Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[StlVUFan]

Here's something concrete.  This is from 2009-10, so some things might well have changed post-Butler.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ilch/genrel/auto_pdf/HLHandbook.pdf

But, it had

"New members shall be admitted subject to the approval of two-thirds (2/3) of the Voting Directors of the Board; provided, however, a Voting Director may veto a membership invitation to an institution located geographically within twenty-five (25) miles of the member institution which the vetoing director represents. This veto, however, may be . overridden by an unanimous vote of the Voting Directors whose institutions they represent are located beyond twenty-five (25) miles from the prospective institution."

So, there is (or at least was) a veto.  It can be overridden.  It takes a unanimous vote of the members further than 25 miles away.

I remember now.  There was a discussion earlier, and someone said that Oakland is just beyond the 25-mile radius so that UDM could not veto but had to wrangle Loyola and Butler (both gone now!) into joining them with a No vote.

[FWalum]

I have to admit that I also heard from a pretty reliable source that the Oakland, Bellmont and Evansville move looked like it might happen for the HL.  I was also told that the one kink in this scenario was the Detroit veto and that they were still trying to keep Oakland out.  I was surprised that Evansville would look to get out of the MVC so personally I wondered about this report.  Who knows now what might happen, it appears that anything goes.  I would  not have thought that the MVC would replace Creighton with Loyola.

[agibson]

There was a discussion earlier, and someone said that Oakland is just beyond the 25-mile radius so that UDM could not veto but had to wrangle Loyola and Butler (both gone now!) into joining them with a No vote.

The blog mentioned earlier was suggesting that it would be within the radius as the crow flies, but outside the radius by road.  Not sure if there's been any official determination.

[wh]

LeCrone statement about Loyola leaving:

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html

"We will also continue to work proactively and aggressively on our internal and external growth plans."

I don't quite understand what "internal and external" means?  Any thoughts?

[Big D]

LeCrone statement about Loyola leaving:

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/horizon-league-statement-concerning-loyola-university-chicago.html

"We will also continue to work proactively and aggressively on our internal and external growth plans."

I don't quite understand what "internal and external" means?  Any thoughts?

Internal - get one or more of our current members to add baseball
External - add new members to the conference

[valpotx]

Hopefully Detroit adds baseball again, as it has been talked about for years.  I don't see GB or Cleveland State adding the sport anytime soon

[LaPorteAveApostle]

"internal growth" could also be qualitative not quantitative, as in, 'help some programs to stop stinkin' so hard'.

[crusaderjoe]

According to the article below, the Sun Belt approached Indiana State about joining their conference.  I'm not sure whether it was a football only discussion but I suppose an article like this, if it is accurate, at least begs the question of whom else the Sun Belt is talking to and whether those talks are for either full or partial membership.

http://m.tribstar.com/TTS/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=VoFcqbS8&full=true#display

I'm wondering whether it will be a wave of FCS move ups that will be the next cause of conference shifts over the next few years at the mid-major level.  Yes, the Big East and the A-10 will still most likely make moves but what after?  If FCS football is in play, IMO, the HL is better served at this time by moving toward the acceptance of non-football (or non scholarship football) schools.  A school like Drexel would make perfect sense in this regard, although they offer a few sports that the HL doesn't sponsor.  NKU, Belmont, Oral Roberts and Oakland would also make sense. Murray would be out in this analysis, but a non-scholarship football school like Morehead could be included in this discussion.  It will be interesting to see what, if anything the HL does.

[wh]

Post on Loyola board:


I will be truly interested to read my Pals' comments as I do NOT know the finer points of the game.  I do know this, A Coach will put in HIS system as much as he can, but is sometimes governed by what he has at any given time.  PM had Ben and Jordan--now he does not--OK, he is paid to coach-and WIN .  If he coaches well, against the MVC, with what he recruited, he will be doin' what he is paid to do.  I really have a good feeling about him, the team , and being im a Conference that is better than the NINTH of this past year.


How can we go on without wisdom such as this?   

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Well, now we know where 'Sader went.

[rink]

It's been barely mentioned, which surprises me, but my main reaction to all this is that the complexion of the Horizon league has now changed in way that no longer fits Valpo.  Just a couple years ago, the HL was a balanced, if not slightly disjointed, mix of large-ish state schools and smaller private schools.  With the exeunt of Butler and Loyola, the mix is now terribly off balance.  Adding Oakland would bring in yet another public school and make things worse.  State school, state school, state school, Valpo, state school, state school ... square peg, round hole ... (and it's not a superiority thing, just a "fit" thing).  And from a marketing standpoint, there's an image-by-association thing.  Will our "brand" and "identity" be too linked to public / state schools and lead to inaccurate perceptions and confusion away from whatever picture the university is spending precious publicity dollars to paint to the contrary?

30,000 - Milwaukee State (UWM)
27,000 - UIC
19,000 - Oakland
17,000 - Wright State
16,000 - Youngstown State
15,000 - Cleveland State
7,000 - UWGB
6,000 - Detroit Mercy
4,000 - Valpo

Sure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point.  A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong.  (Or six and five w/o Oakland.)  It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer.  I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.

[a3uge]

It's been barely mentioned, which surprises me, but my main reaction to all this is that the complexion of the Horizon league has now changed in way that no longer fits Valpo.  Just a couple years ago, the HL was a balanced, if not slightly disjointed, mix of large-ish state schools and smaller private schools.  With the exeunt of Butler and Loyola, the mix is now terribly off balance.  Adding Oakland would bring in yet another public school and make things worse.  State school, state school, state school, Valpo, state school, state school ... square peg, round hole ... (and it's not a superiority thing, just a "fit" thing).  And from a marketing standpoint, there's an image-by-association thing.  Will our "brand" and "identity" be too linked to public / state schools and lead to inaccurate perceptions and confusion away from whatever picture the university is spending precious publicity dollars to paint to the contrary?

30,000 - Milwaukee State (UWM)
27,000 - UIC
19,000 - Oakland
17,000 - Wright State
16,000 - Youngstown State
15,000 - Cleveland State
7,000 - UWGB
6,000 - Detroit Mercy
4,000 - Valpo

Sure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point.  A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong.  (Or six and five w/o Oakland.)  It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer.  I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.

Well what's your solution? The OVC is all public minus Belmont and the Summit is entirely public. So Valpo couldn't even move down a conference to fit that criteria unless they start playing teams in Texas or New York. At this point I don't care if Valpo is in the same conference as some commuter schools, I just don't want the Horizon to turn into a joke. If that means adding another public school like Murray State, I'm for it... as opposed to waiting for a private school from Tulsa to join so we can feel better about ourselves.

[StlVUFan]

Sure, someone's gotta be smallest, that's not the point.  A conference with seven public schools and six 15,000+ enrollments is not where we belong.  (Or six and five w/o Oakland.)  It was totally different with private schools Butler and Loyola in the mix, but their absence is a game changer.  I'm surprised this is not a bigger concern for everyone -- it is for me.

I'm afraid I have no idea why this should matter.  Saying the conference is imbalanced now is meaningless to me -- not because I can't do the math, I can -- but because I have no idea why the distinction you bring out is important.

Beyond athletics themselves, I'm ignorant of why conference affiliation is important.  All I care about is the strength of the basketball teams in the conference and how that impacts the Valpo basketball team.  I do actually care that the conference not lose its baseball autobid, but I have to admit I care less about that than I do about basketball.

[classof2014]

I could care less about us being the smallest and one of two private schools in the HL. Right now that doesn't matter, we need schools and fast. I'm not willing to wait for a small private school with good basketball to come to the HL. I think our two best options at this very moment might be Oakland which is a public school of 16,000 or Northern Kentucky a public school of 13,000. They both fall within the HL's demographics and the geography makes sense. Yes, Oral Roberts is a good, small, private school but it's all the way in Tulsa. Which is way too far and I wouldn't want them in the HL.

I don't care if Valpo is out numbered 1 to 5 by the public schools or if we're the smallest school in the conference. If you just look at DI schools in general a majority are way larger than Valpo and public. Let's not forget no matter where we go we'll probably be the smallest school, only 3,000 undergrads.

The HL needs to make a move and if they're limiting themselves to small private schools right now... what a terrible idea.

[crusadermoe]

The MVC taking Loyola is a punch in the gut to Valpo for many reasons.    The private-public balance is a small one, but not a major one.   

Valpo still has a strong enough national "brand" thanks to Axe and "the shot".   We can take a couple more years of commuter school associations.   Actually, for the next year or two, Valpo may BENEFIT from staying in the Horizon and its easier-than-MVC path to the NCAA.    To the extent that non-fan audiences follow conference standings as part of Valpo's "image", at least we are linked with WI, MI, OH, and IL.  The big problem is that we are risking losing out on the NCAA money a better conference would bring.

Stop and remember that as late as 2005 we were identified with Utah, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Kansas City schools......not to mention Gents, and T-Birds, and Kangaroos.....Oh My!!     The three lowest points in Valpo conference memories were worse than Loyola/MVC news.
1994-Valpo and Western Illinois are orphaned and left for dead.      2002 The Horizon adds a 10th school......drum rolll.....Youngstown St., a team Valpo beat regularly in most sports.    2003 or 2004    The Mid-Con rolls up its sleeves to replace YSU and adds........Centenary!
   

[valpo84]

The answer RINK is the A-10/14. It is filled with Private schools and it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools. We have lots more in common with the Duquenses, Daytons and St Joes than we do with WSU, YSU, UIC, etc. Our priorities and our funding are similar. I have said for years there needed to be a "Christian" based conference. The Catholic err New Big Least at least has that going for them and would be another option, although Butler and DePaul probably don't want another program that would consistently beat them (easy Butler defenders that's Sarcasm-intended ("SI"). However, that's why I am hesitant to go jumping to the MVC, it's another conference without a good balance of private/public right now.

[chef]

In a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

In a conference filled with large state schools, Duke (A small private school) has really struggled in basketball and other sports as well.

although not struggling enough for MY TASTES

[crusaderjoe]

The answer RINK is the A-10/14. It is filled with Private schools and it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools. We have lots more in common with the Duquenses, Daytons and St Joes than we do with WSU, YSU, UIC, etc. Our priorities and our funding are similar. I have said for years there needed to be a "Christian" based conference. The Catholic err New Big Least at least has that going for them and would be another option, although Butler and DePaul probably don't want another program that would consistently beat them (easy Butler defenders that's Sarcasm-intended ("SI"). However, that's why I am hesitant to go jumping to the MVC, it's another conference without a good balance of private/public right now.

If we're assuming that the A-10 is even considering looking this far west with SLU and UD's potential move to the Big East, forgetting facilities for a moment, from a geography standpoint what really hurts a school like VU as far as the A-10 is concerned is the lack of a close proximity private school travel partner, IMO. Valpo is geographically awkward in this analysis in that it is located in "small town Indiana" but is aligned with the monstrous Chicagoland metropolitan area and market.  The only private school travel partner that was available for VU to pair itself with in this regard was LUC.  Now that LUC is gone, there is no one left to pair with from this perspective.  UIC is a non-counter because they are public.  Assuming SLU moves to the Big East, VU would be placed on an outlier fringe whose location is not strong enough to allow it entrance by itself for these reasons.

IMO, the only way VU will ever join a conference comprised of entirely private schools as you suggest is if there is simultaneous movement from at least three different conferences that have a toe in the Midwestern footprint. The main catalyst would be all MVC scholarship football schools moving on an all sports level to an FBS conference like the Sun Belt, thus causing the remaining MVC private basketball schools to align with the other HL private schools, a school from the Southland (ORU), and/or Mid-Western schools from the A-10 if any are left, and then having them all break apart and merge.  This would probably never happen anyway, but with WAC football dead, Elvis has left the building, IMO.

[StlVUFan]

The answer RINK

I assume you are answering my question, not rink's (since he seems to agree with you).

and it does matter who we associate with because of resources. You want "like-minded" and "Like-runned" schools.

Still not getting it.  Do you mean that if we were on a more level playing field with other schools in terms of how much money we have to spend on athletics?

[BigDFromUIC]

Can someone explain to me why the conference needs a public/private balance and why Valpo needs to be with "like-minded" schools with "similar priorities"?

What is the obsession with private schools sticking together?  You're like a bunch of girls that can't go to the bathroom by themselves without company.

This wanting to achieve balance thing is just not making sense to me, especially when you're willing to compromise the strength of the conference.  The MVC no doubt weakened itself to get the private school they wanted.  They could have had good baseball NOW with UIC, and better basketball now with UIC, and better facilities NOW with UIC.  But it had to be private.

How exactly is being one of two private schools in the HL hurting you?  You're funding is near the top of the league.  You're winning championships.  Quit crying and go to the bathroom by yourself, dammit!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

What is the obsession with private schools sticking together?

As with individuals, so too organizations seek out their like for the kind of relationships that are mutually beneficial to both, since a pairing of interests strengthens both parties.

I would have thought this obvious, but since you're from UIC, perhaps not--you seem not to have noticed that we're going to the bathroom just fine, thank you very much, as, in fact, we have been going all over your crappy-ass teams.

[a3uge]

They could have had better basketball now with UIC...

Lol

[crusaderjoe]

Can someone explain to me why the conference needs a public/private balance and why Valpo needs to be with "like-minded" schools with "similar priorities"?

What is the obsession with private schools sticking together?  You're like a bunch of girls that can't go to the bathroom by themselves without company.

This wanting to achieve balance thing is just not making sense to me, especially when you're willing to compromise the strength of the conference.  The MVC no doubt weakened itself to get the private school they wanted.  They could have had good baseball NOW with UIC, and better basketball now with UIC, and better facilities NOW with UIC.  But it had to be private.

How exactly is being one of two private schools in the HL hurting you?  You're funding is near the top of the league.  You're winning championships.  Quit crying and go to the bathroom by yourself, dammit!

You'll have to pose your questions to the university Presidents.  For some conferences, there is both an academic and athletic component to their make up.  Perhaps the reasons why Loyola was chosen as a private institution are similar to the reasons why the Big Ten places an importance on AAU status for membership as an example.

Athletically, I would guess that Valpo might feel that it is at a disadvantage as a private school with respect to athletic funding if it is aligned with large public institutions. Our AD has gone on record in the past stating that he can't compete with the likes of Wright State, et. al., when it comes to allocating dollars for facility improvements.   

Note that VU has only been aligned with two other private schools in its entire D-I history prior to joining the HL.  VU has been going to the bathroom on its own just fine.  Given this historical angle, it is still unclear to me whether VU really cares about this distinction in an athletic context.  I don't think by virtue of simply hosting an MVC visit is there an indication one way or another in this respect.

[BigDFromUIC]

They could have had better basketball now with UIC...

Lol

What's so funny?  Obviously I was comparing UIC to Loyola.  I didn't say we had good basketball.  I'm the first to admit we've had absolute sh!t basketball.  But we've been better than Loyola.  If you think otherwise, I'd love for you to break it down for me.