Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[FWalum]

The problem for Valpo is that they have major disadvantages compared to the other schools under consideration. The school is small, so it's not like they can just raise student seg fees to cover the costs of moving up conferences. The facilities are poor - sharing the basketball practice court hurts, and the ARC is a pig compared to any building in the MVC.  The area is small as well, with not much room for growth. At most other HL schools - MKE, CSU, Detroit, UIC - a prolonged period of success can grow the attendance at any of them two or three times what it has been at. Valpo has sustained several periods of prolonged success, and it can't even sell out the ARC for a conference championship game.  It's the advantage of being a big state school in a big city - if you're in a good conference or you're winning a lot, people care about you more - that translates into a bigger boost in big cities.  The NWI area just doesn't have the population to support an MVC program long-term.

I am a little surprised by your analysis.  Let's look at your disadvantages one by one.  Valpo is small, but would not be the smallest school in the MVC.  That distinction goes to Evansville which is about 1000 students smaller than VU. Quite frankly Drake and Bradley are no giants either.  I really don't see the fees as being a problem. You talk about our small area, but I think there is plenty of room for growth as part of the official Chicago MSA, Valparaiso has grown at about a 12% clip over the last 25 years and even if you just take the NW Indiana area it compares very favorably with the areas of many of the MVC schools and is larger than quite a few.  As you have mentioned we are in a time of sustained success and becoming a bigger fish in a small pond is often more favorable than being a small fish in a big pond.  Attendance in big cities is not a given, in the conversation on the problems with the UCLA job it was lamented about the difficulties of getting people to come out for games.  Competing for fans against professional teams when you are Detroit, UIC or CSU is not an easy thing to do.  I really don't see an attendance problem at VU if the schedule is upgraded.  Lets face it, attendance in the league and the tournament was down because or the "no Butler" effect.  Facilities would most likely be the main issue and I am sure some kind of assurances would have to be given in regards to facilities improvements.  I think you would have to agree that Valpo is currently the most recognized of the HL schools. What other HL school has a major ad campaign being run by a major company?  Unilever must have thought that Valpo had some brand recognition....

[isu87]

another scenario that very well may play out, what if all 3 Horizon league schools are asked to join the MVC? Valpo, UI-C, and Loyola. Do all 3 agree to this? It may very well happen. The Horizon League didn't do anything when Butler left. They sit at 9 schools and now are on the verge of being raided. I don't know that the MVC wants to sit at 9 and risk losing more before adding.

So who knows? Will the MVC add 1, or 3?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

not instead toward a "Welcome Center" that provides only limited exposure.

you know, now that you mention it, that is kind of the equivalent of an investment in newspapers in an internet age.

(Jasper, Lake, LaPorte, Newton, and Porter Counties)

wow...Jasper but not Starke? ...because it's larger and closer?  oh wait
(In all seriousness, though, there's nearly 800K in Lake-Porter-LaPorte alone...adding Jasper-Newton-Starke doesn't add even 10% to that total.)

Since 97% of the thinking here is "what's good for men's basketball?" I would like to renew my complaint that we should have different conferences for revenue and non-revenue sports.  Here's my new slogan:

THE NRC (non-revenue conference):  "Because we shouldn't put the swim teams on a stanky Greyhound to Wichita simply because our men's basketball teams should play each other."

(And think how much cooler college football and basketball could become with stuff like relegation, Eurosoccer-style.  But that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

[wh]

another scenario that very well may play out, what if all 3 Horizon league schools are asked to join the MVC? Valpo, UI-C, and Loyola. Do all 3 agree to this? It may very well happen. The Horizon League didn't do anything when Butler left. They sit at 9 schools and now are on the verge of being raided. I don't know that the MVC wants to sit at 9 and risk losing more before adding.

So who knows? Will the MVC add 1, or 3?

As someone already mentioned early in this thread, it would be nearly impossible to say no to a 3-fer with Loyola and UIC.  Instead of being isolated in a far corner of the MVC footprint, we would be part of a strong "Chicago connection," complete with travel partners, close home and home games, etc.  Also, if Loyola and UIC defected, the HL would be left with only 7 schools and would lose all its leverage essentially over night for adding schools with quality athletic programs.  If Loyola, UIC and Valpo defected as one group the HL would immediately go into survival mode.   

[classof2014]

I agree. I think best case scenario is that UIC and Loyola tag along, I know that both basketball programs aren't too good but it would be nice to keep the Chicago teams close. Close drive from Valpo and makes travelling a little easier on the teams. Even though the only truly far places are Springfield and Wichita.


The perfect storm seems to be brewing to bring down the HL. If the three teams leave this will leave only 6, and no quality teams will no longer consider the Horizon. I could see the Horizon welcoming low-level teams. IUPUI, IPFW, UMKC, Chicago State, etc... could be looking at the possibility of becoming new members if that happens. The Horizon League could very well turn into the Summit League Jr.

[HC]

The welcome center was funded by 1 donor and that donation was strictly for a welcome center on campus. C'mon man 

[valpotx]

If we were to be offered and accept an MVC slot, I would be just fine with taking UIC/Loyola with us.  Heck, I would prefer if it were Loyola and Detroit, so that the conference would have 6 private schools, and 6 public.  I wouldn't mind UIC, which would be 5 private/7 public, but the MVC doesn't seem to want two schools in one city.  As long as we end up in the conference adding teams, I will be happy.  Whether that is us poaching some schools from somewhere else without losing anyone, or us joining the MVC.

[FWalum]

This is why I am not sure that the "wait and see" attitude that LeCrone seemed to espouse was the correct attitude.  Once the Catholic 7 split off it might have been wise to strongly go after the higher level OVC schools.  If the MVC would make an offer to UIC, Loyola and VU I think we would all be fools not to go.  We don't want to get stuck in a conference adding teams just to survive, it would be like the old Mid-Con all over again and look how long it took for us to recoup from that situation.

I am really sure that Evansville would love to have us in the MVC.  As I have said before, the previous administration was looking at Valpo as one of their main admissions competitors.

[classof2014]

According to Michael Osipoff, Athletic Director Mark La Barbera neither confirmed nor denied that the MVC was visiting Valpo this week. Which typically means that the MVC is visiting Valpo this week and that La Barbera is interested in the move to the MVC.

[valpotx]

If we did move to the MVC, does that keep Bryce around a few years longer?  I do like that our AD is watching out for Valpo, as the previous one basically gave the school the shaft for his last decade in the position, in trying to help out his Mid-Con Commissioner son....

[lowposter]

This is probably a crazy idea....but how about adding VU, Loyola, and Detroit (as previously recommended) and then having 2 divisions.  One would be the "Private Universities" with VU, LU, UDM, Bradley, Evansville, and Drake.  That works out pretty well geographically also. 

An opportunity to move up to the Valley would be an excellent opportunity.  The HL is on borrowed time since Butler left.  It would take awhile for VU to move up to the upper level in basketball, but there is no reason why the recruiting wouldnt ramp up. 

lowposter

[classof2014]

I think it could very well be that La Barbera realizes in order to keep Drew he needs to put him in the best atmosphere possible. Right now for Valpo that's the MVC. Drew looks like he could become a top level mid-major coach and a top level mid-major coach deserves a top level mid-major conference. Right now the Horizon League is looking to be a run-of-the-mill mid-major conference.

This is probably a crazy idea....but how about adding VU, Loyola, and Detroit (as previously recommended) and then having 2 divisions.  One would be the "Private Universities" with VU, LU, UDM, Bradley, Evansville, and Drake.  That works out pretty well geographically also.

Good idea but I have heard nothing about Detroit coming over. Like you said it is a crazy idea, sounds cool but crazy.

[Chairback]

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley

[crusaderjoe]

The welcome center was funded by 1 donor and that donation was strictly for a welcome center on campus. C'mon man 

Your missing the point.  Substantial ARC upgrades are currently being funded by zero donors.

It's time to put the ARC at the top of the list with respect to campus projects.  When Villanova, a private, non FBS school reached out to the ACC, VU should have taken that as a sign that the dominoes were getting ready to fall and that mid-majors would be impacted in the future. And here we are now.

We should have had more emphasis on prioritizing facility improvements for basketball.  You're not going to fight me on that point, are you?

[crusadermoe]

The combo transfer of Valpo along with Loyola and/or UIC would make it a great move.   That brings the Chicago connection.    Adding Chicago partners would easily tip the scales to our joining the MVC.  The short-term NCAA $ could favor HL due to Butler, but you have to think that over a 10-year period, there will be more $ from a more solid deeper MVC league. 
Loyola actually has a nice "name" dating back into the 60s and matches up well with Bradley and Evansville identities.  UIC is less attractive but adds a 3rd Chicago market and good facilities.

[a3uge]

The MVC might think the Dakota schools and ORU are too far out of the way geographically.

I think the MVC probably would have at least looked at Belmont and Murray State over Valpo, UIC, Loyola, and definitely UMKC. We're getting angry for not signing Belmont, Murray State, or Evansville to the Horizon, but really, it seems like Murray Sate, Belmont, and Evansville don't want to go anywhere. I think the Horizon League truly tried to replace Butler with a decent school. How do we know they didn't extend Belmont a bid? The Horizon doesn't have much leverage over the MVC, so I would assume Belmont would go to the MVC over the Horizon. I'm guessing paying consecutive years of conference forfeit fees isn't in Belmont's best interest. As for Murray State... I'm not sure what's going on with them. Does the MVC not want them because they're a public university? It seems like the Horizon would be a good fit for them, but maybe they're waiting for an invite to the MVC, and we're all at a dead-lock because they definitely aren't going to join the Horizon if their top team leaves. Maybe Belmont and Murray State are going to wait a year and let the dust settle before jumping ship to the Horizon/MVC. I think the MVC would be dumb not to add both those schools if it meant 12 members.

I read on one of those links that UMKC probably are getting a visit so their commissioner can show them that they could work up to being a MVC school. They fit well with the geographical footprint... but they have a crappy program.

If the MVC isn't interested ORU/Dakotas due to geography, and can't get Belmont/Murray State for awhile, I think Valpo might be the most logical option to replace Creighton until Belmont and Murray State can come over. Playing with 9 sucks, and if you can replace them with a school with some recognition, and a school that doesn't hurt them in RPI, there's not much of a drawback. Sure, it isn't the juicy 'get' they want, but it won't be a travesty to them either. It would be a travesty to replace Creighton with UMKC.

One thing I like about the MVC is that just about every school gets into the 0-100 RPI range every four years. There's no perennial bottom feeders like we have in the Horizon. Loyola, UIC, and YSU all haven't broken the 0-100 RPI range in maybe 10 years, UWGB hasn't really done anything either, and UWM managed to turn their program from perennial contenders to playing in the Klotsche Center. The MVC's least successful (basketball) school is Evansville... and wasn't the Horizon looking to add them?

Last thought: I think the Horizon League definitely has a backup plan if Detroit leaves (Oakland), but probably has a much less attractive backup plan if Loyola/Valpo leaves. I would imagine IUPUI and IPFW would receive invites if that happens. If the MVC poaches from the HL, the HL will poach from the Summit. Not sure who the Summit poaches from.

[agibson]

Not sure who the Summit poaches from.

Great West and non-D1?

[justducky]

Here is a different view. Why does the MVC want to grow? Because they fear being raided. Why would we even consider leaving if we thought the HL were a stablle organization? So we have two upper mid-major conferences who both think that they either have to grow or die and then it may be every man for himself.

So could we insure some stability for a 9 team HL and a 9 team MVC? Maybe help each other with OOC scheduling to improve at large resumes? Could something be arranged where the last two weekends of the year are set aside by everyone with the designation "opponents to be named later" then be assigned on maybe Dec 1 with 4 games against the other conferences equivalent strength teams?  Don't ask me for details, I just thought I would float this then hunker down to avoid the rain of flack.

Fire Away!

[a3uge]

FWIW



6 years is when we joined the Horizon.
4 years is a full recruiting class.

Valpo would obviously be the best of the 4 mentioned in the KC article. We'd fit smack dab in the middle of the MVC.

Belmont, Murray State would be great gets for the MVC.

ORU is probably comparable to Valpo, but their location is far away.

[historyman]

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Wichita,+KS&daddr=Des+Moines,+IA+to:Cedar+Falls,+IA+to:Springfield,+MO+to:Peoria,+IL+to:Normal,+IL+to:Evansville,+IN+to:Terre+Haute,+IN+to:Carbondale,+IL&hl=en&sll=39.876019,-92.351074&sspn=10.551404,16.633301&geocode=FTkWPwId0cQy-iktGH_Satu6hzE-PdN0v9WWkw%3BFSHGegIdbqNr-innHmHBpJnuhzGy5JEmUSgAcQ%3BFfMHiQIdfGV9-ilHE8iBUVXlhzHpMQDB4ier8g%3BFX3DNwId9Xhw-ik_mMhF92LPhzGgDWkes2z9aw%3BFZHvbAIdBvuo-imteVhTXFkKiDHbgH1rMvT7yg%3BFZsyagIdWRyy-il7gaCOHnELiDHA3apu7ztFzA%3BFWdmQwIdbsXH-iktd1YxE9VxiDGdySoROUkutQ%3BFc82WgIdayvK-inv3JGKR2VtiDGI7-NfZ6g_gA%3BFSmsPwIdEqmu-ilzVmUrpQ53iDGzF88P0Wtk_g&oq=Carbondale&mra=ls&t=m&z=6


Ignore the blue lines and just look at where the MVC cities are. It looks to me that Tulsa (ORU), Nashville (Belmont) and Murray, KY (south of Carbondale & Evansville in the lower part of Western KY near the Tenn line) are not any more geographically out of the way than Chicago and Valpo.

As far as the Dakotas, Vermillion, SD (USD) is not way out of the MVC foot print being 236 miles from Des Moines (Drake) just 100 miles or so from Omaha. But Brookings, SD (SDSU) and Fargo, ND (NDSU) are way out of the MVC foot print.

[HC]

A upgrade would be great, and I think you will be very happy in the near future. All I'm saying is they can't take money given specifically for project A and use it on the ARC.

[usc4valpo]

The MVC is an obvious step up from the HL.

If RPI were the be-all and end-all measure of conference success. (Ask the MWC how that looks/feels right about now.) It's not, and the entire difference between the two can be pretty much chalked up to OOC scheduling (MWC 5th toughest, HL 29th with all its Purdue Cals and Bowlings Green). This explains it all when you consider that their OOC record without Creighton (64-43) is only 7 games better than ours (61-54). They just did it against better teams. And let's stop with "the HL didn't support a better than a 14 seed". That's ridiculous. VU got screwed because we got screwed, not because the HL couldn't carry enough water for us. If it were true that conferences affected seeding, then the Summit (19th) couldn't/shouldn't have gotten SDSU a 13, and Oregon should leave the PAC for a better conference because it only got them a 12. This is going from 12th to 9th or maybe 10th in terms of conferences. Is it really worth uprooting the kids and upsetting the neighbors and packing up all our stuff just to move into pretty much the same house in a distant neighborhood just to have a pool? Why not just get a Y membership instead? And again, we'd be playing in towns instead of cities...I've been to Northern Iowa (both the school and the generic cardinal direction). Let's just say playing MVC 'cities' would be like an entire conference of Youngstown States, just not as fun nor convenient a drive. Make Bradley or ISU and Evansville an offer to come over here. But don't condemn kids to have to attempt to forge rivalries with the Fighting Salukis now that we finally have some good rivalries going. PS--as far as money, don't forget to calculate how much more you will be spending by making the drive to Wichita rather than Chicago. Whatever savings will burn up in fuel costs (a little too easily, these days...) and FTR: http://www.mvc-sports.com/television/default/ http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf

Sorry, but VU didn't get screwed on seeding. We maybe could have been a 13 at absolute best, but I figured 14 was what we'd get, and that's what we got. Remember, we lost to Nebraska and Loyola, and our only win of any kind of national note all season was the win at Murray State. I do agree, however, with your point that it wasn't necessarily due to the Horizon being weak. Detroit and Wright State had pretty solid seasons. And I generally agree with your reasons as to why the HL is to be preferred to the MVC.

So which wonderful win did Montana have that made them more deserving of a 13 than Valpo?

I'd say its wins over Weber State were on a par with our win at Murray, and Montana had no losses that were as bad as losing at home to Loyola. Taking an objective view, if it came down between Montana and Valpo for a 13-seed, I'd say Montana ought to have gotten it. The teams that really got screwed on seeding were Oregon, Cal and Mississippi.

Thank you!  It is about time someone agrees that the Pac10 is not as bad as their seeding.  Oregon IMO had a heckuva tournament.

[usc4valpo]

If we did move to the MVC, does that keep Bryce around a few years longer? I do like that our AD is watching out for Valpo, as the previous one basically gave the school the shaft for his last decade in the position, in trying to help out his Mid-Con Commissioner son....

This insight is sheer brilliance.  I am so happy someone said this.  Jon Steinbrecher was a smoozer.

[StlVUFan]

This whole topic on the grand scale gives me hives, but that's old news   I defer to PantherU and others who are much more well informed than I am on who would be a good fit where, but I can't help wondering how many of these schools that are looking to move up are engaging in shallow analysis of their needs.  There just seems to be *so* many schools looking to upgrade that it seems likely some of them are just looking at short-term gains for their basketball teams and ignoring the implications on all other aspects of their university's purpose for being.

As for the attractiveness of Loyola and UIC because of the Chicago market, I find that a little confusing because the Chicago market couldn't care less about UIC and Loyola.  The media barely covers them (and why should they when they have plenty to talk about with Northwestern never receiving an NCAA bid and DePaul playing in an awkward venue - two power conference teams who excel in futility).  Laurence Holmes will have Howard Moore or Porter Moser on his show, and the Tribune will run stories about 1963, but on a regular basis what you get is a 2-paragraph preview of each Flames or Ramblers game by a Trib guy who spent 5 minutes composing it.  After the game, the next day, you get a Sports Xchange writeup which reads like an AP writeup.  The coverage of the HL in Chicago is beyond abysmal.

On the other hand, to take the totally self-centered approach, most MVC schools are a lot closer to my home than HL schools are, and the tourney is in St. Louis on a neutral court.  I would be ecstatic to be able to watch an entire tournament in person again.

Sorry I can't contribute objectively to this discussion, it's an important one to have.  I'm still getting used to the Horizon League and I'm beginning to get to know fans from other HL teams.  I'm not ready to get another divorce

[usc4valpo]

A upgrade would be great, and I think you will be very happy in the near future. All I'm saying is they can't take money given specifically for project A and use it on the ARC.

I will be upset if Valpo get a bid to the MVC and rejects it.  This conference has great history and cities that love college basketball. This would be a wonderful opportunity for Valparaiso University to expand in many ways.

Chicago right now is a horrible college basketball town.  DePaul, supposedly the Chicago college hoop flagship team, blows.  Fan apathy is low at all schools. I also would be surprised and it would be a risk if the MVC takes Loyola and UIC.

That being said, it's time to expand and clean up the ARC.