thinking (always a danger). Did anyone in the Horizon think that the league was in trouble/needed to add a team, before Valpo joined? Sure, the 10th team made travel easier as well as scheduling. But think about it, the Horizon is exactly where it was before Valpo except, Valpo has replaced Butler.
Now, I know that Butler has had more success than Valpo in basketball over the previous several years, but that is the past. Valpo has beaten them in the last four games and does anybody REALLY think that Butler will be better than Valpo over the next two, three or four? In other major sports Valpo has now emerged as a front runner/champion as well.
Valpo needs to take it to the next level with a nice NCAA tourney run this year and all will be forgotten. No worries... ;)
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 05, 2012, 02:57:13 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 05, 2012, 12:35:22 PM
As we did for NKU, you and I will have to agree to disagree about WKU. What happened when WKU was an FCS program is irrelevant, IMO. I certainly understand what you are saying, but conference reshuffling is far more prevalent now than it was then. If WKU wants to move up conference-wise and let football drive their bus, ok, no problem. But where are they going to go? The WAC? It's on its football deathbed. C-USA? Considering that they recently expanded by taking an absolute newbie in UTSA, there's no way WKU has a shot with them as everything stands right now. The MWC? If C-USA passed on them, so too will they. The MAC? I guess...
Personally I would love to add Western Ky. If the HL would have been able to add Valpo, Oakland, Western Ky, and Murray State instead of YSU years ago we would be one of the top non BCS basketball conferences out there and wouldn't be trying to find a replacement for Butler now. I used to be a WSU board member. Our former AD headed up the HL expansion committee. I know who we have approached in the past. We have approached Western Ky multiple times. They have much higher ambitions than the HL. They want to build a Memphis type athletic department and eventually get an invite to a BCS conference. They are more than willing to stay where they are at and continue to build their resume until the right offer comes. They will never consider coming to the HL, especially a HL without Butler. We have a better chance of getting Xavier to leave the A-10 and come back to the HL. In regards to KY, I agree I don't want to over saturate that area either. 1-2 schools would be more than enough.
Realistically, I think the HL will add Oakland sometime this summer and announce that we are still evaluating programs for future expansion. Adding Oakland stops the bleeding. It will take care of our need to add a university with a baseball team and it gives us a solid basketball program that will keep the HL from dropping much in RPI. That will also help us with future expansion. We only want to go beyond 10 schools if it can potentially get the HL into a position to be a multi-bid conference for the NCAAs. That is where the HL is going to make money and gain the ability to get a better long term TV contract. The MVC and A-10 get so many more games on TV than us because their teams are better known because of their NCAA success. Personally I would be happy with 12 or 14 schools if they make sense. I think 1-2 KY schools and 2 PA schools if they are strong programs make sense. I like Belmont too.
There is also rumors out there about the A-10 going after Creighton too. If that really does happen, I could see the MVC coming after a few HL schools or some of those MVC schools having interest in coming to the HL. If the A-10 is successful in raiding the MVC, HL, and CAA of our top programs, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of our conferences folding and the other 2 picking through the carcasses for the best teams. Should be an interesting next few years.
Regarding WKU and the HL's past, you would know better than I would as a Board member and by following this conference longer so I will defer. However, I read a couple of message boards this morning and it looks like the rumor is that NMSU will be going back to the Sun Belt again along with Appy St. If this is true, I still think the HL should approach WKU one more time and see what happens. The HL has nothing to lose, IMO.
On an unrelated note, the Big East commissioner resigned today. Interesting move to say the least.
Quote from: vu72 on May 07, 2012, 09:12:55 AM
Valpo has beaten them in the last four games and does anybody REALLY think that Butler will be better than Valpo over the next two, three or four?
Ok ... I'll take the bait on this one and raise my hand. Debating what "might" happen in the upcoming seasons is a pointless exercise, IMO, so I'm just setting a reminder to stop back over here in two, three and four years to see who was right. Deal? :thumbsup:
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 09, 2012, 08:38:16 AMOk ... I'll take the bait on this one and raise my hand. Debating what "might" happen in the upcoming seasons is a pointless exercise, IMO, so I'm just setting a reminder to stop back over here in two, three and four years to see who was right. Deal?
I hope that in the future the debate can be settled on the court, but my guess, after beating Butler once or twice next year they will drop us off their schedule which will be unfortunate.
Quote from: IndyValpo on May 09, 2012, 09:44:12 AM
Quote from: zvillehaze on May 09, 2012, 08:38:16 AMOk ... I'll take the bait on this one and raise my hand. Debating what "might" happen in the upcoming seasons is a pointless exercise, IMO, so I'm just setting a reminder to stop back over here in two, three and four years to see who was right. Deal?
I hope that in the future the debate can be settled on the court, but my guess, after beating Butler once or twice next year they will drop us off their schedule which will be unfortunate.
IndyValpo, Butler has basically already dropped Valpo from the schedule. It won't matter if Valpo beats Butler twice, the teams split, or Butler sweeps, after 2012-2013, we'll never see Butler on our schedule again.
The most detailed article I have read yet about Oakland's desire to replace Butler:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7911693/oakland-wants-take-butler-place-horizon-league)
Have not been following the board for a long time and just saw Butler departure. Has Bradley been mentioned as a possible new 10th?
Reasons....Bradley may want more Chicago games where students and alumni live. And Wisconsin trip a good one for them too. Going to Detroit and NE Ohio could be cheaper by plane via Chicago.
Horizon would get a private school replacement for Butler with some basketball history and identity. Peoria actually not much further for Valpo to travel than Indy.
Quote from: crusadermoe on May 10, 2012, 10:37:48 AMPeoria actually not much further for Valpo to travel than Indy.
Indy actually much easier to drive to due to that big windy city they call Chicago. Having spent much time driving the triangle between Peoria/Valpo/Indy. Peoria to Indy is longest but probably easiest.
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 06, 2012, 11:37:37 PM
Quote from: wh on May 06, 2012, 04:47:04 PM
I see that the A-10 will be holding it's 2013 conference tournament in Brooklyn, NY, a leisurely 711 mile drive from Indy. I understand they will also be offering special rates on hotel rooms - as low as $399/night. ;)
A couple of other tidbits:
- the A-10 is signed up for the next 5 years in Brooklyn
- "all session" tickets are the best bargain ($125-250 ea.)
- according to CNN Money an avg. meal in NYC is $38. Avg at expensive restaurants $112 - the most expensive prices of any city in the country.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/ (http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/22/pf/meals_averagecost/)
I'm sure Butler fans are going to be thrilled with the loss of the free HLN too. The A-10 uses CBSsports.com to broadcast their games online. They charge $10 a month or $80 a year for it.
I see that some Butler fans are just starting to figure out that they will only be playing home and home against 3 of 13 conference opponents. That means that likely they will only play H&H against 1 of the other 3 teams on the "western front" (X, SL, D). Those games have the potential for the biggest gates because the campuses are close enough to draw a lot of fans from the visiting schools. This will be a major drag on attendance at Hinkle vs. what it could be if the conference was set up in divisions.
Quote from: wh on May 10, 2012, 05:47:23 PM
I see that some Butler fans are just starting to figure out that they will only be playing home and home against 3 of 13 conference opponents. That means that likely they will only play H&H against 1 of the other 3 teams on the "western front" (X, SL, D). Those games have the potential for the biggest gates because the campuses are close enough to draw a lot of fans from the visiting schools. This will be a major drag on attendance at Hinkle vs. what it could be if the conference was set up in divisions.
I'm confused. Under the current scheduling system, Butler's 16 A-10 games will be home and home with Xavier, SLU and Dayton (six games; 3 home and 3 road) and a single game against the other 10 teams (5 home and 5 road). Are you claiming that's not the case?
Maybe I'm the one confused (wouldn't be the first time). I quickly looked at X's sched for past 4 years and the only opponent I saw consistently scheduled twice/yr was Dayton. Has the arrangement been changed with the addition of B?
Quote from: wh on May 10, 2012, 06:38:25 PM
Maybe I'm the one confused (wouldn't be the first time). I quickly looked at X's sched for past 4 years and the only opponent I saw consistently scheduled twice/yr was Dayton. Has the arrangement been changed with the addition of B?
Or maybe me. Looks like I may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion. :-[
This from a recent Dayton news article:
Butler will bolster the A-10's Midwest presence, along with UD, Xavier and Saint Louis, and could create new natural rivalries. Each conference team plays three schools twice and the others once. Wabler said the Bulldogs' three home-and-away opponents will be discussed at league meetings in May.
This gives us a little more insight, but it still doesn't explain how the league determines who plays whom home-and-away.
http://www.gobonnies.com/sports/m-baskbl/2011-12/releases/201105311f0gp8 (http://www.gobonnies.com/sports/m-baskbl/2011-12/releases/201105311f0gp8)
Well zville, here's what I found that kind of answers the question (maybe). Apparently, every A-10 team is assigned 3 "travel partners" which become their home and away opponents for the season. However, the travel partners of your travel partners are not necessarily the same. It looks pretty complicated. I now have a brain cramp and no longer care about this! ;)
According to CBS, VCU will announce tomorrow that it is leaving the Colonial Athletic League and moving to the A-10 along with Butler in 2013.
Link to the article:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989/vcu-joining-atlantic-10-in-2013 (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989/vcu-joining-atlantic-10-in-2013)
Most telling phrase from that article: in the very first sentence.
"industry sources told CBSSports.com".
It's no longer educational, or even athletic. It's an industry.
Mark Cuban and Malcolm Gladwell are right. 'Bout time to blow it up.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on May 14, 2012, 02:31:56 PM
Most telling phrase from that article: in the very first sentence.
"industry sources told CBSSports.com".
It's no longer educational, or even athletic. It's an industry.
Mark Cuban and Malcolm Gladwell are right. 'Bout time to blow it up.
If you mean the BCS conferences, by all means.
If you mean all of Division I, I'll have to part company with you. That's the easy way out. How about facing the truth head-on and reforming (for real this time) the institution of intercollegiate athletics? I don't have a grand proposal, but this is the kind of thinking that always rubs me the wrong way. I get the weariness regarding hypocrisy. But at the mid-major level, I think the ideal is still a realistic goal, albeit a very challenging one. At Kentucky, they're beyond reformation, clearly. But the Horizon League, for example? Hardly.
I'm not saying Mark Cuban is wrong about what's wrong with college sports. But if that's what his solution is, count me out.
What seems odd is that the A-10 wanted to add 3 teams to make it an even 16, but now they will be only 15- and they are ok with this?
My guess is that they will look at adding a 16th- Don't be surprised if they ask Loyola just to grab some Chicago market.
Quote from: motowntitan on May 14, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
What seems odd is that the A-10 wanted to add 3 teams to make it an even 16, but now they will be only 15- and they are ok with this?
My guess is that they will look at adding a 16th- Don't be surprised if they ask Loyola just to grab some Chicago market.
CBSSports.com reported two months ago that Virginia Commonwealth, George Mason and Butler were in discussions with the Atlantic 10.
On Friday, George Mason, which along with VCU and Butler had discussions with the Atlantic 10, announced it was staying in the CAA. However, sources told CBSSports.com at the present time the Atlantic 10 was looking to add only one more school and VCU got the nod over Mason.http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989 (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989)
Adding VCU was a significant addition. The A10 did a fantastic job of upgrading the conference in the flagship program...basketball.
It will be interesting to see what the CAA does in losing VCU, Georgia State, UMass, and probably ODU. I would have to think they are looking at adding Longwood since they are in VA. Longwood starts in the Big South next year, but could be easily swayed to the CAA.
Quote from: valpotx on May 15, 2012, 03:06:28 PM
It will be interesting to see what the CAA does in losing VCU, Georgia State, UMass and ... ODU.
Become a low-major league? Dissolve? Fold?
Join Valpo in forming a new D# league. :twocents:
I actually agree with setshot--
...at least in that the # of the D should be 1 (or I if you're classically inclined).
Quote from: valpotx on May 15, 2012, 03:06:28 PM
It will be interesting to see what the CAA does in losing VCU, Georgia State, UMass, and probably ODU. I would have to think they are looking at adding Longwood since they are in VA. Longwood starts in the Big South next year, but could be easily swayed to the CAA.
UMass isn't in the CAA. They are in the A-10.
Whoops, thanks for the catch
UMass is (was) a football member only of the CAA (FCS). They have gone D-I FBS in football and will now be in the MAC. I think they will remain A-10 for everything else.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on May 15, 2012, 06:51:50 PM
I actually agree with setshot--
...at least in that the # of the D should be 1 (or I if you're classically inclined).
i'm pretty sure he was intending to say D3. it just so happens the the # is the shift result of the 3 key.
Right on! ;D
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 16, 2012, 08:23:53 AMi'm pretty sure he was intending to say D3. it just so happens the the # is the shift result of the 3 key.
oh, i caught that. i was just correcting him.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on May 16, 2012, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on May 16, 2012, 08:23:53 AMi'm pretty sure he was intending to say D3. it just so happens the the # is the shift result of the 3 key.
oh, i caught that. i was just correcting him.
fair enough
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 14, 2012, 07:38:05 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on May 14, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
What seems odd is that the A-10 wanted to add 3 teams to make it an even 16, but now they will be only 15- and they are ok with this?
My guess is that they will look at adding a 16th- Don't be surprised if they ask Loyola just to grab some Chicago market.
CBSSports.com reported two months ago that Virginia Commonwealth, George Mason and Butler were in discussions with the Atlantic 10.
On Friday, George Mason, which along with VCU and Butler had discussions with the Atlantic 10, announced it was staying in the CAA. However, sources told CBSSports.com at the present time the Atlantic 10 was looking to add only one more school and VCU got the nod over Mason.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989 (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989)
and your point is?
I can read what is in the papers, or on-line- What is reported isn't always the final say.
Quote from: motowntitan on May 16, 2012, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: BigDWSU on May 14, 2012, 07:38:05 PM
Quote from: motowntitan on May 14, 2012, 05:57:30 PM
What seems odd is that the A-10 wanted to add 3 teams to make it an even 16, but now they will be only 15- and they are ok with this?
My guess is that they will look at adding a 16th- Don't be surprised if they ask Loyola just to grab some Chicago market.
CBSSports.com reported two months ago that Virginia Commonwealth, George Mason and Butler were in discussions with the Atlantic 10.
On Friday, George Mason, which along with VCU and Butler had discussions with the Atlantic 10, announced it was staying in the CAA. However, sources told CBSSports.com at the present time the Atlantic 10 was looking to add only one more school and VCU got the nod over Mason.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989 (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/brett-mcmurphy/19042989)
and your point is?
I can read what is in the papers, or on-line- What is reported isn't always the final say.
My point is the A-10 isn't looking for another school. They are currently touting the fact that they just added 2 teams that have been to the final 4 in the last 3 years. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that they aren't going to invite a 300+ RPI team to their conference next. The only thing Loyola has going for them is that they are located in Chicago. The problem is, they get less actual media coverage in Chicago than several high school teams in Chicago so they don't exactly offer any media markets. If you really think the A-10 is looking to add another school, you might want to check out Creighton and Old Dominion. Both of those schools are actually interested in going to the A-10 and would add something to the A-10.
ODU is headed to C-USA. Another CAA loss:
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/17/3026401/old-dominion-football-conference-usa-expansion (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/17/3026401/old-dominion-football-conference-usa-expansion)
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2012/05/old-dominion-conference-usa-caa/1#.T7UVfMWqYuc (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2012/05/old-dominion-conference-usa-caa/1#.T7UVfMWqYuc)
Quote from: crusaderjoe on May 17, 2012, 10:11:16 AM
ODU is headed to C-USA. Another CAA loss:
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/17/3026401/old-dominion-football-conference-usa-expansion (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/5/17/3026401/old-dominion-football-conference-usa-expansion)
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2012/05/old-dominion-conference-usa-caa/1#.T7UVfMWqYuc (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2012/05/old-dominion-conference-usa-caa/1#.T7UVfMWqYuc)
More bad luck for Georgia State coach & former IUPUI coach, Ron Hunter. He bolts the Mid-Con/Summit after 18 years and then after only 2 years? the CAA turns into the Summit when Old Dominion and VCU leave and it looks like George Mason is looking to leave. The remaining teams in the Colonial are Delaware, Drexel in Philadelphia, Georgia State in Atlanta, Hofstra on Long Island, James Madison in Harrisonburg, VA in the Shenandoah Valley, UNC-Wilmington, Northeastern in Boston, Towson in Baltimore County & William & Mary in Williamsburg, VA in the Tidewater area (also George Mason for now). I guess that's not exactly the Summit but the Summit really isn't the Mid-Con of the Valpo days. Is there any school ready to flee to the Horizon League?
Georgia State had already been confirmed to leave for the Sun Belt, so he is fine :)
Quote from: valpotx on May 17, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
Georgia State had already been confirmed to leave for the Sun Belt, so he is fine :)
Thanks. Obviously I hadn't heard that. It does sound like a good move for the more southern of the soon to be ex-CAA schools.
The solution for dealing with Butler leaving and the future of the Horizon League is very clear - develop other winning basketball programs and have success in the tournament with them. There is no reason why this can't be done. Many of the programs have had periodic success and now they just need to take it to another level. College basketball has never been more competitive and wide open. Teams and conference with good players that are well coached can and do play with the big conference teams.
The conference does need a 10th team - get Oakland if it can be worked out with Detroit or, alternatively, get IUPUI (if they can agree to upgrade all of their sports programs). Northern Kentucky is way too new, Murray State will never happen, and no one is going to leave the "ever solid" MVC. I am not very keen on IPFW or Western Illinois, though both would fit in the "tight geographic" nature of the conference.
Quote from: valpotx on May 17, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
Georgia State had already been confirmed to leave for the Sun Belt, so he is fine :)
Though he was pissed at the time ;)
Quote from: vu84v2 on May 21, 2012, 11:14:06 AMThe conference does need a 10th team - get Oakland if it can be worked out with Detroit or, alternatively, get IUPUI (if they can agree to upgrade all of their sports programs). Northern Kentucky is way too new, Murray State will never happen, and no one is going to leave the "ever solid" MVC. I am not very keen on IPFW or Western Illinois, though both would fit in the "tight geographic" nature of the conference.
Nope. A better answer would be to sever ties with Youngstown State and go back to eight teams.
This would do more to raise the league's profile and RPI than adding IUPUI, IPFW or Western Illinois.
Other than the need for baseball teams, that would be a great idea! If we lost YSU as well, we would have to abandon baseball probably, with only 4 teams.