Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[historyman]

Sorry I can't contribute objectively to this discussion, it's an important one to have.  I'm still getting used to the Horizon League and I'm beginning to get to know fans from other HL teams.  I'm not ready to get another divorce

Get used to it. If Valpo is invited to the MVC it will probably be only for 8 to 10 years before another Midwest mid-major conference is created that wants Valpo and that Valpo wants to be in. It seems some what like the old Mid-Con when teams from Wisconsin to Alabama to Louisiana to Oklahoma to Utah to Connecticut to western New York and places in between were in the conference. It's just that now the changes happen more rapidly and in complete strokes of changes but seem mostly concentrated in the "Greater" midwest area. 

[vu72]

I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.

[bbtds]

I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.

All of the teams? Including T&F, Tennis, Swimming & Diving, etc.?

[justducky]

How many NCAA units does the Horizon have accumulated? (over the past 6 years?)

I will refer everyone back to the NCAA Tournament Split thread of March 2011. At that time Butler was in the sweet 16 and our units were at 19 (I think). So the answer is yes, any team that would decide to jump could be leaving wheelbarrows full of money behind to the Horizon League.

Isn't the biggest money that Valpo will be leaving behind be Butler's money from 2 Final Fours. Most of this money was left behind by Butler to the Horizon League.

Also there will be a significant exit fee from the HL for Valpo.

On top of all this lost revenue and exit fees we have now determined that the average additional one way mileage to MVC schools over HL schools is about 133 miles. You folks can do the math any way you like but it is easy to see where a jump to a Creighton-less and only slightly better future basketball conference does have some downside.

[FWalum]

On top of all this lost revenue and exit fees we have now determined that the average additional one way mileage to MVC schools over HL schools is about 133 miles. You folks can do the math any way you like but it is easy to see where a jump to a Creighton-less and only slightly better future basketball conference does have some downside.

If the HL would go out and get one of the top two in the OVC then I would agree with you.  As I stated before, an improved HL is probably the best of both worlds, but if the HL gets raided by the MVC or another conference then I think we will only have slim pickens coming from the likes of the Summit League to fill the gaps.  There would also most likely be some negotiation with the MVC as to how their NCAA money gets distributed and how an incoming school would participate.  This article gives you an Idea as to the MVC's current units and how many they would have starting next year. http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/  In the short run staying in a status quo HL might be better, but I think the long run favors even a Creighton-less MVC if we would switch conferences.

[crusaderjoe]

The increased mileage analysis is also dependent upon context. Look, whether we like to admit it or not, part of conference affiliation is not just athletic, but it is also academic.  I think VU is finally realizing the importance of this concept at the D-I level as an institution.  University presidents prefer to align themselves with like-minded, associate peer institutions in general.  The Big Ten exercises this concept (AAU), the A-10 exercises this concept (largely private), the C-7 exercised this concept (all private and near all Catholic), and to some extent so does the MVC and the HL (decent public/private mix).  However, if LUC moves to the MVC or UDM moves to the A-10, the disparity in this respect increases to VU's detriment.  If this matters to Valpo, while increased travel might affect athletics, a 133 mile travel differential will be negligible at best juxtaposed against consideration, IMO.

[valpotx]

What about a Wichita State-less MVC as well?  Their board is now talking about rumors of the MWC and Old Big East/America 12/whatever possibly wanting them.  It could just be them talking like Detroit fans were about the Catholic 7 inviting them though 

[zvillehaze]

I would think, given the added revenue created by being in the Valley, even in our own attendance (re: watching Wichita State vs. Chicago State), that we could possibly fly our teams to Wichita versus driving 12 hours one way.

All of the teams? Including T&F, Tennis, Swimming & Diving, etc.?

Missouri State and Wichita State are the obvious outliers for Valpo.  Travel to the other 7 schools is very similar to what Valpo has in the Horizon.  (Avg. to those 7 is 266 miles, vs. the 212 avg. for Valpo to the 8 Horizon schools).

I've raised this before in other threads, but the travel doesn't necessarily impact all programs.  Of 16 sports sponsored by the MVC, just over half (MBB, WBB, baseball, softball, tennis-M, tennis-W, soccer-M, soccer-W and Volleyball) play a regular season conference schedule.  Only basketball plays each team twice, so in the other sports this means 4 or 5 (or less based on participation) road trips for conference games.  And as I stated earlier, unless you have to go to Missouri State or Wichita, the travel shouldn't be much different than the Horizon.

For the other sports (CC-M, CC-W, Golf-M, Golf-W, Swimming-W, T&F-M and T&F-W), teams don't play a regular season conference schedule.  They compete regionally in multi-team invitational meets and then compete in a conference championship.  Similar to what currently happens in the Horizon.  (On a side note, the MVC does not sponsor men's swimming and diving ... Missouri State competes in the MAC).

Will travel costs increase?  Yes.  But assuming that every team will incur huge increases is not exactly true.  As vu72 points out, the decision may hinge on whether revenue (attendance, tournament shares, TV) will increase enough to cover the increase in travel costs.

[78crusader]

I wonder if some VU old-timers on occasion long for the days of the old Indiana Collegiate Conference:  VU, Butler, Wabash, DePauw, St. Joseph's, Ball State, and Indiana State.  I'm one of them. 

I would be willing to bet that someone at VU, at some level, has at some point raised the idea of junking Division I athletics and returning to D3 competition.   That way we could at least join up with a conference comprised entirely of like-minded academic institutions, and do away with discussions that center on whether a 233-mile one-way trip to play a softball game is a good thing for our student-athletes.

Paul

[LaPorteAveApostle]

What about a Wichita State-less MVC as well?

That's fine with me too--they're the SUU of the MVC   Obviously they are very good, but losing them is balanced by the lack of travel and increased ability to go in and win (although if UMKC comes in--ewww--then that's a really bad trade).

Dave 2010 said

My money would be on the WAC and Summit fighting for programs until one finally gives up the ghost with the WAC and western Summit teams in one league and the eastern Summit teams looking at the HL or OVC.

I'll tell you why this won't happen--each conference has a golden ticket to the Dance.  Combining conferences will cause one of these magical tickets to disappear (which is basically what only the power conferences want anyway).  What you have described regarding realignment is similar to a boat sinking--in such cases, people aren't consolidating lifeboats--but using what they have and maximizing their fit. The programs in the Summit, WAC, etc. might well be content to be the "yankees of the mid-con" as we were for so long.  The "big fish in a small pond" theory.

This is in turn why a 14-team conference won't happen--to say nothing of reduced income when divided 14 rather than by 10 ways--for the same reason the NHLPA was not a fan of the realignment in which case 14 teams compete for 8 spots in the west and 16 for 8 in the east.  Being a bigger conference doesn't get you a second bid automatically--being good does.

[valpotx]

I am sure it has as well, and then just like on here when setshot brings up the topic, it is probably quickly laughed off  .  No one outside of the midwest would hear of Valpo anymore, which would lead to reduced applications for enrollment.  Since the midwest is losing population to the south, it would be completely counter-productive to our stated goal of increasing enrollment.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

What would your dad say?  'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:'  please add/subtract improve

Pros
1)  Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2)  Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3)  Increased attendance both home and away

Cons
1)  Costs a lot of money.  (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2)  Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3)  Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4)  Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)

Basically a wash
1)  The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2)  Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL? 

[jimdandy]

I don't understand the idea that we would increase attendance
Do you really think people are chomping at the bit to see us play Ind st or any of these other schools?
No way
Butler was our last chance of having a "rival" and to get the stands packed

[agibson]

[Hmm.. I forgot to hit "post" on this.  I'll do it blindly, at risk of it being horribly out of context after the last eight replies.]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/31/wichita-states-shocking-run-to-final-four-produces-financial-windfall-for-missouri-valley-conference/ 

A nice, brief, piece.

For the 2012-13 fiscal year, where the MVC was on 13 units, by my calculation the Horizon League was on 22 units (thanks mostly to Butler's two national runner-up runs).  Worth, in this fiscal year, about $4.6M to the conference using the figures from the Forbes piece.

For next fiscal year, based on the addition of this year's results, the MVC will go up to 16 (or 17), and the Horizon will go down to 19.

I've forgotten the formula, but I think it's known how the Horizon League divides the NCAA money?

Do we know how the MVC does it?

(And, indeed, exceptions might be made when new teams enter...)

[vu72]

I've got to think there is a lot more to it than just the NCAA money.  Corporate sponsors are most likely much better in the Valley and who knows about there tv deal.  Their title game is on CBS as an example.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't understand the idea that we would increase attendance

If for no other reason than that a lot of these teams travel well (Bradley for one).  Plus average attendance is much higher in the MVC. 

Home attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example.  And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.

[crusaderjoe]

What would your dad say?  'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:'  please add/subtract improve

Pros
1)  Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2)  Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3)  Increased attendance both home and away

Cons
1)  Costs a lot of money.  (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2)  Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3)  Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4)  Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)

Basically a wash
1)  The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2)  Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL? 

Pro 4)  Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.

Con 5)  Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel. 

is an average trip being 75% longer really a wash?

[historyman]

Home attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example.  And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.

I totally agree. There is a lot more desire to see a "good" Indiana State team than a "fair to middling" Green Bay or Wright State team. Probably a "poor" ISU team doesn't draw well and a "fair to middling" ISU team slightly better than a Green Bay or Wright State of the same quality draws.

I think Evansville would draw even better than ISU due to their history with Valpo.

[justducky]

I've got to think there is a lot more to it than just the NCAA money.  Corporate sponsors are most likely much better in the Valley and who knows about there tv deal.  Their title game is on CBS as an example.

I will not address this because of my total ignorance but this might be important and somebody should look at putting some numbers to it.

Home attendance will be higher because better teams will be coming--and I do think ISU would draw more local interest than UIC or WSU, for example.  And some of the rivalries will simply be rekindled from AMCU/MCC days, which is nice.

I will take a stab at this question. Lets say that average conference game attendance is increased by an additional 600 fans if we were added as a 10'th MVC team.(a high side estimate, but may be doable) 600 fans x 9 games= 5400 extra tickets x maybe $20.00 average ticket price= $108,000 in additional mens basketball revenue. I think most of us would agree that the increase in total (all sports) revenue could at best be not much higher than say $140,000. I know nothing about charter bus rates so just how far in extra mileage is that going to take us?

There are a lot of numbers to crunch before a decision is made but the more I look at this the more I believe that the MVC would have to be far more generous to us than they think they should have to be.

[vu72]

What would your dad say?  'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:'  please add/subtract improve

Pros
1)  Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2)  Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3)  Increased attendance both home and away

Cons
1)  Costs a lot of money.  (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2)  Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3)  Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4)  Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)

Basically a wash
1)  The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2)  Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL? 

Pro 4)  Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.

Con 5)  Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel. 

This, I don't understand at all.  The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else.  Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo.  I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

[classof2014]

Agreed. I know in my case I will be circling a few games on my schedule that I will be looking forward too. Last year the only one that I was looking forward to was Detroit. While in the MVC there will be 3 or 4. This will bring in increased cash flow as well. In both men's and women's basketball games, which is where they make most of their money from.

[crusaderjoe]

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel.

is an average trip being 75% longer really a wash?

Relative to what?  The HL?  Maybe, maybe not.  VU D-I conference history?  Absolutely. 

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Alabama, Louisiana, Central Connecticut, or Southern Utah anymore."

[crusaderjoe]

What would your dad say?  'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:'  please add/subtract improve

Pros
1)  Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2)  Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3)  Increased attendance both home and away

Cons
1)  Costs a lot of money.  (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2)  Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3)  Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4)  Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)

Basically a wash
1)  The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2)  Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL? 

Pro 4)  Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.

Con 5)  Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel. 

This, I don't understand at all.  The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else.  Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo.  I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

And if schools move up to FBS via the MAC?  Or a new FBS conference emerges out west?  Sun Belt?  Think outside the box.

[classof2014]

Crunched Some of the numbers and for win percentage and NCAA appearances for the Creightonless MVC and the Butlerless Horizon. Both teams were on top of there league and they both left. For those still remaining on the edge or don't see the MVC being that great well here ya go... (These numbers are since the 07-08 season, first year Valpo was in the Horizon)

There have been 4 other MVC teams to make the tournament and have won 7 games (including Wichita State's current run) and only have lost 5. While since the 07-08 the Horizon has only sent 3 other teams to the tourney and 2 have been since Butler was gone, and have only won a single game (CSU) and losing the other 3.

The Horizon's 3 worst teams in that time span: UIC 39%, Loyola 42%, and YSU 36%, is worse than the MVC's worst team from during that span, Southern Illinois at 43%. The MVC also has 7 teams with a .500 plus winning percentage compared to the Horizon's 5 teams. The MVC has had a 54% win percentage compared to a 49% win percentage for the Horizon in that same time span.

I'm hoping Valpo is offered the chance to go to the MVC, because based off of those numbers it's a no brainer to me. Yes, it is a little more travelling an in smaller cities but all-in-all it will be much more beneficial to the program.