Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[justducky]

In terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit.  If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?

I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league.  NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.

I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.

[wh]

In terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit.  If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?

I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league.  NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.

I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.

You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it.  That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.

[Dave_2010]

Also, "the MVC with Murray State, Belmont and Valpo would be better than it was with WSU", IMO, it wouldn't be better than it was with Wichita State.  With the Shockers, it was pretty much a guarantee that if someone other than WSU won the conference tournament, the MVC would get 2 bids.  While all 3 programs can be very solid to good, none of them have earned an at-large bid in the last 15 years.

It all depends on how you define "better conference." An MVC that includes Valpo, Belmont, and Murray State would be wildly entertaining to watch. It is also unlikely to be a multi-bid league with any regularity.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bigmosmithfan1]

Some folks are wildly overthinking this. If you had to put your own paycheck down on one of these conferences still being around and strong in ten years, which one would be the smarter bet? There ya go. We've seen the status quo in the HL and it's not pretty.

(And with all due respect to Paul, who is the best local college beat writer in the damn country as far as I'm concerned, the notion that VU should let the pre-game alumni reception attendance in the various conference locales have any sway in this decision is, for lack of a better term, nuts. If it's really that big of a deal, nothing's stopping us from continuing to schedule non-conference games in those cities regularly after a move. And if it's a big-shot donor, well, VU's development staff should be making special trips to meet with those folks anyway).

[justducky]

In terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit.  If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?

I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league.  NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.

I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.

You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it.  That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.

In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC  Loyola would likely be our travel partner.     My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Just because a conference is formed doesn't mean it immediately receives an automatic bid into the NCAA Tournament.

I love the idea of gaming the system, the problem is the NCAA could easily place a moratorium on the formation of new conferences. At a minimum, you'd be asking all the teams joining any new league to go 2-3 years without the possibility of an NCAA bid while the probationary period for new league is in effect. Tough sell. (Remember, VU should have had one more auto bid to the tourney on its history, but the NCAA took away the old Mid-Con's auto bid for one year back in 1995 when the membership turned over. Valpo won the conference tourney and would've gone dancing otherwise).

[valpotx]

It is a great question to ask which conference is setup for long-term success and longevity.  I very much think that is the MVC, and not the HL.  The MVC is the pinnacle of conferences for us.  We won't ever be in the A-10 or Big East, and unless a Midwestern private school conference forms, we would be in our home for many years to come. 

[vu72]

You guys shouldn't read too much into the MVC forum discussion. I think the nay-sayers have drowned out the rational people at this point. I think a majority of fans would be happy with this move, there are always gonna be the displeased coming to the forums to spew their arguments. I agree that it would be silly to say anyone but us has done better than you guys in the last few years.

That being said, your expectation to come in and rise to the top immediately may be a bit optimistic. Genuine question: Is your team gonna be improving next year or taking a step back?

You guys lost 4 Horizon league games last year and then against Mke in the tourney. It would be impossible to argue that 4 losses in your league wouldn't translate into a few more losses in Valley play. That still puts you around the top 3 because of how below average accross the board the Valley was last year. This year, Bradley, Loyola, Missouri State, (hopefully UNI, maybe not), and maybe some others will be taking steps up in talent.

I'm not saying you won't be competitive or maybe even have a shot at success, but your road wouldn't be getting easier than last years. If you want to stay in the Horizon and never open up your ability to really grow as a program just because a few people have their doubts, then so be it.

As stated by others, next year's team will be hard to predict.  Last year, all the losses were without one our best post players.  The last two losses were without our All American.

So next year our two seven footers won't be freshman any longer. We are adding players from Oklahoma State and Nebraska as well as a highly regarded JUCO.  Our new guys are "way" more athletic than the guys we are losing for the most part. How does that translate to wins?  Who knows...

[crusaderjoe]

Some folks are wildly overthinking this. If you had to put your own paycheck down on one of these conferences still being around and strong in ten years, which one would be the smarter bet? There ya go. We've seen the status quo in the HL and it's not pretty.

(And with all due respect to Paul, who is the best local college beat writer in the damn country as far as I'm concerned, the notion that VU should let the pre-game alumni reception attendance in the various conference locales have any sway in this decision is, for lack of a better term, nuts. If it's really that big of a deal, nothing's stopping us from continuing to schedule non-conference games in those cities regularly after a move. And if it's a big-shot donor, well, VU's development staff should be making special trips to meet with those folks anyway).

I get what you are saying here but it's not that easy to predict, IMO.  Would you have put money down on the Mid-Con dissolving in 1994 when only Valpo, Western Illinois and Youngstown State were left after the mass exodus?  Or, if someone told you to bet the house ten years ago on whether an established football conference like the WAC would be so decimated that it would have to give up football, would you have put your money down?  How about the SWC?  Bet the house in 1986 that it only had ten years left after being around since 1916?  I agree with you that the the MVC looks stronger longer term than the HL, but then again how much would you have wagered 15 years ago that the old BIG EAST was going to split into separate conferences because of football with all of the other realignment shifts taking place (i.e. Miami, BC and VT to the ACC) at that time?  The MVC, potentially could run down that path too.  The truth is no one really knows who is more stable right now.

[crusadermoe]

Here's my logic.  The MVC has many schools like us: Drake, Bradley, Evansville, and do to some degree Loyola. If the stuff hits the fan in D-1 financing,  Valpo would have a core of like schools in the same boat, much like the football team was able to do in forming the Pioneer non-scholarship league. 

When Butler and Loyola were in the Horizon, our other sports got nice short travel games.  Now you have Oakland and NKU, which are further than Bradley and Illinois State. Evansville perhaps  too.  As I mentioned, the  Horizon has shifted now to have six of 10 teams located in Ohio and Michigan metro areas (NKU is Cincinatti). I see the Horizon tournament staying in Detroit for five years or going to Cleveland if another site gets a shot.

The St. Louis MVC hoops tourney, "Arch Madness" has a great history of attendance and excitement. It can become the Valpo season pinnacle for fans each year whether we win the title and NCAA bid or not. In St. Louis, you could get a high likelihood of seeing 2 or 3 sudden death games every year in a Thurs-Sun format in a nicer downtown and city. 

But point #1 is staying with similar schools in future conference merry go round scenarios (Bradley, Evansville, Drake) is biggest factor

[VU2014]

In terms of LeCrone, the question I'd most want to have answered is why did he go from the #1 seed hosting to having the conference tournament in Detroit.  If the goal is to maximize the number of NCAA tournament units, then why change the format of the tournament?

I will say that the 2 programs that he invited have proven that they were good choices for additions to the league.  NKU especially, with their facilities and as young as they were this year, really has a chance to be a program consistently at the top of the Horizon.

I totally agree on NKU and Oakland. Both were no brainers. Thus LeCrone was fully qualified to recommend them.

You still have to recognize a no-brainer when you see it.  That's more than be said for Doug Elgin 4 years ago.

In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC  Loyola would likely be our travel partner.     My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.

LeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard. Only difference is that LeCrone is much more quick to make brash moves that often are not well thought out. It will be interesting to see how that dynamic plays out. Elgin stealing one of (if not) the premier programs from his best friends league.

If President Heckler/Mark Labarbera letting the Milwaukee/Detroit Alumni have a large say in the conference then that would be ridiculous. Just frequently schedule UWM and Detroit-Mercy or OU to keep them happy. It's really not that far of a drive from MKE to Valpo (not mention they could drive south for an hour and see Valpo play Loyola in Chicago). Detroit/Michigan alumni could still make a weekend trip to see Valpo play.

Unless one of the MKE/Detroit alumni write a massive check for an ARC renovation then I don't think they should have that much pull in deciding which conference we are in. Every game is on TV/Streamable these days also. We can schedule schools in the area for OOC if we want. I'm sure MKE/GB/OU/Detroit-Mercy fan would love seeing Valpo at their places if we left for the MVC. In fact a bunch OU fans are already smack talking that Valpo won't schedule them if we leave because we are too "chicken". Even though we did schedule OU when they were still in the Summit and beat them many times...

[wh]

Take Wichita State out of the equation, and the MVC drops from 12th to 15th in conference RPI. A difference of 3 places among single bid leagues has no statistical significance.

Let's not kid ourselves. This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more. 

As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's conference decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?

This reminds me of looking for a better used car, only to find that the more you test drive it and look under the hood you realize it's no better than the one you have.

[VULB#62]

Four observations from looking at all the posts since the Friday announcement:

1)  The posters on the MVC fanboard do not make the decision as to who does or does not get a bid to replace  WSU.  Stop getting agitated over a few negative responses over there. Listen, with all our howling about Valpo stuff, do you think the VU leadership immediately consults our posts when making decisions?  Thicken your skin guys. The UNI poster and the EU and ISU posters told you as much. By overreacting to every little slight, we give those bozos more fodder for their negativism.

2)  Pomposity seen on the MVC board is no different from our own on ours. Sometimes I look at the content of some of our strings and wonder how some of what we say isn't also interpreted as Valpo arrogance.  Let's face it. We inherited the Butler arrogance when the Bulldogs skipped town. That created a vacuum and we filled it (quite well I might add). 

3)  The absence of VU alumni support at away games that is cited as a possible reason to not make the move is a dumb argument.  Today, if we get a hundred alumni out for an away game that is a bonus. We don't travel as well as we used to -- the travelers are getting grayer.  Even our silver haired supporters (include me in that group except I don't have any hair) find it easier to watch the tube or stream games. The MVC ups that techno ante in spades. It also ups the frequency of mentions on the ESPN crawler, believe it or not. Yes, we want to expose potential donors to the Valpo brand, but in HL cities it's close to preaching to the choir. The MVC, if we are invited and accept, opens new locations to spread the brand. But more importantly it brings Valpo to new potential applicants (every game runs a Valpo recruiting video at least a couple of times).

4)  Does anyone know how many times Valparaiso or Valpo has been mentioned in the media over the last week. Holy cow, we have been blessed with brand recognition big-time. Imagine if (when -- written with fingers hopefully crossed) we did get a bid. The exposure has been incredible and will even get better. 

[justducky]

In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC  Loyola would likely be our travel partner.     My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.

LeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard.

If you are trying to argue that Doug Elgin is an improvement then I would not have led with your Forest Gump-like "two peas in a pod" comment.    How come these two "legitimately very close friends" couldn't twist enough arms to get VU over the top in 2016 and Illinois St over the top in 2017? Might it have been just too big a job for them? Even going back to the HL Butler days what did these two conferences ever do to help one another? Time for some new blood on both fronts.

This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more. 

As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?

We have the unique advantage of having experienced all of this already. I too fooled myself into believing that the HL would only fall off marginally with Butler leaving. Boy was I wrong!    Our crowds diminished, our TV exposure fell, our top recruits went elsewhere, and our upper class studs have been jumping ship at a frightening pace. The MVC needs to fully realize that this is their future without some BOLD moves.

[vu72]

In either a 10, 12, or 14 team MVC  Loyola would likely be our travel partner.     My first brief looks at Elgin (isn't that a fossil outboard motor company?) suggests that he and LeCrone might be twins who were separated at birth. If he is an improvement over LeCrone would somebody please step forward and make that case.

LeCrone and Doug Elgin are legitimately very close friends. They have very similar thoughts on strategy from what I've heard.

If you are trying to argue that Doug Elgin is an improvement then I would not have led with your Forest Gump-like "two peas in a pod" comment.    How come these two "legitimately very close friends" couldn't twist enough arms to get VU over the top in 2016 and Illinois St over the top in 2017? Might it have been just too big a job for them? Even going back to the HL Butler days what did these two conferences ever do to help one another? Time for some new blood on both fronts.

This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more. 

As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?

We have the unique advantage of having experienced all of this already. I too fooled myself into believing that the HL would only fall off marginally with Butler leaving. Boy was I wrong!    Our crowds diminished, our TV exposure fell, our top recruits went elsewhere, and our upper class studs have been jumping ship at a frightening pace. The MVC needs to fully realize that this is their future without some BOLD moves.

Huh?  Alex Peters, Jubril Adekoya et al came in two years after Butler last played us. Now we have brought in guys like J, Derrik, Joe and Bakari.  We did lose Brandon to transfer and now a second stringer in Lexus.  Did I miss something?

[VU2014]

Four observations from looking at all the posts since the Friday announcement:

1)  The posters on the MVC fanboard do not make the decision as to who does or does not get a bid to replace  WSU.  Stop getting agitated over a few negative responses over there. Listen, with all our howling about Valpo stuff, do you think the VU leadership immediately consults our posts when making decisions?  Thicken your skin guys. The UNI poster and the EU and ISU posters told you as much. By overreacting to every little slight, we give those bozos more fodder for their negativism.

2)  Pomposity seen on the MVC board is no different from our own on ours. Sometimes I look at the content of some of our strings and wonder how some of what we say isn't also interpreted as Valpo arrogance.  Let's face it. We inherited the Butler arrogance when the Bulldogs skipped town. That created a vacuum and we filled it (quite well I might add). 

3)  The absence of VU alumni support at away games that is cited as a possible reason to not make the move is a dumb argument.  Today, if we get a hundred alumni out for an away game that is a bonus. We don't travel as well as we used to -- the travelers are getting grayer.  Even our silver haired supporters (include me in that group except I don't have any hair) find it easier to watch the tube or stream games. The MVC ups that techno ante in spades. It also ups the frequency of mentions on the ESPN crawler, believe it or not. Yes, we want to expose potential donors to the Valpo brand, but in HL cities it's close to preaching to the choir. The MVC, if we are invited and accept, opens new locations to spread the brand. But more importantly it brings Valpo to new potential applicants (every game runs a Valpo recruiting video at least a couple of times).

4)  Does anyone know how many times Valparaiso or Valpo has been mentioned in the media over the last week. Holy cow, we have been blessed with brand recognition big-time. Imagine if (when -- written with fingers hopefully crossed) we did get a bid. The exposure has been incredible and will even get better. 

Very well said VULB#62. We may have inherited some of Butler Fans arrogance but we are still not quite on that level. I only had the "joy" of sharing a conference with the Butler fans for 2 seasons and they were something else. I went to 2 games at 'Hinkle Fieldhouse' and I remember walking into the arena wearing my Valpo Gear and Butler fans giving me looks as if I was unworthy to brief the same air as them. Just complete smugness.

To be fair I think mine and all of our heads would get pretty big too if we went to 2 National Title games (but maybe less then them though). If we do leave the Horizon for the MVC, I think Oakland fans would fill the void quite nicely. They already are trending that way after sharing a regular season title with a banged up Valpo squad (and never having won a MCM game in their own hometown).

[justducky]

Huh?  Alex Peters, Jubril Adekoya et al came in two years after Butler last played us. Now we have brought in guys like J, Derrik, Joe and Bakari.  We did lose Brandon to transfer and now a second stringer in Lexus.  Did I miss something?

Yes but my apologies anyway. I thought it should be obvious that my reference to "our" crowds, TV exposure, top recruits, and upper class studs would be interpreted as a general post Butler HL condition that the MVC will likely duplicate. Much like us I suspect that the MVC will be several years into the decline before they fully realize that it is almost impossible to just tread water.

[VU2014]

Take Wichita State out of the equation, and the MVC drops from 12th to 15th in conference RPI. A difference of 3 places among single bid leagues has no statistical significance.

Let's not kid ourselves. This is not your Dad's MVC. A Creighton-less Wichita State-less MVC is a mere shadow of its former self. There may be other reasons to consider the MVC, but purely from a men's bb perspective this is a lateral move - nothing more. 

As to a recruiting advantage, maybe - before the reality of next year's conference decline sets in. The more important question is will the remaining MVC teams still attract the same quality of recruits when the "new reality" sets in for them?

This reminds me of looking for a better used car, only to find that the more you test drive it and look under the hood you realize it's no better than the one you have.

KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376

[BravesFan]

Longtime Bradley fan here... FWIW... I (and many many more) Braves and Valley fans would love to have you guys in the league! Also, I would ignore the MVC board chatter. It is not representative at all. Much respect to Valpo as a QUALITY basketball school. Looking forward to hopefully welcoming you guys to the Valley!

[VULB#62]

Longtime Bradley fan here... FWIW... I (and many many more) Braves and Valley fans would love to have you guys in the league! Also, I would ignore the MVC board chatter. It is not representative at all. Much respect to Valpo as a QUALITY basketball school. Looking forward to hopefully welcoming you guys to the Valley!

Add a Bradley post to our forum about not getting agitated over some negative vibes on the MVC board. That'll always happen. Thanks for the recalibration Bravesfan.

[IrishDawg]

KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376

I certainly could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if he's already coming out with predictions for 2018 already since some of that is based on the highly rated recruits and where they wind up at, which has yet to be decided.  My guess is those were his projections heading into the 2017 campaign for the conferences.

However, even without any additions, the MVC would have been the 10th rated league after taking out Wichita State last season.  If you add Murray State and Valpo, the league's rating would be slightly better than it is after removing Wichita State.

[wh]

Wichate State perspective on the MVC: Athletic Department budget cuts, declining student enrollment, etc.:

Missouri Valley schools deal with budget cuts across campus lines

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article138677778.html

[VU2014]

KenPom came out with Projections of Conference strength and MVC came out at 10 (without Wichita State). Still a strong MidMajor conference but there is no Wichita State, Dayton, VCU, etc. MidMajor Powerhouse in it anymore. Not the same but still a pretty strong MidMajor Conf but a step below the MW and A10.
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850389750313701376

I certainly could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if he's already coming out with predictions for 2018 already since some of that is based on the highly rated recruits and where they wind up at, which has yet to be decided.  My guess is those were his projections heading into the 2017 campaign for the conferences.

However, even without any additions, the MVC would have been the 10th rated league after taking out Wichita State last season.  If you add Murray State and Valpo, the league's rating would be slightly better than it is after removing Wichita State.

https://twitter.com/Catch_N_Shoot/status/850413756500889601
https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/850414645227683840
https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/850432767674339328

[wh]

The AAC has indicated that they will not be going to divisions. Just a straight up 22-game conference schedule. The HL and the MVC need to follow suit - 12-team leagues, 22-game conference schedule. Quality OOC scheduling for mid majors is becoming impossible without it.

[VU2014]

The AAC has indicated that they will not be going to divisions. Just a straight up 22-game conference schedule. The HL and the MVC need to follow suit - 12-team leagues, 22-game conference schedule. Quality OOC scheduling for mid majors is becoming impossible without it.

The problem with going to 12 teams in conferences is that there becomes to many cooks in the kitchen. It makes sense to want to grab the best teams possible while they are out there from a competitive standpoint but you really hurt your schools ability to schedule certain out of conference opponents. Personally like the 10 team conferences but I understand the strategy of 12. If the Horizon or MVC were to go 12 then it would NEED to be the right teams added.

LeCrone apparently covets Omaha and has interest in Denver. My cousin who lives in Denver is a pretty big hoops fan and I asked him what the average fan interest in University of Denver hoops is and he said he's never seen them on TV or mentioned on local TV Broadcasts, and never really has seen them featured in the local papers. There is just so many other sports to follow in Denver that UD hoops gets absolutely zero oxygen. Plus I'm not a fan of adding a team that far away from the rest of the conference. They are not that great at hoops either.