The Red- Shirt Question

[vu72]

So during discussions about different games the red shirt question has come up.  Specifically, some think that red shirting a player at a place like Valpo is ineffective as kids aren't likely to hang around for a fifth year with costs being what they are. I suspect that discussions about planning goes on before electing to red-shirt, otherwise why do it?

It is a very good question.  I did a little checking with rosters of similar schools (private, similar costs) and found that these schools have several players listed as RSr., as follows:

Dayton    15
Campbell 15
Drake      10
Butler       8
San Diego 4
Marist       4

Obviously it is a very good thing to have a fifth year player on the field with more maturity and experience versus a 18 year old freshman.  If we can get our RJrs. to return next year (10 of them) we should be a pretty good team.

[usc4valpo]

does Valpo provide scholarship money to 5th year students?

[vu72]

does Valpo provide scholarship money to 5th year students?

I presume they are in the same pool as everyone else. Perhaps this is handled by spreading the course work out over four and a half years so that they graduate in January rather then being in school for five full years. Scholarship money then would be assigned by credit versus year in school. I really don't know.

[bbtds]

I don't believe Lebron should have worn that ugly red shirt

[VU2624]

If we can get our RJrs. to return next year (10 of them) we should be a pretty good team.

I talk to enough in the know on these players and let's just say it's highly unlikely it's more than a couple and Nunes may end up being the only one. Reasons vary but amongst them are financial, wanting to move on with life and dissatisfaction with some of the staff.

[valporun]

I'm guessing we won't see many redshirts stay, unless they like Valpo too much to leave, and can afford the tuition out of pocket, since this is non-scholarship football. Also, not all redshirts balance out the classload to graduate with their Bachelors. Some will keep on a regular pace, and then start grad school in that 5th year. Very rare, and unless the coaching staff is doing their job to win, teach the scheme and sport correctly, and keep guys on the roster, most redshirts for anything outside of injuries most likely not going to be honored by the athlete in the same way as basketball and other scholarship sports.

[VU2624]

This staff had 7 5th year Srs. year 1.
Year 2 there were 9 possible returnees. 3 returned.
Year 3 there were 5 possible returnees. 1 returned.
Year 4 there are 10 possible returnees plus Nunes (11 total).

1 will definitely return assuming medical redshirt is granted. Another player would have to change his mind to change that number from 1. There's enough irritation amongst them with the staff and what is felt is a lack of accountability on the staff's part from the player's perspective to not only cause attrition last year leaving the team short on upper classmen which we are all pining for, but minimizing any possibility of 5th year eligibles returning. The Butler game and aftermath seems to have this issue bubble up again as it was a major issue last year.

[vu72]

I'm guessing we won't see many redshirts stay, unless they like Valpo too much to leave, and can afford the tuition out of pocket, since this is non-scholarship football. Also, not all redshirts balance out the classload to graduate with their Bachelors. Some will keep on a regular pace, and then start grad school in that 5th year. Very rare, and unless the coaching staff is doing their job to win, teach the scheme and sport correctly, and keep guys on the roster, most redshirts for anything outside of injuries most likely not going to be honored by the athlete in the same way as basketball and other scholarship sports.

So the question then is why does Dayton, Campbell, Drake and even Butler have a bunch?  They are in the same financial situation.  I think 2624 may have hit on it and if so then there are very troubling issues.

[Vinny]

Very concerning, if true, VU2624. I admit, I thought Cecchini was the guy to turn things around. This will be another interesting offseason.

[VU2624]

In addition to Dave's comments post game when he may have been a bit fired up in stating that the DC called a good game in trying to stop the run to the tune of 275 yards on the ground for Butler and thus laying the blame at the feet of the players. There were also comments, once again, made to the players post game which amount to "I called a great game, you just didn't execute it" from another coach. In the preview for Dayton, Dave mentions that "Butler made some adjustments at halftime and our players being caught off guard and as coaches you try and change your calls and the players weren't able to execute" right around the 4:20 mark. Let's, after a couple of days, stick it at the feet of the players again.

If coaches don't include themselves as part of the problem and solution, it's going to be pretty hard for them to accomplish a whole lot because they are going to lose the team. It could be stated that "we need to coach these kids better" which is much more inclusive but it is never stated that way. That's a problem and now it has begun to seep down through the sophs.

The coaches may not think it's a problem, those above the coaches may not think it's a problem, those on this message board may not think it's a problem. However, it's a problem.

As an aside, the offense is averaging 0.8 more points per game in league play over last year, 3 yards per game more of total offense over last year. Maybe when fingers are being pointed, they're being pointed in the wrong direction.

[IndyValpo]

In addition to Dave's comments post game when he may have been a bit fired up in stating that the DC called a good game in trying to stop the run to the tune of 275 yards on the ground for Butler and thus laying the blame at the feet of the players. There were also comments, once again, made to the players post game which amount to "I called a great game, you just didn't execute it" from another coach. In the preview for Dayton, Dave mentions that "Butler made some adjustments at halftime and our players being caught off guard and as coaches you try and change your calls and the players weren't able to execute" right around the 4:20 mark. Let's, after a couple of days, stick it at the feet of the players again.

If coaches don't include themselves as part of the problem and solution, it's going to be pretty hard for them to accomplish a whole lot because they are going to lose the team. It could be stated that "we need to coach these kids better" which is much more inclusive but it is never stated that way. That's a problem and now it has begun to seep down through the sophs.

The coaches may not think it's a problem, those above the coaches may not think it's a problem, those on this message board may not think it's a problem. However, it's a problem.

As an aside, the offense is averaging 0.8 more points per game in league play over last year, 3 yards per game more of total offense over last year. Maybe when fingers are being pointed, they're being pointed in the wrong direction.

And this is why Valpo will not be competitive in football.  It is someone else's fault, not mine.  Coaches not taking accountability, players using that as an excuse.

[VULB#62]

     The blame game, perceived or real, haunts losing team sports.  This is not as much of a problem where team results are cobbled together from individual performances (like T&F or swimming) where individuals can feel good about PRs and individual finishes regardless of how the overall team score comes out.

[VU2624]

Very concerning, if true, VU2624. I admit, I thought Cecchini was the guy to turn things around. This will be another interesting offseason.

He may be. I think he has to be willing to make some tough changes to his staff if he is going to be the guy though.

[usc4valpo]

Maybe as a whole Valpo is not as committed to a successful football program as these other schools. Regarding Dayton, they have had success in the past. They are located in Ohio, a football hotbed. Facility wise I think they are in the same category as Valpo.
Regarding Drake and Campbell, they have better facilities, a better overall football atmosphere and more fan support. Perhaps these 3 institutions also have more graduate study opportunities than Valpo.

I think the program is improving under Cecchini. They are better coached and appear to be more competent on the field. Again, I think next year they need to get out of the bottom third of the conference.

[VU2624]

Maybe as a whole Valpo is not as committed to a successful football program as these other schools. Regarding Dayton, they have had success in the past. They are located in Ohio, a football hotbed. Facility wise I think they are in the same category as Valpo. Regarding Drake and Campbell, they have better facilities, a better overall football atmosphere and more fan support. Perhaps these 3 institutions also have more graduate study opportunities than Valpo. 

Perhaps but, if these were reasons for no 5th years, it is never mentioned. What is mentioned and repeatedly by 8 or so of the players who'd be involved are the reasons I've mentioned.

[usc4valpo]

OTOH, you do not want to be too apologetic and look like a wimp.