Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[FWalum]

What would your dad say?  'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:'  please add/subtract improve

Pros
1)  Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition
2)  Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS)
3)  Increased attendance both home and away

Cons
1)  Costs a lot of money.  (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget)
2)  Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports?
3)  Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases
4)  Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.)

Basically a wash
1)  The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities
2)  Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the  #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL? 

Pro 4)  Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades.

Con 5)  Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football.

Wash 3)  Geography/Travel. 

This, I don't understand at all.  The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else.  Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo.  I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

And if schools move up to FBS via the MAC?  Or a new FBS conference emerges out west?  Sun Belt?  Think outside the box.

Pro 5) talked to one of my sports management friends today who has contacts in both conferences and was told that MVC television deal much better than HL.

[classof2014]

Pro 5) talked to one of my sports management friends today who has contacts in both conferences and was told that MVC television deal much better than HL.

Even though I do love the Horizon League Network that streams all the games online for free. Having the games on television on a network people watch, is great publicity for the team. If most of the home games are on Comcast Sports Net or something similar, it bodes much better than all the games being on the internet and most people have no idea that they are going on.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

it bodes much better than all the games being on the internet and most people have no idea that they are going on.

I dunno...the people that are the target market know.  i have a hard time imagining a bar in (say) South Bend putting on the Southern Illinois-Missouri State game, no matter what time of day.

Also, while I suppose the MVC has a better TV deal overall, and their final was on CBS, all previous rounds were all online, on their own MVC-TV.  At least our semis were on the U.

http://www.mvc-sports.com/media/2012-13/tv/2012-13TV_FullPageAd_1.pdf
While there are a lot more games on (mostly FOX), there are fewer on the ESPN family (not that that's a bad thing necessarily), just saying.

It looks like we'd be watching the internet a lot anyways, still.

Relative to what?  The HL?  Maybe, maybe not.  VU D-I conference history?  Absolutely. 

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Alabama, Louisiana, Central Connecticut, or Southern Utah anymore."

Kind of blown away that while we're comparing the HL and the MVC you brought in the Mid-Con...seriously?  That's like watching the Romney-Obama debate and complaining about John Kerry's performance.  Or James Stockdale's, if you're a junkie.

Let's not forget that two of the main criteria Mark LaBarbara cited with the move to the HL was 1) minimizing travel time for student-athletes (emphasis added because too often forgotten) and 2) playing in cities with high concentrations of VU alumni.

So a move to the MVC means either a) he wasn't really serious about those reasons in the first place or b) it really is all about the almighty dollar trumping everything else but c) we will lose a lot of those dollars in such a move anyway.

So maybe it is all about keeping Bryce happy, which, in the end, is good enough for me.

[classof2014]

I dunno...the people that are the target market know.  i have a hard time imagining a bar in (say) South Bend putting on the Southern Illinois-Missouri State game, no matter what time of day.

Chances are a bar in South Bend would not have that game on as one of their big games of the night but to the guy sitting at home, watching tv, looking for a good game on tv, and they come across an MVC game that is close with 10 minutes left, they'll be likely to stop and watch. I know that's what I do, channel surf for a good game, even though I might not have a rooting interest in it. I know not every game will be on tv but there will definitely be more on tv than there were with the Horizon. Yes, the online system for the Horizon is wonderful and free but to the college basketball fan looking for a good game on tv, they didn't have the chance to stop at a Horizon game because it wasn't on tv to start with. Being on tv will bring in more money and publicity than the HLN ever did, it also might help recruiting as well, when kids can just turn the tv on and see Valpo, while if they were looking at going to a Horizon team they wouldn't be able to see them.

[wh]

Realignment approaching for the Horizon League and Missouri Valley

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2013/4/1/4170684/realignment-approaching-for-the-horizon-league-and-missouri-valley

[usc4valpo]

What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?

Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.

This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision.  Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time.  Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.

[crusaderjoe]

**********
Let's not forget that two of the main criteria Mark LaBarbara cited with the move to the HL was 1) minimizing travel time for student-athletes (emphasis added because too often forgotten) and 2) playing in cities with high concentrations of VU alumni.

So a move to the MVC means either a) he wasn't really serious about those reasons in the first place or b) it really is all about the almighty dollar trumping everything else but c) we will lose a lot of those dollars in such a move anyway.

So maybe it is all about keeping Bryce happy, which, in the end, is good enough for me.
[/quote]

**********

LAA, not sure I understand why you're so floored by considering past conference history in this analysis.  Is the discussion of reviving conference relationships with Missouri State or Northern Iowa from the AMCU-8 irrelevant too?  I say no.

I guess ML is really going to be hamstrung if we stay in the Horizon League since we'll have to nix the admission of schools like Belmont, Murray, Drexel, or any others that are "outside" of the current geographical footprint because travel is likely to increase in order to get to 12 quality additions.  Note that the distance between Drexel and VU is about the same as it is between Wichita and VU.  There's only a 330 mile difference between a trip from VU to Belmont and a trip from VU to WSU.  We're not talking about extremely large distances here, particularly if you factor in past trips to SUU or Troy State.

If an announcement were made today that Drexel and Belmont were joining the HL, would anyone take this as bad news at this point?  I doubt it. Sure, I bet some here would say that we should circle back and explore the MVC because it is more aligned with our current geographic footprint, but yet the length of the longest road trip (Drexel) would be nearly identical to the length of the longest road trip in the MVC (WSU).  So why are we getting nervous about traveling to Wichita and having minimal increased travel?  If the HL expands with quality additions, travel is likely to increase anyway.  I'm telling you, this distance thing is all relative between the HL and MVC.

In my mind, all things considered, travel and geography are a wash.  I guess that was the point I was trying to make.

[valpotx]

I only hope that if we do join the MVC, and it is for the upcoming school year, that our baseball/softball teams are not excluded from championships this season.  Our softball team is kicking butt again, and it would be a sad ending to a few senior's careers

[crusaderjoe]

What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?

Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.

This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision.  Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time.  Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.

I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern.  The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs.  We're simply discussing potential pros and cons.  The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL.  How do you know those schools won't go to big time football?  Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now?  Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO. 

[valpotx]

I believe that the MVC will still be the better conference in this scenario.  It seems like the leagues that have a better reputation, essentially just take on the high level teams from the lower leagues, and become the leagues that were below them:

Old Big East has become the old CUSA
CUSA has become the old Sun Belt
MWC has become the old WAC
WAC has become...crap
MVC poaches HL
HL poaches Summit
Summit poaches whatever is out there at a lower level

We would much rather be in the MVC now regardless of any defections they have, than to be in a revamped Summit under the HL name.  The MVC name will always be able to attract high level mid-majors, whereas the HL has run out of those types of options

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't think anyone here has ever seriously suggested Drexel...they would join the A-10 anyway.  The only time they've ever been mentioned among the eighty-four threads on expansion on this board was here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=892.0 and only to mock the very suggestion.

But let's take that into consideration seriously for a moment.  Drexel is 722 miles from Valpo; Belmont 446.

Adding them into the HL equation still leaves the MVC 21.6% longer.  Seriously, ponder that. We could add a school in Filthydelphia and Nashvegas to the HL and STILL be spending less in travel costs than we would in the MVC.

So, no, "not a wash".

[classof2014]

I don't see how it is such a big issue with the travel. Yes, some of the MVC schools are a bit further away but we will still be playing 5 road games in both Indiana and Illinois and obviously half our games will be still at home in Valpo. We have been spoiled in the sense that we were dead center in one of the most geographically compact conferences in the country. Most of the trips aren't that bad 5 to 6 hours. The only 2 outlying schools are WSU and MSU. But that's just two trips a year. Most of the time the teams spend a night in a hotel, so all there will be is the extra money will be for gasoline, in the big picture that won't be too big a difference compared to all of the other expenses. And I believe the increased attendance to games will equal out the extra money in gas and we will still have excess left over. Yes, more driving equals more gas, but better attendance equals more money.

[bbtds]

I only hope that if we do join the MVC, and it is for the upcoming school year, that our baseball/softball teams are not excluded from championships this season.  Our softball team is kicking butt again, and it would be a sad ending to a few senior's careers

They would probably hold out announcing the decision until Valpo is done in the softball/baseball post season.

[FWalum]

It seems like we all have gotten sucked into the mileage mathematical puzzle.  When the HL expands I hope that we are not adding the IUPUI, IPFW or other SL teams just because they fall in the current footprint.  In order to remain a relevant basketball conference the HL will most likely need to expand the footprint, as crusaderjoe so astutely expressed in his post, in order to get teams that are consistently -100 rpi teams like Belmont or Murray State.  Two such new trips would increase the HL average trip length considerably.  Adding two short trips, if UIC, Loyola and VU were all added, would significantly change the average trip length in the MVC.  So, what is the answer to the question?
What teams and how many will the HL add... and will we get invited to the MVC... and if we do what other teams if any would also come along? What decision better serves the the needs of the student athlete?  Do we even know what is important to our student athletes? Are the alumni better served by the possibility of seeing a game in their current city of residence or being able to catch 5 more games on television?  Will we get more midwest media exposure in the HL or MVC?  Does anybody really know what is happening on the realignment landscape? Alumni and friends of the university want to get something back from Valpo and this comes chiefly from the sense of pride you receive in VU's accomplishments both academically and athletically.  I almost wish that athletics weren't so important to a school's brand and recognition, but they are.  If you have a working crystal ball then please let the AD and administrators know the answers to these questions.  If not, then please pray that the good Lord gives them wisdom to make the proper decisions that will benefit our university and his kingdom.

[bbtds]

I don't see how it is such a big issue with the travel. Yes, some of the MVC schools are a bit further away but we will still be playing 5 road games in both Indiana and Illinois and obviously half our games will be still at home in Valpo. We have been spoiled in the sense that we were dead center in one of the most geographically compact conferences in the country. Most of the trips aren't that bad 5 to 6 hours. The only 2 outlying schools are WSU and MSU. But that's just two trips a year. Most of the time the teams spend a night in a hotel, so all there will be is the extra money will be for gasoline, in the big picture that won't be too big a difference compared to all of the other expenses. And I believe the increased attendance to games will equal out the extra money in gas and we will still have excess left over. Yes, more driving equals more gas, but better attendance equals more money.

It's wasn't really about travel costs, although it was big in the old Mid-Con, but about time away from the class room when Valpo moved to the Horizon League.  A study needs to be done about time lost from the class room in the MVC.

Also the dedication of the schools in the MVC to student academic performance needs to be questioned. There was not a lot of doubt that the HL really emphasized academic excellence of the student athlete. How does the MVC treat this part of the student athlete experience?

[vu72]

What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?

Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.

This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision.  Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time.  Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.

I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern.  The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs.  We're simply discussing potential pros and cons.  The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football?  Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now?  Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO. 

Can someone please explain this concern to me?  The Missouri Valley Football Conference is a different conference than what we are potentially joining. Thus, if, say, North Dakota State decided to move to FBS in football and the entire conference didn't want to, the Missouri Valley Football Conference would lose a member.  If you are suggesting that the entire school's athletic program would have to move then that is a different issue.  Many school's play different sports in different conferences so what am I missing?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Belmont or Murray State.  Two such new trips would increase the HL average trip length considerably.

It increases it, but not considerably:  it only takes HL avg trip from 215 to 260, a 21% increase. 
Still less than 75% of the average MVC trip.
Average essentially remains the same if Oakland is added (257 miles).

Best case scenario for MVC travel:  the three HL schools join and WSU leaves.  Average travel there...becomes 253, or just about what (reasonable) worst-case scenario HL travel is.

It's not nothing.  Nor is it the most important factor in discussion, certainly.  But it can't be sloughed off the table, either.

[classof2014]

Are the alumni better served by the possibility of seeing a game in their current city of residence or being able to catch 5 more games on television? Will we get more midwest media exposure in the HL or MVC?

I'm sure some alumni will be upset with the move to the MVC but on the other hand the fans in downstate Illinois and Indiana will be very happy to see that there will be Valpo games played in the Indy area again and Central/Southern Illinois. Me being a current student I know many people who moved downstate in Indiana, more so than to places like Cleveland, Detroit, or Milwaukee. So I think we would increase in alumni attending road games. Losing the two Chicago teams hurt but it's not like Valpo is that far from Chicago. I will miss making the trek into Chicago from Valpo to see them play UIC and Loyola but if it means better teams are coming to the ARC I will take that deal any day of the week.

I also think there will be a substantial increase in Midwest media exposure, there will be more televised games so more people will naturally tune in to watch. I also think there are more MVC fans out there than Horizon fans out there, who will watch a game on tv just because it's an MVC team involved even if it is not their team.

Best case scenario for MVC travel:  the three HL schools join and WSU leaves.  Average travel there...becomes 253, or just about what (reasonable) worst-case scenario HL travel is.

I don't see it being that big of a deal to have to travel to WSU, it's just one trip a year. If we had 5 or 6 10-12 hour drives then we don't belong but it's just 1.

[crusaderjoe]

What would your dad say? 'in making a decision this big, it's best to make lists of the pros & cons:' please add/subtract improve Pros 1) Better (top 10) conference for MBB competition 2) Bryce would probably be more likely to stay (á la Stevens @ TSDS) 3) Increased attendance both home and away Cons 1) Costs a lot of money. (exit fee; losing Butler FF $$$$; increased travel budget) 2) Best for MBB, probably, but what about non-revenue sports? 3) Having to start over creating rivalries in most cases 4) Trading cities like Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee/Cleveland for towns like Peoria/Wichita/Waterloo/Normal (yeesh.) Basically a wash 1) The public/private makeup of both conferences; the size disparities 2) Maybe the conferences end up pretty much same anyway--the #9 MVC, minus Creighton and possibly WSU, vs. the #12 HL?

Pro 4) Increased potential for quicker facility upgrades. Con 5) Potential conference split if MVC FCS schools move to FBS football. Wash 3) Geography/Travel.

This, I don't understand at all. The Missouri Valley football conference is completely different than the Missouri Valley in everything else. Drake, for example, plays in the Pioneer, as does Valpo. I don't see football, versus other sports as any issue in this discussion.

I would hope that football should have no factor in making this decision.  Drake is in this conference and they will never go big time.  Same goes for Indiana State and Illinois State.

I was not specifically alluding to Drake in that concern.  The concern rests with the scholarship FCS programs.  We're simply discussing potential pros and cons.  The worry about having more than one FCS football playing school move to FBS does not exist in the HL. How do you know those schools won't go to big time football?  Maybe they won't now, but what about 5 or 10 years from now?  Given that the Big Ten has already stated that they will no longer schedule FCS schools and schools like Appy St. and GA Southern have made the move up, you have to at least take potential movement into consideration, IMO. 

Can someone please explain this concern to me?  The Missouri Valley Football Conference is a different conference than what we are potentially joining. Thus, if, say, North Dakota State decided to move to FBS in football and the entire conference didn't want to, the Missouri Valley Football Conference would lose a member.  If you are suggesting that the entire school's athletic program would have to move then that is a different issue.  Many school's play different sports in different conferences so what am I missing?

Sorry 72--didn't mean to confuse the board.  What I'm talking about is an an all sports move (or near all sports move) to an FBS football conference because a scholarship FCS football school wants to make the move up.

[historyman]

Also the dedication of the schools in the MVC to student academic performance needs to be questioned. There was not a lot of doubt that the HL really emphasized academic excellence of the student athlete. How does the MVC treat this part of the student athlete experience?

The MVC website shows this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/default/

and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/emersonaward/

and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/elite18/

and this http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/drwestaward/

and the interesting staff award http://www.mvc-sports.com/awards/spiritofthevalley/  Spirit of the Valley Award.

I would call these awards minimal on the student athlete academic excellence and student athlete community involvement areas as compared to the Horizon League.

[classof2014]

Even if Valpo joins the MVC, there will be nothing preventing Valpo from holding their student athletes to a high standard in academics. Just because the MVC doesn't seem to hold their students to as high of standards as the Horizon, there is no reason why Valpo still can't hold their student athletes to high academic standards.

[historyman]

Even if Valpo joins the MVC, there will be nothing preventing Valpo from holding their student athletes to a high standard in academics. Just because the MVC doesn't seem to hold their students to as high of standards as the Horizon, there is no reason why Valpo still can't hold their student athletes to high academic standards.

You are correct. What I fear is those who don't see athletics as a means to further Valpo's enrollment goal will use this as a reason not to up our conference affiliation.

[a3uge]

I think Valpo should join the MVC if offered (it would be more clear 5 years down the road when the HL is replacing certain schools with Oakland, IUPUI, or IPFW). As stated before I feel Belmont and Murray State would go to the MVC before the Horizon. I'm just not seeing the Horizon getting better at this point, and if we miss an opportunity to jump now, we could be stuck for a long time. The MVC is either going to 10 or 12, and if Valpo turns down a bid, they'd have to wait years before a team drops, or they find a team to join with Valpo. Look at Butler. If they didn't jump ship and join the A-10, do you think they would be in the C7 next year? I'm not so sure they would.

As for the TV deal. Assume Valpo is a middle of the pack MVC team. Refer to my spreadsheet image made earlier:



Here's the NATIONAL TV conference schedule. In parenthesis are tourney games.

Valpo - ESPN 0 (1), ESPNU 3 (1), ESPN2 2

MO St - FSN National 1
Drake - ESPNU 1
Evansville - ESPNU 2
Bradley - ESPNU 1
SIU - ESPNU 2

Okay, and look at the others...

Indiana St - ESPNU 1
Illinois St - ESPN2 1, ESPNU 2, FSN National 2
Wichita St - CBS 0 (1), ESPN2 3, ESPNU 2
Northern Iowa - ESPN2 1

So it's not like they're getting on TV much more or have an outlandish TV deal. Their semifinal game was just on MVC network. Imagine if our semi final game was on HL Network. Goodbye Sportscenter/ESPN Broekhoff shot exposure.

There were more regional games in the MVC... in 2011 they were on FS MW 36 times. Even if they signed a better deal with CBS Sports or NBC Sports, it still isn't in the basic sports package (at least for DIRECTV).

It also appears that MVC network isn't full time - there are conference games that AREN'T EVEN COVERED! How crazy is that!?

But like I said, a future Horizon League would probably get a crappier TV deal in the future now that Butler is gone. The deal 3 years ago was after the first Butler championship run - http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/2010-02-02/horizon-league-espn-announce-multi-year-deal-through-2013 and I'm certain ESPN would pull back on games now that their flagship school is out. The MVC could probably get a better deal next time around now that WSU has made the final four.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Let's keep the discussion on the "Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?" post found here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new

(but feel free to discuss developing results here.)

[valpo04]

Let's keep the discussion on the "Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?" post found here
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1386.msg31408#new

(but feel free to discuss developing results here.)

Merged the poll into this topic to keep it all in one place.