Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[usc4valpo]

that is one data point. Also compare the Summit to the MVC.

[a3uge]

The Summit finished at #17, while the HL was #19 this season.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/live-conf-rpi.html

[SanityLost17]

The only question we have to ask ourselves:      Which league has the brighter future?   

The HL has 2 schools (CSU/YSU) that simply are never going to amount to anything ever again.   However, Oakland/UIC/NKU/GB are either consistently decent or are currently on the rise and WSU/Detroit/Milwaukee have potential to be good in the future as they have been good in the past. 

The MVC has 1 school who is consistently really good (UNI) and 1 school who is usually really good (ILLSt).  Schools like MissSt/Loyola/IndSt./Evansville/Bradley/Drake/SouthIll.) all have potential as they have had some really good teams in the past.  Evansville was really good 2 years ago.  Ind.State about 4 years ago.   Bradley about 10 years ago.  SouthIll. had about a 5 year run of dominance in the early 200's and Valpo played MssSt in the bracketbuster a few years ago.   


My Conclusion: 
The MVC has more teams that are consistently good, have been historically good, or have the ability to be good again.   It has better leadership.  It has a better brand.  It has a better conference tournament.  At least in the short run it has a better TV contract.  UNI might want to leave for football reasons, but what conference would take them that wouldn't hurt their basketball RPI year in year out?   Lets say UNI and Missouri state do leave.  You know one of the following: Oakland/Detroit/UIC/Milwaukee etc. would still want to join the MVC.

Seems like a no-brainer.   The only reason I wouldn't want to go is that I don't want to see Oakland making the NCAA tournament every year out of the HL.  I fear if we leave they won't have anybody to challenge them and since I see them as a rival, I don't like that.  haha     

[usc4valpo]

I also think the decision to move to the MVC should not be based solely on the potential of the conference getting multiple bid to the Mens NCAA tournament.

Also, regarding Valpo, I can only think of one year (2015-2016) where they got the wrong end of getting a bid to the tournament, possibly because of the disrespect of the Horizon conference.

Overall, the MVC would be a better fit for Valpo. I like the rivalry feel with Loyola, Indiana State, Illinois State, Bradley and Evansville. Also, note that the Horizon commissioner is incompetent.

[VULB#62]

An update with 2 hours left on the Paul Poll on joining MVC. 

[tweet]849667283077263360[/tweet]

235 votes and a 66%-34% split for MVC

[valpopal]

This article outlines the move I think would be best for the MVC despite complications mentioned. Adding Valpo and two other teams from the list below (most likely not the Dakota teams), plus shifting to a two-division format with first-round tournament games on campus sites and byes to protect the highest seeds at Arch Madness. Makes so much sense it probably doesn't have a chance!



A number of potential new members have been mentioned in published reports and by sources. They include Belmont, Illinois-Chicago, Valparaiso, Nebraska-Omaha, UMKC and the four primary North and South Dakota state schools, which are currently members for football only.

There appears to be some support within the league for expanding to 12 schools and splitting the league into two divisions. Under that scenario in basketball, division members would play each other twice and the other division members once, reducing conference games to 16 from the current 18.

Such a setup would no longer allow for a true regular-season champion to be crowned as well as make the difficult task of scheduling nonconference games even tougher. It would also render the MVC tournament unwieldy by creating probable campus site games and more byes for the higher seeds.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170405/reynolds-wichita-state-may-leave-valley-as-early-as-friday

[valpopal]

[tweet]849994565683728384[/tweet]

[oklahomamick]

I found the following on twitter

Last 5 year RPI averages
Valpo-84
Green Bay-110
Oakland-142
Murray St-145
Wright St-163
Milwaukee-216

If the MVC wants to have better basketball, easy choice is Valpo.

[VULB#62]

What if......  (again)

We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back.  We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.

Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no?  WHAT IF......   in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before?  That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together.  And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.

It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is.  No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either.  Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.

BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)

[VU2014]

What if......  (again)

We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back.  We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.

Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no?  WHAT IF......   in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before?  That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together.  And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.

It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is.  No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either.  Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.

BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)

An interesting idea. May be logistically tough to accomplish and make all parties happy. Some teams in the Horizon League may prefer the exist fee instead scheduling the top teams. How much is the exit fee?

[valpopal]

What if......  (again)

We consistently say that the failure of good mid-majors to schedule other good mid-majors during the OOC season is one issue that has held teams like Valpo back.  We also acknowledge that P5/6 teams don't want to play mid-majors, especially good ones, that much.

Should the MVC extend a bid to Valpo, there might be an exit fee if we accept, no?  WHAT IF......   in exchange for either a reduced exit fee or even a waived fee, that over the next, say, 4-5 seasons, Valpo agrees to schedule 4 games (2 home, 2 away) with the top 4 RPI HL teams from the season before?  That would guarantee at least 4 competitive games in OOC play plus whatever else we can scrape together.  And being in the MVC, maybe we are in a better position to attract those other higher quality opponents.

It's kind of putting our money where our mouth is.  No one could accuse us of hypocrisy either.  Valpo would gain, but the HL leaders would also benefit from the VU RPI.

BTW it doesn't have to be 4 , it could be 2 or 3 (this edit was prompted by Mick's list below)

An interesting idea. May be logistically tough to accomplish and make all parties happy. Some teams in the Horizon League may prefer the exist fee instead scheduling the top teams. How much is the exit fee?

Are we sure there is an exit fee in the Horizon League? Wichita State has no exit fee for leaving the Missouri Valley.

[Rogobob77]

Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.

[valpopal]

Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.

When Creighton left the MVC in 2013, Wichita State opposed institution of an exit fee proposed by the league.

[covufan]

Since WSU has been in the MVC for decades, they are most likely "grandfathered" into a status where they are not subject to an exit fee. I would expect more recent additions like Loyola and future members would have to pay a hefty fee if they leave the conference. Sometimes those fees are tiered based on how quickly the school leaves, e.g., $2 million if departing in less than a year, $1 million if giving at least a year notice. I would expect this applies to Valpo if they leave the Horizon.

When Creighton left the MVC in 2013, Wichita State opposed institution of an exit fee proposed by the league.

Why would Wichita State do that?

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/ECP_Allar/status/849710384940494848
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/850016299476553728

[UNIfan]

Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.

You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.

On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.

[M]

I think part of our attendance issue was that we seemed to have quite a few games when students were on break.  I also think that the casual fan is tired and not excited to take in a game where Valpo is going to win by 20 points against the YSU, CSU, UIC, Milwaukee...I think the casual fan is tired of seeing the same crum bum teams walk into and limp out of the ARC. 

As far as continued success....next year may the team might take a small step back but it should just be temporary.

[VULB#62]

Welcome to the board UNIfan.  Nice to have a MVC fan join us.  Thanks for the positives on our possible candidacy for an invite.  I hope that the MVC doesn't delay inviting anyone, whether it be VU or someone else.  Your point is well taken -- timing is crucial.  You also mentioned a couple of drawbacks. 

The loss of the Drew fingerprint on VUMBB is a reality; however, we have great confidence in Matt Lottich.  We got absolutely whacked by circumstances out of our control (actually more in the NCAA's i.e., rejecting our point guards' appeal for a 4th season and the incredulous finding on an academic issue that ended our HL 6th man honoree's season while UNC goes onto win a championship while a decade of academic fraud is being "investigated") this year and a season-ending injury to Alec Peters, the HL POY, at the end of the season.  Despite all that adversity in his first year as our coach, he did an incredible job of holding the team together, keeping them focused and coming up with 24 wins.  We also were pretty competitive against the likes of Oregon and beat BYU and URI.  Matt is smart and a great representative of the university and college BB.  He'll be well respected in the MVC.

The ARC is what it is.  It has a capacity of 5,000 and last year when we went to the NIT finals, beating St. Mary's and Florida State in the ARC, it was rockin.  Go back to some YouTubes of, for instance, the last HL campus site championship at the ARC -- full and rockin.  Part of any drop in season average over the last couple of years might be attributable to a steady decline in HL competitiveness.  As regards Loyola by comparison when they were in the HL, their attendance was miserable over a long stretch before that even for the HL -- a pretty good indication that, unfortunately, was missed.   And in its present configuration, though sexier, the Gentile Center holds fewer fans for games than the ARC.  With the added competitiveness of MVC foes and the renewal of old rivalries with Evansville and Indiana State and well as bringing Bradley into the ARC regularly attendance should be nicely bolstered.

There are other posters on the board who, I'm sure, can be even more specific about our credentials.

[hailcrusaders]

Forgive my ignorance, but has it been established on here that the Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) and Missouri Valley [everything else, including basketball] Conference (MVC) are effectively two separate entities? They share an office, but beyond that they have separate league officials, finances, policies, etc. Point being, it's not really a credit in favor of North Dakota State and South Dakota State that they're "already" in the MVFC when the MVFC and the MVC are two different things.

[vu84v2]

UNIfan - welcome!  M and 62 made great points that I will not repeat. The one issue about Valparaiso that seems to be unique among most any D1 higher midwestern mid-majors is that it is a smaller school in an area with less population than most midwestern mid-majors. It would stand out in that regard from other MVC schools. That said, the fan base is loyal and knowledgeable. The fans will travel to support the team. The students, in my opinion, get strongly engaged when the opponent is good (look at the Valpo - Saint Mary's game from last year on Youtube).

Assuming the MVC is interested in Valpo, this is a no brainer for Valpo. In basketball, look at the bottom five teams in each league. Replace YSU, UIC, Milwaukee (who will improve soon), Cleveland State and Detroit with Drake, SIU, Indiana State, Bradley and Evansville?  That is a huge improvement. Beyond basketball, the MVC is equal to or better than the Horizon in most (if not all) sports. You have more good academic schools in the MVC that are consistent with the standard at Valpo. I have long argued that excessive spending on facilities is extremely wasteful given other needs, but the return associated with this move would seem to dictate an openness towards more rapidly improving some facilities (example: ARC renovation).

[cornonthe]

Forgive my ignorance, but has it been established on here that the Missouri Valley Football Conference (MVFC) and Missouri Valley [everything else, including basketball] Conference (MVC) are effectively two separate entities? They share an office, but beyond that they have separate league officials, finances, policies, etc. Point being, it's not really a credit in favor of North Dakota State and South Dakota State that they're "already" in the MVFC when the MVFC and the MVC are two different things.

Yes and no...MVC used to sponsor football until the mid 80s and then "dropped" it. Most of the schools stayed the same, but became the Gateway Conference...later, they changed their name to the MVFC. The two, MVC and MVFC share the same offices, but administer separately...different commissioners, etc...sooooooo...while they operate separately, the MVFC is still, more or less, the same as they were...with some additional members.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym

Plenty of us aren't happy with it either and are pushing for a renovated or new facility. M's point about an inordinate number of home games occurring when students were out on break is correct -- including our biggest conference rivalry game (thanks, HL!). Also, we only had one Saturday home game this year when the students were on campus, as well. Look at our NIT games from last year to see a better example of how VU is capable of drawing.

Attendance would almost certainly increase in the MVC. I think there was also a drop-off this year as some of our casual fans realized that the HL season doesn't matter -- only the three games in Detroit. That would change in the MVC where at-large bids are more realistic.

[hailcrusaders]

The 3 Dakota schools are being joined by the University of North Dakota.  They have leapfrogged the HL in regards to conference RPI because of those schools, and it will continue with UND. The MVC is a no-brainer.  We get 4 other private schools, and if a Belmont or Detroit joins with us, we are set long-term for any other conference instability.  Being tied to other private schools can only help us, as long as they don't go to back-to-back NCAA championship games .

I'd still take the Horizon over the Summit, even this last year. The best thing about the Summit is that their worst teams aren't as bad as the HL's worst teams. South Dakota won the Summit with 12 overall losses, including losses to bad teams in UMKC, ORU, and twice losing to .500 SDSU team. NDSU finished 2nd in the league, losing 11 games, albeit with a tougher schedule. North Dakota is currently in the Big Sky, and not moving to the Summit for a few seasons yet. I saw them in person on several occasions -- they had the best team in school history this year, but barely won a mediocre conference. The program is on the upswing, but their star player graduates and they've still got a lot of work to do to take the program to the next level.

The Summit had two postseason bids this year -- USD (NIT) and SDSU (NCAA 16-seed). If you include UND (NCAA 15-seed), that'd be three, but no way UND is at-large worthy (or even NIT-worthy really), so only one of them would've made the NCAA. All three of them (USD, SDSU, and UND) went one-and-done. Play Oakland and a healthy Valpo once each on neutral court against USD, NDSU, and UND, I bet the Horizon goes 5-1.

[VULB#62]

Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up.

And all of this speculation kind of sidesteps two important factors:  (1) The MVC leadership has to vote to extend an invite to Valpo; and (2)  if invited, (this is the scary one) the Valpo leadership i.e., the President and the Board of Trustees, has to want to join and will be willing to meet any stated acceptance criteria.

But I can't help but believe that prior to taking a formal vote, the MVC will have received a commitment beforehand.  No one wants egg on their faces in a public setting like this.

[wh]

Hey guys, UNI fan here. I've gotta think the Valley is gonna try and get you guys on board, but there are plenty of theories, and as we know, the last time they really screwed it up. Some think we shouldn't bother adding anyone this year, and set up for a bigger expansion next year. I don't think that bodes well, especially if your Horizon is trying to also gear up for an expansion.

You would be hard pressed to argue that moving to the MVC isn't a significant step up. Money, exposure, atmosphere, and competition are all pluses. I do have to agree that multi bid chances take a major blow without WSU, which is not to say it won't be possible. Our team is reloading, but Ben Jacobsen has proved over and over he can produce an at large caliber team. I don't think it's a stretch to say Illinois State could do the same. Most of the rest of the valley have tasted success and have the resources to be strong teams. That doesn't necessarily mean a lot, but at least they put basketball in the driver seat of their athletics. As far as UNI and ISUr jumping ship to go to fbs football, I don't think that is realistic right now. However, if the valley really screws up in filling WSU's void, we might push for a change, but resource wise, it would still be a stretch.

On another note, there are some concerns in the idea of taking you guys in. Fresh off the loss of Bryce Drew, it seems a bit up in the air as far as future success is concerned. Others feel hesitant with your old and relatively small gym, that seemed to struggle with attendance last season. Loyola left a bad taste in people's mouth with their gym and pitiful attendance. Would love to hear your guy's thoughts on those things, because its not always how it appears, and I don't doubt that you all are capable of continuing success.

If I were an MVC fan, I'd be a lot more concerned about Belmont pivoting away from Byrd than Valpo pivoting away from the Drews.  Byrd has been at Belmont for 31 years, is 63 years old, and is the only D-1 coach Belmont has ever had.  Under the best of circumstances he probably has no more than 3-5 years left. It's impossible to predict whether Belmont will roll merrily along when Byrd leaves or fall off the table like a rock. For years Valpo was very successful under Homer Drew, then even more successful under Bryce. As another poster mentioned we had a very good first year under Matt Lottich, despite a combination of bizarre circumstances that seriously depleted this year's talent pool. With the players we have returning, new recruits and transfers, we should be good next year and very good again 2 years from now. And if you don't like Valpo's 3500 home game attendance, think about Belmont's 2500. The OVC is Belmont, Murray State, and everyone else.  It's not that difficult to chalk up wins and go to the tournament down there. Lastly, Valpo has already switched conferences with impressive results in both. We dominated the Mid Con (Summit) for many years, switched to the Horizon, and have won the league 5 of the past 6 years, have gone to the NCAA tournament 2 the past 5 years, and lost in the NIT Championship game last year.   

As to facilities, if the MVC wants Valpo, they should get a commitment in writing from Valpo's Administration to upgrade the ARC as part of the deal. This Administration absolutely loves to have its cake and eat it too.  There is no reason to think they will spend a dime on the ARC, short of having a gun put to their head.