Cory Johnson or Garrett Butcher????

[vu72]

I had to single out someone and chose these two as examples.  Here's the real question: Does it make sense to try and recruit big name freshman or, as Valpo has done, pick up players with obvious talent, after they have spent a season or two on major college campus'.
Butcher was a first team all stater in Indiana and an Indiana All Star.  His production at Butler has been minimal and it appears he is destined to be a role player his senior year as well.  On the other hand, we had Cory Johnson, also an All Stater (Minnesota) and a top 100 player, who chose Iowa State coming out of high school.  We had two very productive years from Cory including a second team all conference selection.
Insert Bobby Capobianco, Will Bogan, Ben Boggs or even Brandon Wood.  These guys aren't "castoffs" has had been asserted by some, they are very talented guys who didn't make the regular rotation going forward or chose to play in a system where they were more comfortable (Will Bogan) or would be used effectively.
Bobby Capobianco played 11 minutes a game as a freshman at Indiana. He was ranked number 100 by ESPN. Does anybody really think he will be a disappointment?These are the type of players we would have loved to pickup as freshman.  We get them with two years of experience and training at major conferences.  It is working well for Valpo.  Thoughts??

[setshot]

We should have picked a coach with obvious talent. Although Graves of Butler has no head coaching experience,the fact that he was a finalist for the head coaching job at Boston U. is and indicator of his talent and reputation. Hell,as an asst.,he helped coach a team to two NCAA finals and a Sweet Sixteen. Nice resume. Lickliter,when he coached Butler had two Sweet Sixteen appearances. Although he flubbed the job at Iowa,he must be a good mid-major coach. He,as well as Graves and others should at least have been interviewed for the VU head coaching job. Shucks,since we aspire to be like Butler,VU could have used an infusion of Butler blueblood. Oh well,GO CRUSADERS!

[zvillehaze]

Interesting discussion, but not sure why Garrett Butcher needs to be brought into it?  Butch has done everything that's been asked of him and he's continued to contribute despite surgeries on both knees and ongoing arthritis that make it impossible for him to practice on a regular basis (and that may take is senior year from him).

This is really a question of how Valpo should be recruiting, isn't it?  If so, the real question needs to be "Cory Johnson or Hrvoje  Vucic", "Cory Johnson or Cameron Witt" or "Brandon Wood or Tommy Kurth".  I think Valpo hit paydirt with Johnson and Wood, and continuing to take transfers seems to make some sense.

There's nothing wrong with taking transfers.  Butler's success in the early/mid eighties was built on successful transfers (Brandon Miller, Mike Monserez, Mike Green, Pete Campbell, Julian Betko) who were key parts of Sweet 16 teams.  Most non-BCS teams who have had NCAAT success (George Mason/VCU) have had key players who were BCS transfers.  What Valpo is doing is very similar and it allows them access to kids who didn't consider Valpo as an option out of high school.

IMO, it's a strategy that's tough to maintain in the long term.  However, using it to elevate your program to the level where you can be more competitive in recruiting high school players isn't a bad idea at all.

[vu72]

I probably shouldn't have used Garrett as an example.  Your Valpo example's work just as well, however, none had the resume of Garrett.  My point was that the guys we have picked up were either first team all staters or even top 100 players.  Their high school resume's compare well to a guy like Butcher.

The bigger point is, or the question to be considered is, do we gain or lose anything by taking a player with big conference experience and a great high school resume, versus taking someone with just a great high school resume who has yet to experience high level D1 play??

[Crusader03]

I think we should continue to pursue high D1 transfers until we are able to put together a tourney appearance or two...at that point, I think we will be able to bring in high school recruits who are not projects or who project to be better than role players.  Ultimately, you want to be able to pursue and successfully bring in high school kids as they will have 4-5 years in your system rather than 2-3.

[lowposter]

IMO...Cory Johnson, without a doubt.

Recruiting, or college selection is not a science.  You are dealing with 18 year old young men and perhaps more critically adult parents or AAU coaches.

In a perfect world a four year student athlete would be ideal, but everyone wants to reach to the highest level possible.  How many young men actually end up at a mid major and pass on the majors?  Not so many.  How young men pass on a mid major and go to a D2 or NAIA?  Not so many, although Greg Tonagel at IW seems to be doing that lately...and with great success.

Butcher seems like the prototypical BU recruit (3 years ago) - Indiana High School player that fit in the system.  The scary thing is they are now going a bit national with their recruiting success, taping into the Florida system. 

VU's niche right now seems to be the international player or the transfer from the majors.  As long as they realize the added risks of that route, it should be ok...until you end up with internationals that either cannot be approved or leave early for professional $$$ and you end up with a couple of scholarships sitting all season awaiting eligibility. 

The masters degree transfer rule with help, but the risk is you only have one season with the player.

[BigDWSU]

The bigger point is, or the question to be considered is, do we gain or lose anything by taking a player with big conference experience and a great high school resume, versus taking someone with just a great high school resume who has yet to experience high level D1 play??

You constantly loose the availability of a full roster if you take a transfer or 2 every year because those transfers have to sit out a year before they can play.  You can have a full roster but you will always have a couple of players not eligible to play so you have to hope no one else goes down to injury.  You also waste a bunch of scholarship money because you end up paying 3 years worth of tuition for 2 years worth of playing time due to that transfer year.  I used to argue that it all evened out because you ended up with a 5th year senior on your team that gave you an advantage, but nowadays you have to worry about those transfers graduating in 4 years and looking for a better opportunity like Brandon Wood for their 5th year.

[valpo84]

There are two themes running through this thread:

1. In the first, should Valpo have a transfer centered strategy for recruiting. It is not preferred, but you have to be selective and opportunistic about it. We have had the ability due to departures and graduations to add a few bodies. We have a mixture coming in that should also smooth out the scholarships on a per year basis. More important is are we adding talent equal to or better than what we have lost with departures and seniors. Picking up major and even upper mid-major talent that didn't fit at the previous school can pay big dividends. The question is what are you promising that player. If they expect to walk on campus and be handed a job ahead of guys who have worked hard and did their time, then you can have issues. But if they come in and work hard during their off year (aka Cory and Brandon) and then play hard and be a part of the team, then it can be hugely successful. Foreign big men "projects" are a gamble but sometimes you hit (Grafs, Zoran, etc). Sometimes they do not fully develop. But, and not to pick on anyone, sometimes you get the all-stater or 2d all-stater and it doesn't work out either. College recruiting as someone alluded to is a crap shoot. And add in the 1-and-done rules, foreign professional opps, and easy transfer rules and it's not surprising that the veteran coaches think about retiring.

2. On picking a college, I agree with the difficulty for the student-athlete. Lots of people want him to pick the name on the uniform, when the player should be looking for the program that allows him to succeed the most academically and athletically. Some players are happy with the 4-5 year experience where they get to go to a big time school. But sometimes, that isn't in their best interests. I may have used this story before but there were two "7-footers" at the same HS in northeastern Ohio. One was a big-name recruit, played the most minutes, did all the things. The other started playing ball later as he grew to 7 feet, was a bit uncoordinated, played less minutes. The first got the scholly to Ohio State, the other chose to go to Kent State where his mom worked. The first layed sparingly at OSU and would have been better off at the MAC and Horizon schools who recruited him and he would have started and been impactful. The other redshirted to gain weight, improve his foot work and conditioning. By his senior year, he started on the successful NCAA Kent teams and then played with the Atlanta Hawks. His school was a better fit. Brandon and Cory were both better fits with Valpo's style and atmosphere and thrived in it. The same can be said for Bryce picking Valpo as well. We have had transfers too and for a variety of reasons, Bouchee being a good example. He thought he was improving his "fit" and it ended sadly. The guard whose name I forget today who had to play more than expected a couple years ago transferred to a non-D1 school and has thrived. The important thing is finding the right place to play -- coach, school atmosphere, etc.

[vu72]

There are two themes running through this thread:

1. In the first, should Valpo have a transfer centered strategy for recruiting. It is not preferred, but you have to be selective and opportunistic about it. We have had the ability due to departures and graduations to add a few bodies. We have a mixture coming in that should also smooth out the scholarships on a per year basis. More important is are we adding talent equal to or better than what we have lost with departures and seniors. Picking up major and even upper mid-major talent that didn't fit at the previous school can pay big dividends. The question is what are you promising that player. If they expect to walk on campus and be handed a job ahead of guys who have worked hard and did their time, then you can have issues. But if they come in and work hard during their off year (aka Cory and Brandon) and then play hard and be a part of the team, then it can be hugely successful. Foreign big men "projects" are a gamble but sometimes you hit (Grafs, Zoran, etc). Sometimes they do not fully develop. But, and not to pick on anyone, sometimes you get the all-stater or 2d all-stater and it doesn't work out either. College recruiting as someone alluded to is a crap shoot. And add in the 1-and-done rules, foreign professional opps, and easy transfer rules and it's not surprising that the veteran coaches think about retiring.

2. On picking a college, I agree with the difficulty for the student-athlete. Lots of people want him to pick the name on the uniform, when the player should be looking for the program that allows him to succeed the most academically and athletically. Some players are happy with the 4-5 year experience where they get to go to a big time school. But sometimes, that isn't in their best interests. I may have used this story before but there were two "7-footers" at the same HS in northeastern Ohio. One was a big-name recruit, played the most minutes, did all the things. The other started playing ball later as he grew to 7 feet, was a bit uncoordinated, played less minutes. The first got the scholly to Ohio State, the other chose to go to Kent State where his mom worked. The first layed sparingly at OSU and would have been better off at the MAC and Horizon schools who recruited him and he would have started and been impactful. The other redshirted to gain weight, improve his foot work and conditioning. By his senior year, he started on the successful NCAA Kent teams and then played with the Atlanta Hawks. His school was a better fit. Brandon and Cory were both better fits with Valpo's style and atmosphere and thrived in it. The same can be said for Bryce picking Valpo as well. We have had transfers too and for a variety of reasons, Bouchee being a good example. He thought he was improving his "fit" and it ended sadly. The guard whose name I forget today who had to play more than expected a couple years ago transferred to a non-D1 school and has thrived. The important thing is finding the right place to play -- coach, school atmosphere, etc.

As usual, a well thought out post!  Thanks.

[lowposter]

Great comments 84.  Could that guard have been the Hawkins kid from LaLamiere?

[rlh]

Great comments 84.  Could that guard have been the Hawkins kid from LaLamiere?

I think you mean Haskins....now at Chaminade in Hawaii.....

[zvillehaze]

One other consequence of taking transfers is that you can end up with a bunch of kids in the same class.  I may be wrong, but it currently looks like the '12-'13 roster for Valpo will include 7 seniors (Buggs, Kenney, Broekhoff, Van Wijk, Bogan, Boggs, Edwards) and two guys in their 4th year who may possibly have another year of eligibility (Vucic and Kurth). 

On the surface, that may seem like a bad thing for the '13-'14 season.  However, Butler faced a similar situation after the '07-'08 year, but followed it up with the recruiting class of Hayward, Mack, Nored, Stigall and Butcher (I know he isn't Cory Johnson, but he has nicer rings.  ). 

With Davidson as the cornerstone of the '13 class, Valpo is positioned to use the promise of immediate playing time to build a nice incoming class for the '13-'14 season. 

To me, it looks like Bryce is on the right track.

[valpo84]

lowposter, I was actually thinking of the kid whose Dad is President at Concordia Mequin in Milwaukee. Great family. He was a "walk-on" but due to injuries ended up with more minutes, played decent and is now successful at lower level.

[vu72]

One other consequence of taking transfers is that you can end up with a bunch of kids in the same class.  I may be wrong, but it currently looks like the '12-'13 roster for Valpo will include 7 seniors (Buggs, Kenney, Broekhoff, Van Wijk, Bogan, Boggs, Edwards) and two guys in their 4th year who may possibly have another year of eligibility (Vucic and Kurth). 

On the surface, that may seem like a bad thing for the '13-'14 season.  However, Butler faced a similar situation after the '07-'08 year, but followed it up with the recruiting class of Hayward, Mack, Nored, Stigall and Butcher (I know he isn't Cory Johnson, but he has nicer rings.  ). 

With Davidson as the cornerstone of the '13 class, Valpo is positioned to use the promise of immediate playing time to build a nice incoming class for the '13-'14 season. 

To me, it looks like Bryce is on the right track.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.  Hope I didn't piss Garrett off and he turns into a monster against us!    Tommy Kurth and Vuc are indeed sophomores, eligibility wise, for this coming season.

[lowposter]

His name escapes me now, but didnt he go juco in Florida?  I believe he is at an Ivy League School now...but not completely sure.

Ed

[valpofan56]

Andrew Ferry - he played a year at West Palm Beach State College and then transferred to Cornell for last season where he averaged 12 ppg.

His Cornell Player Page

Also, if I remember correctly, his dad was the runner-up for the president position that went to Mark Heckler.