Valpo at Saint Louis 3:30 p.m. Chaifetz Arena St.Louis 12/2/12 game thread

[milanmiracle]

I miss richie edwards

I said last spring that we would have some games this season where Richie and Jay might have made a difference and yesterday was one of them. Their combination of skills at backup minutes at the 1,2, and 4 positions would have been invaluable, but going foreward I still like this team better.

Capo showed us nothing yesterday but if that is all he can give us then Edwards would never have left, so I still am expecting major contributions from him. Dority and a maturing Coleman can give this team some brand new looks and opportunities that just were not available in Saint Louis.

One more side observation, I think I have already seen more go big combination minutes of Vashil, Kevin, and Ryan than I expected to see all year and with one more 3 point shooter capable of creating his own shot on the floor with them, it might even have worked.

Um, who was the first 3 point shooter capable of creating his own shot?

[milanmiracle]

I miss richie edwards

No offense to Richie Edwards, but I don't. There are a whole laundry list of issues with this team, but missing Richie Edwards is not one of them. Again, no offense intended.

[EddieCabot]

I miss richie edwards

No offense to Richie Edwards, but I don't. There are a whole laundry list of issues with this team, but missing Richie Edwards is not one of them. Again, no offense intended.

After failing to break 50 in a pair of losses, I sort of expected someone to mention the losses of Edwards, Harris and the 18+ ppg they provided off the bench last year.  That's a knee-jerk reaction, IMO.  Just read comments from vu72, wh and other knowledgable posters/writers like Paul Oren and you'll understand that those guys left because they weren't good enough to get playing time this year.  Capobianco, Dority and others are just way more talented than those two, so get over it.

With that said, Capobianco can't be expected to do much when he's only getting 10 minutes a game, especially when it's only 2-3 minutes at a time.  You can't expect a talent like him to make contributions when he's utilized (or mis-used) like that.  That's the type of stuff he dealt with at Indiana.    

[milldew72]

The bigger - and in my opinion, only - issue that should be discussed here, again, is why this program - not just this year's team - but this program, crawl into a 25% shooting fetal position every time it goes up against a BCS team, or even a high-mid major team?
Every year you see Youngstown State's beating Georgias, and UIC's beating Northwesterns, yet this crap keeps happening to VU, year after year.
This year they couldn't beat the B1G's worst (by far) team, that three days later was trounced by a Kent State team that VU beat.
After 10 years of die hard fandom, I'm really getting sick of this inability to beat higher-level teams.

[covufan]

We are at best an average to just below average team right now.  They say that one sign of good coaching is whether a team gets better as the season goes along. So, we'll see what happens. If this team continues to sputter, Bryce Drew won't have to field any calls after the season from teams looking for a new coach like Miss St last year.

Paul

Let's remember Valpo was also 5-2 at this point last year, and then went on to lose four more December games to IPFW, Oakland, and IUPUI, as well as a home game against Milwaukee!

Yet, the team came together to win the conference season title and only fell short at the conference tournament championship game. I am optimistic and looking for this team to repeat, but to win the championship game this time.

I am optomistic as well.  Our only two losses are to teams we were underdogs to - although I'm with most that we blew a chance to beat Nebraska.  Not sure about the sputtering comment.

I fully expect this team to win the games it is supposed to win, and a few others on the road.  If we lose to NM and Murray State and win the other games in December, I'll be pleased.  I'd like one more win, but I'd still be pleased.  Anything north of 12 wins in HL play would also be very pleasing.  If Bryce does that, and wins the HL tournament, look for those calls to start again - especially if we get a favorable seeding the NCAA's and win a close game. 

[crusadermoe]

I predicted SLU to win by about 10 in earlier posts...so score not a surprise.  Don't know xs and os of hoops like I know football.   But how embarrassing for the Valpo crowd to have Buggs exposed as unable to shoot and also to see the 30-second clock go off a few times.   The refs bailed us out on some traveling calls and we still couldn't catch a spark.  Bobby C. only played 10 minutes so can't really make him a factor.   

Buggs is brutal in big games because he can't drive into the paint against bigger, reasonably quick forwards.    He does ok with those silly kick-out passes to our shooters ONLY when we play Horizon league teams or 3 guard teams.    But when a team can guard our other 4 out to the 3-line and Buggs can't hit his own shot we're pathetic.   Buggs needs to AT LEAST be able to dribble up closer and shoot.   They were sagging him by 10 feet and he still took a tentative 3 in the rare cases where he even shot.  In those cases, pull Buggs and just let Kenney run the point and we jack up 3s from all 5 spots.  At least Kenney is strong enough to actually take it to the hoop.   At least you get long rebounds and have a shooters' chance.     Totally futile in 2nd half!!

[milanmiracle]

Maybe, our team just isn't that good? I mean we've been playing below expectations for about 2 weeks or so.

Note: I don't believe the last statement to be true....yet

Teams have figured out to take Ryan away, and make the rest of the guys beat them. Against the best three opponents so far (Nebraska, Kent St, St.Louis) he's been held to an 11pt per game average. Somebody else is going to have to help...

[milanmiracle]

We are at best an average to just below average team right now.  They say that one sign of good coaching is whether a team gets better as the season goes along. So, we'll see what happens. If this team continues to sputter, Bryce Drew won't have to field any calls after the season from teams looking for a new coach like Miss St last year.

Paul

Let's remember Valpo was also 5-2 at this point last year, and then went on to lose four more December games to IPFW, Oakland, and IUPUI, as well as a home game against Milwaukee!

Yet, the team came together to win the conference season title and only fell short at the conference tournament championship game. I am optimistic and looking for this team to repeat, but to win the championship game this time.

I am optomistic as well.  Our only two losses are to teams we were underdogs to - although I'm with most that we blew a chance to beat Nebraska.  Not sure about the sputtering comment.

I fully expect this team to win the games it is supposed to win, and a few others on the road.  If we lose to NM and Murray State and win the other games in December, I'll be pleased.  I'd like one more win, but I'd still be pleased.  Anything north of 12 wins in HL play would also be very pleasing.  If Bryce does that, and wins the HL tournament, look for those calls to start again - especially if we get a favorable seeding the NCAA's and win a close game.

I predicted SLU to win by about 10 in earlier posts...so score not a surprise.  Don't know xs and os of hoops like I know football.   But how embarrassing for the Valpo crowd to have Buggs exposed as unable to shoot and also to see the 30-second clock go off a few times.   The refs bailed us out on some traveling calls and we still couldn't catch a spark.  Bobby C. only played 10 minutes so can't really make him a factor.   

Buggs is brutal in big games because he can't drive into the paint against bigger, reasonably quick forwards.    He does ok with those silly kick-out passes to our shooters ONLY when we play Horizon league teams or 3 guard teams.    But when a team can guard our other 4 out to the 3-line and Buggs can't hit his own shot we're pathetic.   Buggs needs to AT LEAST be able to dribble up closer and shoot.   They were sagging him by 10 feet and he still took a tentative 3 in the rare cases where he even shot.  In those cases, pull Buggs and just let Kenney run the point and we jack up 3s from all 5 spots.  At least Kenney is strong enough to actually take it to the hoop.   At least you get long rebounds and have a shooters' chance.     Totally futile in 2nd half!!

Well, you know more than you give yourself credit for. That's spot on! Buggs is a complete and total liability on offense, especially against decent teams. He's not the only problem, not even close, but he's the most obvious at this point. Any coach with a brain has the formula to beat Valpo right now...Double KW, ball denial on Ryan, and leave Buggs open. That's putting a lot of pressure on 2 guys (Bogan, Boggs, Kenney, Rossi or Coleman) to pick up the scoring load. Those guys are decent bench guys, but that's about it. Unfortunately Valpo needs two of them to start. Kenney is the best of the bunch, but he should be replacing Buggs...

And I don't want to say that Buggs doesn't have his place, but he shouldn't be a starting point guard on a team that was favored to win the HL. He should be a change of pace guy who starts ball pressure off the in bounds pass just to change tempo.

The biggest thing I see with Valpo is they don't have anybody who can break you down off the dribble and get their shot. Not just a shot, but their shot. It's a huge difference. Getting open is different than getting to where you want. When people play good team defense, sometimes you need a guy to get what he wants when the situation calls for it. Valpo doesn't have that player anywhere on the roster. The last guy who could do it was Brandon Wood.

When you don't have that guy AND you have a guy that doesn't need guarded...you get what you have now. A very easy team to defend and scheme against.

[valpo64]

SLU played an obviously great defensive, Majerus type game and basically shut us down.  The tribute to Majerus was terrific, after a moment of silence, he was given a 45 second standing, cheering ovation from the nearly 8,000 who attended the game.  By-the-way, Chaifetz is a GREAT venue, seating about 10,600 according to the guy sitting next to my wife and me.  It has great sight lines, tickets are not cheap,  ours were $40 each and we sat about at the end line about 20  rows up from the floor, across from the Valpo bench.  The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

As a member of the A-10, perhaps the potential fans don't get too excited to see the Billikins play such powerhouses as LaSalle, St. Bonventure, Fordham, GW and some of the other schools in that conference.  Of course the games with Butler and Xavier are big games.

[vuweathernerd]

SLU played an obviously great defensive, Majerus type game and basically shut us down.  The tribute to Majerus was terrific, after a moment of silence, he was given a 45 second standing, cheering ovation from the nearly 8,000 who attended the game.  By-the-way, Chaifetz is a GREAT venue, seating about 10,600 according to the guy sitting next to my wife and me.  It has great sight lines, tickets are not cheap,  ours were $40 each and we sat about at the end line about 20  rows up from the floor, across from the Valpo bench.  The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

As a member of the A-10, perhaps the potential fans don't get too excited to see the Billikins play such powerhouses as LaSalle, St. Bonventure, Fordham, GW and some of the other schools in that conference.  Of course the games with Butler and Xavier are big games.

i've enjoyed the couple games i've been to, and there really aren't many bad seats in the building. though when my family and i went last time, we snagged one of the ticket/hot dog/drink deals. definitely makes it cheaper.

[EddieCabot]

The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

SLU is averaging just over 6,000 per game this year (about what they had for Valpo) vs. 7,750 last year, so crowds are down a bit.  The new arena looked great on TV, especially compared to the last two SLU games I attended in The Checkerdome and Kiel Auditorium.  For you younger folks, both of those buildings bit the dust long ago.   

[bbtds]

SLU 73
VU 58

Road woes against good opponents continues. Hope I'm wrong.

Paul

Paul was certainly the most accurate in his prediction.

[atkins]

Unfortunately, my earlier prediction came true, and we were not really in the game with SLU beyond the first half.  SLU actually played a poor offensive game, and we certainly did not see them at anywhere near their best.  We were lucky not to lose by 20. 

As for Buggs, veteran posters on this board were extolling his virtues as recently as a couple of weeks ago.  Yeah, he's athletic, and he can drive to the basket, but that game does not fly against top-50 teams.  Ryan is a great player, but he does not appear to be quick enough to create his own shot when facing good defensive players and is ineffective when double-teamed.  This relative weakness won't hinder him in the pros, but it prevents him from being an elite college player.  Although I was roundly criticized on this board for contending that Valpo's lack of athleticism was an Achilles heel, it is proving to be accurate.  We looked very slow and awkward against SLU, yet another example of this issue.

Kevin's overall play and his free-throw shooting remain bright spots.  Other than that, the rest of the gang has been mediocre, with some streaky flashes of brilliance from Ryan.  I tend to agree with the posters who cite Edwards' absence as a factor this year.  Edwards was often frustrating to watch, but he could really play.  Capo, on the other hand, was a rarely used role player at IU (i.e., screener), so it is not a surprise that he's not setting the world on fire at Valpo. 

I think we expected too much of this team.  They're going to be an above-average mid-major, but many of us were looking for a Butleresque performance this year.  Lowered expectations are definitely prudent at this point. 

[wh]

Only after Capo is playing at full strength and Lavonte has an opportunity to get a few games under his belt will we be able to make an honest assessment of the full potential of this team.

[vuweathernerd]

The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

SLU is averaging just over 6,000 per game this year (about what they had for Valpo) vs. 7,750 last year, so crowds are down a bit.  The new arena looked great on TV, especially compared to the last two SLU games I attended in The Checkerdome and Kiel Auditorium.  For you younger folks, both of those buildings bit the dust long ago.   

i consider myself among the younger folk on this here board, but i remember the spectacle that was the implosion of the checkerdome, and watching it live on tv. (yes, i'm from the st louis area.) seems so much longer than only 99 that that building was taken down.

[milldew72]

The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

SLU is averaging just over 6,000 per game this year (about what they had for Valpo) vs. 7,750 last year, so crowds are down a bit.  The new arena looked great on TV, especially compared to the last two SLU games I attended in The Checkerdome and Kiel Auditorium.  For you younger folks, both of those buildings bit the dust long ago.   

i consider myself among the younger folk on this here board, but i remember the spectacle that was the implosion of the checkerdome, and watching it live on tv. (yes, i'm from the st louis area.) seems so much longer than only 99 that that building was taken down.

I was in St. Louis once as a younger kid in the mid 80s and I saw a St. Louis Steamers indoor soccer game at the CHecker Dome. Cool old room.

[bbtds]

I have also attended many events at what I remember as "The Arena." It was only the Checkerdome during the time Ralston-Purina owned the St Louis Blues and the building they played in from 1977 to 1983. Here is a video of several views of the implosion of that old building on Oakland Ave.

Demolition of the old St. Louis Arena (1999)

[covufan]

Here is some St. Louis basketball trivia:

Spirits of St. Louis: In 2012, what did the former owners of this team receive in compensation from the NBA (reportedly)?  What broadcaster started their career for the Spirits of St. Louis?

[FWalum]

I miss richie edwards

Richie Edwards was actually pretty  much of a dog the first 21 D1 games of last season with the exception of the Butler game in which he had 18 points.  In those 21 games he averaged a tad over 5 points a game.  The next 11 games he almost tripled his point production and really helped us nail down the conference championship.  Just have to say that at this point last year I was not impressed at all with Edwards.  I think transfers acclimate to their new team so I expect to see real progress with this team as the season goes on and players get comfortable with their roles and coaches expectations
.

[bbtds]

Here is some St. Louis basketball trivia:

Spirits of St. Louis: In 2012, what did the former owners of this team receive in compensation from the NBA (reportedly)?  What broadcaster started their career for the Spirits of St. Louis?

Since I heard this one before and it's a great story about covering your bases I can answer. In 1976 the Spirits of St Louis were not invited with the other ABA teams, Spurs, Pacers, Nets and Nuggets, to merge with the NBA. In their settlement with Spirits, the 2 brothers that owned the team, the Spurs, Pacers, Nets & Nuggets awarded them 1/7 of any TV money those teams would earn.....forever. I don't know the amount for 2012 but I heard the brothers have received over $250 million and this year sued for more because NBA TV, the channel, makes money on International games and the brothers wanted part of that money too.

The broadcaster on Spirits radio broadcasts was Bob Costas.

[StlVUFan]

SLU played an obviously great defensive, Majerus type game and basically shut us down.  The tribute to Majerus was terrific, after a moment of silence, he was given a 45 second standing, cheering ovation from the nearly 8,000 who attended the game.  By-the-way, Chaifetz is a GREAT venue, seating about 10,600 according to the guy sitting next to my wife and me.  It has great sight lines, tickets are not cheap,  ours were $40 each and we sat about at the end line about 20  rows up from the floor, across from the Valpo bench.  The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

As a member of the A-10, perhaps the potential fans don't get too excited to see the Billikins play such powerhouses as LaSalle, St. Bonventure, Fordham, GW and some of the other schools in that conference.  Of course the games with Butler and Xavier are big games.

i've enjoyed the couple games i've been to, and there really aren't many bad seats in the building. though when my family and i went last time, we snagged one of the ticket/hot dog/drink deals. definitely makes it cheaper.

Allow me to introduce you to my bad seat for the home opener: http://img.viame-cdn.com/photos/8c2ca5f0-0cf9-0130-7b32-1231381339ae/r600x600.jpg

[wh]

SLU played an obviously great defensive, Majerus type game and basically shut us down.  The tribute to Majerus was terrific, after a moment of silence, he was given a 45 second standing, cheering ovation from the nearly 8,000 who attended the game.  By-the-way, Chaifetz is a GREAT venue, seating about 10,600 according to the guy sitting next to my wife and me.  It has great sight lines, tickets are not cheap,  ours were $40 each and we sat about at the end line about 20  rows up from the floor, across from the Valpo bench.  The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

As a member of the A-10, perhaps the potential fans don't get too excited to see the Billikins play such powerhouses as LaSalle, St. Bonventure, Fordham, GW and some of the other schools in that conference.  Of course the games with Butler and Xavier are big games.

i've enjoyed the couple games i've been to, and there really aren't many bad seats in the building. though when my family and i went last time, we snagged one of the ticket/hot dog/drink deals. definitely makes it cheaper.

Allow me to introduce you to my bad seat for the home opener: http://img.viame-cdn.com/photos/8c2ca5f0-0cf9-0130-7b32-1231381339ae/r600x600.jpg

Hopefully you got an obstructed view discount...

[crusadermoe]

Hey, 78 had us losing by 17, but I was also within 4 when I picked SLU 61 to Valpo 52.   
Reply #20 on: November 28, 2012, 01:15:52 PM »

   
• There's no way we should be favored against SLU.    No reason to fear them either.     Like so many on the board, I love the 3 games vs. beatable Top 50 teams.     
  SLU  61    Valpo 52
  Valpo really hasn't looked good yet even though they are more talented now.     All the wins except Kent St. so far were gimmes and we've looked bad too many times in the easy games.   On the other hand, if we shoot well we can beat any of the teams on our schedule. 

[StlVUFan]

SLU played an obviously great defensive, Majerus type game and basically shut us down.  The tribute to Majerus was terrific, after a moment of silence, he was given a 45 second standing, cheering ovation from the nearly 8,000 who attended the game.  By-the-way, Chaifetz is a GREAT venue, seating about 10,600 according to the guy sitting next to my wife and me.  It has great sight lines, tickets are not cheap,  ours were $40 each and we sat about at the end line about 20  rows up from the floor, across from the Valpo bench.  The guy next to me also said they are having trouble getting big crowds, whatever that means.  It sure would be great to have a smaller version of that building at Valpo!!!

As a member of the A-10, perhaps the potential fans don't get too excited to see the Billikins play such powerhouses as LaSalle, St. Bonventure, Fordham, GW and some of the other schools in that conference.  Of course the games with Butler and Xavier are big games.

i've enjoyed the couple games i've been to, and there really aren't many bad seats in the building. though when my family and i went last time, we snagged one of the ticket/hot dog/drink deals. definitely makes it cheaper.

Allow me to introduce you to my bad seat for the home opener: http://img.viame-cdn.com/photos/8c2ca5f0-0cf9-0130-7b32-1231381339ae/r600x600.jpg

Hopefully you got an obstructed view discount...

Heck no.

[atkins]

Only after Capo is playing at full strength and Lavonte has an opportunity to get a few games under his belt will we be able to make an honest assessment of the full potential of this team.

I agree wh.  Sometimes, all it takes is one sparkplug.  Dority is not a quick guard...but we can't get it done with quickness, so maybe strength and good shooting will be a perfect substitute.  As for Capo, my friends from IU told me not to expect much but that he would at least be a good banger inside.  However, at this point, he already had a full redshirt year to improve, so I suspect that what we see now is what we will get.