Welcome to the Horizon League Oakland, Evansivlle, and Belmont!!!!!!!

[wh]

There are 3 possible outcomes for every change - positive, negative, no effect.  In the business world, the rule of thumb is to only consider making a major organizational change when the prospects of a positive outcome considerably outweigh the risks of a negative one.  As to Oakland and Detroit, I think most people would agree that the risk of a negative outcome for Oakland by joining the HL is practically non-existent. Detroit, on the other hand,  incurs a lot of downside risk in bringing Oakland on board, with a probable best case scenario of no effect on their program as it presently exists.  The point is this - Detroit agreeing to add Oakland would be a big roll of the dice for them.  I would not blame their administration at all if they are not willing to pull the trigger. Their first obligation is to their university and its stakeholders.  Their obligation to the "greater good" of the Horizon League is way down the line somewhere.       

[valporun]

I think the LUC/UIC thing works because they both have specifics about the types of students they will admit to their respective institutions. Detroit and Oakland may not have as stringent of academic standards as LUC/UIC do, so they are really concerned about the cross over in recruiting athletes from the local area, but honestly, like Stl said, if Detroit can't recruit the Detroit area because Oakland is stepping on their toes, then they might want to consider a new direction in recruiting.

[valpotx]

I would highly doubt that Detroit is asked to join the new 'Catholic 7' league.  They don't carry enough sports versus a Butler, Dayton, Xavier, Creighton, or St. Louis, and haven't had the success that these other schools have had in their main sport.  I predict that league goes to 10 teams, not 12, which would leave Detroit as the jilted wannabe that they are.  If they added baseball, as they should, it would improve their profile years down the line for other league moves.

[vu72]

Just playfully wondering if someone would pick up on it and thought for sure that setshot, not you 72, would be all over that.

But I was serious about the rivalry potential. That could turn into a local war -- and that would be great for both schools.  In the Chicago land area there are many more D-I schools vying for attention.  Metro Detroit less so -- most of the attention is in the East Lansing/Ann Arbor vicinity. A hot rivalry in the metro area would pull some of that attention back to Detroit, don'tcha think?.   

Agree, and certainly think Oakland would be a good fit although I'd like to see a couple of additional private schools like Evansville and Belmont added.  Not sure about the Chicago "rivalry" as it is hard to see much excitment for their team over on the UIC board.  They are playing the defending champs and pre-season favorites and--they have one post on the game and ZERO responses. Embarassing.

[historyman]

Not sure about the Chicago "rivalry" as it is hard to see much excitment for their team over on the UIC board.  They are playing the defending champs and pre-season favorites and--they have one post on the game and ZERO responses. Embarassing.

I think that just because a certain UIC message board doesn't have a lot of posts doesn't mean that there aren't a bunch of UIC fans out there who want to see the Flames win and aren't excited about UIC playing Valpo. They didn't have a great crowd but it wasn't awful. Not all fans like to go on message boards to talk about their team. Think about all the fanatic Valpo people who are great supporters of VU basketball but yet don't post on this message board.

[Pathfinder]

re Detroit/Oakland: teams that consider themselves higher rarely welcome in the lower rated team from the area. DePaul for years wouldn't join the MCC (as the Horizon was then known) because they didn't want to be in the conference with Loyola. With a few exceptions based on history that long predates modern recruiting and scheduling (think the Big 5 in Philly, or some of the New York City schools) it's not done. UIC joined the Horizon as part of the big package merge that preserved the conference's auto bid - very different circumstances.

But usually the better schools won't even play the perceived lesser school unless the lesser school is no threat at all, or until changing circumstances absolutely force them too because the lesser school has become on par with the better school. So Marquette doesn't want to face Milwaukee, Dayton won't play Wright State, Big 10 schools won't play their non-Big 10 in-state rivals, Georgetown doesn't play GW, and so on.

Also, as to Detroit/Oakland, there is bad blood unrelated to the competitive situation. They used to play, back when Oakland was an easy D-II and later low-major win for Detroit, but stopped because of various allegations of bad faith, etc. Detroit may soon find itself forced to play Oakland, but not yet, and WH is right about how they perceive their interest and how they must act accordingly.

All that said, I'll bet Oakland is in.

[oklahomamick]

Iwas hoping that Valpo would join the Missouri Valley.  I don't know if that would be beneficial.  I think there would be more travel. 

[valpotx]

I just read the below article, which mentions that the large Fox TV deal for the Catholic 7 would be predicated on the league obtaining 12 schools, and it could form as soon as next season.  I could see this being Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St. Louis, and Dayton, but it could involve any of several other teams.  I don't see the MVC as being as strong without Creighton, so the HL would be my option, while adding Belmont/Evansville/Oakland.  The same goes for the Atlantic-10, in that they will be significantly weakened when the dust clears, and we DO NOT want to be in that league because of travel, and they would lose their best teams.  Teams such as Fordham, La Salle, St. Joe's, etc, don't mean anything without the 4 A-10 teams above.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8831345/catholic-7-talk-tv-deal-commissioners-sources

[Valposter]

I just read the below article, which mentions that the large Fox TV deal for the Catholic 7 would be predicated on the league obtaining 12 schools, and it could form as soon as next season. I could see this being Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St. Louis, and Dayton, but it could involve any of several other teams. I don't see the MVC as being as strong without Creighton, so the HL would be my option, while adding Belmont/Evansville/Oakland. The same goes for the Atlantic-10, in that they will be significantly weakened when the dust clears, and we DO NOT want to be in that league because of travel, and they would lose their best teams. Teams such as Fordham, La Salle, St. Joe's, etc, don't mean anything without the 4 A-10 teams above. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8831345/catholic-7-talk-tv-deal-commissioners-sources

Valpotx, interesting article on the Catholic 7 television deal.....thanks for sharing.  I think you take is dead on.  I agree with all of your points.

[wh]

I just read the below article, which mentions that the large Fox TV deal for the Catholic 7 would be predicated on the league obtaining 12 schools, and it could form as soon as next season. I could see this being Butler, Xavier, Creighton, St. Louis, and Dayton, but it could involve any of several other teams. I don't see the MVC as being as strong without Creighton, so the HL would be my option, while adding Belmont/Evansville/Oakland. The same goes for the Atlantic-10, in that they will be significantly weakened when the dust clears, and we DO NOT want to be in that league because of travel, and they would lose their best teams. Teams such as Fordham, La Salle, St. Joe's, etc, don't mean anything without the 4 A-10 teams above. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8831345/catholic-7-talk-tv-deal-commissioners-sources

Valpotx, interesting article on the Catholic 7 television deal.....thanks for sharing.  I think you take is dead on.  I agree with all of your points.

Another ESPN article talks more specifically that the 3-5 schools they add to the mix would get less than half the bloated amount the "Catholic 7" schools would get from the new TV deal.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8817624/fleeing-big-east-schools-working-lucrative-tv-deal-basketball

With exit fees from the A-10 reported to be a staggering $1 Million, I can't imagine that would play well with the prospective add-ons like Xavier, Dayton, etc.

[valpotx]

Well, if they will get around $2m/year in a TV deal from this new conference (a little less than half the 7's $5m/year expectation as mentioned), and only make $400k/year currently, they pay that $1m fee off that first year, and still have $600k more that year to utilize.  After that first year, that $1.6m more per year adds up, if the articles numbers are correct!

[historyman]

It seems rather simple to me.

In another thread many posters on this board are calling Detroit classless for running up the scores in some of their games.

The dispute between Detroit and Oakland that nobody at Detroit wants to discuss was about Detroit pulling out of an oral agreement that Oakland had to play a game at the O'Rena. After Oakland recruited their NBA center Keith Benson suddenly Detroit said their was no oral agreement and said they never agreed to play that game. That is the story that OU coach, Greg Kampe related in a story in the Oakland Press about a year or two after Valpo left the Mid-Con/Summit for the Horizon League. The people at Detroit who were in charge of the athletic department at the time have since left their positions. One of those people, the assoc AD  at the time, was fired by the current president of Detroit for a relationship with one of the assistant basketball coaches. The other assistant basketball coach is suing the university for illegal dismissal, a case which has not reached the courts yet.

Now who do you guys believe? Greg Kampe, someone who has been with Oakland since their many years of Div.II dominance or the people at Detroit who, it turns out, one of them later was dismissed for an inappropriate relationship?

Let's hear someone from Detroit dispute that disagreement and the nature of it.

[StlVUFan]

It seems rather simple to me.

In another thread many posters on this board are calling Detroit classless for running up the scores in some of their games.

The dispute between Detroit and Oakland that nobody at Detroit wants to discuss was about Detroit pulling out of an oral agreement that Oakland had to play a game at the O'Rena. After Oakland recruited their NBA center Keith Benson suddenly Detroit said their was no oral agreement and said they never agreed to play that game. That is the story that OU coach, Greg Kampe related in a story in the Oakland Press about a year or two after Valpo left the Mid-Con/Summit for the Horizon League. The people at Detroit who were in charge of the athletic department at the time have since left their positions. One of those people, the assoc AD  at the time, was fired by the current president of Detroit for a relationship with one of the assistant basketball coaches. The other assistant basketball coach is suing the university for illegal dismissal, a case which has not reached the courts yet.

Now who do you guys believe? Greg Kampe, someone who has been with Oakland since their many years of Div.II dominance or the people at Detroit who, it turns out, one of them later was dismissed for an inappropriate relationship?

Let's hear someone from Detroit dispute that disagreement and the nature of it.

[bbtds]

I happened across this on the SLU board from back in December. It's a flat denial by the Evansville AD that the Purple Aces are moving to the Horizon League. The original rumor came from the writer who covers Bradley for the Peoria Journal Star.

http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=2099

(Evansville) Athletic director John Stanley denied a report Saturday by Dave Reynolds, long-time Bradley beat writer at the Peoria Journal Star, that UE would be leaving the Missouri Valley Conference for the Horizon League.

"I'm hearing that announcements on Creighton and Evansville leaving Valley are coming today," Reynolds tweeted, later adding "Creighton going to the Catholic conference, Evansville to the Horizon."

Though a move to the Horizon League wouldn't be a huge surprise — UE has by far the smallest enrollment among the MVC's 10 members — the school's athletic administration previously discussed realignment earlier this year and decided not to become part of it.

Those decisions can always change, however, given the current landscape.

"We understand that the conference world is changing rapidly and has over the last couple years, so we always have to be aware of the circumstances surrounding us, and we'll make decisions based on events as they occur," Stanley said in September. "We enjoy the Missouri Valley Conference, but we need to be cognizant of the world surround us as it comes to athletic conferences."

[valpotx]

No one ever admits if they are considering something else in the press...except Oakland lol

[vufan75]

HL Commissioner LeCrone comments on HL conference expansion in his "state of the league" address per the NWI Times article of Paul Oren. Doesn't sound like any HL expansion is imminent. After almost a year or so of waiting for some "big"  announcement and all the rumors out there, this disappoints me. Seems like we should be striking while the iron is hot, and not be in "wait and see what develops" mode. Of course, it takes two to tango as they say, and perhaps there just isn't as much mutual interest as we all would of hoped for in schools clamoring to join the HL. "Sounds like we will have to continue to be patient and wait and see what school(s) are really interested, a good fit, and can improve the conference profile. Maybe, the commish is throwing a curve ball out there and bluffing. One can hope.   

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/lecrone-expects-horizon-league-expansion-within-two-years/article_4e57fabe-6a61-5787-90e9-cdcd1a230c91.html

[bbtds]

HL Commissioner LeCrone comments on HL conference expansion in his "state of the league" address per the NWI Times article of Paul Oren. Doesn't sound like any HL expansion is imminent. After almost a year or so of waiting for some "big"  announcement and all the rumors out there, this disappoints me. Seems like we should be striking while the iron is hot, and not be in "wait and see what develops" mode. Of course, it takes two to tango as they say, and perhaps there just isn't as much mutual interest as we all would of hoped for in schools clamoring to join the HL. "Sounds like we will have to continue to be patient and wait and see what school(s) are really interested, a good fit, and can improve the conference profile. Maybe, the commish is throwing a curve ball out there and bluffing. One can hope.   

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/college/valparaiso-university/lecrone-expects-horizon-league-expansion-within-two-years/article_4e57fabe-6a61-5787-90e9-cdcd1a230c91.html

If Valpo had decided to join the OVC from the Mid-Con and all this change was going on in the mid-major conferences wouldn't it be smart for Valpo to wait to see if a better deal developed before Valpo made a final committment to the OVC?

[vufan75]

Don't know the answer to your example, could only speculate what Valpo might of done. But we do know Valpo followed thru and moved to the HL once the decision was made. Yes, I do get that times were different when Valpo made the league change in terms of conference movement. In any event, I'm still disappointed that we could not at this time convince a couple of the schools mentioned over the last year to join the HL. Maybe later...one or more of the rumored schools will join.

[bbtds]

Don't know the answer to your example, could only speculate what Valpo might of done. But we do know Valpo followed thru and moved to the HL once the decision was made. Yes, I do get that times were different when Valpo made the league change in terms of conference movement. In any event, I'm still disappointed that we could not at this time convince a couple of the schools mentioned over the last year to join the HL. Maybe later...one or more of the rumored schools will join.

I totally agree with you. I just think if Valpo was in the same boat as Evansville, Belmont, Robert Morris, Bradley, Illinois State or even Indiana State, I would be standing pat at the moment to see what other offers came out of the current movements in the mid-major conferences.

[wh]

Belmont's average game attendance in 2012 was 2,012.  As good as they were and with several recent NCAA Tourney appearances, that is terrible.  To say that Nashville, TN has not embraced them would be putting it mildly.   I would have to see a lot more evidence than simply they have a good men's bb program before I would be in favor of adding them.  Every sport at every school in the league will be spending more time on the road, more cost, and more time away from the classroom.  And for what, so we can add a school out of our footprint and which basically no one from their home city cares about.  I think we can do better than that.

[bbtds]

Belmont's average game attendance in 2012 was 2,012.  As good as they were and with several recent NCAA Tourney appearances, that is terrible.  To say that Nashville, TN has not embraced them would be putting it mildly.   I would have to see a lot more evidence than simply they have a good men's bb program before I would be in favor of adding them.  Every sport at every school in the league will be spending more time on the road, more cost, and more time away from the classroom.  And for what, so we can add a school out of our footprint and which basically no one from their home city cares about.  I think we can do better than that.

I think a move up in conference would certainly help Belmont compete with Vanderbilt for the Div.I college basketball fans which would help them get into the 3,000 fans per game range that Valpo is in.

[FWalum]

Oakland just lost to IPFW 91-72 for the third loss in as many weeks. This bounced them out of the Summit League tournament after they appeared to be making a late run at the league title (until running into the Mastodons). Beginning to wonder if they are Horizon League worthy.

[VULB#62]

I was snooping around the all-time results section on the VU MBB website and something struck me that I wasn't aware of:  From 1997-2003 VU and Belmont played regularly:

97-98  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
98-99  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
99-00  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
00-01  - Played once (H) - Valpo win
01-02  - Played once (A) - Valpo loss
02-03  - Played once (H) - Valpo win

This question is for you guys who were around and following the team back then:  Why were we doing H & A games from 97-00?  At first I thought that maybe Belmont had joined the Mid-Con, but the Mid-Con history in Wiki makes no mention of Belmont.  Although most of you probably knew all this in our prior discussions of who the HL would be inviting, this adds new light to the discussion for me at least.  There is a history there.  Just one additional variable to play with I guess.

[valpotx]

I believe that they were a schedule filler in my first year of 1999-2000, as I remember thinking it was odd that we were playing them twice.  They were fun games to be at, as they were competitive against us back then as well. 

[vurich]

I was snooping around the all-time results section on the VU MBB website and something struck me that I wasn't aware of:  From 1997-2003 VU and Belmont played regularly:

97-98  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
98-99  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
99-00  - Played twice (H/A) - Valpo winning both
00-01  - Played once (H) - Valpo win
01-02  - Played once (A) - Valpo loss
02-03  - Played once (H) - Valpo win

This question is for you guys who were around and following the team back then:  Why were we doing H & A games from 97-00?  At first I thought that maybe Belmont had joined the Mid-Con, but the Mid-Con history in Wiki makes no mention of Belmont.  Although most of you probably knew all this in our prior discussions of who the HL would be inviting, this adds new light to the discussion for me at least.  There is a history there.  Just one additional variable to play with I guess.

I was around at that time and if I recall correctly there was some speculation that Belmont was being looked at to join the Mid-Con. They made the jump to Division 1 in 1996 or 1997 and were looking for a conference affiliation and the speculation was that the home and homes were a prelude to them joining the Mid-Con. I could be mistaken but I seem to remember them having a home and home with, or at least playing some other Mid-Con members during that timeframe but don't quote me on that.  They obviously didn't end up in the Mid-Con and instead went to the Atlantic Sun, so I'm not sure how strong the interest was on either's part.