Poll
Question:
Which Schools should the HL invite....pick 3
Option 1: Oakland
votes: 43
Option 2: IUPUI
votes: 3
Option 3: IPFW
votes: 3
Option 4: Robert Morris
votes: 6
Option 5: Drexel
votes: 3
Option 6: Murray State
votes: 26
Option 7: Belmont
votes: 19
Option 8: Morehead State
votes: 7
Option 9: George Mason
votes: 4
Option 10: UMKC
votes: 1
Option 11: Oral Roberts
votes: 1
Option 12: Western Illinois
votes: 2
Option 13: Eastern Kentucky
votes: 0
Option 14: Chicago State
votes: 0
Option 15: Arkansas - Little Rock
votes: 0
Option 16: Denver
votes: 1
Option 17: St Francis (Pa)
votes: 0
Option 18: Lipscomb
votes: 1
Option 19: SIU - Edwardsville
votes: 1
Option 20: Other
votes: 8
Lots of opinions....lets record them.
Indy, Had the same thought but with a different approach -- responders should probably use the matrix first otherwise it becomes a blue sky exercise that produces a wish list rather than viable targets.
Good poll, Indy. This should be interesting. Hopefully, our friends from other HL schools will jump in on this, as well.
Oh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
My Denver vote was also purely selfish, and I had not considered Denver until this poll.
i couldn't even justify a third pick after oakland and murray state. i'd have thrown some consideration towards peoria, but bradley wasn't even on the list.
Too bad their wasn't a button for "Invite UDM to start a baseball program and stay at 9 until the expansion dust settles". ;D
Murray State may be a good fit, sportswise, but it's location is a negative. The easy travel for the HL teams is unique and I don't think it should be compromised. It will also put an added burden on the athletes.
It's comical that posters will vote for Murray State due to their performances in basketball. But if you look at where Murray, KY truly is the town that you would most likely to fly into to get to Murray, KY is either Paducah, KY(42 miles), Evansville, IN(130 miles) or Nashville, TN(115 miles). If you are already flying into Nashville to get to Murray, KY why not add Belmont in Nashville. Of course there are some of the posters who have already stated that Murray, KY does not fit the footprint of the HL but if you truly look at a map it is more off the beaten path than Belmont in Nashville.
Quote from: bbtds on June 16, 2012, 01:36:54 AM
It's comical that posters will vote for Murray State due to their performances in basketball. But if you look at where Murray, KY truly is the town that you would most likely to fly into to get to Murray, KY is either Paducah, KY(42 miles), Evansville, IN(130 miles) or Nashville, TN(115 miles). If you are already flying into Nashville to get to Murray, KY why not add Belmont in Nashville. Of course there are some of the posters who have already stated that Murray, KY does not fit the footprint of the HL but if you truly look at a map it is more off the beaten path than Belmont in Nashville.
well, considering our teams rarely fly anywhere, that's not the issue. and getting there by bus is relatively easy. take 80 to 57 south all the way into kentucky.
Quote from: crusaderjoe on June 15, 2012, 06:53:25 PM
Too bad their wasn't a button for "Invite UDM to start a baseball program and stay at 9 until the expansion dust settles". ;D
I agree. The HL should be trying to get all schools to participate in as many sports as possible. Only five of nine have baseball? Somewhat sad. :(
Detroit, Cleveland State, and Loyola should have baseball. Green Bay may be difficult with the weather, but if NDSU/SDSU can have baseball, they could too...
Quote from: valpotx on June 18, 2012, 04:31:19 PM
Detroit, Cleveland State, and Loyola should have baseball. Green Bay may be difficult with the weather, but if NDSU/SDSU can have baseball, they could too...
And with Stony Brook and Kent (State) going to the CWS, maybe it now makes sense to have baseball in the northern states!
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
Since none of the teams on the list are likely to make the HL a multi bid league, I'd go with IUPUI for travel reasons, though that's not who I voted for. If the only NCAA bid is going to be the auto bid, might as well make travel easier.
*Pepsi gave up the naming rights to the Coliseum, so I don't know what it will be called in the future (my guess is the Coke Coliseum in all seriousness). That being said, playing in IUPUI's high school gym is a hinderance to their program.
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
The only sport that should have any influence on who's invited is basketball. That's the only thing the league is known for and what they hang their hat on so I hope that's all that is taken into consideration when deciding to invite another team(s).
Baseball, no baseball, bowling, no bowling...it shouldn't factor in the decision on who to invite. Now, if its a complete toss up between two teams and all the other factors are equal, then it might matter.
Quote from: milanmiracle on June 23, 2012, 06:21:52 AM
The only sport that should have any influence on who's invited is basketball. That's the only thing the league is known for and what they hang their hat on so I hope that's all that is taken into consideration when deciding to invite another team(s).
Baseball, no baseball, bowling, no bowling...it shouldn't factor in the decision on who to invite. Now, if its a complete toss up between two teams and all the other factors are equal, then it might matter.
The HL is going to add 3 teams and they want at least 2 of the 3 to have baseball.
Quote from: milanmiracle on June 23, 2012, 06:13:56 AM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
None of the teams on the list are likely to make the HL a multi bid league.
Huh? Murray State, George Mason and Belmont -- combined with Valpo, Detroit and Cleveland State -- wouldn't make the Horizon League a multi-bid league?
Fellas, they're adding more than one team. In fact, they're almost certainly adding three teams. That, and the hangups of Detroit and Loyola with adding Oakland is why expansion is taking so long.
Quote from: vuweathernerd on June 16, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
well, considering our teams rarely fly anywhere, that's not the issue. and getting there by bus is relatively easy. take 80 to 57 south all the way into kentucky.
I dare you to keep going south on I-57 and see what happens. After you cross into Missouri and not into Kentucky you might be surprised that you end up in the cotton fields of the boot heel of Missouri. But it wouldn't be your fault. It would be the New Madrid Fault. It cracks me up. ::)
Quote from: bbtds on June 23, 2012, 11:47:39 AM
Quote from: vuweathernerd on June 16, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
well, considering our teams rarely fly anywhere, that's not the issue. and getting there by bus is relatively easy. take 80 to 57 south all the way into kentucky.
I dare you to keep going south on I-57 and see what happens. After you cross into Missouri and not into Kentucky you might be surprised that you end up in the cotton fields of the boot heel of Missouri. But it wouldn't be your fault. It would be the New Madrid Fault. It cracks me up. ::)
apparently i was thinking of i-24. my memory failed me. but my point still stands. bus transportation would still be easy.
Quote from: dylanrocks on June 23, 2012, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: milanmiracle on June 23, 2012, 06:13:56 AM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
None of the teams on the list are likely to make the HL a multi bid league.
Huh? Murray State, George Mason and Belmont -- combined with Valpo, Detroit and Cleveland State -- wouldn't make the Horizon League a multi-bid league?
Fellas, they're adding more than one team. In fact, they're almost certainly adding three teams. That, and the hangups of Detroit and Loyola with adding Oakland is why expansion is taking so long.
If they're adding three teams, maybe it becomes a multi bid league, but it's certainly no lock. If Valpo wins the regular season as expected, but not the HL tournament they're likely out (at least from the schedule I've seen). You're really hoping that the scheduling out of conference is good enough to warrant an invitation from the NCAA from some of these other schools. I hope we can find out.
Quote from: milanmiracle on June 23, 2012, 11:09:52 PM
If they're adding three teams, maybe it becomes a multi bid league, but it's certainly no lock. If Valpo wins the regular season as expected, but not the HL tournament they're likely out (at least from the schedule I've seen). You're really hoping that the scheduling out of conference is good enough to warrant an invitation from the NCAA from some of these other schools. I hope we can find out.
Scheduling will become easier for everyone in the HL if we go to 12 teams. At 10 teams, we have played a 18 game conference schedule. At 12 teams, we will have a 22 game conference schedule. With 4 less OOC games to schedule, each HL team should be able to be more selective in their scheduling.
Quote from: dylanrocks on June 23, 2012, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: milanmiracle on June 23, 2012, 06:13:56 AM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 15, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: valpotx on June 15, 2012, 12:06:05 PMOh come on, who voted for IUPUI and IPFW? I know this is anonymous, but....COME ONNNNN lol
I will confess to an IUPUI vote. Living in Indy it is purely selfish move but I like the idea of having all VU teams come this way...RPI be damned. Of course I would require conference basketball home games at Bankers Life or the Pepsi Coliseum. I would also make them bring back baseball.
None of the teams on the list are likely to make the HL a multi bid league.
Huh? Murray State, George Mason and Belmont -- combined with Valpo, Detroit and Cleveland State -- wouldn't make the Horizon League a multi-bid league?
Fellas, they're adding more than one team. In fact, they're almost certainly adding three teams. That, and the hangups of Detroit and Loyola with adding Oakland is why expansion is taking so long.
Dylan - Other than your comment, I haven't read so much as a peep anywhere about Detroit causing trouble for Oakland (this time around). This is pretty troublesome, if true. To think that Loyola might also be involved is downright nauseating. How reliable is your source for this and what more do you know?
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 23, 2012, 11:22:42 PMScheduling will become easier for everyone in the HL if we go to 12 teams. At 10 teams, we have played a 18 game conference schedule. At 12 teams, we will have a 22 game conference schedule. With 4 less OOC games to schedule, each HL team should be able to be more selective in their scheduling.
No conference in their right minds would have a 22 game conference schedule.
It is complete speculation on my part, but geographically, what about Saint Louis University joining the HL? They were in the league for 10 years or so in the 80s, and have only been in the A10 since 2005. Do they really like traveling to the eastern time zone for every single away game? Obviously, they would be a great addition to the HL, have some natural rivalries with Loyola and Detroit and wouldn't have to deal with the eastward expansion of the A-10.
Quote from: valpo95 on June 25, 2012, 03:01:08 PM
It is complete speculation on my part, but geographically, what about Saint Louis University joining the HL? They were in the league for 10 years or so in the 80s, and have only been in the A10 since 2005. Do they really like traveling to the eastern time zone for every single away game? Obviously, they would be a great addition to the HL, have some natural rivalries with Loyola and Detroit and wouldn't have to deal with the eastward expansion of the A-10.
If they ever left the A-10 it would be for the MVC which is a much higher rated conference than the HL and is a better geographic fit than the A-10 or the HL. They also already have better natural rivals in the A-10 (Butler, Xavier, and Dayton) than Loyola and Detroit could offer.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 25, 2012, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: valpo95 on June 25, 2012, 03:01:08 PM
It is complete speculation on my part, but geographically, what about Saint Louis University joining the HL? They were in the league for 10 years or so in the 80s, and have only been in the A10 since 2005. Do they really like traveling to the eastern time zone for every single away game? Obviously, they would be a great addition to the HL, have some natural rivalries with Loyola and Detroit and wouldn't have to deal with the eastward expansion of the A-10.
If they ever left the A-10 it would be for the MVC which is a much higher rated conference than the HL and is a better geographic fit than the A-10 or the HL. They also already have better natural rivals in the A-10 (Butler, Xavier, and Dayton) than Loyola and Detroit could offer.
That is not accurate. The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank. The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th. Better sure, much higher, no. These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth. The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.
Robert Morris won't ride the conference carousel; will remain in NEC
Posted: Monday, June 25, 2012 9:03 pm
By Eric Hall Times Sports Staff
At their frequent meetings, Robert Morris athletic director Craig Coleman and his fellow athletics officials from schools in the Northeast Conference allow plenty of time for discussion of conference realignment rumors. They want to be abreast of what schools are going where, and what conference may come looking for NEC schools to claim.
But they won't be spending their time on Robert Morris rumors for the moment.
"We're not looking to go anywhere at this point," Coleman said Monday. "We're happy in the Northeast Conference. We think it's a good league for us."
In recent months, schools from the Horizon League (Butler), Colonial Athletic Association (Virginia Commonwealth, Georgia State and Old Dominion) and America East (Boston University) have changed leagues. Robert Morris has been at least mentioned as replacement candidates in each case, with the Horizon League move receiving the most attention.
"We've seen rumors about the Horizon League looking our way," Coleman said, "but we've had zero conversations with the Horizon League."
While RMU is staying, Quinnipiac and Bryant -- and maybe other NEC schools -- are targets of America East, which was surprised by Boston U's move to the Patriot League.
"We've seen more than just (Quinnipiac and Bryant) mentioned; there are lots of rumors as to what will happen with America East. They could scarf up a school or two from our league. They have been rumored to merge with another conference.
"I don't think anybody anticipated that Boston University was going to the Patriot League. We spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about rumors ... and how it's going to trickle down to us, but this was not one that anyone saw coming."
I'll translate the article for y'all:
Robert Morris AD: I'm like totally happy where I am, without a prom date. Some girls were suggesting that Harry Son-League was going to ask me to go to his Dance, but he hasn't even called me yet. I am so happy where I am, but if he called me, I'm also like, so available. Did I mention how happy I am where I am? Yeah! And also, CALL ME.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on June 26, 2012, 09:24:56 AM
I'll translate the article for y'all:
Robert Morris AD: I'm like totally happy where I am, without a prom date. Some girls were suggesting that Harry Son-League was going to ask me to go to his Dance, but he hasn't even called me yet. I am so happy where I am, but if he called me, I'm also like, so available. Did I mention how happy I am where I am? Yeah! And also, CALL ME.
Bingo!
St. Louis would only go to the MVC. This is not only because it is well regarded, but they are right in the middle of a pretty compact geographical conference and the conference tourney has been in St. Louis for a long time. St. Louis, in my opinion, is also like someone who dates someone but is always looking for a better partner. Whether the MVC is better than the Horizon is secondary - St. Louis would perceive the MVC as better, partly because many other people would.
If the conference wants to put feelers out to programs like Murray State - great...but my opinion is that they should just get with Oakland and get this deal done. My opinion is that Oakland is a far more solid program than Robert Morris or any other Summit League teams.
Quote from: vu72 on June 25, 2012, 10:15:13 PM
That is not accurate. The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank. The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th. Better sure, much higher, no. These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth. The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.
When anyone is comparing conferences, they are using RPI. The Sagarin rankings are fun for some fans to use, but they are meaningless when it comes to the NCAA. The MVC is consistently a 5-10 ranked conference, whereas the HL is typically a 10-15 ranked conference.
Quote from: HorizonLeagueFan on June 26, 2012, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: vu72 on June 25, 2012, 10:15:13 PM
That is not accurate. The last three years the Horizon has finished ranked 12th in the Sagarins versus the Valley's 9th rank. The year before that the Valley finished 10th to the Horizon's 11th and the year before they were 8th to our 11th. Better sure, much higher, no. These were all years including Butler's great runs as well as last year when they finished fourth. The Horizon has consistently been near the top 10 or 11 or 12, top third for sure.
When anyone is comparing conferences, they are using RPI. The Sagarin rankings are fun for some fans to use, but they are meaningless when it comes to the NCAA. The MVC is consistently a 5-10 ranked conference, whereas the HL is typically a 10-15 ranked conference.
Avg. conf RPI since 98-99 season:
MVC 9.6
HL 13.7
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/compare?c2=missouri-valley&c1=horizon (http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/compare?c2=missouri-valley&c1=horizon)
In a statistical ranking of 30+ conferences over 14 years, a difference of 4 places is not statistically significant. It is also a significant stretch to say that the MVC at 9.6 is consistently a "5-10 ranked conference".
Some additional food for thought..
HL Attendance
Milwaukee 4,154
Wright State 3,903
Valparaiso 3,383
Cleveland State 3,260
Green Bay 3,064
Ill.-Chicago 2,934
Youngstown State 2,485
Loyola 2,277
Detroit 2,272
Potentials
Bradley 7,640
Murray State 6,144
Denver 5,460
George Mason 5,161
Evansville 5,135
Oral Roberts 4,494
Oakland 3,346
South Dakota St 3,320
UALR 3,222
North Dakota St 3,156
Lipscomb 2,343
Morehead State 2,241
Drexel 2,185
Belmont 2,012
Eastern Kentucky 1,911
South Dakota 1,701
IPFW 1,657
SIU Edwardsville 1,625
Robert Morris 1,441
UMKC 1,308
Western Illinois 1,182
IUPUI 1,133
Saint Francis (PA) 906
Neb. Omaha 897
Chicago State 429
This is good stuff, Indy--I already referenced it in the discussion of UWM's new dig (small enough to be in the singular, get it?).
I'm wondering your source, though--is it just last year? Or is it over a few? That I think would be helpful too, if it's not already. On the basis of this it would seem anyone who can't get 2K is not really "in our league", so to speak. And wow--Bradley! I don't care if Hersey Hawkins just joined AARP...I say bring them on.
IndyValpo, I think Chicago State can hold a lot more than 400 fans, or was this just an average or general look at what the schools listed bring in compared to what they can hold to capacity? The newish arena they play in looks like it can hold a couple thousand people.
From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab)
Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team? I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away. Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL. I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!
According to Indy's numbers, Belmont's avg. of 2012 is below every team in the HL. I think they just dropped a few rungs on the glamour ladder.
Quote from: valpotx on June 27, 2012, 10:32:39 AM
Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team? I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away. Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL. I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!
I would expect fans to come out this year - maybe not at the 4500 average, but more than 3400. I'm going to guess 3900 per game.
As we all know, the attendance numbers are mostly a guess, not scientific or fact based. Not sure why that is but it is what it is. As for Milwaukee if they really averaged 4154 and their gym seats 3400 then it will be cheek to cheek every game. Won't happen. I think unless it is a big draw game (Butler) then people don't want to be all that packed in. Their numbers are also skewed by having 10,143 at their hosting of Wisconsin. Their Butler game only drew 6400 and we drew 5800. At the same time their hosting of IUPUI drew 3022 and the UIC game had 3330. Without the Wisconsin and Butler games next year, their average will be more in line.
If their numbers are at all accurate then games like the Valpo game will be sold out very early.
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 27, 2012, 09:57:39 AM
From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab)
Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game? What is up with that. What does the Joyce hold these days? 11500? I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.
Good catch on the Wisconsin game skewing numbers.
That's why I think (if i had more time) an average of 3 or 5 years would tell more of a tale than whether or not they had a good home slate one year.
Anybody got spare time? ;)
Quote from: covufan on June 27, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 27, 2012, 09:57:39 AM
From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab)
Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game? What is up with that. What does the Joyce hold these days? 11500? I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.
Yeah, it holds 11,418. Their non-conference home schedule (think how some Valpo fans complain about OUR non-conference home schedule :o ) included exhibitions against St.Xavier and Stonehill College ???, and regular season games against Mississippi Valley State, Detroit ;D, Delaware St., Sam Houston St., Bryant, Maine, and Sacred Heart. Those 9 game must have really gotten the Irish faithful excited! The Detroit game for example, drew about 6700 or pretty close to half full.
Quote from: valpotx on June 27, 2012, 10:32:39 AM
Wow, we only had 3,383 for a HL championship team? I don't care about the lack of quality competition at home, fans have definitely gone away. Kind of sad that we could average around 4,500 in the Mid-Con for each of my years in school, but only that much with a quality team in the HL. I fully understand that it was because I was in school the first few years after the Sweet 16 run, but come on NW Indiana, get out to support another quality run!!
It's really very simple...NCAA tournament or bust. Unless you make the dance you aren't relevant to the average fan and interest is minimal.
Quote from: vu72 on June 27, 2012, 03:50:46 PM
Quote from: covufan on June 27, 2012, 02:44:59 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on June 27, 2012, 09:57:39 AM
From the NCAA....Average attendance...2012 only
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab/11-12+BB+Attendance.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e56d5f804b32962ba65bf7d0ae33e5ab)
Notre Dame only averaged 8k per game? What is up with that. What does the Joyce hold these days? 11500? I remember going to games there when 8000 would have been empty.
Yeah, it holds 11,418. Their non-conference home schedule (think how some Valpo fans complain about OUR non-conference home schedule :o ) included exhibitions against St.Xavier and Stonehill College ???, and regular season games against Mississippi Valley State, Detroit ;D, Delaware St., Sam Houston St., Bryant, Maine, and Sacred Heart. Those 9 game must have really gotten the Irish faithful excited! The Detroit game for example, drew about 6700 or pretty close to half full.
Yes, that non conference schedule is not very good, but the Big East is much more marketable than the Horizon League. The likes of Georgetown, Syracuse and UConn are just a slightly bigger draw than Cleveland State, Detroit and Butler.
I was impressed by Bradley's attendance. Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 27, 2012, 10:01:44 PM
I was impressed by Bradley's attendance. Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.
We played at Bradley in the Bracketbusters one year. Their fans are big time. We made it to Peoria three hours before game time, and it was the third bar we went into that had enough space for us to sit down. Every other place was packed to the brim. And the one we went into opened up their second floor for us, which quickly packed in behind us.
Bradley is THE SHOW in Peoria, and it's easy to see why.
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on July 09, 2012, 05:55:17 PM
Quote from: crusadermoe on June 27, 2012, 10:01:44 PM
I was impressed by Bradley's attendance. Avg. of 6,000+ is higher than Butler if correct.
We played at Bradley in the Bracketbusters one year. Their fans are big time. We made it to Peoria three hours before game time, and it was the third bar we went into that had enough space for us to sit down. Every other place was packed to the brim. And the one we went into opened up their second floor for us, which quickly packed in behind us.
Bradley is THE SHOW in Peoria, and it's easy to see why.
You probably got there as the shift at the Caterpillar factories were letting out. There are 10 fairly large Caterpillar buildings in the Greater Peoria area.
Sports is extremely important in Peoria. Which is similar to the way sports is important in Indianapolis. Western Illinois doesn't get much attention and Illinois State in Normal, 40 miles away, gets some. Other than a few minor league teams there isn't much in Peoria except Bradley sports.
Which is why Valpo should be packing the ARC, right?
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on July 10, 2012, 04:09:29 PMWhich is why Valpo should be packing the ARC, right?
Your comparing a town of 30,000, 50 miles from Chicago, with cities the size of 115,000 and 830,000. Both of the cities are oriented to be the center of their regions without much outside draws. Valpo does not compare to that. Valpo people go to Lake County, Chicago and South Bend to attend sporting events because they are oriented that way. Also I don't consider Valpo a sports town. Actually it's not that big of a deal for Valpo people to go to Milwaukee for a sporting event.
Valpo and the other surrounding small town are more into the local high school sports. To me this is he biggest thing keeping he community away. Keep winning, get more students in the seats and the community attendance will grow. I thought this got better as last year wore on.
Quote from: sectionee on July 10, 2012, 08:00:30 PM
Valpo and the other surrounding small town are more into the local high school sports. To me this is he biggest thing keeping he community away. Keep winning, get more students in the seats and the community attendance will grow. I thought this got better as last year wore on.
Then that high school sports community must be brought into the fold. Get them fired up about VU!
Quote from: blackpantheruwm on July 12, 2012, 05:56:28 PM
Quote from: sectionee on July 10, 2012, 08:00:30 PM
Then that high school sports community must be brought into the fold. Get them fired up about VU!
Back when I was involved in high school sports, the Duneland schools are anti-Valpo, even if it's not the high school itself. I know most of the Duneland schools (at least in the sports I competed in or was involved with) activly rooted against Valpo even when they weren't in head to head competition in Valpo high school.
We we won! and Valpo lost!
I suspect that opinion still exists in general. Yes, that goes away over time, but as a sports community it takes time to overcome that feeling
Milan, I'm not quite following what you wrote. Duneland high schools didn't like VU or didn't like Valpo HS? And if it was the university, why would that be? I'd be interested in more information on the anti-Valpo perspective you write about. [Please pardon my naiveté, but (1) I'm not from around there and (2) I was there only for my 4 years and left -- a long, long time ago.]
I think what he is saying refers to the high school and is based in feeling Valpo superior status.
bbtds - Don't you think your first obligation is to the Crusader brotherhood when you have interesting news to share?
Quote from: wh on August 18, 2012, 08:16:07 PM
bbtds - Don't you think your first obligation is to the Crusader brotherhood when you have interesting news to share?
Exactly what are you refering to?
Quote from: bbtds on August 18, 2012, 10:11:00 PM
Quote from: wh on August 18, 2012, 08:16:07 PM
bbtds - Don't you think your first obligation is to the Crusader brotherhood when you have interesting news to share?
Exactly what are you refering to?
CSU board, 8/18, bbtds:
As someone who has a contact high up in the Valpo administration I can't reveal exactly what deal has been made for 2013-2014. But I believe you will be extremely excited about which schools will be joining the Horizon League. The goal was to get 3 schools with at least 2 of them with baseball. The reason it won't be announced until the end of the basketball season, probably around HL tournament time, is to distance the announcement from Butler's leaving so the 2 events won't be as linked as it appears. But I think you will find that all 3 of the schools together make up for Butler leaving.Great teaser - I was just surprised to see it on the CSU board and not ours...
busted. wow! nice work!
Belmont, Murray State and Oakland?
Let's add these three and continue to explore further expansion.
Quote from: dylanrocks on August 21, 2012, 10:51:03 AM
Belmont, Murray State and Oakland?
Let's add these three and continue to explore further expansion.
I think if we could add these three then we all would be excited. It adds Nashville to the mix and three very solid rpi teams.
Those are logical suggestions. We would not be on the OVC leaders' Christmas card list,....but C'est la vie.
Oakland is the easiest one to pick... but will UDM let them come in? I'd like IPFW because it's an easy drive from Valpo... and we can really yell at them if they bring those darn noise makers with their band! and my third choice is a toss up between Evansville or Indiana State ... I don't know if they'd be interested in moving from the Valley...but hey, I'm an ICC traditionalist!
Guys -- this is sounding like a rehash of the following that have already run their course earlier or in the case of Poll #2 seem to be a better posting location:
# HL SuperConference => started June 21
# Poll #2 - Predict 3 new additions => started August 18
# .......and the beginning of this string => started way back in June.
We should either consolidate all this into one string or stop beating multiple dead horses. We have already discussed the merits and possibilities of Murray State and Belmont very thoroughly on a number of levels along with others. Posters need to first look back over previous discussions and they'll get a great understanding of the ground that has been previously covered.
Just my :twocents: .
According to sources, IPFW and Evansville are among a group of teams -- North Dakota State, IUPUI -- in the hold for further expansion.
The Purple Aces will join the fray if the Missouri Valley begins fragmenting, starting with Creighton's departure for the powerful A-10.
As documented elsewhere, I'm elated with the league's apparent southward expansion.
This was the best way to stabilize the conference and fortify it against potential future raids.
IPFW and IUPUI are not under consideration. Period. All 9 HL schools have told LeCrone that they will not be considered.
Quote from: dylanrocks on August 22, 2012, 06:43:31 PM
According to sources, IPFW and Evansville are among a group of teams -- North Dakota State, IUPUI -- in the hold for further expansion.
The Purple Aces will join the fray if the Missouri Valley begins fragmenting, starting with Creighton's departure for the powerful A-10.
As documented elsewhere, I'm elated with the league's apparent southward expansion.
This was the best way to stabilize the conference and fortify it against potential future raids.
Wow--interesting group. To me, New Mexico State would have sounded more plausible than any of these schools since it might have nowhere to place its non-football sports once the WAC dies. At least Idaho has the Big Sky as a fallback. I guess this begs the question—will Idaho take NDSU's spot at the Big Sky table? Is that what is causing the source speculation?
If Creighton moves to the A-10, schools will probably be leaving other conferences to join the MVC, and not the other way around, IMO.
What is fun about all of this expansion talk is that you might be 100% correct since everything is so speculative and anything I guess is possible--although it has been mentioned that the IU schools are not in consideration. This grouping just seems too odd to have any legs.
I truly hope that we are not considering any of the Dakota schools. That adds travel when it is not needed, and they would just be using the HL for a few year stop gap until they move their program to FBS (Mountain West or something)
Yeah the Dakotas thing has to be a joke. That goes back to the Mid-Con level of thinking.
Quote from: crusadermoe on August 23, 2012, 04:28:40 PM
Yeah the Dakotas thing has to be a joke. That goes back to the Mid-Con level of thinking.
as much as i'd love to see that now, while i'm up here in the middle of nowhere, it is overall an absurd thought. moe, you and tx have hit it square on. travel would become ridiculous. especially with how difficult winter travel can be up here.
The Patriot League has added another school, this time Loyola (Maryland) from the MAAC. The MAAC now has 9 teams. Could they try to add Robert Morris as #10?
Quote from: IndyValpo on September 03, 2012, 04:17:26 PM
The Patriot League has added another school, this time Loyola (Maryland) from the MAAC. The MAAC now has 9 teams. Could they try to add Robert Morris as #10?
better the patriot league than the horizon
Murray State and Bemont update
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a5 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a5)
There was a rumor I heard that Evansville and Murray State are looking to pair up in the same conference and that they are seriously weighing their options. Could their destination be the Horizon League? Who knows? Again this is only a rumor.
Take this for what it is: Latest rumor speculation on Twitter and Facebook suggests the three likely teams to be added to the HL are Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville. I could see Oakland and Evansville; however, though I like these three and would want to add Belmont, I wonder why Belmont would move to the Horizon after just joining the Ohio Valley:
"PantherU: Not able to confirm this 100%, but it looks like Belmont, Oakland and Evansville will be joining the Horizon League. I'm not hearing any other schools brought up by my contacts, and too many contacts are using those three together. Either everyone I talk to is conferring with each other, or where there's smoke there's fire. I'm thinking the latter. . . . Seriously, this is speculation based on discussions with people. Not reporting anything. I have the feeling Its those 3 based on convos."
In addition, the following contains a non-denial denial by Evansville's Athletic Director, John Stanley:
"The University of Evansville is a member of the Missouri Valley Conference, and we haven't had any discussions about changing conferences." Stanley added: "We understand that the conference world is changing rapidly and has over the last couple years, so we always have to be aware of the circumstances surrounding us, and we'll make decisions based on events as they occur. We enjoy the Missouri Valley Conference, but we need to be cognizant of the world surround us as it comes to athletic conferences."
http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217 (http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=217)
It seems to me that Belmont and Oakland are going to happen.
As for Evansville, its one-year-old Ford Center would be the crown jewel of the league. But I'm not sure that Evansville's addition would help accomplish the commissioner's stated objective of perennial multi-bid status.
I have no desire to divide a single NCAA Tournament payout into even more shares.
I think Evansville would be a very good addition. It would also say something about the Horizon, in that we were able to attractive a team from the supposedly superior Valley.
From a Valpo prospective only, it would bring back an old rival from the ICC days. We started playing them in 1931-32 and have played 82 times but not since 97-98.
Don't quite understand why they haven't been better of late as back in the day they were the studs in the conference and have won national championships. Think Jerry Sloan.
As a private, highly regarded academic school, it would also be a good addition and could become Valpo's natural rival again.
I came across this article from 2010 about the amazing growth Belmont has experienced in enrollment and revenues. They are a university definitely on the rise.
Belmont ready to unveil visionary plan
Sunday, March 7, 2010 at 10:45pm
By William Williams
In 2000, Belmont University enrolled a modest 2,970 students, had assets of about $120 million, was affiliated with the Tennessee Baptist Convention and fielded a men's basketball team virtually unknown beyond Nashville.
Ten years later, and guided by an extensive planning document called Vision 2010, Belmont has become a vastly different place. Enrollment has risen to roughly 5,420, an 82 percent jump. The university's assets stand at about $350 million, with its operating budget having grown from about $48 million to $130 million.
During the decade, Belmont University severed its ties from the conservative TBC, hosted a presidential campaign debate and saw its men's hoops team almost beat Duke in the 2008 NCAA Tournament. On-campus construction hummed. Professors from across the nation came on board. Retention and graduation numbers improved. And the October 2009 proposal of a law school drew heavy local ink.
Belmont President Bob Fisher, who began his tenure in April 2000, said Vision 2010 "exceeded our dreams" — such that the university is ready to leap another five years ahead.
Vision 2015 — an internal planning document The City Paper has reviewed — could forever close the chapter on "Belmont pre-2000," which offered a close-knit, liberal arts teaching environment and an unassuming persona.
The recent circulation of the proposal — and various campus-wide group discussions regarding it — suggests the university's leadership is prepared to aggressively catapult Belmont onto the field of regional academic powerhouses. Meetings of the Faculty Senate (members of which could not be reached for comment) are now taking place weekly as opposed to monthly, and Vision 2015 is a key reason.
Building enrollment and endowment
University leaders are proposing many goals, but the two most ambitious are increasing enrollment to 7,000 and taking the endowment, currently at about $65 million, to $125 million. At this rate, Belmont would begin to challenge Vanderbilt (approximately 12,000 students) and Tennessee State University (about 10,500 students) among Davidson County-based universities. The Belmont endowment is already greater than that of TSU (about $28 million), yet it trails the $78 million endowment of Lipscomb University (enrollment of about 3,400).
Fisher declined to comment directly about Vision 2015, citing its not-yet finalized status and his desire to solicit campus-wide feedback before he addresses it with the general public. However, Fisher acknowledged he and the Board of Trustees are pointing to Vision 2010 as a template for any future growth.
"Whatever the next plan ends up being, it is going to be ambitious," Fisher said. "We've learned to love the successes we've had, so we'll be very ambitious in our next steps."
Metro Councilwoman Kristine LaLonde, whose District 18 includes the university, said the Belmont University Neighborhood Advisory Group, which includes neighbors and school representatives, is "meeting actively" to address solutions to any problems that might occur with future expansion.
"Obviously, more students and staff at Belmont will have an impact on the neighborhood," said LaLonde, who works full time at Belmont as coordinator of Project LEAD, the university's honors leadership studies program.
"My role in this [proposed enrollment] expansion is to act as a vigorous advocate for the neighborhood to minimize any negative ramifications of Belmont's growth," she said, "including possible effects on parking and traffic."
A council-approved conservation zoning overlay in part will shape any future development outside the school's current footprint.
The money will roll right in
Stroll through the Belmont campus and you'll notice the boom. Within a few years, BU has completed construction of various new buildings, including the Curb Event Center and the Gordon E. Inman Center. Currently under construction are buildings to house a pharmacy program and student residences.
Development drives interest, which often translates into added enrollment and recognition. For example, U.S. News & World Report in 2009 ranked Belmont No. 7 of "master's degree-level universities" in the South.
According to statistics Belmont officials provided to The City Paper, the university saw revenues generated by tuition and fees increase from about $35 million to roughly $110 million during the last decade. But with that growth came challenges, as university statistics also show that the number of full-time faculty members barely increased by half of the growing student population.
Fisher said that must be kept in context, with the school's student-teacher ratio remaining manageable.
"We became much more efficient in the way we scheduled classes and assigned instructors [including adjuncts]," he said.
Belmont touts its low student-teacher ratio of 12 to 1, but many Belmont classes have 20 or more students, according to a review of the website classfinder.belmont.edu.
Eric Deems, vice president of the university's Student Government Association, said Fisher has been receptive to student feedback on future plans yet hopes the administration will move cautiously.
"Belmont is a wonderful place with a unique sense of community on its campus," Deems said. "I would hate for Belmont to lose this distinct, competitive edge over similar schools because of it getting too big. My hope is that, as Belmont moves forward with growth, it constantly measures the effects on campus life from its growth.
Vision 2015 is not limited to enrollment and monetary issues. For example, the document mentions issues related to improving diversity and to a branding of sorts, with the phrasing "Nashville's university" related to service learning.
Maggie Monteverde, assistant provost for international education, said she is encouraged to see study abroad and global awareness programs as part of the proposal.
"They go hand in hand and are a major focus of the proposed Vision 2015," she said.
Yet to be resolved, however, is how the Christian-affiliated university will handle Vision 2015's reference to "a culture of inclusion," if that is to include faith diversity.
Nice digging WH - enjoyed reading it. Their move to the OVC is right in line with what they're doing in other areas. The theme I got out of this article is that they adopted an "if you build it, they will come" attitude. That aggressive approach paid off. They didn't over-do the construction but were aggressive about it. I liked the thought that "Development drives interest, which often translates into added enrollment and recognition."
I used your post as a lead-in for a continuation post on the Strategic Plan.
Interesting post by bigdwsu on the WSU board re. programs the HL is rumored to be considering:
I wouldn't say that. I think Jimmy just jumped the gun a little bit and didn't really present it the best way. He should have put together a well thought out blog story or just a post on one of the message boards instead of announcing it on twitter and explained that those are the 3 names he is hearing the most. The way it came across on twitter, people were thinking he was announcing that it is some sort of done deal and it is no where close to a done deal. I keep hearing 5 names: Oakland, Belmont, Evansville, Murray St, and Robert Morris. Here are the RUMORS I hear about each school. (and I want to emphasize all of this is based on rumors).
Oakland: Oakland wants in. They made it known in the media months ago. The HL wants them in. Well I should say 7 of 9 HL schools want them in or 6 of 9 do. Detroit and Loyola have been holding this up and I hear Valpo might/might not be part of that. Detroit doesn't want them in and Loyola has been backing them up based on old loyalties between the 2 schools. I hear that Oakland will be invited. I hear the rest of the HL has compromised with Detroit and Loyola and agreed to go after 2 private schools if they agree to let Oakland in. I think Valpo is fine with Oakland being part of the HL, but I hear they have been part of that discussion because they also want the HL to go after some private schools (specifically Evansville). Oakland is important to most HL schools. We want a good basketball program first and foremost. They also have a baseball team which is a priority and they give the HL another presence in Michigan which we wanted. HL teams like to recruit Michigan but have not had the success there they would like. Having 2 local schools should help with Michigan recruiting. Oakland gives Detroit a natural travel partner and a built in rival. They also give Valpo a good rival from their Summit days.
Belmont: Belmont offers everything the HL wants except for their location. They have a really good basketball program, baseball team, facilities, fan base, and they spend money on sports. They are one of the few good mid-majors out there without football, so we never have to worry about them jumping conferences based on a football move. They also give us a presence in a new state which opens up a new area for recruiting. From Belmont's side, they have legit interest. They are just entering their first year in the OVC, but the OVC is a much lower rated conference than the HL. The OVC is a 20-25 ranked conference that gets bad NCAA seeds and never gets at large bids. The HL is a 10-15 ranked conference that can get decent seeds and has been able to get at large bids. Travel is an issue, but if the HL divides into 2 six team divisions that travel can be managed. Nashville is also an easy city to travel to by major highways and airfare there is cheap. If we add Evansville, they are only a 2.5 hr drive away which just gave them a travel partner in the HL.
Evansville: Evansville is the team we have to go after to appease Detroit, Loyola and Valpo. They were once in the HL and were a major player in the conference. They moved to the MVC 18 years ago when the HL went through our last major shakeup. I don't think they wanted to leave then. I think they left out of fear that the conference was going under and they didn't want to be left in the dark. They have been in the MVC for 18 years and have struggled in that conference. Their budget is under 10 million a year which is well below most MVC schools. That is a decent budget for the HL though. They have also struggled to develop any rivalries in the MVC. They still have 2 rivals in Loyola and Detroit from their MCC days. They also have an old rivalry with Valpo. They could be ready to come back to the HL because of fear that the MVC is ready for a major shake up. Creighton is being courted by the A-10 and several of their football schools have been looking at their football options. They could very well be ready to move on before they are left in the dark in that conference. From a HL standpoint, they haven't had the kind of success we have been looking for, but they do have some good selling points. They have good potential to improve when they get into the HL. They just built great facilities for basketball. They have a good budget for a HL team. They give us a second presence in the state of Indiana which is huge for the HL because every HL team likes to recruit in Indiana.
Murray St: Murray St is the team most HL fans want and honestly I think most HL schools would prefer them too but the HL will go after Evansville first. If Evansville turns us down I think Murray State would be next on the list. The upside of Murray State is that they have a great basketball team with a good name brand to sell because of their success. They have a baseball team, good facilities, and spend money on their athletics. The downside to them is their location, they have football, and they are not private. Even though geographically they are closer than Belmont, there is no easy way to get there by flight or by driving. You have to worry about them finding a home for their football team and worry about them eventually leaving the HL for a football conference down the line. And they are not private. I don't know if Loyola, Detroit, and Valpo will agree to them.
Robert Morris: If Robert Morris had a baseball team I think they would be number 2 on our wish list. They are in a good location. They are private. They have a good basketball team. If Evansville turns us down, I wouldn't be surprised to see them invited before Murray State just because they are a private school and make good geographic sense being so close to YSU.
These are the rumors I have been hearing from friends around the HL. Take them for what they are worth.
Someone please refresh our collective memories on when an announcement on this important issue is due? Is it after the HL 2013 BB tourney?
I'd love to see E'ville, Oakland, and Belmont. I think Murray State is committed to OVC because they are top dog in MBB and for FB. The FB piece for Belmont might be the turner in favor of yet another move to the HL.
i dunno that the OVC is as poorly regarded as BigDWSU seems to think:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html)
Last year they were 15 and we 16 (RealTimeRPI)...
It took a 31-2 season from Murray State to get them to that level. Everyone else in their conference is pretty mediocre.
I would love to see Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville as well. It adds 2 private schools, 3 baseball teams, all are fairly easy to get to, and will make us a better conference in all sports. Evansville would do much better in the HL than MVC, and if they ever add football again, could just add non-scholarship to be in the Pioneer again. I believe they don't want to have scholarship football in the future, but have talked about the PL as an option if they go that route again. The MVC is primed for some conference realignment, whereas the HL should remain fairly unscathed with Butler now gone. I could see Detroit/Loyola/Valpo getting some bites from other conferences wanting private schools. With all of our sports, if things do shake up in the next few years, I could see us being a hot commodity if basketball keeps doing what they have been doing the last few years.
Quote from: valpotx on October 01, 2012, 01:16:53 PM
It took a 31-2 season from Murray State to get them to that level. Everyone else in their conference is pretty mediocre.
I would love to see Oakland, Belmont, and Evansville as well. It adds 2 private schools, 3 baseball teams, all are fairly easy to get to, and will make us a better conference in all sports. Evansville would do much better in the HL than MVC, and if they ever add football again, could just add non-scholarship to be in the Pioneer again. I believe they don't want to have scholarship football in the future, but have talked about the PL as an option if they go that route again. The MVC is primed for some conference realignment, whereas the HL should remain fairly unscathed with Butler now gone. I could see Detroit/Loyola/Valpo getting some bites from other conferences wanting private schools. With all of our sports, if things do shake up in the next few years, I could see us being a hot commodity if basketball keeps doing what they have been doing the last few years.
Uh oh, better watch what you say. You are dangerously coming close to touting the "public vs. private" distinction that irritates BigD to no end and also makes some of the fans at UWM think that we are being elitist. ;D
Seriously, if what BigD says above is true, you guys are missing one of the most important aspects of what he has written concerning VU. And that is this--
if in fact VU has formed an alliance with Loyola and Detroit as it relates to conference expansion, this is hugely significant because this position will have indicated a paradigm shift in thinking by the University. IMO, this will be the first time in its D-I athletic history that VU has valued the "public vs. private" distinction as it relates to conference affiliation. I've often maintained that this distinction has not been terribly relevant to VU given its athletic history at the D-I level, especially given the fact that VU has been conference members with only two private schools since 1982 before our move to the HL. Perhaps this thinking has changed.
I think a UE, BU and OU move in tandem would appease everyone in the HL, regardless of this distinction.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on October 01, 2012, 12:39:20 PM
i dunno that the OVC is as poorly regarded as BigDWSU seems to think:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html)
Last year they were 15 and we 16 (RealTimeRPI)...
Last year the OVC was the 21st rated conference.
http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html (http://www.realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html)
Quote from: crusaderjoe on October 01, 2012, 03:19:11 PM
Seriously, if what BigD says above is true, you guys are missing one of the most important aspects of what he has written concerning VU. And that is this--if in fact VU has formed an alliance with Loyola and Detroit as it relates to conference expansion, this is hugely significant because this position will have indicated a paradigm shift in thinking by the Univerity.
You guys are reading something into my post that just wasn't there. Detroit and Loyola are definitely worried about the whole public vs private school thing. I don't think Valpo is worried about how many public or private schools are in the HL. I believe Valpo has been part of the discussion with Loyola and Detroit because you guys want Evansville in the HL. It is my understanding that Valpo wants Evansville more for their location and rivalry potential than the fact that they are private. Getting into Detroit/Loyola's private school campaign was just an ends to a means to get Evansville.
And for the record, the whole public vs private thing doesn't really irritate me at all. I would like the HL to add 3 great schools. I don't care if they are all private as long as they are the best 3 teams we can get. Personally I think the order we should go after schools should be:
1.Murray State
2. Belmont
3. Oakland
4. Robert Morris
5. Evansville
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on October 01, 2012, 12:39:20 PM
i dunno that the OVC is as poorly regarded as BigDWSU seems to think:
Last year they were 15 and we 16 (RealTimeRPI)...
You are getting the Summit League confused with the OVC. The OVC has been ranked 21, 27, 20, 23, 28, 25, 20, 21, 24, and 24 over the last 10 years. The MVC hasn't had a single at large bid in that time span either.
reread it and weep: http://realtimerpi.com/ncaab/conf_Men.html (http://realtimerpi.com/ncaab/conf_Men.html)
Perhaps your link and mine appear identical, but yours is pre-NCAA tourney and mine is post.
OVC = 15 in conference power rankings. HL = 16.
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on October 01, 2012, 08:48:29 PM
reread it and weep:
Perhaps your link and mine appear identical, but yours is pre-NCAA tourney and mine is post.
OVC = 15 in conference power rankings. HL = 16.
I did reread it and I'm not weeping. I hate to break it to you, but RealtimeRPI.com's "power rankings" and the actual conference RPI are not the same thing. I posted the REAL RPI rankings for the OVC above. You are posting RealtimeRPI.com's own ranking system, their "power rankings." Those are meaningless. If you check out their RPI page or any other site that lists conference RPI you will see that the OVC has not broken the top 20 in the last decade as I already posted above. I would provide multiple links but I haven't posted enough times for this site to allow me to post links.
Then read the CNN/SI article instead. They're on the way up, whether you like it or not.
If you'd watched the postseason--though, probably not, since you're a WSU fan-you'd see they acquitted themselves pretty well.
QuoteIn fact, outside of the top 10 or so conferences in America, only one league has put a team into the NCAA tournament's round of 32 in each of the last three seasons: the Ohio Valley Conference.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html#ixzz286mkU5dg (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_glockner/09/19/ohio-valley-belmont-murray-state/index.html#ixzz286mkU5dg)
If you look at your Realtimerpi power rankings, they don't even have the Summit listed. Can't be reliable if they forget a conference :)
Quote from: Big D on October 01, 2012, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: crusaderjoe on October 01, 2012, 03:19:11 PM
Seriously, if what BigD says above is true, you guys are missing one of the most important aspects of what he has written concerning VU. And that is this--if in fact VU has formed an alliance with Loyola and Detroit as it relates to conference expansion, this is hugely significant because this position will have indicated a paradigm shift in thinking by the Univerity.
You guys are reading something into my post that just wasn't there. Detroit and Loyola are definitely worried about the whole public vs private school thing. I don't think Valpo is worried about how many public or private schools are in the HL. I believe Valpo has been part of the discussion with Loyola and Detroit because you guys want Evansville in the HL. It is my understanding that Valpo wants Evansville more for their location and rivalry potential than the fact that they are private. Getting into Detroit/Loyola's private school campaign was just an ends to a means to get Evansville.
And for the record, the whole public vs private thing doesn't really irritate me at all. I would like the HL to add 3 great schools. I don't care if they are all private as long as they are the best 3 teams we can get. Personally I think the order we should go after schools should be:
1.Murray State
2. Belmont
3. Oakland
4. Robert Morris
5. Evansville
Nice to see you back here, although do me a favor--please don't resurrect "HorizonLeagueFan" again, ok? ;) It's getting too confusing keeping track of who's who.
I was just bantering with you about the public vs. private thing since we were discussing it on Milwakee's board some months back. As far as your comments, I wasn't trying to read into them--however if VU has aligned with UDM and LUC even in the slightest, I would say that lean is still significant for Valpo in some respects.
Question for you: Why are you putting Robert Morris above UE?
valpo tx--that's because after their performance last year, the "Summit" Conference was renamed the "Nadir" Conference (although if they catch fire upon this year's impact, they'll be adjusted to the "Nader" Conference).
In all seriousness, Horizon League fans can't throw stones at the OVC when it's had just as much success as we--if not more so--when you consider that the only program that actually made us a two-bid league--in the rare years we were even that--just left us for greener pastures.
It's as if the Gary(-Chicago) Airport were making fun of the South Bend Airport. After Hooters Air left them for the A-10 runway. We may well recruit another to be an (alle)Giant improvement, but until that happens, you can't drive your home's value up by belittling other neighborhoods.
Or mixing metaphors, apparently.
In order to fairly evaluate the impact Belmont would have on the relative difference in strength of the HL vs. the OVC, you need to also consider the difference with Belmont as a member of the HL instead of the OVC. I think the conclusion would be quite a bit different than the one you drew.
Couldn't--wouldn't be "quite" different.
How could it? Would you trade Butler straight up for Belmont? No? Then how so?
Then when you say, "but wouldn't you trade Butler for Schools A, B, & C and a bag of basketballs?" the answer is at best, "maybe", because you've increased the denominator of the equation, exponentially decreasing everyone's payout.
Let's say we make $10 mil, with or w/o Butler. Among 10 schools, that's a million each. Among 12, that's $833k--16% less!
The only way we can get back to break even--where we were before--would be to become an at-large berth-receiving league four out of five years. And that's A10/WCC territory there. Can we swing that mortgage?
The only way the OVC returns to being the "Other Valley Conference" worthy of the denigration we seem to be bent on heaping upon them is that we (or someone else) would pillage them for both Murray St & Belmont. Then we can talk about the "gentrification" of our neighborhood and the "urbanization" of theirs.
Let me see if I can accurately paraphrase your words of wit:
"You're right, wh, but it's hard so I chose to ignore it." ;)
If you were right, I wouldn't have had to tell you that you weren't ;)
Good time for this:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VcrNn8AiWMc/Tq2CavD4Y1I/AAAAAAAABCs/iv07lVmamsE/s1600/Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png)
Quote from: valpotx on October 02, 2012, 05:01:08 AM
If you look at your Realtimerpi power rankings, they don't even have the Summit listed. Can't be reliable if they forget a conference :)
Odd, because they are 16th in the Conference RPI:
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html (http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html)
Someone must have spent too much time at the summit, and was out of oxygen to the brain ???
: )
speaking of wordplay, where's bbtds been? he's always game...
Quote from: LaPorteAveApostle on October 03, 2012, 08:12:05 PM
: )
speaking of wordplay, where's bbtds been? he's always game...
I'm the geek in the pink!