Expectations Poll

[valpo84]

Thought it was REO Speedwagon

Sorry Charlie, Starkist is not looking for tuna with good taste but tuna that taste good.

you can tune a piano, but you can't tune a fish.

--groucho

[truth219]

Roll with the changes

[Smj]

LaporteAveApostle:
that joke smelled bad - like rotting tuna....

[valpo84]

Expectations -- I can't fight this feeling anymore

[truth219]

Rowdy- time for me to fly

[LaPorteAveApostle]

We are Blazing our own trail again!

(pretty sure speedwagon took it from groucho)

[bbtds]

It probably came to Speedwagon in a smoke filled frat in Champaign, IL. The fact they heard Groucho say it and put it in their minds didn't matter. Speedwagon never realized that is how it got there. 

[valpo84]

Was that "frat" at 157 riverside ave??

[bbtds]

Was that "frat" at 157 riverside ave??

Nope, no such address in Champaign or Urbana or as some people call it--Chambana

I always thought that was an address in L.A.

[wh]

My personal expectations have now been met: 

• Finally after 6 years we have reached the pinnacle of Horizon League play, and can for the first time say we have been where other HL programs have been before us.


• We are going back to the Big Dance after a 9-year hiatus. 


• This team has now earned its right of passage into elite team status in Valparaiso men's basketball history, and will always be remembered with great fondness.

Would I love to see a win or two in the Big Dance?  Of course.  That would place this year's team at even a higher pinnacle.  That said, thanks to last night nothing can take away from what this team has accomplished or minimize its importance in Valparaiso athletics history.  Congratulations 2012-13 Crusaders - a team for all times![/list]

[milanmiracle]

If I am being honest with myself, this team exceeded my expectations. However, with what they had returning most thought they should make the dance and they did. Anything that happens after this point is a bonus, so let's just enjoy getting to The Dance.

[78crusader]

My expectations for this team have not been met.  Before I get blasted for taking that position with a 26-7 team, please let me explain.  This team was thought of by most people as probably one of the 2 or 3 best VU teams in the last 50 years.  We had an all-senior starting lineup, which is practically unheard of today.  We were playing in a Butler-less Horizon League, still a good conference, to be sure, but with no other really top-notch teams to challenge us. 

I thought this was the year we could go in and, for the first time in several years, actually beat a BCS team -- Nebraska, which turned out to be a poor Big 10 team.  A year we could finally go in and at least take a Top 20 team (St. Louis, New Mexico) down to the wire, if not beat them.  A year in which we would finally not suffer any embarrassing losses like Oakland.  And...a year in which we could rejoin the growing list of mid-majors that have won games in the NCAA tournament.  15 years ago it was quite unusual for any mid-major to win a game in the tourney.  During the last 15 years, though, a number of other programs such as Butler, Davidson, George Mason, VCU, and Gonzaga have done quite well. 

This year we will get a #13 or, most likely, a #14 seed.  Based on our performance last night, which I realize is probably unfair since we cannot play that badly two games in a row -- can we? --I expect that we will receive a beat down from whichever #3 or #4 seed we play.  That, to me, is not fulfilling expectations.  We want our program to not only be a consistent NCAA tournament team, but most years at least be considered a dark horse candidate to win a game...or even two.  To be a team that the higher seed does not want to play.  Instead, I fear this year's team is going to join the ranks of the LIUs and Florida Gulf Coasts of the world and simply serve as cannon fodder for the higher-seeded opponent.  Everyone talks about the 1998 Sweet Sixteen team.  The year before that we nearly beat a very good Boston College team.  That is the level I thought this team would get back to. 

Paul

[truth219]

Paul, that was the best assesment of this teams expectations I've read on this board.

[milanmiracle]

My expectations for this team have not been met.  Before I get blasted for taking that position with a 26-7 team, please let me explain.  This team was thought of by most people as probably one of the 2 or 3 best VU teams in the last 50 years.  We had an all-senior starting lineup, which is practically unheard of today.  We were playing in a Butler-less Horizon League, still a good conference, to be sure, but with no other really top-notch teams to challenge us. 

I thought this was the year we could go in and, for the first time in several years, actually beat a BCS team -- Nebraska, which turned out to be a poor Big 10 team.  A year we could finally go in and at least take a Top 20 team (St. Louis, New Mexico) down to the wire, if not beat them.  A year in which we would finally not suffer any embarrassing losses like Oakland.  And...a year in which we could rejoin the growing list of mid-majors that have won games in the NCAA tournament.  15 years ago it was quite unusual for any mid-major to win a game in the tourney.  During the last 15 years, though, a number of other programs such as Butler, Davidson, George Mason, VCU, and Gonzaga have done quite well. 

This year we will get a #13 or, most likely, a #14 seed.  Based on our performance last night, which I realize is probably unfair since we cannot play that badly two games in a row -- can we? --I expect that we will receive a beat down from whichever #3 or #4 seed we play.  That, to me, is not fulfilling expectations.  We want our program to not only be a consistent NCAA tournament team, but most years at least be considered a dark horse candidate to win a game...or even two.  To be a team that the higher seed does not want to play.  Instead, I fear this year's team is going to join the ranks of the LIUs and Florida Gulf Coasts of the world and simply serve as cannon fodder for the higher-seeded opponent.  Everyone talks about the 1998 Sweet Sixteen team.  The year before that we nearly beat a very good Boston College team.  That is the level I thought this team would get back to. 

Paul

Sometimes I think we forget how good those Bryce teams really were, and while everybody knows Bryce was great, sometimes I think it's forgotten that he was an Indiana Mr. Basketball and a first round NBA draft pick. Heck, Butler had future NBA'ers Gordon Hayward and Shelvin to make their run. This is a nice team, and they've done a good job, but they're not the 98 team and they don't have any first round picks on the roster.

[crusaderjoe]

My expectations for this team have not been met.  Before I get blasted for taking that position with a 26-7 team, please let me explain.  This team was thought of by most people as probably one of the 2 or 3 best VU teams in the last 50 years.  We had an all-senior starting lineup, which is practically unheard of today.  We were playing in a Butler-less Horizon League, still a good conference, to be sure, but with no other really top-notch teams to challenge us. 

I thought this was the year we could go in and, for the first time in several years, actually beat a BCS team -- Nebraska, which turned out to be a poor Big 10 team.  A year we could finally go in and at least take a Top 20 team (St. Louis, New Mexico) down to the wire, if not beat them.  A year in which we would finally not suffer any embarrassing losses like Oakland. And...a year in which we could rejoin the growing list of mid-majors that have won games in the NCAA tournament.  15 years ago it was quite unusual for any mid-major to win a game in the tourney.  During the last 15 years, though, a number of other programs such as Butler, Davidson, George Mason, VCU, and Gonzaga have done quite well. 

This year we will get a #13 or, most likely, a #14 seed.  Based on our performance last night, which I realize is probably unfair since we cannot play that badly two games in a row -- can we? --I expect that we will receive a beat down from whichever #3 or #4 seed we play.  That, to me, is not fulfilling expectations.  We want our program to not only be a consistent NCAA tournament team, but most years at least be considered a dark horse candidate to win a game...or even two.  To be a team that the higher seed does not want to play.  Instead, I fear this year's team is going to join the ranks of the LIUs and Florida Gulf Coasts of the world and simply serve as cannon fodder for the higher-seeded opponent.  Everyone talks about the 1998 Sweet Sixteen team.  The year before that we nearly beat a very good Boston College team.  That is the level I thought this team would get back to. 

Paul

I won't put you on blast for your comments. I think you raised some very valid points, particularly where I bolded above. It does however remain to be seen whether this team will win a game or two in the NCAAs or get a beat down there as you say, so you shouldn't pass judgment on that facet yet IMO. 

Everyone pointed to Murray as the signature win on the road but the signature win should have come sooner, IMO.  I didn't like how Valpo failed to even show up in St. Louis, or how VU collapsed against Oakland and UDM, or nearly collapsed against Kent for that matter.  I keep thinking that all the pieces weren't in place though for some of those loses, but yet last night VU committed 25 turnovers after one full season of basketball together.  I'm not knocking the team or the coaches because they should be proud of their accomplishments this season, but I understand where you are coming from.

[sliman]

I, too, have a vision similar to Paul's in terms of (annual) expectations.  I would disagree, though, in his statement that Butler's departure left the HL with "no other really top-notch team..."   As much as people on this board may dislike Detroit, I don't think this statement gives their team enough credit -- did anyone prefer to face them rather than Wright State in the final?  Also, while I share the disappointment in not beating Nebraska especially and/or St. Louis and New Mexico, we knew those would be tough assignments and all three teams may have ended up stronger than Kent State or Murray State, two wins we felt were impressive at the time.  As for Oakland (and Loyola at home), those things happen; even few great teams go unbeaten.  New Mexico probably feels that way about its loss to UIC, Georgia in its loss to Youngstown State, etc. etc.  While I thought our win Tuesday night was ugly, I applaud the seniors for regrouping and putting it all together again when the game was on the line.  We may never again have a senior class as large that is as uniform in quality. 

[ValpoHoops]

A great quote from Greg Maddux...he was talking about pitching, but it applies to basketball too: "You go out there thirty or so times every year. Five times, you're great. Nobody is going to hit you...your stuff is perfect. Five times you're awful...you feel like you couldn't beat a little league team. The other twenty or so, you're ok. The thing that separates people is this: when you're great, you make sure you win, when you're awful, you find ways to stay in the game...you might lose, but you give your team a chance...and when you're ok, you battle through it and find a way to get it done. You don't get to pick the nights, they just happen."


As far as expectations, I expect us to compete for a conference championship every year. Does that mean we are always going to win...nope. But, I expect us to be around every season. This year, we won the HL, we won the HL Tournament. Expectation Met!

You want to bash the Nebraska loss? Buggs played 20 minutes and Will was the PG for the rest...that's not his game whatsoever. LaVonte wasn't eligible yet. And to say that they were a bad B1G team is accurate...but remember that the WORST B1G team beat the #3 team in the nation two weeks ago. I thought this was a game we should have had...but it was our ONLY chance against BCS teams, so its not like we went 0-5 against them.

New Mexico and St. Louis? Again, before LaVonte was eligible. Yes, these two games we got smacked...by VERY good basketball teams. I was disappointed about these two at the time, but that's waned quite a bit as the season has gone on and they went on to win conference championships.


Since the Oakland loss, we are 19-3 (including our last six and 10-of-11). We did not have our best stuff a few of these nights (Loyola, Detroit, YSU losses...GB (HLT), WSU (HLT) wins) but we still got it done in some of them. Last night is a prime example. We weren't great (and for Heaven's sake, everyone, we turned the ball over a lot (and quite a few were just bad plays), but its not like WSU wasn't playing defense...this is the team, after all, that held Detroit to 52 or whatever a few days ago), but we made plays when we had to.

I would be more disappointed going forward if we don't capitalize (the start of next year might be rough...) on the success this year. I'm not trying to direct this at you Paul, but yours is the post I'm most responding to (though there were several before, too). I think we could (and should) have won a couple more games that we didn't, but there's NO team in the country that doesn't lose a couple of games that make you scratch your head.

So, disappointing moments? Yes. But my expectations are met. We competed for (and won) a conference title. Now, the next expectation (once we do that regularly, and this is two years in a row) is that we will compete for wins in the NCAA Tournament and not get blown out.

[ValpoHoops]

/rant

Just wanted to say this as well:

No, we didn't play real well last night...but for those saying "we have no chance in the NCAA because we didn't play well last night", how quickly we forget the game at Green Bay to end the season (which, was also a big game...playing for the outright title, rather than just a throwaway).

Conference tournaments are hard to win...and the HL (and most other conferences) limit practice time during the tournament to be "even". So, we didn't have as much floor time to work out any bugs we may have had. Now we have time to relax, rest and reset for the NCAA's.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

The thing that separates people is this: when you're great, you make sure you win, when you're awful, you find ways to stay in the game...you might lose, but you give your team a chance...and when you're ok, you battle through it and find a way to get it done. You don't get to pick the nights, they just happen.

Thank you for this.  It blows my mind to think that a team that hasn't played in the tournament yet has already been written off as "not up to the level" of, for instance, a team that lost its first round game 'by only 5 points'.

[VULB#62]

          As fans, I think most, if not all, of us are happy we are where we are this afternoon-- looking forward to the selection show, wondering about where we'll be seeded, etc.  That's OK for us fans.  The big question in my mind is "What about the coach and players?"  Do they share that happiness?  An awful lot of statements have come from coaches and players during the season focusing on winning the HL tournament and getting to the dance.   If they are as happy as we are as fans, then I have no doubt that they will go into the first game without the emotion necessary to compete credibly. 

In the next 9 or 10 days Bryce and his staff have in  front of them the toughest challenge they have ever faced and they have no current experience to guide them.  I have absolutely no doubt that our players have the innate talent to do some decent damage at the dance, but do they have the will, the killer instinct and intense nature required to sustain the herculean effort necessary to achieve it?  And does this coach and his staff have the capability to take these kids to that next competitive level that is required of them?   The NCAA winners are those who properly channel enormous amounts of adrenalin and are able to narrowly focus for 40 minutes at a time.  Could that be us?   

[truth219]

The thing that separates people is this: when you're great, you make sure you win, when you're awful, you find ways to stay in the game...you might lose, but you give your team a chance...and when you're ok, you battle through it and find a way to get it done. You don't get to pick the nights, they just happen.

Thank you for this.  It blows my mind to think that a team that hasn't played in the tournament yet has already been written off as "not up to the level" of, for instance, a team that lost its first round game 'by only 5 points'.

This is a expectaion poll so if that's what his expectations are then so be it...he didn't say it happened he says he expects it to

[vu72]

These type of posts--from 78crusader (and similar ones by people like crusadermoe), puzzle me. Yes we played very tight last night, but we WON. As for not having any other good teams in the Horizon, really?  Green Bay--who had beaten a team like Marquette earlier in the year and played Wisconsin very well, losing by 11 on the road, is just one example of a good team in the Horizon.

We have lost a total of three games when having all of our rotation 8 available.  In all losses, we have not been beaten by anyone by more that 13 points.  We will play a New Mexico/St. Louis level team. Five of our seven losses have been on the road.  This will be a neutral site.  We certainly can win this next game and it certainly won't be a beatdown.

[valpotx]

I believe that regardless of who we play, we will not lose as badly as we have in previous tournaments (MSU, Gonzaga, Kentucky come to mind when I was in school).  If we play our game, we can beat a 3/4 seed with this team

[justducky]

You want to bash the Nebraska loss? Buggs played 20 minutes and Will was the PG for the rest...that's not his game whatsoever. LaVonte wasn't eligible yet. And to say that they were a bad B1G team is accurate...but remember that the WORST B1G team beat the #3 team in the nation two weeks ago. I thought this was a game we should have had...but it was our ONLY chance against BCS teams, so its not like we went 0-5 against them.

No Capo for the Neb game either. With all 3 for the entire game we might have won by 15.

Pre-season I thought at this point we would have from 5 to 7 loses. Am I satisfied? Hell no, and I believe that Bryce and the team see it just like I do. Our performance last night should be able to put any respectable 3, 4, or 5 seed team into a state of total relaxation which is just where we want them. Bring it on!

[crusaderjoe]

A great quote from Greg Maddux...he was talking about pitching, but it applies to basketball too: "You go out there thirty or so times every year. Five times, you're great. Nobody is going to hit you...your stuff is perfect. Five times you're awful...you feel like you couldn't beat a little league team. The other twenty or so, you're ok. The thing that separates people is this: when you're great, you make sure you win, when you're awful, you find ways to stay in the game...you might lose, but you give your team a chance...and when you're ok, you battle through it and find a way to get it done. You don't get to pick the nights, they just happen."


As far as expectations, I expect us to compete for a conference championship every year. Does that mean we are always going to win...nope. But, I expect us to be around every season. This year, we won the HL, we won the HL Tournament. Expectation Met!

You want to bash the Nebraska loss? Buggs played 20 minutes and Will was the PG for the rest...that's not his game whatsoever. LaVonte wasn't eligible yet. And to say that they were a bad B1G team is accurate...but remember that the WORST B1G team beat the #3 team in the nation two weeks ago. I thought this was a game we should have had...but it was our ONLY chance against BCS teams, so its not like we went 0-5 against them.

New Mexico and St. Louis? Again, before LaVonte was eligible. Yes, these two games we got smacked...by VERY good basketball teams. I was disappointed about these two at the time, but that's waned quite a bit as the season has gone on and they went on to win conference championships.


Since the Oakland loss, we are 19-3 (including our last six and 10-of-11). We did not have our best stuff a few of these nights (Loyola, Detroit, YSU losses...GB (HLT), WSU (HLT) wins) but we still got it done in some of them. Last night is a prime example. We weren't great (and for Heaven's sake, everyone, we turned the ball over a lot (and quite a few were just bad plays), but its not like WSU wasn't playing defense...this is the team, after all, that held Detroit to 52 or whatever a few days ago), but we made plays when we had to.

I would be more disappointed going forward if we don't capitalize (the start of next year might be rough...) on the success this year. I'm not trying to direct this at you Paul, but yours is the post I'm most responding to (though there were several before, too). I think we could (and should) have won a couple more games that we didn't, but there's NO team in the country that doesn't lose a couple of games that make you scratch your head.

So, disappointing moments? Yes. But my expectations are met. We competed for (and won) a conference title. Now, the next expectation (once we do that regularly, and this is two years in a row) is that we will compete for wins in the NCAA Tournament and not get blown out.

I enjoyed reading your post; however, is there really a right or wrong answer to an expectation poll or thread?  Maybe we are discussing the degree of reasonableness of one's subjective thoughts on the matter.  If you think Paul's expectations are unreasonable that is your prerogative.  I however find some merit in them--not in all of his comments (like those that concern the upcoming NCAA tournament or how the HL may be a weak conference) but some of them I think are reasonable.  I can understand where he is coming from.  But don't get me wrong--it was a good year and the team and the coaches should be proud of what they accomplished.

Edited to make this post shorter...way too long before!