Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[isu87]

looks like the MVC is visiting Valpo this week, your thoughts on moving over to the MVC?? We'd have all of western Indiana covered with Valpo being added.

if you go to kansascity dot com there is a story about site visits

[valpo04]

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html

UMKC, which announced last month it was leaving the Summit League for the Western Athletic Conference, is on a list of schools Missouri Valley Conference officials plan to visit this week for membership consideration, The Star has learned.

The others: Valparaiso, Loyola (Chicago) and University of Illinois-Chicago, all members of the Horizon League.

[classof2014]

Out of all the conferences that Valpo can potentially move to, this is the best fit. I think the competition is a step up from the Horizon but not too big of a leap.. I think they would be in over their heads in the A-10 but the MVC would be nice, it would mean more travelling though, but the only schools that are quite the hike are Missouri State and Wichita State. It would be unfortunate to lose the Chicago teams because of the Chicago market, wouldn't miss the low-level competition between two struggling schools though.

Would love to see an intrastate rivalry start once again with Indiana State and Evansville!

[Cliston94]

If they're considering Valpo, UMKC and Loyola and UIC, there are pluses and minuses to each.

VALPO: Of the three, Valpo has the biggest name and, at the current time, the best program. By far. It's a credible pick. Nobody will say, "Wow, you're really weakening your brand by taking Valpo." It also gives Evansville and Indiana State another nearby conference rival. On the flip side, Indiana is on the periphery of the MVC, and the Valley already has two Indiana schools. Valpo gets the league into the periphery of the Chicago market, but if the Chicago market is what's important to the MVC, it is far more likely to pick Loyola or UIC. I don't know how Valpo's facilities compare to UMKC's, but if it comes down to facilities, VU loses out to Loyola and UIC for sure.

LOYOLA: Loyola just upgraded all its facilities and is in a rich recruiting area. But Loyola hasn't even finished .500 in the Horizon League in forever, so the Ramblers aren't going to have an immediate impact, and the name isn't as credible as Valpo's. Still, that gets the MVC into the Chicago media market. Theoretically, Loyola looks like it could be getting ready to make a move upward, and MVC membership could help its recruiting, but that would also be true for either Valpo or UMKC.

UIC: Has basically the same advantages, and the same disadvantages, as Loyola.

UMKC: Geographically, this is the best option, but UMKC offers virtually nothing else. The program is not as strong as Valpo's or even Loyola's, and if you have a choice between the Chicago media market and the KC market, it's a no-brainer. I suspect this is more of a courtesy call on the Valley's part than anything else, because I just don't see how UMKC improves the MVC's brand.

In short, if these are the four options, I think Valpo is the likeliest choice, and Loyola's probably the dark horse. I'd be really surprised if UMKC got the offer.

Now, here's the flip side: is Valpo better off going to the MVC, or staying in the Horizon League? The answer may seem like a no-brainer, but consider the advantages offered by the Horizon League -- it's a little more geographically compact, and Valpo gets to play in major cities (Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland) throughout the upper Midwest. Games in Terre Haute, Evansville, Springfield MO, etc., might not be as interesting to recruits. As a cautionary tale, look at Evansville, which was very strong for many years when it was in the Horizon (then the MCC), but has never risen above mediocrity since joining the Valley.

The opposite end of that argument is that the MVC is obviously a much stronger conference and could do for Valpo what joining the Horizon League did for us -- after a few tough years of adjustment, it raised the level of Valpo's program, which had stagnated in the Mid-Con. And the MVC has much more potential for multiple bids than the Horizon, which now appears to be a perennial one-bid league with Butler gone.

I'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.

[wh]

As someone who has not been in favor of moving to the MVC, call me concerned.  Not to disrespect the other schools on the list, but they are basically bottom feeders that will hurt the MVC's RPI and standing. They're in major media markets, but they might as well not be.  Nobody follows them.  The only one that would add value to MVC basketball is Valpo.  This also tells me that ml is actively looking.  No one makes a visit to your school unless you encourage them.  If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Valpo before any of the others. 

[HC]

So when Butler left they had to forfeit their share of the NCAA money from their tourney runs to the HL, would the same be asked of Valpo (far less money, but money none the less). I like the HL, but if this is a move up that makes sense financially and competitively I say go for it!

[classof2014]

I'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.

I don't see Valpo being a .500 team in league play. A majority of the time a move up is a good thing. Sometimes it doesn't seem to work out but I think it will help recruiting as players see it can be a multiple bid league and they have a team in the Final 4 this year, which most definitely will look good to see Wichita appear twice on our schedule next season and many seasons to come.

If Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League. Losing two historically elite mid-majors in Butler and possibly VU, will be it's demise. Only being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I'm on wh's side now--before you consider the MVC "so much better" than the HL, remember, they lose Creighton (wh's original point) and though I countered with "they still have Wichita State" (and that looks even better now) it makes more sense to pick off schools in the MVC we like and strengthen a league that has significant geographic advantage.  Hard to imagine the MVC without Creighton not taking a much bigger hit than the HL without Butler this year.

new slogan:  "Stay in the HL.  Because.  Just...because."

Chicago > Terre Haute
Milwaukee > Peoria...um...
Evansville == Dayton...er...
Detroit < Wichita
...well, can't win 'em all.

...wait a second...could all this realignment simply be a stationer's plot to sell more stationary?  or graphic designers' attempt to drum up new work in a down economy?

[agibson]

If Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League.

I don't know.  What was the Horizon League without Xavier, without Evansville, two of its more successful programs?  (Who figured in all four of the Horizon's first multi-bid NCAA seasons, between 1989 and 1995.)  I think there's every chance the Horizon gets back to its now and then multi-bid ways, without Butler, and even without Valpo.

I don't know what to think about the MVC.  It could well be the right move for greater basketball success - it's not entirely clear to me.  Mostly, I think I'm just settling into the Horizon League.  It's starting to feel reasonably comfortable.  Is it time to move already?

[Chairback]

It would be interesting to see attendance numbers compared to the HL.  Most of the MVC gyms are much nicer.  The ARC has to be a turnoff for the MVC officials.

If true I applaud ML for being active during the conference realignments. The Horizon league could be cherry picked by other conferences and I do not want to be stuck with teams like IPFW, IUPUI, etc. 

It's obvious with seeding we got this year that the Horizon is not highly regarded. 

[valpopal]

I would imagine the MVC would make commitment to an upgrade in facilities a condition in any negotiations, which could be a benefit of moving.

On the other hand, I know I'm getting ahead of everything, but does anyone know what kind of broadcast coverage the MVC has for its conference? I have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.

Most of the MVC gyms are much nicer.  The ARC has to be a turnoff for the MVC officials.

[agibson]

I have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.

It's true.  Compared to what's available in many (most?) conferences, HLN is _fantastic_.  It would most certainly be missed.  It would seem like a real step back to be stuck with WAKE streaming for league road games.

[agibson]

I have to admit I have been spoiled by the online streaming of all HL games.

Someone mentioned wanting MVC attendance numbers.  Those are doubtless available, even if it takes a little digging (I notice that their post-season bsakebtall wikipedia entries leave a lot to be desired compared to the Horizon League.).

What I'd be curious to see are HLN (and also WAKE streaming) viewer numbers.  Have we ever seen these?

[classof2014]

Found some rpi numbers of both conferences from this past year (minus Creighton):

MVC - 127                       Horizon - 166

Wichita St - 37                Valpo - 58
IN St - 72                       Detroit - 64
No IA - 83                      Wright St - 130
Evansville - 106               Green Bay - 160
IL St - 108                      UIC - 169
Drake -  144                    YSU - 188
Bradley - 191                   CSU - 199
So IL - 193                      Loyola - 222
MO St - 203                    Milwaukee - 307

The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL. League rpi (that is the rpi minus Creighton) is still 40 points higher, which means a nice jump for Valpo, who would've finished second, only by looking at rpi not actually if they played, in a Creightonless MVC. It obviously hurt our seeding this year too, Valpo was better than a 14 but the HL didn't support them being higher than a 14. If you combined the two leagues together to make an 18 team league, the HL would of had 6 out of the bottom 9 would have been HL teams and the worst HL team was in the 300s which is by far one of the worst teams in the country. Thus the move makes sense for Valpo on that standpoint.

[Chairback]

The only real question is how much more money will we benefit from by joining the MVC.  If its significant you make the move (if asked to join...).

[LaPorteAveApostle]

The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.

If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success.  (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.)  It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green).  This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54).  They just did it against better teams.

And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed".  That's ridiculous.  VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us.  If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12.

This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences.  Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool?  Why not just get a Y membership instead?

And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction).  Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive.

Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here.  But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going.

PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago.  Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...)

and FTR:
http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/
http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf

[isu87]

How many NCAA units does the Horizon have accumulated? (over the past 6 years?)

[agibson]

Here's conference RPI ranking, for the last ten season.  The year in which the season ended, MVC's RPI ranking, then the Horizon's.

2013 9 12
2012 8 14
2011 12 11
2010 9 14
2009 9 12
2008 8 11
2007 6 12
2006 6 15
2005 8 20
2004 11 15

(I didn't know about 2005.  Milwaukee was #20, but then it was UWGB 123, UIC 148, WSU 170, and on down from there.  http://realtimerpi.com/2004-2005/rpi_horiz_Men.html)

[a3uge]

It's obvious with seeding we got this year that the Horizon is not highly regarded. 

Might as well move to the Summit or Big Sky because they're regarded higher than the Horizon League...

[Cliston94]

The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.

If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success.  (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.)  It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green).  This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54).  They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed".  That's ridiculous.  VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us.  If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences.  Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool?  Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction).  Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here.  But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago.  Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf

Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.

[isu87]

here are the updated MVC RPI's from Warrennolan.com (minus Creighton)

Wichita State  17
Indiana State  70
UNI  75
Evansville  89
Illinois State  106
Drake  138
Bradley  177
Southern Illinois  188
Missouri State  197

[Cliston94]

I'm torn. If we get the offer, we probably have to take it -- but again, I see what's happened to Evansville and I wonder if we wouldn't be setting ourselves up for a situation where we struggle to go .500 in league play year in and year out and never get back to the NCAA Tournament. In the Horizon League, we're always going to have a credible shot to win the tournament and get the bid.

I don't see Valpo being a .500 team in league play. A majority of the time a move up is a good thing. Sometimes it doesn't seem to work out but I think it will help recruiting as players see it can be a multiple bid league and they have a team in the Final 4 this year, which most definitely will look good to see Wichita appear twice on our schedule next season and many seasons to come. If Valpo does make the jump, I think this sadly spells the beginning of the end for the Horizon League. Losing two historically elite mid-majors in Butler and possibly VU, will be it's demise. Only being 8 teams strong and Detroit your best team, not good for the Horizon.

You might not see it, but I see it very clearly. In most years, I think we'd do awfully well to go 9-9 in the MVC, with maybe a breakout season here and there in which we might go 11-7 or 12-6. The MVC is a very strong league and, unlike the Horizon League, has a lot of programs with very strong traditions. Wichita State didn't just get good this year. This program has been making noise, off and on, since the 1980s, though clearly never as much as this year. Southern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Missouri State, Illinois State, Indiana State have also all had some great teams on repeated occasions. It's been a little longer since Bradley was very good, but that team is usually still competitive. The only teams in the league I'd say the Valpo program is on a par with, or better than, on a year-in, year-out basis, are Bradley, Evansville and Drake.

Look, I'm a proud VU alumnus and a strong supporter of the Crusaders, but I'm also objective. I felt the move to the Horizon League would ultimately be a good one for our program, and it was -- because it gave us a lot of games in a lot of places where recruits would want to play, against programs that were either on our level or catchable in a few years' time. Could it be that going to the MVC will raise our program to new heights? Sure. But it's also possible that the recruits we are getting now, who are eager to play in Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Detroit, might not be as enthusiastic about playing in Evansville, Terre Haute and Peoria, and I don't think at our current level or worse that we are going to contend for conference championships or NCAA bids in the MVC. Had we been in that conference this year (taking Creighton out of the equation), we might have topped out at second, and it's not a given that second place would have gotten us a bid. (The league got two bids this year, and Creighton was the other one.) And this was, frankly, one of the best teams in VU history, which means second would have been our top-out point. We were 7-1 on the road in the HL this year. Against the MVC, going 4-5 on the road would probably be close to our high-water mark.

So those are some arguments for staying. Here's an argument for going: with Butler gone, the Horizon League has lost a lot of prestige. While I doubt any of the rest of the league will leave (as I don't see many other leagues that will be eager to pick up anybody but Valpo), it's also not going to have the level of national respect it previously had. We came into the league at a great time, and our stock has risen as a result. But with the departure of Butler, I doubt our stock is going to rise any higher than it is now, and it might even go down. We could have a rough year next year with all the seniors we lost -- and I know we've got some good talent coming up, but it's hard to see how we don't slip a notch or two, with Wright State, Detroit and Green Bay likely to be pretty solid. This might be a case of now or never. And we saw what happened when we hung around the Mid-Con too long. We finally got stale and got passed up by the other leading teams in the league, and when that happened, all the shine of our Sweet 16 run in 1998 got dull and forgotten. The same could happen if we stay in the HL, which doesn't really have any chance at nabbing a replacement for Butler that is anywhere near Butler's level.

Weighing all those arguments, I think maybe the better move is to go to the MVC, if invited. But I don't think the decision is a slam-dunk, and I think there are some fine reasons to consider sticking around.

[a3uge]

The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.

If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success.  (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.)  It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green).  This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54).  They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed".  That's ridiculous.  VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us.  If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences.  Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool?  Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction).  Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here.  But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago.  Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf

Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.

So which wonderful win did Montana have that made them more deserving of a 13 than Valpo?

[classof2014]

I think Valpo might be able to get to that level. The past two seasons were great and a lot runs on this incoming class. But I don't know if the athletic directors can pass on this chance to get into a stronger league. I think the MVC is a great fit, geographically and athletically speaking.

The Horizon is a league that might be coming into some trouble. Losing Butler the previous year and with the possibility of losing Valpo threatens the stability of the league. I think Valpo might look at if Detroit leaves, then who else is there for them to play during league play? I know Wright State had a good season and is returning everybody but I don't see them much different than what they were this year, unless they get a scorer. While CSU and GB will be better but I don't see anybody else that is all too scary. The MVC is a stronger with league with better competition and I think is a little bit more stable than the Horizon.

Possibly if there was no talk of Detroit leaving Valpo would choose to stay but the possibility of losing another marquis matchup really hurts. While if they went to the MVC there would be multiple games I would circle on my schedule.

[bbtds]

The only real question is how much more money will we benefit from by joining the MVC.  If its significant you make the move (if asked to join...).

Isn't the biggest money that Valpo will be leaving behind be Butler's money from 2 Final Fours. Most of this money was left behind by Butler to the Horizon League. The counter weight to that is how much money Wichita State brings to the MVC with their Final Four this year combined with the money the MVC brings in with multiple bids to the Big Dance over the last few years. It's got to be close but the Butler/HL money maybe slightly more. Will the move to the MVC be worth the difference in money?

Also there will be a significant exit fee from the HL for Valpo. Butler was able to negotiate a much lower exit fee because they were already leaving behind a lot of money to the HL. I'm sure LeCrone and the HL will hold Valpo to every penny of that exit fee. Also remember that the HL decided that if Butler stayed in the HL this year that BU wouldn't be eligible for any HL championships. I'm sure the same would be true for Valpo unless the move is made at the end of June 2013.

Everybody ready themselves. We could have a conference change this summer.