Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[classof2014]

What I would like to see happen in the next few years: I would love to see a new HL team along with Valpo step up as a strong mid-major program. Right now I believe that team could be Wright State, they are extremely well coached and greatly overachieved last season. I would love to see the the HL take in two decent mid-major schools as well to bring our numbers up to 10. Whether that be from Oakland, or we might have to look outside our demographics. I think we could stretch our search into Western New York and and into the Tennessee Valley we can find a team. We can't just stay within our current geographic lines of as far north as Green Bay, as far west as UIC, as far south as Wright State, and as far east as Youngstown State. This greatly limits our pool of teams to choose from. If you include Western New York, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and Tennessee this greatly increases our opportunity to get another school that has a decent basketball program to join.

If we want to get a Belmont or a Murray State we need to show vast improvements this season, I think we need 3 or 4 teams playing the NCAA/NIT when the season comes to a close. I think the best way to improve the league is for the remaining teams to step up and take the reigns. Whenever the Horizon has lost a team because they outgrew the league it seemed that a new team stepped up. Hopefully Valpo will be that team and have a bunch of teams below them that are strong competition year-in-year-out. I believe Valpo is ready to take that next step and wouldn't be surprised if: Wright State, Cleveland State, and Youngstown State turn some heads next season.

Unfortunately the MVC is starting to look like it's out of the question... at least for right now. So we have to make the best with what we have. If we can develop some good teams within our own conference then, I have no problem with missing out on the MVC. I think if we can expand our Horizons and look outside our demographics we will get at least one bite from a number of potential teams in the areas I listed above.

[valpopal]

We have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.

WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.

Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.

If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.

It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools.  However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.

This is a disappointing response. You're assuming there's a dozen magical schools in the Midwest that are in crappy conferences but are ready for prince charming to sweep them off their feet if the commissioner does some public sweet talking. These schools don't exist. There's only 3 decent enough schools from lower conferences that fit geographically and would have a positive impact on the Horizon. There's not a school out there that has said "well, gosh, I wish the Horizon League commissioner would have spoken better in a quick chat with Paul Oren and rushed last year to add Oakland University, then I would have definitely joined the Horizon by now!" Saying Loyola wouldn't have left if Oakland / IPFW / IUPUI had quickly been added is absurd.

I'm glad we're not giving you a salary to identify replacement schools for the Horizon because you can't even throw out a single name on an Internet forum, let alone argue why they would make a decent replacement for Butler. I've even given you the names of the two most logical schools worth adding, and outside of 'have better public relations' I haven't heard a single idea of how exactly these schools are supposed to come on board to the Horizon when they are either 1. Declining the MVC or 2. Holding out for the MVC. The Horizon League does not have any leverage with these schools, and implying that some public statements make the difference in the situation is ignorant to the entire conference switching situation.

That is the funniest comment I have read in quite a while. You find my response disappointing, but you do not quote my whole comment that specifically points out how the inaction I mention has less to do with picking schools but more with publicly showing leadership, inspiring confidence, and encouraging support. Plus, you attribute a number of assumptions to me that I never made.

Yet, you express no disappointment with the person who has the responsibility to demonstrate leadership, get in front of a story, and maintain the league's image, which unfortunately has been diminished the last year or so. I have had the experience of being paid a salary to aid with public relations, and nobody who knows anything about public relations can defend the Horizon League's lack of control with its slipping public image, especially in the time since Butler left.   

[wh]

It's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program.  I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee.  That must have been an embarrassing moment. 

Thank God for Inman's or the bowling team would probably be using Wii to practice. 

[wh]

LeCrone finally says something:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html

[a3uge]

We have all been ready to move on for more than a year, ever since Butler left, but it is the league office that hasn't made a move. Therefore, I think it is laughable to suggest we should not "push the Horizon League to quickly act to replace Loyola...." The same advice was offered a year ago about replacing Butler, and thus far we can see little as a result of waiting.

WITH WHAT SCHOOL?? So last year if we pushed to replace Butler with Oakland, Loyola would be thinking twice about this? That's just absurd. There were reports that the HL was targeting Murray State and Belmont. Both aren't budging. Both aren't even interested in the MVC. Sorry I'm beating this dead horse, but it's just ridiculous everyone is attacking the Horizon League for their inaction, but never explain what the desired action should be. Why would they rush to add Oakland if they were targeting Belmont/Murray State or even Evansville to get back to 10 members? Is Oakland still available? Yes. Are they going anywhere else? No. Will any school departing/arriving in the Horizon base their decision based on Oakland being in the league? No way.

Remember, Oakland is like that mediocre looking girl that you can take to the prom because she's really into you. She has a date, but would immediately ditch him for your loving arms... but why not keep pushing for that hot girl in your biology class. Last year we were sitting at 9. I feel we were holding out hope for someone better looking, but now prom is coming up and soon we'll have to settle on good ol reliable.

If Loyola leaving is true, the Horizon could add Oakland to bring the league back to 9, or they can stay at 8 for another year (baseball won't be affected yet) and still try to get Murray State and Belmont. I don't think sitting at 8 would be all that unreasonable. Maybe if you add Oakland you could still end up with Belmont/Murray State. Please argue WHAT SCHOOL you want to replace Butler and, if it's Oakland that's going to bring you up to 9, why it's more important to have a 9 team league immediately, rather than holding out hope for a Murray State/Belmont combination to bring us to 10 (or an Oakland to keep it an even number). I'm not arguing one way or the other whether or not we should have 8 or 9 teams next year, but if you're going to criticize the league office for some action they haven't taken, at least explain what exactly they should have taken.

It is not my job to identify schools for the Horizon League. That is what the folks in the league office are getting paid pretty good salaries to do. Give me their salaries and I will do their jobs. Every other conference with openings has been able to entice top teams from lower conferences. Every other league that has lost members has acted to replace those schools. In fact, they all were proactive, aggressive, and positive in comments to the media even before picking schools.  However, in the past year since Butler left there has been nothing public from the Horizon League.

This is a disappointing response. You're assuming there's a dozen magical schools in the Midwest that are in crappy conferences but are ready for prince charming to sweep them off their feet if the commissioner does some public sweet talking. These schools don't exist. There's only 3 decent enough schools from lower conferences that fit geographically and would have a positive impact on the Horizon. There's not a school out there that has said "well, gosh, I wish the Horizon League commissioner would have spoken better in a quick chat with Paul Oren and rushed last year to add Oakland University, then I would have definitely joined the Horizon by now!" Saying Loyola wouldn't have left if Oakland / IPFW / IUPUI had quickly been added is absurd.

I'm glad we're not giving you a salary to identify replacement schools for the Horizon because you can't even throw out a single name on an Internet forum, let alone argue why they would make a decent replacement for Butler. I've even given you the names of the two most logical schools worth adding, and outside of 'have better public relations' I haven't heard a single idea of how exactly these schools are supposed to come on board to the Horizon when they are either 1. Declining the MVC or 2. Holding out for the MVC. The Horizon League does not have any leverage with these schools, and implying that some public statements make the difference in the situation is ignorant to the entire conference switching situation.

That is the funniest comment I have read in quite a while. You find my response disappointing, but you do not quote my whole comment that specifically points out how the inaction I mention has less to do with picking schools but more with publicly showing leadership, inspiring confidence, and encouraging support. Plus, you attribute a number of assumptions to me that I never made.

Yet, you express no disappointment with the person who has the responsibility to demonstrate leadership, get in front of a story, and maintain the league's image, which unfortunately has been diminished the last year or so. I have had the experience of being paid a salary to aid with public relations, and nobody who knows anything about public relations can defend the Horizon League's lack of control with its slipping public image, especially in the time since Butler left.

No, what's hilarious is you thinking three paragraphs of PR criticism makes the difference between magically inventing Midwestern schools with great athletic programs to add to the Horizon, and having a bad public image where teams like Loyola are dropping out because of it.

Butler left and we're around the same spot conference wise as we were when we left off. Basketball-wise RPI is extremely similar. Now suddenly there's this big public image problem? With who? These magical schools that want in? The teams in the Horizon that would have improved their athletic departments had it not been for some crappy upper management?

And you still don't have a logical solution in terms of what schools should be added, or if not, an explanation of why we should remain at 8, aside from hoping that the commissioner instills enough confidence in the schools in order to have better programs.

[valpopal]

LeCrone finally says something:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/19499500-419/loyolas-move-to-missouri-valley-triggers-change-for-horizon-league.html

More of saying nothing from LeCrone: "I would anticipate before July 1 we would have an official announcement on our membership for 2013-2014."  I certainly hope so since that is the deadline for all leagues.

[valpopal]

Now suddenly there's this big public image problem? With who?

If you refuse to see that the Horizon League has a public image problem, even within the ranks of its own fans at all the team forums, then I can't help you.

[crusaderjoe]

West

North Dakota State
North Dakota
Oral Roberts
Denver
Green Bay
Milwaukee
UIC

East

Valpo
Youngstown
Detroit
Cleveland St.
Wright St.
Drexel (or Murray)
Oakland  (or Belmont)

or go:

UWGB
UWM
UIC
VU
UDM
YSU
WSU
CSU
Drexel
Belmont
ORU
Oakland

[bbtds]

It's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program.  I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee.  That must have been an embarrassing moment. 

I know someone who sited that very moment before it happened.

Yes, I'm sure the MVC officials will not miss the large area around Brown Field that doesn't have a track and ask when we plan to build the track. I can just see Mark L trying to explain why a track has taken so long to build. That won't go over well at all. I'm sure Mark L is making up his patten response about how that "track of dreams" will now happen when Valpo ties it to a move to the MVC.

"Yeah, sure, right...."

Well, the MVC didn't believe it, did they?

[bbtds]

It is embarrassing to think you are making the choice of your date to the prom and then find out that a person who you thought was less attractive was picked before you by the person you thought you were choosing for a date to the prom. Very degrading and very embarrassing!

[vu72]

Ok guys, you are correct, the administration has made all the wrong choices.  We could have had a new fieldhouse by now, a brand new basketball arena, a track and of course a _______ (fill in your own personal ax you want ground here).

So I'm wondering, which one of the  following would you have not done to accomplish these athletic dreams which as you look at the campus would now be needed to be built?  The Library (the old one was just fine in today's academic world--right?)  The Union (making food in all the old dorms was working fine, wasn't it? We could have continued to have alumni gatherings in Hilltop couldn't we?) The new Arts and Science building (Huegli was really attractive after all--I particularly liked the window air conditioners)  The Chapel renovations (yeah, the windows were actually falling out but religion has lost its way in today's world--basketball baby!!)

When you think about it, why did we bother to tear down Baldwin or DeMotte? Kids now days need more excercise and the windows did still open!  Oh, and that pesky endowment.  What good is 140 million doing for us anyway?  Why wouldn't just a 100 million do?

Come on you financial wizz kids!  Tell us, Tell us!!!

[IndyValpo]

When you think about it, why did we bother to tear down Baldwin or DeMotte?

Personally DeMotte was my favorite building.  The business school moved my junior year.  Which building on old campus did you enter on opposite sides if you were going to the first floor as opposed to the second or third floor?  I had a speech class in there.  Loved that old building as well.

[IndyValpo]

It's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program.  I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee.  That must have been an embarrassing moment. 

Since not all MVC schools run track, I would guess it had zero influence. 

Here is a list of sponsored sports in the MVC, most schools do not participate in all,

Teams in Missouri Valley Conference competition Sport
                   Men's Women's
Baseball              8        -
Basketball          10       10
Cross Country       9       10
Golf                    9       10
Soccer                7        7
Softball               -       10
Swimming & Diving -       5
Tennis                 6       8
Track and Field     7        8
Volleyball             -        10

They get to seven mens soccer teams by adding Central Arkansas and SIU-E

[wh]

It's pretty hard to defend an administration that hasn't so much as built a track for it's track program.  I wonder who had to try to spin that for the selection committee.  That must have been an embarrassing moment. 

Since not all MVC schools run track, I would guess it had zero influence. 

Here is a list of sponsored sports in the MVC, most schools do not participate in all,

Teams in Missouri Valley Conference competition Sport
                   Men's Women's
Baseball              8        -
Basketball          10       10
Cross Country       9       10
Golf                    9       10
Soccer                7        7
Softball               -       10
Swimming & Diving -       5
Tennis                 6       8
Track and Field     7        8
Volleyball             -        10

They get to seven mens soccer teams by adding Central Arkansas and SIU-E

I could just imagine ml and company saying, "Let's not bring up track.  Maybe they won't notice we don't have one.  After all, only 70% of the men's programs and 80% of the women's program's in the MVC even participate in track."  Yeah, right. 

Not only do I believe it was noticed, it very easily could have become the icing on the cake that easily disqualified us from consideration. It is not unreasonable at all to think that someone said, "They talked about being committed to future facility improvements, but they don't even so much as have a track for their track team?  They definitely don't walk the talk."

I seriously doubt there is another university in the United States that participates in track that doesn't have a track. If someone knows of one, I'd love to hear about it.  That's how incredibly bizarre this is. 

[vusupporter]

If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.

[classof2014]

I don't believe that facilities had anything to do with it! I think Elgin had an idea of who he wanted before he even started the visits. Loyola was probably their top choice before it began. Don't get me wrong Valpo does need to make improvements but I don't believe it had anything to do with the decision. Unfortunately Valparaiso is 50 miles to the southeast of Chicago, compared to Loyola which is in the nicest part of Chicago, that was the deciding factor. Elgin wanted Chicago and Loyola fit what they wanted even though they have only had 4 winning seasons in the past 25 years... Guess that's not important when it comes to athletics...

[VULB#62]

If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.

Well........................... no and yes.  There is no mention of a Loyola Rambler track on their athletic facility website, but they have a M&W T&F program with 5 coaches.  I said yes, because if you go to Google Maps and look at the campus, just north of the Gentile Arena, there's an oblong 2 lane asphalt track with a turf infield.  It's labeled as the Loyola Track, but I think it's more for joggers.  Those of you who remember the old cinder track at Brown Field would remember how long the straightaways were and how close they were to the football playing field, not to mention the tight curves.  The LUC track reminds me of that.

[IndyValpo]

I seriously doubt there is another university in the United States that participates in track that doesn't have a track. If someone knows of one, I'd love to hear about it.  That's how incredibly bizarre this is.

Agreed but this is not why we did not get picked anymore than the fact that Loyola doesn't even play baseball did not hurt them. It is nice to complain about and we should have a track but....

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I know someone who sited that very moment before it happened.

Um, guessing probably everyone sited that--as in right around the football field, I would imagine.


Interesting that what the MSU president (Smart) cited was not just facilities but also budget; I will quote but add enumeration to bring out what I'm reading from it:

"I had never been to that campus before we went on our site visit. It is incredibly impressive," Smart said of Loyola, on Chicago's north side with Lake Michigan nearby. "The school is extremely strong academically and they had by far the best athletic facilities of any school we looked at."

1) campus facilities
2) location
3) athletic facilities
4) academic programs (he cited them in the opposite order but maybe didn't mean it )

Smart said Loyola is showing a renewed commitment to its basketball program with hiring of Porter Moser – a former head coach at Illinois State – before last season. The school made a splash over the weekend by hiring former Sheryl Swoopes, a former All-American at Texas Tech and star WNBA player, as its new women's basketball coach.

5) commitment to stop sucking so bad

"They were more financially committed to putting money into athletics than any other school we looked at and have a plan to do that," Smart said. "In the next three years, they plan to have an athletic budget of $15 million, which is more than ours."

6) money.

Getting a foothold into the Chicago market also was a major factor. Smart said an annual opportunity to connect with MSU's alumni base at sporting events "is huge" as it is for the Valley in terms of earning new sponsorship opportunities from that area.

2) again, as applies to Chicago alums and possible sponsorship

Well, how do we stack up?
1) Thanks to the building spree, we are not that far behind in campus facilities, if at all.  20 years ago?  Not a chance of being in the conversation. 
2) Not a whole lot that can be done about this factor.  At least we're close.
3) Well, everybody knows this one by now, right?
4) Speaking of this number, US News blows but it's the most immediately helpful:  we're #4 in MW regional universities; Loyola is #106 in national universities.  A draw unless you want a particular program.
5) we already don't suck in major sports.
6)  Here's the thing:  they spend $10.4 million a year (279 in DI); and 18% of that, or $1.9 mil, in MBB (164 in DI).
We already spend $13 million a year (220 in DI); and 14% of that, or $1.8 million, in MBB (171 in DI).
We're already spending the money.  They accepted promises that LUC would.
Thus:  either we didn't promise the MVC facilities, or we did and they didn't believe us like they believed Loyola when they said they would spend.

(Although, as anyone who has spent any time working in education, the federal government, or the Yankees organization can tell you, spending money does not at all guarantee good results.)

Olive branch:

Expansion likely is done for now, but Smart said the league could take a serious look at adding two more teams in the "next couple of three years." (sic; i assume he meant "or")

So best case scenario?
We stay in the HL and continue to excel.
Bryce stays around.
This crop of kids gets really good.
We get the rest, or at least almost all the Butler F4 money.
We finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.
Then in a couple of years the MVC door will open again and we'll have been able to see what the HL does (assuming something is done by then ) and we will be poised to do whatever we think is best for VU.

[VULB#62]

Great summary Apostle.  That pretty much puts a lid on it -- especially your best case.  It is what it is.   

And so we move on.  Hope the administration is keeping tabs on this stuff, however, and is learning from it.

[oklahomamick]

I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC. 

[a3uge]

I know for a fact after talking to a main source at ORU, ORU will not get invited to the MVC.

ORU, Valpo, as well as Belmont, Murray State, South Dakota State left off the MVC lineup for LOYOLA. Talk about an incompetent commissioner. They replaced Creighton with Loyola. Let that sink in. If you compare attendance,  facilities, RPI, any metric, it WOULD be the same as if the Horizon replaced Butler with IUPUI. If I were a Wichita State, I would be begging the MW to open the door for them. Why did they rush to add Loyola with better schools on the table? Why not wait a couple years to see if Loyola actually improves? I mean with all their potential and wonderful facilities, it shouldn't take very long to improve...

[bbtds]

If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.

You are correct. They do have 5 track coaches, though, and due to Butler leaving they are predicted #1 in the HL. There are an abundant number of university track facilities around Loyola. How many that aren't at high schools are around Valpo?

http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html

[a3uge]

If I'm not mistaken, Loyola doesn't have a track.

You are correct. They do have 5 track coaches, though, and due to Butler leaving they are predicted #1 in the HL. There are an abundant number of university track facilities around Loyola. How many that aren't at high schools are around Valpo?

http://www.loyolaramblers.com/sports/c-track/sched/loyc-c-track-sched.html

Good to also know they didn't chose Loyola based on their athletics website... jeez.

[bbtds]

We finally start executing athletic facility upgrades.

How will this happen when no money has been allocated for this? The board of directors may be blowing smoke up many @sses but they couldn't get anything past the MVC selection committee and it really showed. I feel sorry for ML because he was forced into this position. I'm sure many MVC officials probably laughed at their next meeting when discussing Valpo's facilities.

"When did they start promising those students a track?"

"Oh, my God, really?"