1/9/13 Valpo at UIC game thread

[historyman]

I just saw Valpo is a 4 point favorite. Lets get that cover!

Those taking Valpo and the points really had to be happy to see/hear that Matt Kenney hit those last 2 free throws.

[FWalum]

I never turned on the sound -- just watching from about 5 minutes left in the 2nd half.

Stupid question from a football guy:  why do we weave in the back half of the forecourt for 7-10 seconds without even presenting a challenge to the opponent before we enter into our attack?  I ask this because it seems like UIC is a poised to attack us as soon as they cross midcourt.

Just need a simple answer.  And was happy that we got the win but the video at my end crapped out with 40.5 left and the score closer than the final.

The idea of the "weave" is that the player being screened or given the ball should look to turn the corner, if he doesn't feel he can then he either passes or screens for the next player in the"weave" who should be then looking to turn the corner on his man if the switch is not performed properly or the man guarding him looks to go over the screen and gets delayed.  I agree that we don't really look to take advantage of the "weave" too often.

[BigDFromUIC]

The biggest reason why I loved this game is because we won ... playing 5 on 8.  Pissing all over home cooking is a huge rush.

Honestly, were we watching the same game?  30 to 18 FT shots...Valpo's favor...16 personal fouls to UIC's 22.  How exactly was this home cooking?  Would've been worse had the refs actually bought some of the flops your big men had against Crittle.

You guys stepped up and made clutch shots down the stretch...hats off to you.  You deserved the win.  But to say this was 5 vs 8 makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Btw, as far as the stream, I don't think it was just a UIC issue tonight....Green Bay apparently had struggles as well.  I heard one of the UIC announcers say they just started using the HD equipment, so that may have sucked up too much HL bandwidth.  In any case, you could've selected a lower quality...medium ran fine for me most of the time....however, near the end I had to switch to low and it was almost unwatchable.  The audio has been horrendous at UIC for years....have to agree with you on that one.

[historyman]

You guys stepped up and made clutch shots down the stretch...hats off to you.  You deserved the win.  But to say this was 5 vs 8 makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

It's just one fan's opinion.

I would say there were a few calls that went against Valpo in critical situations that I would have liked to go Valpo's way but overall the refs had no real effect on the outcome of the game. But again, my opinion is also just one fan's opinion.

[valporun]

HC, who's Brogan? Is he the better shooting Bogan that we're hoping to get soon?

[Smj]

I never felt like the refs were one sided.   Did not like seeing both our big guys foul out but at least these refs were somewhat consistent and kept it from being a shoving match....   

However, I am a basketball purist and like the finesse game.   Some basketball teams just want to foul and push players around thinking that if they foul hard enough players will think twice about driving the lane.   If I wanted to see that I would watch football.

"The views and opinions expressed in this response are soley those of the authors.  These views and opinions do not necessarily represent those of Other Valpo fans and/or any/all contributors to this site."

[wh]

Just got home from the game.  It's the first time I've been to the UIC pavilion.  It's a nice venue for basketball.  It has comfortable chair back seating, a jumbo tron at one end, a lively student band, and a parking garage that is literally within a few feet of the building.  The game was really enjoyable to watch. Both teams had several nice runs, with Valpo having the good fortune of making the last one and then holding on for the victory.  Congratulations to the Crusaders on a hard fought win over a good team!

[chef]

Don't think I've ever seen a basketball game when a few things didn't boggle my mind. I'll try and post after every game, what went unusually different that night.
Erik Buggs stole the opening pass of the 2nd half and went in for an uncontested lay-up; Ben Boggs caught a breakaway pass for an uncontested lay-up. Valpo was officially given ZERO fast break points tonight.
On the second possession of the second half, Ryan Broekhoff clearly blocked a shot from the top of the key, with about 1.5 left on the shot clock, as the rebound went loose it was called a shot clocked violation, Broekhoff finished the game with ZERO blocked shots.
Then finally, with 2.31 left in the game, Crittle backed down Capobianco, who went down hard, after Bobby hits the floor, Crittle turns and lays it in. The official rules this a three point play opportunity. I'd guess if this film was shown to 20 other major college refs 0 would have called this a three - point play. Here's my sample of 20 - 13 a charge, 5 a block, no basket 1-1, and two no call. Anybody else see this play as a three-point play?

[valpotx]

The biggest reason why I loved this game is because we won ... playing 5 on 8.  Pissing all over home cooking is a huge rush.

Honestly, were we watching the same game?  30 to 18 FT shots...Valpo's favor...16 personal fouls to UIC's 22.  How exactly was this home cooking?  Would've been worse had the refs actually bought some of the flops your big men had against Crittle.

You guys stepped up and made clutch shots down the stretch...hats off to you.  You deserved the win.  But to say this was 5 vs 8 makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Btw, as far as the stream, I don't think it was just a UIC issue tonight....Green Bay apparently had struggles as well.  I heard one of the UIC announcers say they just started using the HD equipment, so that may have sucked up too much HL bandwidth.  In any case, you could've selected a lower quality...medium ran fine for me most of the time....however, near the end I had to switch to low and it was almost unwatchable.  The audio has been horrendous at UIC for years....have to agree with you on that one.

Uh....it might have helped that we had about 6-7 FT attempts in the last 15 seconds or so because you guys were trying to catch up.  Without you trying to play catch up, the fouls and FT attempts would be much closer.  Simple fact is that Crittle drops his shoulder into the defender every time, which is not a block if the defender maintains his position.  The defender has just as much right to their space as he does trying to bully his way inside.  His elbows and shoulders were ridiculous.

[oklahomamick]

Simple fact is that Crittle drops his shoulder into the defender every time, which is not a block if the defender maintains his position.  The defender has just as much right to their space as he does trying to bully his way inside.  His elbows and shoulders were ridiculous.

Very much agreed. 
Bobby and Kevin bascially fouled out guarding Crittle.  How did Vashil do?  I know he only had 1-2 minutes guarding him but wondered how he defended him since he doesn't have the pounds on him. 

[StlVUFan]

The biggest reason why I loved this game is because we won ... playing 5 on 8.  Pissing all over home cooking is a huge rush.

Honestly, were we watching the same game?  30 to 18 FT shots...Valpo's favor...16 personal fouls to UIC's 22.  How exactly was this home cooking?  Would've been worse had the refs actually bought some of the flops your big men had against Crittle.

I don't mean to sound objective, because I'm not.  I did see a couple of plays where Valpo might have gotten away with something.  There were several very questionable calls that went against Valpo, and because it was a tight game I felt like the refs were going to hand you the win.  It was an emotional outburst.  I don't *really* believe that ever happens.

Then again, comparing fouls is not the best measurement for referee neutrality.  It ignores the possibility that one side simply fouled more.  I thought at least 2 of KVW's fouls were highly questionable, and there were a couple of other calls/non-calls that had me seething.

[vu72]

A couple of oservations from last night's game:  Rowdy seems to be more aggressive of late including trying to make things happen by driving to the hoop.  I like this a lot and shows he is taking on the role of the guy who HAS to make things happen when we stall.  At the same time I thought he was a bit sloppy with his passes which is very unlike him.
Dority played well and may have been the differance maker but gets too aggressive sometimes and drives in only to have his shot rejected or turns it over.

We would be in trouble in games like last night, going up against a Josh Crittle, without having Bobby on the team.  Richie Edwards would have been killed by Crittle, not that Bobby and Kevin wern't, but with a battle down low it helped to have two bigs available.  Combined, Bobby and Kevin had the better of Krittle and his replacement.

There is something wrong with Matt as he isn't playing to his potential.  Not sure exactly what I'm getting at, but he is struggling.

Will had a bad night ut so did most of our guys, with more than one air-ball.  This is just something we will have to deal with, that being an inconsistent night from various players.  We can just hope that on any given night someone other than Ryan can hit their shots.

Overall a well played game with us again winning the rebound war against another physical team.  We had 15 TOs, which is slightly better than our season average.  Hopefully that continues to improve.

[justducky]

Then finally, with 2.31 left in the game, Crittle backed down Capobianco, who went down hard, after Bobby hits the floor, Crittle turns and lays it in. The official rules this a three point play opportunity. I'd guess if this film was shown to 20 other major college refs 0 would have called this a three - point play. Here's my sample of 20 - 13 a charge, 5 a block, no basket 1-1, and two no call. Anybody else see this play as a three-point play?

I had the advantage of listening to the radio call then going back to the HL feed to try to watch the end of the game. In my opinion no call might have been the best choice but I also couldn't argue with either a block or a charge. I do think that if the block call was legit then the continuation was also ok (slight delay but not what I was expecting from having already listened to the radio call).  But your angle might have been better.

[justducky]

Dority played well and may have been the differance maker but gets too aggressive sometimes and drives in only to have his shot rejected or turns it over.

We went the first 14 or so minutes with only 3 turnovers then end up with 15 which is still way too many. 3 times that I remember Buggs took it towards the hole with no clear plan or advantage and on all of these plays bad things happened. Dority has a better chance of throwing up a shot in these situations but is not as good as Erik in finding an open teammate.

The difference between this being a good team and a very good team is about 3 fewer turnovers per game and I hope they can figure it out.

[valpopal]

Another double-double: 21 points and 10 rebounds. Despite polls elsewhere or the rankings in record books, I am convinced this is again the best individual performer and team player in the Horizon League, as well as the best Valpo player since Bryce wore the uniform.

[wh]

Another double-double: 21 points and 10 rebounds. Despite polls elsewhere or the rankings in record books, I am convinced this is again the best individual performer and team player in the Horizon League, as well as the best Valpo player since Bryce wore the uniform.

Since he was just named the top mid major player in the country, I would hope so.

[valpopal]

Another double-double: 21 points and 10 rebounds. Despite polls elsewhere or the rankings in record books, I am convinced this is again the best individual performer and team player in the Horizon League, as well as the best Valpo player since Bryce wore the uniform.

Since he was just named the top mid major player in the country, I would hope so.

But I'm hoping those voting in polls on the Horizon League would get the message as well. As another thread points out, the just released College Hoops Daily All-Conference Picks for the 1st Half of the Season, like the league's preseason poll, chose McCallum over Broekhoff.

[agibson]

Anyone else thinks this feed is terrible?

For me the "high" quality feed, which was the default, got pretty bad.  The "medium" was mostly OK, though I eventually switched to "low" where the buffering was basically OK but the video quality was very bad. 

The audio was poor throughout.  And, a little strange that the higher the quality feed, the further it was behind the action.  Could be minutes of difference between even medium and low.

[crusadermoe]

As another admitted "football guy", I liked "VU62's question about all the horizontal ball movement that seems to burn of a lot of clock from our possessions.

[Valpo2010]

Simple fact is that Crittle drops his shoulder into the defender every time, which is not a block if the defender maintains his position.  The defender has just as much right to their space as he does trying to bully his way inside.  His elbows and shoulders were ridiculous.

Very much agreed. 
Bobby and Kevin bascially fouled out guarding Crittle.  How did Vashil do?  I know he only had 1-2 minutes guarding him but wondered how he defended him since he doesn't have the pounds on him. 

Didn't play...played a short lineup those last 2 or so minutes.  Just can't afford to have a free throw liability like Vashil out there in that situation

[BigDFromUIC]

Uh....it might have helped that we had about 6-7 FT attempts in the last 15 seconds or so because you guys were trying to catch up.  Without you trying to play catch up, the fouls and FT attempts would be much closer.  Simple fact is that Crittle drops his shoulder into the defender every time, which is not a block if the defender maintains his position.  The defender has just as much right to their space as he does trying to bully his way inside.  His elbows and shoulders were ridiculous.

Right, but even take those 6-7 FTs off....even if you take 12 FTs off, it's still hard to say UIC got home-cooking...come on.  For UIC to get home-cooking, you'd have to see a clear bias in officiating, and that wasn't even close to being the case.  Crittle is a beast down low....big, physical player.  There have been games this year where he's been whistled for the offensive.  Last night, they let the guys play...on both ends.  And it probably didn't help your cause when your big men were clearly flopping....you're not going to get the benefit of calls when you establish that you're pretending to get fouled.

don't mean to sound objective, because I'm not.  I did see a couple of plays where Valpo might have gotten away with something.  There were several very questionable calls that went against Valpo, and because it was a tight game I felt like the refs were going to hand you the win.  It was an emotional outburst.  I don't *really* believe that ever happens.


Then again, comparing fouls is not the best measurement for referee neutrality.  It ignores the possibility that one side simply fouled more.  I thought at least 2 of KVW's fouls were highly questionable, and there were a couple of other calls/non-calls that had me seething.

stlvufan, couldn't any fan of either team say that?  That there were questionable calls on both ends?...seriously, there were a number of calls I thought UIC got screwed out of as well.  Every game there are mind-blowing calls for both sides.  Doesn't mean home-cooking.  I mean it's bad enough we get beat at home by you guys, but you don't need to make it worse by saying the only way we even stayed close was because of officiating help...that's just a slap in the face.  I would argue that UIC has the least home court advantage of any team in the HL....many opposing fans find their way to the Pavilion, and we have hardly gotten any of the typical home cooking that other teams seem to get around the conference when we play them on the road.  Maybe we should visit this again when we play at Valpo...and we'll compare officiating then.

[bbtds]

stlvufan, couldn't any fan of either team say that?  That there were questionable calls on both ends?...seriously, there were a number of calls I thought UIC got screwed out of as well.  Every game there are mind-blowing calls for both sides.  Doesn't mean home-cooking.  I mean it's bad enough we get beat at home by you guys, but you don't need to make it worse by saying the only way we even stayed close was because of officiating help...that's just a slap in the face.  I would argue that UIC has the least home court advantage of any team in the HL....many opposing fans find their way to the Pavilion, and we have hardly gotten any of the typical home cooking that other teams seem to get around the conference when we play them on the road.  Maybe we should visit this again when we play at Valpo...and we'll compare officiating then.

I have to agree with BigDFromUIC. I don't believe that the refs officiated in any way that gave the game to UIC. Yes, there were some controversial calls but it doesn't mean all the calls went against Valpo or came close to all of them going against Valpo.

[vu72]

Wondered about the Crittle shoulder but didn't see a lot one way or another.  The Official Scorer may be a different story and again, not biased one way or another just weird interpretation of the facts.  See chef's analysis which I would never challenge:

Don't think I've ever seen a basketball game when a few things didn't boggle my mind. I'll try and post after every game, what went unusually different that night.
Erik Buggs stole the opening pass of the 2nd half and went in for an uncontested lay-up; Ben Boggs caught a breakaway pass for an uncontested lay-up. Valpo was officially given ZERO fast break points tonight.
On the second possession of the second half, Ryan Broekhoff clearly blocked a shot from the top of the key, with about 1.5 left on the shot clock, as the rebound went loose it was called a shot clocked violation, Broekhoff finished the game with ZERO blocked shots.
Then finally, with 2.31 left in the game, Crittle backed down Capobianco, who went down hard, after Bobby hits the floor, Crittle turns and lays it in. The official rules this a three point play opportunity. I'd guess if this film was shown to 20 other major college refs 0 would have called this a three - point play. Here's my sample of 20 - 13 a charge, 5 a block, no basket 1-1, and two no call. Anybody else see this play as a three-point play?
 

[justducky]

In my opinion no call might have been the best choice but I also couldn't argue with either a block or a charge. I do think that if the block call was legit then the continuation was also ok (slight delay but not what I was expecting from having already listened to the radio call).

Wondered about the Crittle shoulder but didn't see a lot one way or another.

Bang-bang, some contact between two very large bodies followed by an apparent flop. A hard call to make. 72 and I both watched it and neither of us are completely certain what we saw. That may be why neither of us is out there in a striped shirt with a whistle.

[StlVUFan]

Uh....it might have helped that we had about 6-7 FT attempts in the last 15 seconds or so because you guys were trying to catch up.  Without you trying to play catch up, the fouls and FT attempts would be much closer.  Simple fact is that Crittle drops his shoulder into the defender every time, which is not a block if the defender maintains his position.  The defender has just as much right to their space as he does trying to bully his way inside.  His elbows and shoulders were ridiculous.

Right, but even take those 6-7 FTs off....even if you take 12 FTs off, it's still hard to say UIC got home-cooking...come on.  For UIC to get home-cooking, you'd have to see a clear bias in officiating, and that wasn't even close to being the case.  Crittle is a beast down low....big, physical player.  There have been games this year where he's been whistled for the offensive.  Last night, they let the guys play...on both ends.  And it probably didn't help your cause when your big men were clearly flopping....you're not going to get the benefit of calls when you establish that you're pretending to get fouled.

don't mean to sound objective, because I'm not.  I did see a couple of plays where Valpo might have gotten away with something.  There were several very questionable calls that went against Valpo, and because it was a tight game I felt like the refs were going to hand you the win.  It was an emotional outburst.  I don't *really* believe that ever happens.


Then again, comparing fouls is not the best measurement for referee neutrality.  It ignores the possibility that one side simply fouled more.  I thought at least 2 of KVW's fouls were highly questionable, and there were a couple of other calls/non-calls that had me seething.

stlvufan, couldn't any fan of either team say that?  That there were questionable calls on both ends?...seriously, there were a number of calls I thought UIC got screwed out of as well.  Every game there are mind-blowing calls for both sides.  Doesn't mean home-cooking.  I mean it's bad enough we get beat at home by you guys, but you don't need to make it worse by saying the only way we even stayed close was because of officiating help...that's just a slap in the face.  I would argue that UIC has the least home court advantage of any team in the HL....many opposing fans find their way to the Pavilion, and we have hardly gotten any of the typical home cooking that other teams seem to get around the conference when we play them on the road.  Maybe we should visit this again when we play at Valpo...and we'll compare officiating then.

Of course!  It was a very nerve-wracking game for me.  Furthermore, the video was choppy, and I did miss a few minutes here and there.

You're trying to use rationality to engage an emotional argument.

I was blowing off steam.  Now, I was telling you honestly how I felt about the game.  I would have to watch again to see if I agree with you, but did you miss the part where I did admit seeing a couple of plays where Valpo got away with something?

I think it would have been a slap in the face if I'd come on your message board and said that.  Moreover, I think I was expressing more what my reaction *would have been* had we lost.  Since we won, I obviously have no serious complaint.  Win is all that matters.