Football sholarships?

[vu72]

I wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference

If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.

Is this not 20+ year old info? 

[/b]

Yes, and has been discussed numerous times.  I don't understand the point in  any event.  Because the PFL champion doesn't do well in the playoffs we should join a different conference?  Would Mt. Union do well in the BCS playoffs?  The PFL plays very competitive games.  We just haven't been part of to many of them of late.  We need to improve our program, that's the bottom line.  Has very little to nothing to do with the PFL's success in the playoffs.

[crusaderjoe]

I wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference

If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.

Is this concept neutral?  You know, I thought it was but it appears that Holy Cross plays D-I basketball, D-I men's hockey, and D-III women's hockey if I'm reading their schedules correctly.  Who is our resident college hockey expert here?

[VULB#62]

The automatic bid that the PFL now enjoys (but not necessarily the results of the the first round games) is a bonus that is more cosmetic than actual.  The PFL has had for decades a mission to provide non-scholarship FB for D-I schools who do not wish to undertake the large costs and pressures of a scholarship football program.  Football at PFL schools is an add-on to the spectrum of sports offered by the individual schools and in no case that I can see (except maybe for Campbell somewhat?) does FB exist as the tail that wags the dog. We discuss this annually and make the same pronouncements year after year.  It is what it is and will be that way going forward. As 72 alludes to below, we should just be thinking of ways, and doing things, to become better within that chosen context and leave it at that.

[VULB#62]

I wish Valpo would either offer scholarships or just join a D3 conference

If a school plays D1 basketball all sports have to be D1.

Is this concept neutral?  You know, I thought it was but it appears that Holy Cross plays D-I basketball, D-I men's hockey, and D-III women's hockey if I'm reading their schedules correctly.  Who is our resident college hockey expert here?

I'm not that expert.  But best as I can tell College of the Holy Cross is in The New England Hockey Conference (NEHC) that has both a men's a women's division.  The women's division, where only the women's team plays, is a mixture of D-II and D-III schools.  On the other hand, NCAA Div-I has only 35 or 36 colleges that can qualify for the NCAA tournament and Holy Cross is not among them.  So, maybe in this case the NCAA has granted some sort of waiver and women's ice hockey is treated almost like a club sport. BTW D-II ice hockey does not offer an NCAA tournament while D-III does.  Don't know why.

[valpochgo]

As long as you don't violate equal scholarships for men and women sports based on Title IX; A university can have teams compete in different divisions. Johns Hopkins and a few other colleges do it and that's why the PFL exist to get around Title IX laws.  The D1 basketball dictates D1 in every other sport is not a fact.  It's college football that was the catalyst for Title IX not basketball.


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[usc4valpo]

This is an interesting theoretical conversation. Football scholarships at Valpo will certainly not happen; they are making a decent profit with what they have now and scholarships would cut the skim.

[crusaderjoe]

As long as you don't violate equal scholarships for men and women sports based on Title IX; A university can have teams compete in different divisions. Johns Hopkins and a few other colleges do it and that's why the PFL exist to get around Title IX laws.  The D1 basketball dictates D1 in every other sport is not a fact.  It's college football that was the catalyst for Title IX not basketball.


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I get this; however, in the examples given in this thread (e.g. Hopkins, certain college hockey programs) those schools by and large were primarily non D-I schools who chose to compete in a designated D-I sport.  In the Holy Cross women's ice hockey example, it's the reverse—that is, you have a D-I school that primarily competes in the PL (with D-I football no less) with a sport that is competing in a lesser division (D-III).  As '62 suggests, I'm also guessing that there would have been some kind of grandfathering or NCAA waiver for this to have taken place. I mean Valpo can't just decide to start a D-III women's ice hockey program next year as a D-I institution, can they?

[vu72]

It is all about the money.  If you want a part of the basketball pot then you need to be D1 is everything.  There is the exception for football where you must be D1 but can offer a non-scholarship program (PFL).  So, in the case of LaCrosse, or Ice Hockey, schools can decide to play D1 if they want and can play D2 or D3 for other sports.(Minnesota Duluth is D2 and plays D1 in Hockey as does other Minnesota schools like Mankato).  Basketball makes the rules because of the huge TV deal.

[ValpoHoops]

Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.

Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.

[usc4valpo]

ValpoHoops - this was a very clear description of the rules.

[crusaderjoe]

Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.

Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.

This still doesn't answer my question.  (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)

Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III

Why?

[valporun]

How many years has Holy Cross had women's hockey? I mean if it's been about 5 years, then I understand starting small, but if it has been more than that, they should move up. If they can have one sport at a lower level, per NCAA guidelines, then they are within the loopholes of the bylaws.

[VU2624]

How many years has Holy Cross had women's hockey? I mean if it's been about 5 years, then I understand starting small, but if it has been more than that, they should move up. If they can have one sport at a lower level, per NCAA guidelines, then they are within the loopholes of the bylaws.

That's not crusaderjoe's question based on Valpohoops' response. If a school which plays div I basketball (m or w) or div I football the school is required to play all sports at a div I level according to Valpohoops' response...which I have no reason to doubt for accuracy. So how does Holy Cross play women's hockey at a lower level?

[usc4valpo]

Are we proposing Div.3 hockey at Valpo?

[covufan]

Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.

Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.

This still doesn't answer my question.  (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)

Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III

Why?

I'm guessing because the Patriot League does not have Women's Hockey.  The conference that Holy Cross uses for Women's Hockey is a Div III conference - New England Hockey Conference.  Holy Cross is not allowed to compete in the NEHC playoffs nor the Div III playoffs, per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Hockey_Conference

[VULB#62]

Schools that are not Division 1 in all sports may play ONE men's and ONE women's sport at the Division 1 level. These cannot be Basketball or Football. If a school wishes to play Football or Basketball (men's or women's) at the D1 level, they must play all sports at the D1 level.

Many schools play soccer, hockey or lacrosse at the D1 level, while maintaining a D2 or D3 standing in all other sports.

This still doesn't answer my question.  (Good information though, and this is what I suspected.)

Holy Cross Basketball - D-I
Holy Cross Football - D-I
Holy Cross Men's Ice Hockey - D-I
Holy Cross Women's Ice Hockey - D-III

Why?

I'm guessing because the Patriot League does not have Women's Hockey.  The conference that Holy Cross uses for Women's Hockey is a Div III conference - New England Hockey Conference.  Holy Cross is not allowed to compete in the NEHC playoffs nor the Div III playoffs, per wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Hockey_Conference

That's how they do it.  Hc is the only D-I team in the NEHC.  So it goes back to what I suggested earlier:  without the possibility of participating in either the NEHC playoffs or the D-III playoffs, HC women's hockey is a de facto club program created and maintained as a complementary program for female student athletes. College of the Holy Cross fields 25 sports teams.