Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[covufan]

Good info.  Thanks!

In all seriousness, facilities upgrades would be insisted upon by MVC officials.

HL 2+ bids: (bold denotes 3 or more)
1989 (Xavier, Evansville)
1990 (Xavier, Dayton)
1993 (Xavier, Evansville)
1995 (Xavier, Green Bay)
1996 (Northern Illinois, Green Bay)
1998 (Detroit, Butler, UIC)
2003 (Butler, Milwaukee)
2007 (Butler, Wright State)
2009 (Butler, Cleveland State)

All-time in the tournament: 31-41 (43.1%)
In the 32 years (since 1982): 42 bids (1.31 a year, or every 4 years an at-large bid)
In the last 20 years: 27 bids (1.35 a year, same)
In the last 10 years: 12 bids (1.2 a year, or every 5 years an at-large bid)

MVC 2+ bids (only going back as far as 1982 for comparison to HL's sake)
1984 (Illinois State, Tulsa)
1985 (Illinois State, Tulsa, Wichita State)
1986 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1987 (Tulsa, Wichita State)
1988 (Bradley, Wichita State)
1994 (Tulsa, Southern Illinois)
1996 (Tulsa, Bradley)
1999 (Creighton, Missouri State, Evansville)
2000 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2001 (Creighton, Indiana State)
2002 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2003 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2004 (Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2005 (Creighton, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois)
2006 (Wichita State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, Bradley)
2007 (Creighton, Southern Illinois)
2012 (Wichita State, Creighton)
2013 (Wichita State, Creighton)

All-time in the tournament: 92-98 (48.4%) ...plus pending loss to Louisville
In the last 32 years:  55 bids (1.72 a year, or about 2 at-large every 3, or 3 every 4 years)
In the last 20 years:  37 bids (1.85 a year, or an at-large about 8 out of 9 years)
In the last 10 years:  19 bids (1.9 a year, or, yeah, 9 years out of 10, but you figured that out)

That last number is especially impressive when you realize that they went 4 straight years without an at-large bid from 2008 through 2011.  4 straight years is now the HL's current streak for missing an at-large.

[covufan]

Hypothetically, the Chicago market may provide the conference with an increased media presence resulting in additional dollars to the conference without tournament appearances from any Chicagoland schools.  Just the expansion of the market might provide net worth, meaning, in other words, if a network wants "it", the conference still has the potential to make money if it moves to 12--whether or not any of the three schools are actually media relevant in that respective market.

Couldn't agree with you more on that fact. You literally have the whole Chicagoland covered pretty much, North (LU), West (UIC), and South (Valpo). And by having 3 teams there is that much more of a chance of a team doing well in a major city and bringing in major dollars. If any of the 3 teams raise their level of play while in the MVC, this will bring in a substantial portion of the MVC's revenue. I think out of those 3 teams, Valpo currently has the best chance of doing that but both UIC and Loyola are larger schools so they naturally will have more potential followers, and being in a better conference might bring many of those UIC and Loyola alumni out of the closet.

Once again, I'm confused by this fixation on the Chicago market, since the Chicago market cares not one wit for any of the 3 teams you are talking about.  It's not doing the HL any good.  Why would it do the MVC any good?

Maybe not the Chicago Market, but that most Universities in the HL or MVC would have a fair number of alumni in the Chicago area.  Also, the MVC could be looking for a tournament host, which Chicago would qualify for with Loyola, UIC and Valpo.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Thank you.  It was edifying to me to put together.

You could make the argument--emphasis on the subjunctive--that the MVC's high-water mark for the Dance was 1999 through 2007.

In those 8 years, they averaged 2.625 bids a year!

Before that, they averaged 1.47.  Since then, 1.5.

I guess I did make that argument anyway, didn't I?

[bbtds]

Thank you.  It was edifying to me to put together.

You could make the argument--emphasis on the subjunctive--that the MVC's high-water mark for the Dance was 1999 through 2007.

In those 8 years, they averaged 2.625 bids a year!

Before that, they averaged 1.47.  Since then, 1.5.

I guess I did make that argument anyway, didn't I?

My GUESS is that you set the record for words per post on this board. How can anyone compete with that? Wordy Nerdy is a term that comes to mind. Speaking of minds........damn, I lost my train of thought.....speaking of trains.............

http://www.youtube.com/embed/FKTHDrCnyzI

speaking of words........


Hawk Nelson: Words [Official Lyric Video]




Think about it.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

My GUESS is that you set the record for words per post on this board.

you say that after a post with <50 words in it?

[wh]

Rob Demovsky ‏@RobDemovsky 10h
@letsgoguins If the UIC thing is wrong, then someone at UIC had it wrong. You also should know no one in Chicago cares abt UIC to report it

CYA going on.  Demovsky and our Milw friend have been saying that what they originally reported came from different sources within the UIC athletic dept.  Very likely those "sources" heard the same rumor being spread throughout the UIC athletic dept. and passed it on. That may be 2 sources, but they're not 2 independent sources.  An example of independent sources would be one trustworthy source from within UIC plus one or more trustworthy sources from outside UIC, say from the MVC Commissioner's office and/or an MVC program.  Moreover, the rumor alleging that adding UIC was a done deal didn't make any sense from a timing standpoint. 

Those two factors alone should have been enough to prompt a seasoned veteran like Demovsky that he needed to do more fact checking before he ran with this.  Instead of simply admitting that, he smugly tweets that if the rumor proves to be false, the blame is on the "source" and not on the reporter who recklessly passed it on and misled everyone in the process.   

[valporun]

A bad case of premature gratification is Twitter, where diarrhea of the mind flows through the fingers onto the keypads of phones, iPads, iPod Touch, and laptops/PCs, and the origin doesn't matter because the "Tweeter" thinks they can seamlessly hide behind it like they can on a message board name. I use Twitter, but I just don't get why some people have to live and die by the concept that "If I have a good story, then I have to tweet or Facebook it." If you think it is a good story, do some more research to make sure it's true, otherwise you're going to have some really messy laundry to clean up.

[valpotx]

Yep, knew it didn't sound correct the first time I saw it.  It made absolutely no sense that the MVC was just so blown away by UIC that they had to have an immediate vote to add them to the MVC now.  It would be completely mindless to just visit UMKC, Valpo, UIC, and Loyola, when you still have several weeks before you really need to lock down a member, if you do at all for 2013-2014.  ORU is now pushing hard for the MVC, and I am sure that they will at least get a visit as well.  I still think that we have a chance to get an invite, but really need to promise a lot on the facilities side.

[sliman]

Tulsa paper lists Valpo, Belmont, Denver and ORU as the most often mentioned candidates for the MVC.  The writer believes the long history of Tulsa with the conference could be a factor in ORU's favor.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/article.aspx/ORU_needs_to_push_for_Missouri_Valley_invitation/20130328_203_B1_Tulsas39837

[crusaderjoe]

Without knowing more about MVC and ORU history, I think if you are a Valpo fan and you really really want to see VU in the MVC, ORU poses a significant danger even if the MVC expands to 12.  Just look at a map. ORU could very easily solidify the southwestern area of their geographical circle while at the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area.  Valpo then becomes the odd man out. Plus, they are private so it helps with the public/private balance.  Just something else to think about.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

at the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area.  Valpo then becomes the odd man out.

I don't know...if UIC & Loyola were so good and important, wouldn't they have done just that for the HL after so many years? 

Who needs 2 IUPUIs, regardless of what major metro center they're in?

[valpotx]

Of course the Tulsa World will say that ORU is the leading candidate.  Are they going to tell their readers that they have no chance so that they don't view future MVC articles they write??

[LaPorteAveApostle]

More food for thought:

as of right now, the HL has 17 NCAA units, at approximately a quarter million dollars apiece.  (2011s were worth $222,206, 2012s $245,656 and 2013 $245,514, for example.)  A unit represents a game played by a team in the conference, up to five total for reaching the F4.

(Hm...I wonder if this means a play-in game is infinitely better for a low-major conference because you have a ZILLION PERCENT better chance [~50% over ~0%] to win a game and thus get a second unit before you end up like France in the 1940 NCAA 1st round...but I digress.)

The MVC has 16, even with WSU's run to the F4.

Plus when you factor in "divided by 9" vs. "divided by 10", I have the HL schools richer by a factor of 1.18 (or making 18% more money), at least for right now.

Butler's F4s will keep paying for 2 and 3 more years, respectively...staying in the HL means another $600K for VU just from Butler for those two years.

Last year the HL had 20 and the MVC 15.

Two years ago the HL had 21 and the MVC 18.

Three years ago the HL had 19 and the MVC 21. 

Four years ago, before butler was B----R, the HL had 15 and the MVC 20.

Just food for thought is all.

=============
EDIT:  showing my work

HL tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament

MVC tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament

calculation of an NCAA unit:

Each Final Four team has maxed out its earning potential for its conference because the championship game is not counted toward the NCAA's conference distributions. A run to the Final Four accrues a team's conference five basketball units, one for each game played, which are worth an estimated total $7.7 million over the next six years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/

value of an NCAA unit:

In 2010-2011, one unit was worth approximately $222,206.  In 2012-13, one unit is worth approximately $248,000 after clocking in at $245,656 in 2011-12.  Furthermore, the NCAA pays conferences each season for the "units earned" over the course of the previous 6 seasons.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/

value of an NCAA win:

Using recent increases and future projections as a guide, we can estimate that the total six-year value of playing a tournament game in 2013 is more than $1.5 million.

And that's just the value of a single game played by one team.

If a team wins its first-round game, it doubles the six-year conference payout to more than $3 million. If it makes a run to the Final Four, thus appearing in five tournament games, it will earn its conference a massive $7.7 million over the next six years.

That's a nice chunk of cash, and a necessary one for the smaller conferences that can't rely on BCS bowl game revenue or massive TV deals.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/

[zvillehaze]

I have it on good authority that the MVC's choice for a 10th member has come down to either UIC or a sleeper program that no one has been talking about - IUPUI.  Apparently, both schools are perceived to be alike in many respects and would similarly devalue the MVC.  Here are some of the considerations:

...similar enrollment - IUPUI 30,000 UIC 25,000
...similar academic programs, image and reputation (academic reputation exaggerated equally by alums of both schools)
...both have terrible men's basketball programs
...both reside in major metropolitan areas where they can't recruit
...no one follows either program or cares whether they exist
...neither gets any media exposure, meaning there is great opportunity for improvement at both places
...both schools are public, which would weigh the already imbalanced public/private mix further in favor of public

Another of my many sources indicates that IUPUI may in fact be slightly ahead based on more "reason for hope" :
(my source's words, not mine)
...IUPUI has been terrible playing in terrible facilities; UIC has been terrible despite playing in very good facilities
...the other D-1 program where IUPUI resides has achieved a high degree of success; all D-1's where UIC resides are equally terrible

I'll try to keep everyone posted as this develops further.  There's a guy that lives down the street whose sister works in cafeteria services at UIC.  I'm going to see what he can find out. 

No offense intended toward anyone.  Just trying to add a little levity to all the tension surrounding this whole thing. 

I get the attempt at humor, but since I'm writing checks to IUPUI, I'll take a stab at defending the school.  Over the last 6 years, IUPUI men's basketball's average RPI is 176 ... not good enough to positively impact the MVC (although it wouldn't hurt the Horizon), but certainly competitive with UIC or Loyola.  (Didn't bother researching those, but Valpo's average is 125.  Better than IUPUI, but again, not good enough to positively impact the MVC in terms of at large bids).

I also take exception at the "terrible facilities" jab.  Here's  what they have:

Basketball / Volleyball - "The Jungle" is ok for volleyball, but clearly inadequate for DI basketball. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx?  As I mentioned in another thread, the rumor is that men's basketball will move to the renovated Pepsi Coliseum when complete in July 2014, with a capacity of 8,000 to 9,000.  http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html

Track and Field - Michael Carroll Stadium ... has hosted multiple USA Track and Field championships. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx?

Swimming and Diving - Their facility is sort of nice ... having hosted NCAA Championships and Olympic Trials.  http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?

Soccer - http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?  Nice facility for soccer, which could get a facelift in the near future to accommodate professional soccer.  http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/

General training facility - The National Institute for Fitness and Sport (NIFS) is quite a nice facility for training needs. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx?

Sorry for getting sidetracked ... just my     Carry on.   

[wh]

I get the attempt at humor, but since I'm writing checks to IUPUI, I'll take a stab at defending the school.  Over the last 6 years, IUPUI men's basketball's average RPI is 176 ... not good enough to positively impact the MVC (although it wouldn't hurt the Horizon), but certainly competitive with UIC or Loyola.  (Didn't bother researching those, but Valpo's average is 125.  Better than IUPUI, but again, not good enough to positively impact the MVC in terms of at large bids).

I also take exception at the "terrible facilities" jab.  Here's  what they have:

Basketball / Volleyball - "The Jungle" is ok for volleyball, but clearly inadequate for DI basketball. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/jungle.aspx?  As I mentioned in another thread, the rumor is that men's basketball will move to the renovated Pepsi Coliseum when complete in July 2014, with a capacity of 8,000 to 9,000.  http://www.in.gov/statefair/fairgrounds/venues/pepsi_coliseum.html

Track and Field - Michael Carroll Stadium ... has hosted multiple USA Track and Field championships. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/carrol_stadium.aspx?

Swimming and Diving - Their facility is sort of nice ... having hosted NCAA Championships and Olympic Trials.  http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?

Soccer - http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/natotorium.aspx?  Nice facility for soccer, which could get a facelift in the near future to accommodate professional soccer.  http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/

General training facility - The National Institute for Fitness and Sport (NIFS) is quite a nice facility for training needs. http://www.iupuijags.com/sports/2007/12/20/nifs.aspx?

Sorry for getting sidetracked ... just my     Carry on.   

From the day Butler departed the HL to the present day, two schools that everyone on every HL message board have consistently maintained that they DO NOT want in this league are IUPUI and IPFW.  Yet, I don't recall you ever saying one word in defense of IUPUI over all this time. Instead, you get defensive when I lampoon IUPUI as a school that a higher rated conference obviously wouldn't consider.  I will assume that this is YOUR attempt at humor. 

[bbtds]

More food for thought:

as of right now, the HL has 17 NCAA units, at approximately a quarter million dollars apiece.  (2011s were worth $222,206, 2012s $245,656 and 2013 $245,514, for example.)  A unit represents a game played by a team in the conference, up to five total for reaching the F4.

(Hm...I wonder if this means a play-in game is infinitely better for a low-major conference because you have a ZILLION PERCENT better chance [~50% over ~0%] to win a game and thus get a second unit before you end up like France in the 1940 NCAA 1st round...but I digress.)

The MVC has 16, even with WSU's run to the F4.

Plus when you factor in "divided by 9" vs. "divided by 10", I have the HL schools richer by a factor of 1.18 (or making 18% more money), at least for right now.

Butler's F4s will keep paying for 2 and 3 more years, respectively...staying in the HL means another $600K for VU just from Butler for those two years.

Last year the HL had 20 and the MVC 15.

Two years ago the HL had 21 and the MVC 18.

Three years ago the HL had 19 and the MVC 21. 

Four years ago, before butler was B----R, the HL had 15 and the MVC 20.

Just food for thought is all.

=============
EDIT:  showing my work

HL tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/HL/tournament

MVC tournament history: http://www.bbstate.com/conferences/VALLEY/tournament

calculation of an NCAA unit:

Each Final Four team has maxed out its earning potential for its conference because the championship game is not counted toward the NCAA's conference distributions. A run to the Final Four accrues a team's conference five basketball units, one for each game played, which are worth an estimated total $7.7 million over the next six years.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/04/01/the-money-behind-the-ncaa-final-four/

value of an NCAA unit:

In 2010-2011, one unit was worth approximately $222,206.  In 2012-13, one unit is worth approximately $248,000 after clocking in at $245,656 in 2011-12.  Furthermore, the NCAA pays conferences each season for the "units earned" over the course of the previous 6 seasons.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2013/03/17/marchs-monetary-madness-as-ncaas-collegiate-basketball-showcase-takes-center-stage/

value of an NCAA win:

Using recent increases and future projections as a guide, we can estimate that the total six-year value of playing a tournament game in 2013 is more than $1.5 million.

And that's just the value of a single game played by one team.

If a team wins its first-round game, it doubles the six-year conference payout to more than $3 million. If it makes a run to the Final Four, thus appearing in five tournament games, it will earn its conference a massive $7.7 million over the next six years.

That's a nice chunk of cash, and a necessary one for the smaller conferences that can't rely on BCS bowl game revenue or massive TV deals.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2013/03/21/a-single-ncaa-tournament-victory-is-worth-1-5-million/

Is now a good time for the words per post thread? 

[sliman]

Of course the Tulsa World will say that ORU is the leading candidate.  Are they going to tell their readers that they have no chance so that they don't view future MVC articles they write??

As I read the article cited, I don't believe the writer was saying ORU is the leading candidate.  I believe he was urging ORU to make an all-out effort to get a spot in the conference and that he felt it would be good for the conference.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Is now a good time for the words per post thread. 

touché


although, does copying and pasting really count?

[bbtds]

although, does copying and pasting really count?

If it's not more than 50% of the words then it is a "play-in" post.     


Of course, a "play-in" post could net the reader more value as a poster if they "win" the "play-in" thread.

[zvillehaze]

From the day Butler departed the HL to the present day, two schools that everyone on every HL message board have consistently maintained that they DO NOT want in this league are IUPUI and IPFW.  Yet, I don't recall you ever saying one word in defense of IUPUI over all this time. Instead, you get defensive when I lampoon IUPUI as a school that a higher rated conference obviously wouldn't consider.  I will assume that this is YOUR attempt at humor. 

I was obviously joking ... a higher rated conference considering a school with horrible facilities, marginal commitment to athletics and no history of earning at large NCAA basketball bids is laughable.  Unless, of course, they're just looking for a warm body to fill an empty seat (and IUPUI makes no sense for the Horizon since they need someone with a baseball program). 

[bbtds]

http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/

Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA.  The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.

[zvillehaze]

http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/

Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA.  The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.

And if you squint, you can see the Horizon League's headquarters in Pan Am Plaza.  Squint a little harder and you can see a caricature of Jon LeCrone looking out the window and laughing at IUPUI's horrible facilities.

[EddieCabot]

at the same time the two Chicago schools could help solidify their northeastern area.  Valpo then becomes the odd man out.

I don't know...if UIC & Loyola were so good and important, wouldn't they have done just that for the HL after so many years? 

Who needs 2 IUPUIs, regardless of what major metro center they're in?

I agree ... the MVC is losing Creighton and needs someone to step in and fill those shoes immediately.  Valpo is coming off back-to-back league championships and a trip to the NCAA tournament.  No other team mentioned can come close to that.  By adding Valpo, they could move forward without missing a beat.  The MVC is filled with small city universities that draw well because they're the only show in town.  Valpo fits that mold ... UIC, Loyola and UMKC don't.

The other oddity is that I haven't seen St. Louis mentioned with the MVC.  In my mind, that means that either a.) SLU is heading to the Big East after this season, or b.) the A-10 will be adding additional Midwest teams (Detroit, Loyola?) to join SLU and Dayton as Midwest members.  My bet is a.).

[bbtds]

http://indyprosoccer.com/nasl-awards-pro-soccer-franchise-to-indy/

Want to know how close IUPUI is to NCAA headquarters? Look at the brown building to the right in that sketch of the IUPUI soccer facility. The front part of that complex is the NCAA Hall of Champions on the canal in downtown Indy. The back part is the NFHS and NCAA.  The tall square like reflective building is the J.W. Marriott Hotel where many huge Indy events are held. The Natatorium building is directly west of the soccer facility (left is north, right is south). The Jungle is across the hall from the swimming pool in the Nat.

And if you squint, you can see the Horizon League's headquarters in Pan Am Plaza.  Squint a little harder and you can see a caricature of Jon LeCrone looking out the window and laughing at IUPUI's horrible facilities.

You wonder what it was like for the HL to team with IUPUI officials for hosting the men's basketball regional at Lucas Oil Stadium. "No, we don't want to come to the Nat for the meetings. We'd rather meet at the Pan Am Plaza, NCAA headquarters or Lucas Oil. I'm not setting foot in that Jungle," said Jon LeCrone.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

The MVC is filled with small city universities that draw well because they're the only show in town. 

Very good and perhaps uncovered-thus-far point...

(although EC has CLEARLY not seen the 49er or the MOH.)

/s