Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[valpopal]

From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing.  I think it provides good food for thought:

The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.

It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???

Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.

I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......

It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....

I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....

Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.



I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.

We have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.

[StlVUFan]

Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?

[motowntitan]

My hands aren't wringing at all.  At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation.  I look forward to the day.   

I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon.  As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.

It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested. 

There is a big difference- Average Attendance.  MVC= 7512; HL= 2893.

My guess is that the MVC is estimating that the Chicago market will fill either UIC or Loyola arenas full of visiting (MVC) fans that live in Chicago. 

That being said (even as a guess), UIC makes more sense because The Pavilion holds @ 7k and only sold 46% of capacity this year.

If this is the reason, then possible Loyola is finally willing to make a commitment to build a bigger arena. 

Side Note:  If we lost Butler/Loyola and replace them with Oakland- then LeCrone should be fired, unless all of the Presidents are as clueless as him.

[bbtds]

http://horizonleague.org/blog/loyola-leads-mccafferty-trophy-standings-heading-into-spring-championships.html

Loyola Leads McCafferty Trophy Standings Heading Into Spring Championships

Maybe there is a lot more potential then we thought. This board always poo-poos everything that goes against Valpo. Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!

[valpopal]

Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!

If the MVC replaces the loss of Creighton with Loyola and the HL replaces Loyola with Oakland or a better team, then the MVC will be weakened and the HL strengthened. Therefore, the two leagues will not be the same as they were "last week or even a couple of days ago," and the separation between the MVC and the HL will be diminished quite a bit.

[vu72]

Ready and able sir...

[agibson]

MVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013

Source?

[agibson]

Just to cover all bases, if Loyola is jumping immediately, I presume they'll be paying a penalty like Butler did (also the teams who left the CAA early to jump to the A-10 last year -- it's all the rage these days)?

I don't know about championships.  It seems a little mean spirited to cut them out of this year's.

But, they're presumably forfeiting their HL NCAA shares. (I wonder if they'll get any of the MVC historical shares?)  And, there's now the $1M Horizon League exit fee, much more than what Butler had to pay.

[isu87]

MVC is only taking one school (it's official) for 2013

Source?



"I think this is it for '13-'14. I think there's some interest in discussion expansion of the conference in the future, but at best, it's discussion at this point. No decisions have been made on that," Prettyman said.
[/size]
http://tribstar.com/breakingnews/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC


now this isn't saying it's only going to be one, but it's not likely to be more than one. I am a grad of Indy State BTW. Still think Valpo will be in line in the future for the MVC.

[classof2014]

For the MVC this isn't the best move, if they only go with one team and that team being Loyola the only thing they get is increased attendance at Loyola games... I can tell ya most of those fans aren't Loyola fans. If this is the only team they take, either this year or in the upcoming years this is a terrible move. Picking up a team that has been a bottom feeder in the Horizon League, which is nowhere near as strong as the MVC. If Loyola wins 3 games next season in the MVC I will consider it a success. Based on this I don't believe the MVC is done adding teams and won't be surprised if there is still expansion left for this season but there will definitely be an expansion next year. If not I don't understand the move... helps Loyola increase attendance and that's pretty much it.

The next scenario, which is the best for Valpo in my opinion is that they get included into the MVC in the next season along with ORU. I don't see this happen, but I've scene crazier things work out. For example, didn't see Loyola being the MVC first choice in teams to replace with a top-25 Creighton team. But if Valpo moves in with ORU, this will create 2 divisions, each having 3 public and 3 private schools in each. And a pretty easily divided East and West divisions. If this expansion doesn't happen this season it will happen next.

The next best scenario is, the Horizon League replacing a poor Loyola squad with a pretty decent Oakland squad. It's like saying I have 3 quarters and you have 1 five dollar bill, since I have 3 and you have 1, I'll trade you my three for your one and it'll all work out in the end.... Getting Oakland for Loyola will be a steal in my opinion at it'll strengthen the Horizon League pretty significantly.

The final scenario, is the worst case scenario. Which is the Horizon does jack with LeCrone's we'll see where the dominoes fall attitude. Teams don't just go to a league, the league has to go visit the school and convince them to leave. For Oakland this shouldn't be too hard but if you say you want them and don't act upon them. It gives Oakland a bad impression and they'll stay put in the Horizon. Obvious for Oakland the moves makes sense both academically and geographically. But if LeCrone's just sits on his a$$ all day and does jack about it then nothing will happen...

I have a fear that we might be in a 8 team Horizon League next season, and if we don't get out soon for a better league whether it be the MVC or elsewhere we'll be in deep trouble.

[valpotx]

LUC has also committed millions of dollars to both athletic and student/academic upgrades recently, something that Valpo hasn't done. 

How quickly we forget if we believe Valpo hasn't committed millions of dollars to athletic and student/academic upgrades.  It's well above $100 million in the past decade or so:  Christoper Center, Harre Union, Kallay-Duesenberg, Kade House, engineering addition, College of Arts & Sciences building, plus renovation of Meier for education.  Go back 4-5 years more and add $8 million for renovation of Guild-Memorial.  Obviously this doesn't help the athletics program as much as most of us would like, but the programt has benefited from construction of the Schrage wing, adding turf to Brown Field, construction of a softball stadium, improvements to baseball (club house, etc.), new tennis courts, new basketball floor, etc.  Yes, we need a field house, improvements to the ARC and the long-awaited track, but let's not forget that we've made some progress.  And, without looking up the figures, I doubt that Loyola has a larger endowment than Valpo as valpotx stated, although that probably has little bearing on athletics support in either case (although it obviously supports the overall institutional budget).  Also, if no one has noted it by now, today's Chicago Tribunes says Loyola has confirmed that it will join the MVC next year.  No mention of other teams.

Before you say that someone is wrong, you should do your research, as it is a very large difference in LU's favor:

Loyola - $430 million in endowment as of 2013 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_University_Chicago

Valpo - $140 million in endowment as of 2010, and I remember reading somewhere that it has only gone up slightly - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valparaiso_University

[valpotx]

From the UIC board, a very well composed, rational response to the whole MVC/Loyola thing.  I think it provides good food for thought:

The news appears to be in and the result is a big "so what??" No need to gnash any teeth over not being offered or such. Any report we saw gave the indication we were not LOOKING to leave the Horizon League in any event. We weren't seeking a new home at all. We just became a contestant in a contest run by the MVC to see if someone could meet their needs with a vacated spot.

It is Loyola.... It's not like that's a really big deal at all. If the MVC was looking for Chicago exposure they aren't going to get a lot at all..... The Trib reported the move in a space smaller than most classified ads inside. No story, no interviews, no nothing. Loyola people have complained about the same " lack of local coverage" we have over time. Loyola doesn't guarantee the MVC front page coverage or any sort of special treatment, at all. They are going to have to WIN games, often, which they haven't been able to sustain for a long time. I think it's a sad situation when you are looking for "opponents" fans to fill "your" stadium on game day. That's exposure???

Their basketball recent history has been quite dismal. They DO own an NCAA title, but well before most people here were born.... No relevance here except the MVC can put that on any marketing pieces they produce. Have they had one legit NCAA title won by current members? They have no baseball D1 baseball team, lack real media presence in Chicago but are the "private" school some here thought was important to the MVC for some unsubstantiated reasoning.

I am NOT disappointed, at all........ Why should we be?? We have an automatic berth in the NCAA Tournament by winning the Horizon league title, guaranteed. I think we all expect to be in the running for that on a regular basis. If we achieve that, which is very doable, we negate any reasons for even wanting to be considered in the MVC. Let's just concentrate on being the best we can be where we are and let the rest take care of itself. I'll bet we are more successful than Loyola over time right where we are.......

It's not that UIC didn't try hard enough or had some bad break or bad news "blow it" for us. None of that applies since WE weren't the instigators of the process. I don't care why the MVC chose Loyola at all. We ARE quite different and have many strengths they. and others, don't have but they obviously weren't what the MVC valued.....

I'm also not going to push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola... Why, to create the same furor that the MVC created with their search?? A knee jerk reaction is not necessary or warranted.....

Let's unbunch our panties, if any are, and focus on our school and seasons ahead..... And let the league office make policy and line up decisions for our benefit. If necessary.



I don't know about anyone else, but I'm ready to move on.

It is a pretty rational post by the UIC fan...except the part where he/she mentions that they compete for the title each year  .

Also, I would have to imagine that Loyola's softball team will be excluded from the NCAA tournament in only giving 2 months notice before leaving the HL.  That works to Valpo's favor, as they are a pretty good team.

[a3uge]

My hands aren't wringing at all.  At this same time next year, the 2 conferences will be essentially equals (especially if they take both UIC and Loyola) and Valpo will be in a position to thumb its nose at a future invitation.  I look forward to the day.   

I also don't see any difference between the MVC and the Horizon.  As 78crusader pointed out, Loyola will now face travel to Wichita, etc., while Valpo will continue to manage their budget by having a league that allows bus travel.

It hasn't been mentioned anywhere, but given all these facts, maybe Valpo wasn't snubbed ... maybe they told the MVC they weren't interested. 

Side Note:  If we lost Butler/Loyola and replace them with Oakland- then LeCrone should be fired, unless all of the Presidents are as clueless as him.

So stay at 8? What schools do you expect him to add that are better than Oakland? If Belmont and Murray State don't want to leave the OVC then fire the commissioner. Okay.

We have people saying LeCrone should be fired for not acting aggressive enough to replace Butler.... But if he replaces them with one of the three schools in a lower rpi conference with a decent rpi (with it fitting geographically),  it's still not good enough. Seriously name the schools that he should replace Butler with. If it's staying at 8, argue that staying at 8 is in the best interest of the HL. If it's to add Belmont/Murray State, argue that. If it's to add Davidson, argue geography is irrelevant. Just don't throw stones and pretend there's a dozen schools out there that fit somewhat close geographically and are decent programs in bad conferences. There's not.

----

Everyone just needs to examine the Midwest conferences as they are right now.

Mac -  football based. They will make decisions based on football. Not ever going to poach from them. YSU could leave for them.

MVC - best mid major conference in the country. Even without creighton. No school is going to leave for the HL. If Wichita State leaves, still doubt anyone would go. Their weakest program was rumored to want out, but I just don't see it.

Summit - We will be in position to poach their best schools if they fit geographically for years to come. As long as the schools are so sprawled, no HL team is going to leave for them.

OVC - logical grounds to poach from, but could be a stretch geographically. Belmont and Murray State haven't shown signs of wanting to move. I don't blame Belmont for staying put - why pay a large exit fee two years in a row to play teams all the way in green Bay... It's probably a hard sell for them.

A10 - no Butler and likely no Slu or Dayton in the future, the A10 will probably stay out of the Midwest. The landing spot for these schools would be the MVC. Would be extremely difficult to land any of these schools.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

If anything, being in a league that will undoubtedly take a huge RPI (and conference reputation) hit from losing Creighton and "gaining" Loyola should make moving to the HL more attractive than ever.

Our next move needs to be one of the following:

1. LeCrone announces enough GOOD additions to the HL to get us to 10 or 12.

or

2. The HL fires LeCrone and hires someone who can achieve goal number 1. LeCrone has had enough time to get this done.

When your main selling point is a women's college basketball coach who hasn't coached a game in her life, then you know it was a questionable move.

Great players don't always make great coaches anyways. Ask Forest Gregg, Bart Starr... See how Jordan is doing managing his team.

And finally, women's college basketball is irrelevant to conference switches. Loyola doesn't even have their own wikipedia page.

Great. Post.  Amen.

Briefly, the trade of Loyola for Oakland hurts the MVC strength and helps the HL.

Not really sure what all the hand-wringing is about.  We are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con, not only in terms of the level of competition, but also in terms of travel for our athletes.

This is like my favorite post of yours like ever.

Perhaps if athletics wasn't seen as ancillary major ARC renovations would have been included with academic infrastructure.

I am not trying to call you out at all so please do not take my comments the wrong way, but I think as fun as they are athletics have to be ancillary to the idea of a university, or else Paris, Oxford, the Gregorian, et al. are only equivocally "universities".

Valpo - $140 million in endowment as of 2010, and I remember reading somewhere that it has only gone up slightly

2011--$164 million...if 17.1% return in a year is "only slightly" I have some money I'd like you to invest...(but yes they're more well-endowed.)
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/valparaiso-university-1842

Everyone just needs to examine the Midwest conferences as they are right now.

Also a great post.  There are a limited amount of neighborhoods to which we CAN move, let alone WANT to, and the grass isn't always greener.

[IndyValpo]

So stay at 8?

You do realize we can't stay at 8.  We only have 5 baseball playing schools we have to get back to at least six.  I guess we can add NJIT as a baseball only.  Wasn't it the league office that was placing a timetable on additions, i.e. setting up expectations.

We are still in the Horizon League, which is leaps and bounds better than the Mid-Con

With the exception of Detroit isn't the Horizon the Mid-Con?

[wh]

This board always poo-poos everything that goes against Valpo. Last week or even a couple days ago the MVC was the greatest thing on earth when it was perceived that Valpo would get an invite to the MVC. Now that it seems Valpo won't get an invite the MVC is no better than the HL. Please!!!!

To my knowledge this is the first time in all of this realignment frenzy that a conference has chosen to add a new member based on location over proven, sustained performance in either men's basketball or men's football, whichever the conference is seeking to enhance.  In fact, conferences have gone way out of their footprint just to get the best available programs.  It doesn't make the MVC decision wrong, but this "unique" approach is naturally puzzling to outside observers. Everyone recognized that the MVC was going to take a hit when its best program left, regardless of who they added.  The strange part is that they are willfully taking a bigger hit (at least in the short term) than they would have had to.  Supposedly, they are taking some sort of a long view over several more obvious short term solutions.  Only time will tell whether this is strategic genius or a major strategic blunder. 

At least for the time being the MVC-Creighton+Loyola is not the same conference it was a week ago, and in all likelihood it won't be the same a year from now (from a basketball image standpoint) as it is today. It has opened itself up for this kind of criticism in the short run by this seemingly risky choice.  The MVC commissioner has stuck his neck out there about as far as it can go with this decision, and it will be all up to a school with bad track record to come through for him, without any control or authority to make it happen.  A very high risk strategy, to say the least. 

[VULB#62]

Hearing now that Davidson is going to the A-10 (different string) and listening to the previous discussions, I lament the fact that, apparently, due to (1) not being directly smack dab in the middle of the City of Chicago market and (2) less than adequate facilities, Valpo, while being on the periphery of conference upgrade discussions (as in "also mentioned"), is not a predominant player in the conversation. Performance-wise these last three years, it certainly should have been. It's too bad that subpar facilities (compared to the Gentile Arena and the Norville Center) preclude us from being attractive.  Had we comparable facilities, it would have been nice to at least been given serious consideration and, maybe, even having the opportunity to accept or reject a move to the MVC.

I do concur with some that, if Oakland and the alphabet schools are the replacements for Butler and Loyola, that we are back to the old Mid-Con days (with a little less travel).  It just appears that the deafening silence from the HL office is telling.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

With the exception of Detroit isn't the Horizon the Mid-Con?

while you're not quoting me, but rather quoting me quoting someone else, i can see how one might get confused.

regardless, as I was quoting it approvingly, what you're saying is "With the exception of Ringo Starr, aren't the Beatles the Quarrymen?"

Just because things are similar doesn't mean they are the same.

Just ask Pete Best.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

You do realize we can't stay at 8. 

Also, not jumping on you again, but you are attacking a3uge for supposedly holding a position he was in fact attacking.

[classof2014]

Still wouldn't be surprised if something is announced by Valpo this summer after the softball/baseball seasons are over. Chances are if Valpo were to announce them leaving this would jeopardize both of their seasons. Although this might be more painful to sit through and play the waiting game, it is the most logical choice in order to give the seniors a chance to capture another HL title and an NCAA tournament birth.

So far nothing that I have read says this is going to be the only move by the MVC this summer, I have not heard of them rejecting Valpo, all that we have heard is that Loyola has accepted an offer from the MVC, nothing more and nothing less. Still wouldn't be surprised to hear of more changes in the future.

[vu72]

Hearing now that Davidson is going to the A-10 (different string) and listening to the previous discussions, I lament the fact that, apparently, due to (1) not being directly smack dab in the middle of the City of Chicago market and (2) less than adequate facilities, Valpo, while being on the periphery of conference upgrade discussions (as in "also mentioned"), is not a predominant player in the conversation. Performance-wise these last three years, it certainly should have been. It's too bad that subpar facilities (compared to the Gentile Arena and the Norville Center) preclude us from being attractive.  Had we comparable facilities, it would have been nice to at least been given serious consideration and, maybe, even having the opportunity to accept or reject a move to the MVC.

I do concur with some that, if Oakland and the alphabet schools are the replacements for Butler and Loyola, that we are back to the old Mid-Con days (with a little less travel).  It just appears that the deafening silence from the HL office is telling.

This seems odd to me. So the Gentile Center, with 1000 fewer seats than the ARC makes them more attractive?  Does more comfortable seating. better bathrooms and better hotdog stands really make the difference? We know that schools in the A-10 have worse arenas so it has to be more than just the ARC.  Picking Loyola because of the Gentile Center versus their very bad record is just mystifying to me.

[valpopal]

So far nothing that I have read says this is going to be the only move by the MVC this summer, I have not heard of them rejecting Valpo, all that we have heard is that Loyola has accepted an offer from the MVC, nothing more and nothing less. Still wouldn't be surprised to hear of more changes in the future.

Indiana State Director of Athletics Ron Prettyman Gives Details:

Prettyman said the MVC presidents voted to approve Loyola on Friday morning. Prettyman was unaware of what the vote breakdown was, but to secure admission to the league, at least seven of the nine MVC schools had to vote for Loyola.

Efforts to reach MVC commissioner Doug Elgin were unsuccessful.

There has been media speculation that Loyola's Horizon League Chicago cohorts — Illinois-Chicago — could be joining the MVC with the Ramblers.

"I think this is it for '13-'14. I think there's some interest in discussing expansion of the conference in the future, but at best, it's discussion at this point. No decisions have been made on that," Prettyman said.

http://tribstar.com/collegesports/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC

[VULB#62]

This seems odd to me. So the Gentile Center, with 1000 fewer seats than the ARC makes them more attractive?  Does more comfortable seating. better bathrooms and better hotdog stands really make the difference? We know that schools in the A-10 have worse arenas so it has to be more than just the ARC.  Picking Loyola because of the Gentile Center versus their very bad record is just mystifying to me.

It may be the combination of both facilities.  Both are 'new' and sparkling - quite impressive.  But I agree, it had to be more than facilities and the Chicago market (heck, the drive for Chicago MVC alums is, what, maybe 50 miles to Valpo?  Plus the parking is not expensive).  Could it be the much larger enrollment that matches up better with all the other MVC schools except E'Ville?   BTW in losing Creighton, the MVC lost it's biggest arena (18.3K) and replaced it with its now smallest (4.4K).  The next smallest is NIowaU at 6.6K. 

So to summarize, the MVC gets:
The smallest venue in the conference by 2.2K seats
The "new" worst RPI (LUC 2013 RPI was 222; the lowest in MVC in 2013 was 203 -- PLUS they lost Creighton's 24)
No baseball team

I guess that makes sense   

[valpotx]

It almost looks like Loyola could be a compromise from the public schools to the private ones.  I imagine that the private schools are pushing for more like-minded institutions, but the public schools want someone that is well funded and committed to athletics investment.  They get a 15,000 student population, and $430 million endowment.  I believe that Bradley, Evansville, and Drake are all between 3,000-6,000 students, while the public schools are around Loyola's population.  Notice that Loyola is already added on Wiki as a future member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference

[classof2014]

I don't understand this at all! One of the articles acclaimed to Loyola's winning tradition??? 4 seasons with +.500 records since their last NCAA tourney bid all the way back in 1985!!!!! That is pathetic! One of the worst basketball programs in the country during that time span. To compare Loyola with UIC in that time span UIC has had 14 winning seasons, 3 NCAA births, and 1 NIT. Compare that to Valpo's 17 winning seasons, 8 NCAA tourney bids, and 2 NIT bids. Don't understand how LU was the better choice.

Maybe it was all a big misunderstanding... Maybe the voted for VU and wrote VU and the V looked like an L so it looked like LU... So Loyola thinks they're in.... just sayin'