Next Season and Beyond

[agibson]

Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.  Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen.

Does that description fit the new Big East?  Or the A10?  (The old A10, anyway.)

I'm not suggesting, by any means, that we've outgrown the Horizon League.  But, I increasingly wonder how different we are from, say, middle of the pack schools in the Big East or A10.

[agibson]

Not sure who it was as I think it was a shot that went over the rim and he rose up, caught it with one hand and slamed it home.  The problem was, it didn't count. No sure why.  It was the game played at the United Center.

Refreshing my memory with a bit of slightly lazy googling.  I'm probably growing the legend a little.

We all know he [Buggs] has the elevation -- his putback dunk against North Carolina at the United Center (also nullified by a foul) was the stuff of legend. But he can't palm the ball, so putback dunks are really his only chance. Alas. One of these days, it'll happen again.

http://blogs.post-trib.com/lazerus/2011/11/holy-cross-at-valparaiso-nov-1.html

[FWalum]

Sorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once.  They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above.  I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC.  They won once - and next year they will rebuild.  Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.

Sorry but you are incorrect. Valpo has won the Horizon League Regular Season Conference Championship the last two years.  The season long conference championship is much harder to win than the tournament championship.
Here is a picture showing last seasons banner along with the other banners from last year.



While maybe not "dominant" two years in a row is a pretty good and difficult accomplishment.

[EddieCabot]

VU will never get seeded higher then 12 in the HL

There have only been five seasons in the last 19 years where the Horizon League has had to settle for a 13 seed or worse.  Only nine of nineteen where the HL has settled for a 12 seed or worse.  With six multi-bid years in those 19.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men%27s_Basketball_Tournament

In that context, this year and last look like anomalies.

What makes you think they're part of a new pattern?

Not advancing the last two years is also an anomaly, as the Horizon had won 22 NCAA tournament games over the previous 17 seasons.  There aren't many (if any) non-BCS conferences that can match that success.

[valpotx]

On that point, we have won 2 regular season titles in a row, and blew the 2010-2011 regular season title in the last 2 games.  Therefore, we have been at the top of the league for 3 straight seasons, and would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10.  We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.

[usc4valpo]

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

I would disagree on the high academic standards discussion.  Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools.  It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others.  UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture.  Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.

[usc4valpo]

Sorry, Valpo has won the Horizon just once. They have not dominated the conference and certainly not ready to join the A10 or above. I am not even sure they are ready for the MVC. They won once - and next year they will rebuild. Some of the Horizon league teams actually play good basketball.

Sorry but you are incorrect. Valpo has won the Horizon League Regular Season Conference Championship the last two years. The season long conference championship is much harder to win than the tournament championship. Here is a picture showing last seasons banner along with the other banners from last year. While maybe not "dominant" two years in a row is a pretty good and difficult accomplishment.

OK, they have made the tournamment once in the Horizon and the game was over by half.  On a national perspective, people remember if they make the NCAA tournament more than if they win their regualr season.  It's like the Bulls last year - great record in the regular season, but no one cares since they lost in the first round.

Valpo is getting better, they need to win in the post season more, and I think they are in the right direction.  But they are not close to Butler's level right now.

[classof2014]

and would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10.  We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.

I do believe we would be among the top in the MVC, beat two very good MVC teams this season as in Eastern Kentucky and Murrary State. Would have loved to see if we could play Belmont. I don't think we would finish in the top 5 of the A-10. I think we would finish in the top half though and possibly crack the top 5. I don't believe we were up with the same level as a SLU, Butler, or a VCU. I would see VU falling somewhere between 3 and 8 in the A-10, I do think Temple and LaSalle would be tough but I think we could have beat them this year but they could easily beat us. So I think the MVC would be a great fit, the A-10 would be tough, but yes I do think we would be competitive and finish in the top half of teams.

[usc4valpo]

and would compete just fine in the MVC and A-10. We wouldn't necessarily win those leagues, but we could be in the top 5 in each, which is a positive thing to say.

I do believe we would be among the top in the MVC, beat two very good MVC teams this season as in Eastern Kentucky and Murrary State. Would have loved to see if we could play Belmont. I don't think we would finish in the top 5 of the A-10. I think we would finish in the top half though and possibly crack the top 5. I don't believe we were up with the same level as a SLU, Butler, or a VCU. I would see VU falling somewhere between 3 and 8 in the A-10, I do think Temple and LaSalle would be tough but I think we could have beat them this year but they could easily beat us. So I think the MVC would be a great fit, the A-10 would be tough, but yes I do think we would be competitive and finish in the top half of teams.

ude, I think you are referring to the OVC, not the MVC...

[valpotx]

Also, I would not be worried about us against Butler.  If we played them twice this season, we would have beaten them at least once...

[classof2014]

Sorry got my Valleys confused. Anyways I think the OVC is probably the best fit for Valpo. I think it's a step up from the Horizon but the MVC would be good too but much tougher, with Wichita State and Creighton both winning games in the tourney this year. While the OVC did have Belmont this year and a few more quality programs than the Horizon has in Murray State and Eastern Kentucky. The OVC would also be the better fit geographically speaking.

[usc4valpo]

Dude, I disagree.  The Horizon is a better conference than the OVC.  Belmont is getting better but cannot win that first game.  Murray St. has a nice record but faces weak competition in and out of conference.  Easter Kentucky is the same and a true ham-and-egger type team.

IMO, if Valpo moves up, it makes sense to go to the Valley.  Of course these days, just like Michele Bachmann, nothing makes sense.

[classof2014]

I think the OVC is a slight step up from the Horizon. Both conferences are very similar though. If the Horizon still had Butler they would be by far the better conference. It's close but they just have one or two more better teams than the Horizon does.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

That may well be what you think, but the Other Valley Conference has never been ranked higher than the HL. I doubt they have ever even been closer than this year, when they were 16 and we 12.

[vu72]

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

I would  disagree on the high academic standards discussion.  Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools.  It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others.  UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture.  Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.

You're joking right?  It's like comparing Northwestern to Western Illinois.  Academically, we don't belong to the Horizon. That isn't why we are there.

[valpotx]

I am starting to think that 'class' is the true reincarnation of 'saders, but this time he is portraying a current VU student to combat our attendance threads lol.  The OVC better than the HL??  Please, you need to do the research before saying such a thing.  We beat the ever-living crap out of one of their better teams, and beat another of their top teams on their court.  Belmont was vastly overrated.  The OVC as a better geographic fit?  Their schools would increase our travel for all sports.

[a3uge]

16 21 27 20 and 23.

12 14 11 14 and 12.

The top number is the OVCs RPI rank. The bottom is the Horizons last five years RPI rank. The Horizon is much better at basketball and fits geographically with Valpo. I mean Valpo is almost literally in the middle of the Horizon league.

[usc4valpo]

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

^ much more level headed than me, but yeah, exactly.

Can we all just settle down for a moment and look at things reasonably without just spouting off the top of our heads. VU72too, I think why everyone thinks you are trying to aggravate the more frequent posters on this board is because you don't really seem to have done any looking into the conference situations. Look at this... 1 Mountain West 2 Big Ten 3 Big East 4 Atlantic Coast 5 Big 12 6 Pacific-12 7 Atlantic 10 8 Southeastern 9 Missouri Valley 10 West Coast 11 Conference USA 12 Horizon League Where do you see us going? There are only a few reasonable choices. Mountain West, bad fit geographically, Big Ten, not hardly, New Big East, might be a fit, Old Big East, no fit there, ACC, not a chance, Big 12, same as ACC, PAC 12, no way, A 10, maybe a chance, SEC, not in a million, MVC, might be something there, West Coast, I don't think so, and Conference USA is not a fit. So that leaves us with 3 possibilities higher than our current conference that might look at us as a potential member. Why? Only because we have won the HL two years in a row. Was the move to the HL good for VU? Absolutely for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. Would we like it better if we played in a league that had private schools of high academic standards of our size that were also good in basketball? Absolutely!! The reality is that there really aren't many opportunities to make that happen and we would need to be invited to one of those three conferences in order for it to happen. That is why many posters thought you were being sarcastic and perhaps were a poster that has done this to us many times before. So chill out everybody.

I would disagree on the high academic standards discussion. Just because you are private does not imply you are better academically than the state schools. It's starting to sound a little snobbish, and Valpo is a good school, but not at the same level as others. UIC has a good engineering school and benefits from the diverse Chicago culture. Cleveland State UWGB and UWM has some decent programs.

You're joking right? It's like comparing Northwestern to Western Illinois. Academically, we don't belong to the Horizon. That isn't why we are there.

Let's not go to that extreme.  Valparaiso academically is not Northwestern and there is no comparision.  Also, Loyola is a very good school, as is Detroit and UIC and UWGB has some good programs.  Valpo is a very good school and one of the best in the Horizon, but please, let's not get elitist.  Valpo has gaps too.

My question is - what conference do you recommend if Valpo wants to move?  A-10?  That can make sense.

One thing for sure - this discussion is hypothetical.  Valpo will not leave the Horizon for awhile.

[classof2014]

My question is - what conference do you recommend if Valpo wants to move?  A-10?  That can make sense.

Personally I don't see Valpo leaving. I think the Horizon is a good fit in many ways. We're competitive in all sports but have yet to dominate anything. If Valpo wants to go to the A-10 the basketball team needs to do more than make it to one NCAA tourny and win 2 conference titles. If they're able to put together a string of 3 or 4 straight tournament births and win a game or two in the tournament then I can see us leaving for greener pastures.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

a string of 3 or 4 straight tournament births

we may not have that yet, but if you look across VU's coaching staff, we have 2 or three straight tournament adoptions.

[crusadermoe]

I think our non-basketball tournament "births" are a BIG factor......and the journey for Valpo to reach them seemed as long and painful a journey as child-bearing.   

Those are the bedrock of our future jump to any new conference.   I seriously think we would truly have the resume for a future MVC move now because volleyball is rock solid here and baseball and softball are very good too.

HOWEVER,....the question becomes whether we want to travel to Wichita St. and Mo. State and some other long trips when the Horizon League cities are better fits for travel and alumni attendance.    Soccer might be a sport to really think through before jumping into multiple trips to the prairie. 

[wh]

The MVC without Creighton would be the 11th ranked conference in RPI (just ahead of the Horizon League) instead of 8th.  The MVC without Creighton is a 1-bid league, not a multi-bid league.  Add to that the proximity disadvantage (and everything that means) of being on the far edge of the MVC footprint instead of in the dead center of the HL, this move could not possibly be in the best interests of VU student athletes.  I would be amazed if ml would pull the trigger on something like this, and that's assuming that the MVC would extend an invitation in the first place.  Just my opinion.

[FWalum]

I think we really have to look at poaching two of the upper level teams from the OVC and perhaps Evansville from the MVC.  wh is right in saying that without Creighton the MVC comes down more to our level making it an easier decision for the EU administration to make the move.  I know that they love the MVC, but I think they could be more competitive in the HL.  After being on the parent's board I know that they think VU is one of their main competitors from an admissions standpoint.

[classof2014]

I think we really have to look at poaching two of the upper level teams from the OVC and perhaps Evansville from the MVC.

Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. I don't believe we should go to the MVC, with them losing Creighton the league is similar to the Horizon, and geographically the nearest team I believe would be Bradley in Peoria, not the two Chicago teams. In the HL you also have a few large cities: Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that all have a strong VU alumni presence in them, while the largest city in the MVC would be Des Moines. And travel is a lot easier in the HL for VU, Youngstown being the furthest they have to go compared to Wichita. Thus if the HL could poach a few to level teams from the OVC and the MVC instead of VU moving would be much more beneficial to the program.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Thus if the HL could poach a few to level teams from the OVC and the MVC instead of VU moving would be much more beneficial to the program.

wh, good point on the MVC minus Creighton, although given that we lost Butler and kept our spot, perhaps we shouldn't expect them to fold when Wichita St is up there.

I think an emerging consensus is then forming here:  let's stay in the HL and now that the A-10 and MVC are taking hits, let's carefully expand and take shots at them when we can/should:  MVC (Bradley, Evansville?) OVC (Belmont? MSU or EKU?)

Whoever said you can't build yourself up by tearing someone else down clearly never commissioner-ated a conference.