1/17: Valpo @ Detroit Game Thread oh and lots of giveaways!

[Valposter]

My personal opinion is that buggs is lightyears better than dority. He has the ability to dribble out of trouble. When dority gets doubled...he's a sitting duck. Buggs has huge upside. He is going to work on his shot, and I bet we see him hit some 3 pointers next time out. Buggs can also finsih must better at the rim. Buggs can always beat you because of his speed. Something dority doesn't have. Could dority beat buggs at an arm wrestling match...yes but buggs is the best point gaurd in the city of valpo

If Buggs is the answer at point guard, then someone please explain to me why the fans have been so upset and frustrated with turnovers, offensive flow and rhythm of the offense. That is the point guard's main job...ball security and offensive flow. So, if Bugg's, the point guard, is not primarily responsible for these issues, then who? No one has denied these issues exist. So, who is to blame for the team's unacceptable turnover rate and offensive flow issues all season and what solutions can be offered to fix?

[truth219]

I think the reason we turn the ball over so much is because all our gaurds are mediocre...buggs is the best point gaurd and kenney is the best 2 gaurd but then it gets bad. Dority bogans boggs are all blah...they have some moments but really aren't special. Let's be honest rowdy and kvw are the only  two people you can build a team around, everyone else is just role players. Kenney is pretty solid. Bogans is having a bad year. I wish everyone on our team developed like rowdy and kvw. When kevin was a sophomore...I was like who is this dufuss that fouls a lot and falls on the court a lot. By the end of that year nothing changed except he had an incredible ability to make off balanced shots. Then last year he was a beast. And rowdys game has just been unreal. Everyone else hasn't improved much at all. Lol my dad made a comment to me today while I was helping him at his house. He said...the guys that bryce has brought in aren't as good as his ol mans.....I said give bryce time, and although I disagree I don't think anyone has went beyond out expectations. This team just lacks talent at the point. Its true and very frustrating. Why do you think bryce keeps recruiting them. Dority isn't as good as I thought he would be, but at least he's an option. Buggs does come alive for the big moments and his free throw shooting was solid in detroit

[historyman]

I can't find it!!!  Someone help.

http://espn.go.com/watchespn/index

You will see 3 tabs that say Live Now/Upcoming/Replay. Click on the "Replay" tab.  Under a category that says "Sports and Shows" is a drop down menu that lists the sports that ESPN covers. It should default to "All." Click on "basketball." Scroll down to the game that says Valparaiso vs. Detroit and click on it. It should open up a new screen that loads up the game.

[HC]

Valpo also turns it over a lot because they seem to like to jump when they pass the ball.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

A lot of things Buggs does--shut down the opposing guard--can't show up in stats. 

But some things do.

I will give you that Dority is a better offensive player (ORtg 101.5 to 88.2, where 100 is average).

BUT the same things I outlined in my Dority breakdown before the year are true.  Dority is better at the stripe (84% to 52.5%) and behind the line (30% to 11.1%), but in 2-pt land, it seems like Dority's always getting blocked...because he is.  He's 23-54: 42.6%.  Buggs at least is 55.6% (35-63).  Hate to cite myself (but I will):

Either way...given that Buggs is 49 / 24 / 44 for his career, let's hope Dority's a better shooter, and although smaller sample size caveats apply, let me repeat that at USF he shot 23 / 50 / 100 in starter's minutes and 27 / 39 / 100 career.  I know–let's have LaVonte shoot everything from outside the arc and at the stripe, and Erik everything else!

And I *thought* Dority was a lot better at getting to the line, but he's not really: just a little (FT rate 53.1 to 49.3).  It's his better-at-making-FTs that makes it seem like more of a disparity.  But eFG% is actually in Buggs' favor, 46.9 to 43.6! 

Buggs gets 50% more rebounds, 40% more assists--and has a 40% better AST-to-TO ratio, so complaints about TOs don't really apply (they both average 2.6 TOs a game).  He's clutch, time and again (Kent State, Detroit, etc., etc.)  More steals, etc.  And finally, because he was supposedly the weight dragging down the comeback, or a liability with turnovers, Buggs is actually 21st in the nation in # of plus/minus games (all but one this year)!  He's ahead of Rowdy in that stat too.

The big thing Buggs had was that he was 5.18 pf/40 last year, more than 50% worse than Dority, but he has trimmed that to 4.3 this year, not great but better.

I like Dority, don't get me wrong, but he's not the right guy to initiate the offense and key the defense.  Hopefully next year he will be.  He's invaluable to have in that he's a shot-taker (if not a shot-maker yet); yesterday when Broekhoff sat, we were ok because Dority was a creator on offense.  We don't have anyone else who does that.

I suppose the apples-to-oranges crack works in another way:  they, like these two guards, are not mutually exclusive.  Playing them together is actually a pretty good card to play.

compare them yourself:  http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p2=lavonte-dority&p1=erik-buggs

[Valposter]

Valpo also turns it over a lot because they seem to like to jump when they pass the ball.

Totally agree.....very good observation!  Violation of a cardinal rule.  I have seen that a lot and it often leads to turnovers!

[Valposter]

I think the reason we turn the ball over so much is because all our gaurds are mediocre...buggs is the best point gaurd and kenney is the best 2 gaurd but then it gets bad. Dority bogans boggs are all blah...they have some moments but really aren't special. Let's be honest rowdy and kvw are the only  two people you can build a team around, everyone else is just role players. Kenney is pretty solid. Bogans is having a bad year. I wish everyone on our team developed like rowdy and kvw. When kevin was a sophomore...I was like who is this dufuss that fouls a lot and falls on the court a lot. By the end of that year nothing changed except he had an incredible ability to make off balanced shots. Then last year he was a beast. And rowdys game has just been unreal. Everyone else hasn't improved much at all. Lol my dad made a comment to me today while I was helping him at his house. He said...the guys that bryce has brought in aren't as good as his ol mans.....I said give bryce time, and although I disagree I don't think anyone has went beyond out expectations. This team just lacks talent at the point. Its true and very frustrating. Why do you think bryce keeps recruiting them. Dority isn't as good as I thought he would be, but at least he's an option. Buggs does come alive for the big moments and his free throw shooting was solid in detroit

Maybe this is a good assessment.  We just lack talent overall in the back court and no combination is really going to carry the day

[Valposter]

A lot of things Buggs does--shut down the opposing guard--can't show up in stats. 

But some things do.


I will give you that Dority is a better offensive player (ORtg 101.5 to 88.2, where 100 is average).

BUT the same things I outlined in my Dority breakdown before the year are true.  Dority is better at the stripe (84% to 52.5%) and behind the line (30% to 11.1%), but in 2-pt land, it seems like Dority's always getting blocked...because he is.  He's 23-54: 42.6%.  Buggs at least is 55.6% (35-63).  Hate to cite myself (but I will):

Either way...given that Buggs is 49 / 24 / 44 for his career, let's hope Dority's a better shooter, and although smaller sample size caveats apply, let me repeat that at USF he shot 23 / 50 / 100 in starter's minutes and 27 / 39 / 100 career.  I know–let's have LaVonte shoot everything from outside the arc and at the stripe, and Erik everything else!

And I *thought* Dority was a lot better at getting to the line, but he's not really: just a little (FT rate 53.1 to 49.3).  It's his better-at-making-FTs that makes it seem like more of a disparity.  But eFG% is actually in Buggs' favor, 46.9 to 43.6! 

Buggs gets 50% more rebounds, 40% more assists--and has a 40% better AST-to-TO ratio, so complaints about TOs don't really apply (they both average 2.6 TOs a game).  He's clutch, time and again (Kent State, Detroit, etc., etc.)  More steals, etc.  And finally, because he was supposedly the weight dragging down the comeback, or a liability with turnovers, Buggs is actually 21st in the nation in # of plus/minus games (all but one this year)!  He's ahead of Rowdy in that stat too.

The big thing Buggs had was that he was 5.18 pf/40 last year, more than 50% worse than Dority, but he has trimmed that to 4.3 this year, not great but better.

I like Dority, don't get me wrong, but he's not the right guy to initiate the offense and key the defense.  Hopefully next year he will be.  He's invaluable to have in that he's a shot-taker (if not a shot-maker yet); yesterday when Broekhoff sat, we were ok because Dority was a creator on offense.  We don't have anyone else who does that.

I suppose the apples-to-oranges crack works in another way:  they, like these two guards, are not mutually exclusive.  Playing them together is actually a pretty good card to play.

compare them yourself:  http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p2=lavonte
-dority&p1=erik-buggs

I definitely think that on a team with few scoring options that Dority needs to play more.  If that means teaming with Buggs in the back court more often to make that happen, so be it.  Let's try it and see how it works.  Maybe that proves to be an effective combination.

[FWalum]

Valpo also turns it over a lot because they seem to like to jump when they pass the ball.

Ditto

[valpopal]

I like Dority, don't get me wrong, but he's not the right guy to initiate the offense and key the defense.  Hopefully next year he will be. 

Hopefully, next year Dority will be playing the two position when Carter eventually comes aboard as the point guard initiating the offense

[Valposter]

I like Dority, don't get me wrong, but he's not the right guy to initiate the offense and key the defense.  Hopefully next year he will be. 

Hopefully, next year Dority will be playing the two position when Carter eventually comes aboard as the point guard initiating the offense

It's a shame we don't have a point guard the caliber of Carter to plug into this year's team.  I would love to see Carter, Dority, Kevin and Rowdy on the court at the same time.  Dynamic scoring potential.  Scoring droughts would be minimized.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Quote from: HC on January 18, 2013, 10:31:22 PM
Valpo also turns it over a lot because they seem to like to jump when they pass the ball.
Ditto

too many video games

[Smj]

It's a shame we don't have a point guard the caliber of Carter to plug into this year's team.  ....

Didn't we think Dority was going to "change everything"...   Dority is a great player to add and has been fun to watch.   Maybe we should not build up our expectations too much.   Carter is a kid with awesome potential but he is young.   In fact, we will have a lot of young players trying to learn how to play at the college level. 

(Also - I am not in the "Buggs haters" camp.   I think his ability to run the team is obvious.  Bryce tried having others run the team.   Anyone that can't appreciate what he brings to this team is watching games through their "hater" lens.)

[vuweathernerd]

I like Dority, don't get me wrong, but he's not the right guy to initiate the offense and key the defense.  Hopefully next year he will be. 

Hopefully, next year Dority will be playing the two position when Carter eventually comes aboard as the point guard initiating the offense

It's a shame we don't have a point guard the caliber of Carter to plug into this year's team.  I would love to see Carter, Dority, Kevin and Rowdy on the court at the same time.  Dynamic scoring potential.  Scoring droughts would be minimized.

on the bright side, it gives us the potential for more scoring to replace what we're going to be losing in rowdy, kevin, and matt kenney next year. i know we have four prolific scorers at the high school level coming in next year, but there's no way to guarantee that all four of them will continue to put up anything close to those kinds of numbers next year. wouldn't surprise me if next year's team takes a while to come together with all the turnover that we're going to see.

[Valposter]

(Also - I am not in the "Buggs haters" camp.   I think his ability to run the team is obvious.  Bryce tried having others run the team.   Anyone that can't appreciate what he brings to this team is watching games through their "hater" lens.)

(Also - I am not in the "Buggs haters" camp.   I think his ability to run the team is obvious.  Bryce tried having others run the team.   Anyone that can't appreciate what he brings to this team is watching games through their "hater" lens.)

(Also - I am not in the "Buggs haters" camp.   I think his ability to run the team is obvious.  Bryce tried having others run the team.   Anyone that can't appreciate what he brings to this team is watching games through their "hater" lens.)

I am not a "Buggs-hater", I am a "Valpo-lover".  I want Valpo to make March Madness and make a difference once there. 


Any coach will tell you that he judges his team's point guard play significantly on Turnovers and Assists.  (If a point guard can score that's a bonus, but we know Buggs can't shoot or score, so we won't even address that).  But getting back to Assists and Turnovers.  Let's take a look:


These are Horizon League Team Statistics through 1/17/13 with HL teams Stack Ranked:


HL Turnovers Per Game:


1)  UIC                      10.7
2)  Detroit                 11.5
3)  YSU                      12.3
4)  WSU                     12.9
5)  Loyola                  12.9
6)  GB                        13.9
7)  Mil                        14.8
8)  CSU                      14.9
9)  Valpo                    15.6




HL Total Turnovers (TO):


1)  UIC                         192
2)  Detroit                    207
3)  YSU                         209
4)  WSU                       220
5)  Loyola                    220
6)  GB                          242
7)  Mil                          266
8)  CSU                        284
9)  Valpo                      296


Out of 9 Horizon League basketball teams, Valpo is ranked:


Valpo 9th in Turnovers Per Game
Valpo 9th in Total Turnovers
Valpo 9th in Turnover Margin
Valpo 8th in Assists/Turnover Ratio


These are all point guard-driven stats.  These are not good stats AT ALL.  These numbers indicate two things:


1)  We have one of the worst point guards in the HL.
2)  We have one of the worst overall backcourts in the HL.


It is a huge testament to Rowdy and Kevin that we are competing for the HL lead in the standings to this point in the season.  But Valpo has a huge uphill climb to win the Horizon League Tournament with the stats and rankings anywhere close to the above, and these stats are point guard-driven.  Any coach will tell you that.  Again, it is really a testament to Kevin and Rowdy that we are winning in spite of our point guard and overall guard play.


I am a Valpo fan, not a hater of anyone.  I want Valpo to win the HL Tourny and make the Big Dance. They have the front court to do it, but the backcourt is playing poorly overall (and that especially includes the point guard.....he affects these numbers more than any other guard on the team).  The above stats are going to make ultimate success difficult, and the above stats need to get SIGNIFICANTLY better and they are driven by the point guard.  If Buggs isn't going to score (and clearly he isn't) then he needs to AT LEAST get us out of LAST PLACE in league Assist and Turnover numbers......period!!!!!!!!!!


I will not put all of the blame on Buggs as none of our guards are getting the job done.  But you can't look at the numbers above and say that:  Buggs isn't scoring, and he has Valpo in last in the league in assists and turnovers, but hey, he is fantastic and doing a great job or even a good job!!!  (But that seems to be the sentiment of everyone responding on this thread). 


If this doesn't make my point, then I give up.  I just hope Buggs takes Valpo where we all want them to go.  Rowdy and Kevin deserve it.  That's all I'm saying.

[vusupporter]

Within league-only play, Valpo leads the league in assists and is fourth in assist/turnover ratio, with more assists than turnovers.

[Smj]

 

[HC]

Assist/turnover for the whole team is not a way to defend a position that our pg stinks. Our 2 pg average just over 5 t/o per game and give out 6 assists....not good, but the rest of the team gives it up 11 times and assists only 7 per game. While our pg a/t ratio isn't good, the rest of the team is much worse.

Certainly room to improve and as vusupporter stated, they are getting better every time out.

[Valposter]

Within league-only play, Valpo leads the league in assists and is fourth in assist/turnover ratio, with more assists than turnovers.

Small sample size.  Looking at entire season much more representative.

[Smj]

Within league-only play, Valpo leads the league in assists and is fourth in assist/turnover ratio, with more assists than turnovers.

Small sample size.  Looking at entire season much more representative.

Totally disagree...   Non conference is when teams try different line ups and players that never play together.

[vu72]

Within league-only play, Valpo leads the league in assists and is fourth in assist/turnover ratio, with more assists than turnovers.

Small sample size.  Looking at entire season much more representative.

Totally disagree...   Non conference is when teams try different line ups and players that never play together.

I'm with you on this.  Sure it would have been nice to win them all and play like we had five all americans, but it didn't happen.  What counts now is how we play in conference and hopefully beyond.  If we are improving that is all that matters.

[hailcrusaders]

Within league-only play, Valpo leads the league in assists and is fourth in assist/turnover ratio, with more assists than turnovers.

Small sample size.  Looking at entire season much more representative.

Totally disagree...   Non conference is when teams try different line ups and players that never play together.

I'm with you on this.  Sure it would have been nice to win them all and play like we had five all americans, but it didn't happen.  What counts now is how we play in conference and hopefully beyond.  If we are improving that is all that matters.

Also strength of schedule varies drastically from team to team. At least sos evens out during conference play