Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[historyman]

Do you think the MVC left the baseball programs in place so as not to anger the HL too much and create a war between the conferences? Leaving the HL with 2 teams in and around Chicago and the MVC with one. Then if the HL gets Oakland it doesn't hurt the Summit League too bad and all leagues can continue to exist.

[wh]

I would love to see the HL add Evansville now in addition to Oakland.  If Evansville was in fact considering the HL before, nothing about adding Loyola to their conference line-up should change that interest.  If anything, being in a league that will undoubtedly take a huge RPI (and conference reputation) hit from losing Creighton and "gaining" Loyola should make moving to the HL more attractive than ever.

[Smj]

Love to see Evansville Aces in the HL...   Location is good and would think it is a great trade - Loyola for Evansville.

[classof2014]

If the Horizon were to add Oakland and get rid of Loyola it'd be a great trade, the Horizon's reputation will be much better without Loyola and adding a good Oakland team. The only reason why people looked down upon them was because they were in the dreaded Summit League.

If the MVC only takes Loyola... WHAT A STUPID MOVE!!!!!! That's pretty much trading Creighton for a sack of basketballs! Honestly I see this as the MVC will be moving up to 12 and I do believe that includes Valpo and ORU. If not just WOW what a downgrade for the MVC when they had many other higher quality programs to choose from.

Honestly, I'd like to see one of two things happen to valpo: a) Go to the MVC or b) the Horizon picks up Oakland, anything less this off season would be a BIG disappointment in my opinion.

[wh]

One conference's problem becomes another's "great opportunity":

2012-13
58    Valparaiso   15-3     25-7   
64    Detroit   12-5     18-12
130    Wright St.   12-7     20-12
160    Wisc. Green Bay   12-7     17-15
169    Illinois-Chicago   8-10     16-15
188    Youngstown St.   8-10     14-15
199    Cleveland St.   5-12     11-18   
222    Loyola (IL)   5-12     14-16   
307    Wisc. Milwaukee   3-14     6-24   

2011-12
85    Cleveland St.   12-7     21-10   
95    Valparaiso   15-5     20-11   
116    Butler   13-8     18-14   
124    Wisc. Milwaukee   12-8     18-13   
127    Detroit   15-7     20-13   
149    Wisc. Green Bay   10-9     13-15   
171    Youngstown St.   11-9     14-15
226    Wright St.   7-12     12-19   
299    Illinois-Chicago   3-16     7-21   
310    Loyola (IL)   1-18     6-23   

2010-11
34    Butler   15-5     22-9   
42    Cleveland St.   15-6     24-8   
71    Valparaiso   14-7     21-11   
92    Wisc. Milwaukee   14-6     19-13   
124    Wright St.   11-9     17-14   
143    Detroit   11-9     16-16   
171    Wisc. Green Bay   8-11     13-18   
197    Loyola (IL)   7-12     16-15   
291    Illinois-Chicago   2-17     6-24   
295    Youngstown St.   2-17     7-21   

2009-10
12    Butler   20-0     28-4   
80    Wright St.   13-7     20-12   
107    Wisc. Green Bay   12-8     19-12   
130    Wisc. Milwaukee   12-9     18-14   
165    Cleveland St.   11-9     14-17   
167    Detroit   11-10     19-14   
186    Valparaiso   10-9     12-17   
213    Loyola (IL)   5-14     12-16   
271    Youngstown St.   2-17     6-22   
291    Illinois-Chicago   3-16     7-22   

2008-09
24    Butler   16-4     25-5   
52    Cleveland St.   16-6     22-10   
71    Wisc. Green Bay   13-6     21-9   
93    Wright St.   14-7     20-13   
134    Wisc. Milwaukee   12-8     15-14   
166    Illinois-Chicago   8-12     15-15   
214    Loyola (IL)   6-13     13-17   
239    Youngstown St.   7-12     9-19   
260    Valparaiso   5-14     7-22   
281    Detroit   2-17     6-23   

2007-08
17    Butler   18-2     30-4   
65    Cleveland St.   13-7     19-13   
84    Wright St.   13-7     21-10   
101    Valparaiso   11-10     19-13   
140    Illinois-Chicago   11-10     17-15   
148    Wisc. Green Bay   9-10     15-15   
180    Wisc. Milwaukee   9-10     13-16   
221    Loyola (IL)   7-13     10-19   
230    Youngstown St.   5-14     7-21   
287    Detroit   3-16     6-23   

Good luck MVC!

[crusaderjoe]

As with the other thread a few weeks ago where some of you put Loyola on blast, here we go again. I'm not sure I understand the sentiment.  I had mentioned in the other thread that LUC would make perfect sense in the MVC.  They were as good as an option in the Midwest for the MVC as any.  The MVC public/private balance is fulfilled, their entrance provides the MVC with an historical name from a basketball program standpoint, and the MVC now has an inroad to a major market that lies within its geographical footprint.  LUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done.  All of this makes past RPI irrelevant.  Our facilities are garbage, which is why we needed the MVC to move to 12 to have any shot whatsoever. 

With LUC's entrance, UE is not moving to the HL, IMO.  My guess is that the MVC will stay at 10 and then wait to see what happens for a year or two since conference realignment is still fluid.  We would have seen more smoke by now about a 12 team league if that was happening.  I'm further guessing that the HL will look to both Oakland and Northern Kentucky as teams #9 and #10.  In two years, we may be the only private school left in this league.

[Big D]

David Woods is the only journalist that is still saying that the MVC is adding UIC. Most say that UIC was passed over for Loyola. I don't see the MVC adding both. The only thing either school offers the MVC is their Chicago location. You don't need both schools to gain that. The MVC would be better served to wait until next year to see if they can add UD and SLU if/when they don't get invited to the NBE. If those schools are taken by the NBE the MVC could still add Oral Roberts and Valpo and add 2 quality programs. It just doesn't make sense to add 2 bad basketball programs now in UIC and Loyola just to gain the Chicago market.

As far the HL is concerned, I would gladly trade Loyola for Oakland now and consider it an upgrade. That would put us at 9 with enough baseball schools to keep our automatic bid. It would stop the HL bleeding and solidify us until we can make our next move.

Our next move needs to be one of the following:

1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.

or

2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.

[valpopal]

A friend who knows I am a Valpo fan e-mailed me the following stats and comments comparing the Valpo and Loyola basketball teams the last three years:

W-L Records:

Valpo   71-32
Loyola  33-54

RPI Average:

Valpo    81
Loyola  243

Average Attendance:

Valpo    3150
Loyola   2280

His conclusion: "If Loyola is selected by the MVC and Valpo is not, there are two main reasons. First, as in real estate, the most important factors are location, location, location: Loyola is in Chicago. Second, Loyola has displayed a willingness to commit to athletics and invest in their higher profile programs with a major renovation of their arena and the hiring of a high profile women's basketball coach, which should mean a stronger women's team. On the other hand, despite the success of its men's basketball team, Valpo has not shown any major investment in facilities for its highest profile program. Also, your women's program appears to be falling apart as players depart."

I didn't double-check his stats, but I can't argue much with the logic in his comments.

[a3uge]

Do you know who has great access to large cities and the Chicago market? The Horizon League. If 'potential' sits around and doesn't do anything for 10-20 years, is it really potential anymore? I fall to see the logical argument that the MVC will grow a couple of bottom feeders into successful teams. If it's easy, why hasn't the Horizon able to do that? Does the MVC think the Horizon is incompetent for the mismanagement of the Chicago schools... and that they will turn the potential into results?

The MVC semi final games aren't even on TV. The championship game is on CBS, but obviously only two already strong programs benefit from that. The MVC has great programs from smaller cities and smaller schools. They've taken that model and transformed the MVC into the best mid major conference in the country. Now they want to ditch that model and play this 'potential' routine. I don't see it. I just don't see the exposure of the MVC taking Loyola or UIC to the next level.

...

I still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.

[classof2014]

I still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.

Exactly. I don't understand why the MVC wants to take struggling programs. This only has the potential to go horribly wrong, I can see a poor Loyola or UIC team struggling to win a single game in the much stronger MVC. And that will hurt the recruiting of those teams greatly. Who wants to go to a school that is struggling to win a game. Honestly, I see this as a terrible move for Loyola or UIC. I think they need to establish programs in the weaker Horizon before they look to jump into a bigger pond.

Valpo, Belmont, or ORU are much better choices for the MVC, all teams can compete at the MVC level. They all fit their demographics as well smaller schools, from a smaller town.

I think the MVC should go with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" model. By taking teams like Loyola or UIC, there is potential for disaster, because I can see either team struggling to win a single game. While going with good programs that fit your demographic, they'll competitive in the MVC and can only make the MVC stronger.

[isu87]

Do you know who has great access to large cities and the Chicago market? The Horizon League. If 'potential' sits around and doesn't do anything for 10-20 years, is it really potential anymore? I fall to see the logical argument that the MVC will grow a couple of bottom feeders into successful teams. If it's easy, why hasn't the Horizon able to do that? Does the MVC think the Horizon is incompetent for the mismanagement of the Chicago schools... and that they will turn the potential into results? The MVC semi final games aren't even on TV. The championship game is on CBS, but obviously only two already strong programs benefit from that. The MVC has great programs from smaller cities and smaller schools. They've taken that model and transformed the MVC into the best mid major conference in the country. Now they want to ditch that model and play this 'potential' routine. I don't see it. I just don't see the exposure of the MVC taking Loyola or UIC to the next level. ... I still won't believe any report until it's done. Too many anonymous sources floating around saying false information. If Belmont wanted into the MVC, I would be confused as to why the MVC takes UIC or Loyola in front of them. Same goes for ORU.

that is actually incorrect, all the MVC tourney games are on TV. Even the Thursday night games are on TV, I know because I watched them in the dakotas. Fox Sports aired them. You're correct in that the final is on CBS, but they only show the first 37 minutes of the game, then cut away to a Big 10 game 

[isu87]

also, the MVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013, but that does not mean Valpo is out for 2014. Noone knows what else may happen. My guess is the MVC will wait to see what happens with SLU and Dayton and the new Big East, then assuming they go there, add a couple more schools in 2014? So no need to go full panic mode yet, there is still hope IMO

[valpotx]

Which ISU are you a fan of?  It seems like Illinois State fans hated the idea of adding Valpo, whereas Indiana State fans were a little more nice lol. 

I feel less burned as a Valpo fan to see Loyola taken over us first, versus seeing UIC taken over us first.  Loyola has shown great commitment to athletics facility improvements, but it still won't help their terrible programs to be in a stronger league.  They still won't win the recruiting battles versus us in regards to men's basketball players, but they do have a very large endowment that can contribute to further enhancements of their programs.  Hopefully the HL realizes that we really should add at least 2 teams ASAP, to get to 10 and travel partners.  I really hope that both additions have baseball as well, to get us to 7 teams, in case UIC is invited for 2014.

[valpotx]

Ok, I believe it now:

http://espn.go.com/chicago/college-sports/story/_/id/9170325/loyola-leaving-horizon-missouri-valley-conference-report

[classof2014]

Really surprised to see Loyola. Not the worst move for the Horizon, so long they can replace them with Oakland or similar team to Oakland. Guess the MVC wanted the Chicago market... so they took a terrible team. Terrible move on the behalf of the MVC in my opinion.

[sliman]

LUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done. 

How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades.  It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so:  Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education.  Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial.  Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc.  Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress.  And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget).  Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year.  No mention of other teams.

[a3uge]

When your main selling point is a women's college basketball coach who hasn't coached a game in her life, then you know it was a questionable move.

Great players don't always make great coaches anyways. Ask Forest Gregg, Bart Starr... See how Jordan is doing managing his team.

And finally, women's college basketball is irrelevant to conference switches. Loyola doesn't even have their own wikipedia page.

[valpopal]

I ran some numbers on my calculator while watching the Masters, and I came up with the following.

If the MVC is replacing Creighton (rpi 23) with Loyola (rpi 218) rather than Valpo (rpi 58): in the past season that would have lowered the MVC average rpi from 117 to 137, which would drop the conference from 9th to 10th in the rpi rankings. With Valpo instead of Loyola the MVC would have an average rpi of 120 and remain in 9th place as a conference.

If the HL replaces Loyola (218) with Oakland (rpi 164), the conference rpi average the past year would have moved from 166 to 159. The Horizon League would remain in 12th place, but the gap between the HL and the MVC in rpi average would have diminished significantly from 49 to 22. If the HL could have miraculously added Belmont (rpi 19) as a 10th team, the HL rpi average would have changed to 145 (very close to the MVC with Loyola), and the league would have moved up to 11th in ranking just behind the MVC.

Briefly, the trade of Loyola for Oakland hurts the MVC strength and helps the HL.

Really surprised to see Loyola. Not the worst move for the Horizon, so long they can replace them with Oakland or similar team to Oakland. Guess the MVC wanted the Chicago market... so they took a terrible team. Terrible move on the behalf of the MVC in my opinion.

[78crusader]

Not really sure what all the hand-wringing is about.  We are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con, not only in terms of the level of competition, but also in terms of travel for our athletes.  (Just ask the Loyola basketball teams next winter when they travel for a Tuesday night game to Wichita, Kansas.)

I think VU will, in the next several years, substantially upgrade the athletic facilities.  The current administration has indicated this is a priority.  I think they will follow through on this.  Some parts of this plan are already in place, and some upgrades -- granted, small parts of the plan --have been completed.  Maybe we will get us another look by the MVC in the years to come.  Who knows, with this crazy and ultimately unjustifiable conference realignment nonsense going on. 

I would challenge any school our size to come up with a comparable list of improvements/additions/new facilities over the past 10 years.  I think this administration has big goals in mind for the next ten years, and athletics plays a major role in those plans. These things take time.  It took ten years to bring the new union on line, from the first discussions on the board level until the doors were opened.  Same with the library.  But both projects eventually got done, and were done right.  I am excited about the future for VU athletics, and five years from now I think we will all be very pleased with how our athletic facilties compare with other schools in both the Horizon and Missouri Valley conferences.  If our ultimate goal is to join a conference that has a significant number of private schools of good academic quality -- and this, in my mind, would be the only reason to change conferences -- then perhaps we will be in a stronger position once the athletic improvements are in place.  Until then, I am content to be competitive in a reputable conference. 

Paul

[crusaderjoe]

LUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done. 

How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades.  It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so:  Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education.  Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial.  Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc.  Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress.  And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget).  Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year.  No mention of other teams.

Your post is perfect sliman.  I am not trying to call you out at all so please do not take my comments the wrong way, but in my opinion the post embodies everything that is wrong with the mindset that revolves around the relationship between academics and athletics at Valparaiso University.  It not only illustrates and demonstrates completely the ancillary back seat nature that athletics has taken at VU over the course of the past campaigns, but it also seeks to obtain recognition for the monetary effort put forth toward academic improvement in the context of an athletic discussion.  The post is perfect. 

No one is dismissing all of the academic infrastructural accomplishments on your list.  The efforts put forth by the University however were not largely athletic, if at all.  On the other hand, Loyola allocated (or is in the process of allocating) over $100M for both athletic and academic/student upgrades through their most recent capital campaign. There is no question--no question at all that VU did not allocate significant dollars to both academics and athletics as Loyola has done recently. Perhaps if athletics wasn't seen as ancillary major ARC renovations would have been included with academic infrastructure. I would have liked to have seen that mix personally.

[wh]

My hands aren't wringing at all.  At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation.  I look forward to the day.   

[IndyValpo]

Our next move needs to be one of the following:

1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.

or

2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.

Exactly!  In this day and age, waiting is the completely wrong thing to do. If LeCrone can't do this (and it appears he can not) then find someone who can.

[a3uge]

Disagree completely. Where is Oakland going to go? It's not like they can move anywhere else. It appeared the HL targeted Belmont and Murray State and both aren't going anywhere. Should they aggressively fill the Horizon with IUPUI and IPFW? There's just not very many options out there to replace Butler. There's Belmont and Murray State and the rare chance an MVC team splits (Evansville). If Oakland was in the Horizon already would that make any other team in the Horizon want to stay instead of go to the MVC? No. So unless you have some magical solution for adding Belmont / Murray State that the MVC doesn't even know about, the criticism is just empty.

[wh]

From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing.  I think it provides good food for thought:

The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.

It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???

Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.

I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......

It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....

I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....

Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.



I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.

[EddieCabot]

My hands aren't wringing at all.  At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation.  I look forward to the day.   

I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon.  As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.

It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested.