ok, what now?

[usc4valpo]

isn't Minnesota going to a bowl game?  Also, the best thing about football season at Minnesota is that each day is one day closer to hockey season.

I guess both sides of the story are coming up.  Similar to what happened at Texas Tech with Leach.  Who really knows?

[VULB#62]

I was just using the MAC as perhaps a flawed example. Another way to look at this is from the Valpo MBB perspective.  Would MLB hire a D-III coach to replace Bryce?  I think not, unless that D-III coach once had a lot of D-I experience as an assistant or as a player or even was once a head coach at that level.  The recruiting dimension alone is mind boggling at the D-I level.  Then add the speed of the game, the talent, pressure, the high profile, the national exposure and it would be unusual for a D-I school to make that sort of leap of faith. 

Shouldn't those same factors have come into play with FB as well?  Theoretically, the only common ground between D-III and PFL is financial need vs. FB scholarships for other D-IAA leagues.  Everything else should be two divisions above (at least for most of the other PFL teams).  Therefore, experience at the D-IAA level should have weighed heavily in the decision process. 

[usc4valpo]

62, very good points.  But you cannot compare the situation of NIU, Illinois and Northwestern with Valpo and Div. 1 NS football.  I certainly do agree, however, the difference from Div 1 NS to Div. 3 and NAIA football.  The scope of the schools in Div. 1 are generally bigger than in Div. 3 or NAIA.

BTW, any new at Valpo on Carlson's status?  Nothing was written in his blog.  I wonder is something at brewing at the ARC offices.

[FWalum]

I was just using the MAC as perhaps a flawed example. Another way to look at this is from the Valpo MBB perspective.  Would MLB hire a D-III coach to replace Bryce?  I think not, unless that D-III coach once had a lot of D-I experience as an assistant or as a player or even was once a head coach at that level.  The recruiting dimension alone is mind boggling at the D-I level.  Then add the speed of the game, the talent, pressure, the high profile, the national exposure and it would be unusual for a D-I school to make that sort of leap of faith. 

Shouldn't those same factors have come into play with FB as well?  Theoretically, the only common ground between D-III and PFL is financial need vs. FB scholarships for other D-IAA leagues.  Everything else should be two divisions above (at least for most of the other PFL teams).  Therefore, experience at the D-IAA level should have weighed heavily in the decision process. 

I am surprised you would make this comparison.  These high level NAIA teams are very good, even against NCAA teams.  Here in Fort Wayne the St. Francis Cougars, a perenial NAIA powerhouse, have played against teams like Indiana State in the past and beaten them easily. Carlson's better teams in the NAIA probably would have won the PFL.

[VULB#62]

OK FW, point taken.  Any reaction to the MBB analogy?  just searching for answers.

[valporun]

VULB#62, it isn't that strange. Wisconsin brought up Bo Ryan from the D-III ranks. Sure, he hasn't been a National Championship coach, but he has some good experience to build from that helped him be competitive in the B1G for a number of years now.

[chef]

Bo Ryan came to Wisconsin from UW-Milwaukee. I hope you're not calling them a D-III program, that may upset some of our Panther fans. Also, he was a long time Wisconsin assistant, before becoming head coach at UW-Platteville.

[usc4valpo]

I was just using the MAC as perhaps a flawed example. Another way to look at this is from the Valpo MBB perspective.  Would MLB hire a D-III coach to replace Bryce?  I think not, unless that D-III coach once had a lot of D-I experience as an assistant or as a player or even was once a head coach at that level.  The recruiting dimension alone is mind boggling at the D-I level.  Then add the speed of the game, the talent, pressure, the high profile, the national exposure and it would be unusual for a D-I school to make that sort of leap of faith. 

Shouldn't those same factors have come into play with FB as well?  Theoretically, the only common ground between D-III and PFL is financial need vs. FB scholarships for other D-IAA leagues.  Everything else should be two divisions above (at least for most of the other PFL teams).  Therefore, experience at the D-IAA level should have weighed heavily in the decision process. 

I am surprised you would make this comparison.  These high level NAIA teams are very good, even against NCAA teams.  Here in Fort Wayne the St. Francis Cougars, a perenial NAIA powerhouse, have played against teams like Indiana State in the past and beaten them easily. Carlson's better teams in the NAIA probably would have won the PFL.

I agree with you FW to an extent.  However the overall scopes and portfolios of Valpo and St.  Francis are vastly different.  110 men play on the St. Francis football team - that is over 12% of the male population including the graduate students!  Thus, St. Francis emphasizes football much more than Valpo.  Also, after reviewing the academic standards of both schools, Valpo's admission standards are significantly more selective.  You can also make the same comparison with St. Joseph's Ind.  I am just basing this off the numbers.

That being said, Valpo's has a larger scope in its portfolio, and football is there just for the sake of having a program.  However, as we have discussed, that does not justify keeping things status quo.   As we know, the situation is unsatisfactory and positive changes are required. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't know that that analogy works either--at least not for VU.

How would you have felt if they hired David Macchi without any coaching experience whatsoever? 

Or Andy Horne?  Tom's son?

I love Bryce, and I wouldn't rather have anyone else, but since we're talking resumés meriting hiring...

[bbtds]

I don't know that that analogy works either--at least not for VU.

How would you have felt if they hired David Macchi without any coaching experience whatsoever? 

Or Andy Horne?  Tom's son?

I love Bryce, and I wouldn't rather have anyone else, but since we're talking resumés meriting hiring...

If both Andy Horne and David Macchi would turn the program around and go above .500 without cheating. If they also used some of the positive elements that Bryce uses then I'm all for hiring either Andy or David. It really can't get much worse. 

[slickdaddy]

you are joking comparing macchi and andy horne to bryce right?
if not you have won idiotic post of the year...congratulations

[LaPorteAveApostle]

if not you have won idiotic post of the year...congratulations

coming from a 'genius' like you, that's actually a compliment.

the argument stands.

[slickdaddy]

ok lets see...
macchi ,decent receiver -had a decent qb to help him,in a bad league
andy horne?what?coached under his dad..wow..what can i say

bryce drew
all-american
played on sweet 16
conference player of yr
played in nba for 3 different teams
played for is dad...actually a great coach

no comparison
NEXT!

GET BACK TO FOOTBALL

[HC]

Agreed, that's a pretty turrible comparison

[valpotx]

ok lets see...
macchi ,decent receiver -had a decent qb to help him,in a bad league
andy horne?what?coached under his dad..wow..what can i say

bryce drew
all-american
played on sweet 16
conference player of yr
played in nba for 3 different teams
played for is dad...actually a great coach

no comparison
NEXT!

GET BACK TO FOOTBALL

...Macchi was our QB...you must be thinking of Giancola, who was his top WR

[slickdaddy]

ok lets see... macchi ,decent receiver -had a decent qb to help him,in a bad league andy horne?what?coached under his dad..wow..what can i say bryce drew all-american played on sweet 16 conference player of yr played in nba for 3 different teams played for is dad...actually a great coach no comparison NEXT! GET BACK TO FOOTBALL

...Macchi was our QB...you must be thinking of Giancola, who was his top WR

i always get em mixed up...thanks
still...my point stays the same

[valpo95]

isn't Minnesota going to a bowl game?  Also, the best thing about football season at Minnesota is that each day is one day closer to hockey season.

As an alum of both Valpo and Minnesota, it is hard handle such sarcasm.  At least Minnesota has a history of 8 national titles and 18 conference championships.  Unfortunately, what the team did in 1967 doesn't hold a lot of weight.

By the way, yes, Minnesota is bowl-eligible this year.  Maybe that will help them keep some of the top in-state talent that seems to always get away.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I'll keep this simple for those of you who lack the cognitive skills to follow a simple argument:

#62 said how could we hire someone whose head coaching experience was mainly at the D-III level, and asked for a basketball comparison, i.e. 'would we ever hire someone with that thin a resumé for MBB?'.

I replied that that doesn't work in VU's case because we hired a former star (the football analogue being Macchi), the son of a successful coach (the football analogue being Andy Horne) with no head coaching experience of any kind.

I admit, he's done wonderfully so far, and better than I thought, but if we're not going to knock Bryce's coaching resumé, then we can't knock Dale Carlson's.

It's really not that hard.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

At least Minnesota has a history of 8 national titles and 18 conference championships.

That is true!  I clean up at bar bets by asking "who has the 3rd most B1G titles?"  Stumps everyone south of Madison.

[slickdaddy]

the argument does not work because bryce was a div 1 asst coach

my issue is that you mentioned the names macchi and horne in the same sentence as bryce

and to say the career of tom horne was successful...
as they say tomorrow on espn pregame

cmon man!
and
stop it!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

do you really not understand the difference between "head" and "assistant"?

If not, I can tell you where you need to pull your "head" out of...

[VULB#62]

One of the qualifications that I mentioned, and that was not given much play in the last several posts, was that a D-IAA HFC candidate who may not have had HFC experience at the D-I-IAA level could have D-I or D-IAA assistant coaching experience -- maybe a OC or DC job, and/or recruiting coordinator (implied was "successful experience").  My purpose was to emphasize that knowledge of the D-IAA FB environment, the competitive conditions and the recruiting pool were necessary ingredients to immediate success as opposed to learning them on the job and sacrificing a season or two in the process.

Regarding the Bryce thing.  IMO he'd qualify under these conditions because he spent years on the bench coaching next to his dad, hitting the D-I recruiting trail and was ultimately promoted to Associate HBBC.  Another year or two and Roger Powell will have a similar resume, and he'll be offered a D-I mid-major HBBC position or a top assistant job with a BCS program.  These guys didn't earn their stripes in D-III. And, FB-wise, I don't know if Macchi or young Horne have these coaching credentials.

But maybe all of this is a moot point.  Maybe it comes down to making good contact with the players, getting the most out of the player talent you have, figuring out how that talent can be made competitive, and building a program around those concepts so that the on-the-field performance is competitive regardless of whether you come from D-III or have D-I experience. Clearly that hasn't been done in the past three years, and many D-I coaches are guilty of same.

[usc4valpo]

Can it be as simple as Carlson is doing a horrible job and the university AD and administration truly could care less?  I know, beating the deadhorse again.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

No, #62, my point was this:  You can't compare basketball and football, not even at the same school at the same time, because these two situations are almost perfectly opposite.

Consider:
Carlson got his job because of his resumé, not because of who he is.
Bryce got his job because of who he is, not because of his resumé.

A further point:
Carlson's resumé will take a serious hit because of his performance.
Bryce's resumé will grow exponentially because of his performance.

Finally:
Carlson will not keep his job because of his performance.
Bryce will keep his job because of his performance.

(And:
Carlson will have a difficult time finding another [college] head coaching job; witness those who came before him.
Bryce will not have a difficult time finding another head coaching job offer; witness those (Drews) who came before him.

Apples and oranges...

[90]

Simple - Carlson has done a horrible job and it appears that the administration is not going to do anything about it.  Don't worry though, we are so close to turning it around.  Just have to limit our mistakes, be consistent, have all 11 guys doing what they're supposed to be doing, and, oh yes, play hard for four quarters.  Did I leave anything out?  How about demanding the coaches do their jobs.  Spend less time making excuses, tweeting the same inspirational quotes over and over again (Carlson is back at his favorite past time again) and blaming the past.  What a shame for the young men stuck in this ridiculous situation.