Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[valpopal]

UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference

"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/

If UWM gets the invite and not VU it's for reasons outside of the basketball product I would think.

I can't see UWM getting invited over Valpo. Possibly, I could see Valpo and Murray State getting invites this year, so the Missouri Vally has an 11-team normal round-robin schedule. Then the MVC would consider adding a team next year (either Omaha or Milwaukee) and switching to divisions. The switch to 12 teams and divisions might be too much for this year and require more adjustments/negotiations, plus the MVC would have an advantage of being in the news again next year with the 12th addition.

[VULB#62]

UWM considering move to Missouri Valley Conference

"It's unclear at this point how a potential move would shake out. One possible scenario would be the Missouri Valley adding one school for the 2017-'18 academic year and then two more for 2018-'19. If that were the case, it's likely UWM would be part of that second round of expansion in 2018-'19 should it get the nod."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/college/uwm/2017/04/26/uwm-considering-move-missouri-valley-conference/100937130/

Nice find and post WH. The headline is misleading at best. No invites have gone out so it is impossible for UWM (or Valpo for that matter) to be in a "considering" mode .............yet.

Actually the article content is pretty good, however. They bring up a couple of points that we have skipped over in our discussion, like.... they'd be the biggest school in the MVC if accepted.  (My opinion) The men's swimming program (along with Valpo's) could enable the MVC to pull some of their members  out of the MAC and conduct MS&D conference championships closer to home. What was not stated but strongly implied as I read between the lines was that if they received and accepted a bid VULB#62 could drive to a UWM-Valpo game at the Panther Arena annually  and Valpo could have it's annual alumni thing in MKE 

[covufan]

Surprise:

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/857304153328103424

[wh]

SIU's Bell helping Valley pick new school
TODD HEFFERMAN The Southern 4 hrs ago 

http://thesouthern.com/sports/sources-siu-s-bell-helping-valley-pick-new-school/article_70adabd7-8599-5a9d-b01c-88a50f135f60.html

[Commissioner]

Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.

Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.

[oklahomamick]

That's a good point commish.  But I think the following out weighs that.


       Mvc.                    HL
Arch madness > motor city madness
Private schools > commuter schools
In state rivals > nope
Leadership > nope

[VU2014]

Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.

Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.

Yes the MVC was 12th in a very down year. The only 2 really competitive teams last year were WSU and IL St (really good teams).

I'm willing to bet UNI, Bradley, SIU, & E-Ville rebound with in the next few years. Its almost for a fact Loyola will be better next year (very good recruiting classes the last 2 yrs), and I have faith MO St, IN St, and Drake can be solid one day (specifically MO St). Would also be nice being in a Conference with In-State rivals again. The HL can not provide In-State rivals and adding schools like IPFW or IUPUI would make us just want to leave even quicker. I think adding schools like Murray St (not leaving for the HL) and Belmont would be great for the HL (sounds like they are not leaving the OVC).

I am willing to bet our future on those schools compared to the current HL's schools. Those schools are more committed and have a better track record, not to mention they are just a better fit for Valpo's culture. Valpo fans have grown tired of non-competitive the HL schools coming into the ARC. The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! The HL also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.

If the Horizon League tossed out YSU and Cleveland State out of the Conference then they'd get Valpo Fans attention (specifically YSU). YSU's administration has made it crystal clear that Football is their priority which is not in alignment of the Horizon League. I feel really bad for Cleveland State because of the transfer epidemic over there but their latest hire is head scratching and doesn't give me confidence that they will be able to get back to where they were as a program and at the very least it will take a while.

The Horizon League is no doubt on the up-swing but they are also a few coaching poaching away falling back again. I feel MUCH more confident hitching our wagon onto the MVC over the HL. The HL is not the same caliber of League when we initially joined and nor is the MVC the same league that it was even 4 years ago but the prospects are still better over there compared to the HL.

I really appreciate the Horizon League providing an opportunity for Valpo to grow but I believe it is time for us to leave and find a better fit.

[vu72]

The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.

And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!!  Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!!  Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.

[VU2014]

I'm just starting to read some other HL message boards about realignment talk and Valpo/MKE potentially wanting to leave the MVC.

If you want a good laugh then you should take 20 min and read through them. There is a lot of hidden envy & jealousy out there from some of our HL competitors fans...

They bring up how Valpo isn't in a major market a lot and they also love to pose the question, "why would Valpo want to leave the Horizon League when its their best chance to be in the 'big dance'?" They are not (or don't want to) looking at the bigger picture. And some get really annoyed that our fan base has a high opinion of ourselves... Yeah we may get a tad cocky sometimes but we've back it up for a while and we have high expectations for our program and a lot of our fan are sick of a few other Horizon League teams not stepping up.

[oklahomamick]

Be careful.....


Worse case scenario we are stuck in HL and have to play these guys in a rebuilding year....

[VU2014]

Be careful.....


Worse case scenario we are stuck in HL and have to play these guys in a rebuilding year....

I'm not sold we are headed to MVC personally. If MVC only goes 10 then I think Murray State gets the invite (public replacing public). If they add two teams then I think the 11th is Private and (taking out my bias) there is no better option then Valpo (especially private school (assuming Belmont doesn't change its mind)). The MVC takes Public to Private ratio pretty seriously. If the MVC only goes 10 then my gut says we will remain in the HL unfortunately and we'd be hoping they'd expand to 11 or 12 within the next 2 yrs. I am cautiously optimistic that the MVC will at least be expanding to 11 and Valpo will be one of those two teams.

I also wouldn't classify next years Valpo squad as a "rebuild" but more of a "reloading" year. Next years roster will still have quite a bit of raw talent on it but it there are will probably be growing pains because so many new faces will be getting big minutes. We have a glaring hole with no experienced PF which we are hoping Parker Hazen and Mileek McMillan (both freshmanO will be able to just hold their own next season (can't expect much from fresham, imo). We also need the young bigs to take that next step next season. I still think we could give all teams in the Horizon League a run for their $. We should be aiming for a Top-3 seed. But I think its very reasonable to expect a Top-4 seed in our "reloading" year next year and once you get in the Conf Tourney you never know what can happen.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Everyone seems to love making projections on a move based on the MVC without WSU, but want to compare them to an HL with Valpo from this past year. Gotta remove VU from the HL's equation to get a true apples-to-apples projection. If you're going to use a single backward-looking metric (2017 rankings), you can't remove the highest-ranking example from the data set from one league and compare it to another league where you haven't altered that data set and use that as a forward-looking projection. I sure as hell hope no one is making decisions of this magnitude based on patchwork analytics like that.

(In general, those sorts of "take out the highest-ranked team" projections are misleading because they assume every other team remains static. If you're going to assume the MVC replaces WSU with no one for the purposes of dinging their rating, then you also have to remove two losses from every other MVC team, which would likely shift things around a bit).

Also, the NCAA committee reportedly doesn't even look at conference rankings when considering a team. But in any scenario, the MVC is going to be ranked higher. Why wouldn't you want to move to a higher-ranked league?

[valpotx]

I'm just starting to read some other HL message boards about realignment talk and Valpo/MKE potentially wanting to leave the MVC.

If you want a good laugh then you should take 20 min and read through them. There is a lot of hidden envy & jealousy out there from some of our HL competitors fans...

They bring up how Valpo isn't in a major market a lot and they also love to pose the question, "why would Valpo want to leave the Horizon League when its their best chance to be in the 'big dance'?" They are not (or don't want to) looking at the bigger picture. And some get really annoyed that our fan base has a high opinion of ourselves... Yeah we may get a tad cocky sometimes but we've back it up for a while and we have high expectations for our program and a lot of our fan are sick of a few other Horizon League teams not stepping up.

I want this move to the MVC badly, not only for the increased competition and better private/public school balance, but also a little bit because I want the teams that prevented us from making the move to the HL in the mid-90's to eat it .

[FieldGoodie05]

The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.

And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!!  Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!!  Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.

Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game?  If so, little skewed.

[bigmosmithfan1]

I want this move to the MVC badly, not only for the increased competition and better private/public school balance, but also a little bit because I want the teams that prevented us from making the move to the HL in the mid-90's to eat it .

I'm glad I'm not the only one who hasn't forgotten about that. (For those that don't remember, Cleveland State, UIC, Green Bay and Wright State all happily threw us under the bus when it was convenient and the old Mid-Con looked to be imploding back in 1994.)

[VU2014]

The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.

And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!!  Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!!  Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.

Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game?  If so, little skewed.

I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.

Valpo crushed UIC 96-65. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=400918557

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSflhFHafA4

[Commissioner]

Some food for thought: Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below. Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.

Yes the MVC was 12th in a very down year. The only 2 really competitive teams last year were WSU and IL St (really good teams). I'm willing to bet UNI, Bradley, SIU, & E-Ville rebound with in the next few years. Its almost for a fact Loyola will be better next year (very good recruiting classes the last 2 yrs), and I have faith MO St, IN St, and Drake can be solid one day (specifically MO St). Would also be nice being in a Conference with In-State rivals again. The HL can not provide In-State rivals and adding schools like IPFW or IUPUI would make us just want to leave even quicker. I think adding schools like Murray St (not leaving for the HL) and Belmont would be great for the HL (sounds like they are not leaving the OVC). I am willing to bet our future on those schools compared to the current HL's schools. Those schools are more committed and have a better track record, not to mention they are just a better fit for Valpo's culture. Valpo fans have grown tired of non-competitive the HL schools coming into the ARC. The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! The HL also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling. If the Horizon League tossed out YSU and Cleveland State out of the Conference then they'd get Valpo Fans attention (specifically YSU). YSU's administration has made it crystal clear that Football is their priority which is not in alignment of the Horizon League. I feel really bad for Cleveland State because of the transfer epidemic over there but their latest hire is head scratching and doesn't give me confidence that they will be able to get back to where they were as a program and at the very least it will take a while. The Horizon League is no doubt on the up-swing but they are also a few coaching poaching away falling back again. I feel MUCH more confident hitching our wagon onto the MVC over the HL. The HL is not the same caliber of League when we initially joined and nor is the MVC the same league that it was even 4 years ago but the prospects are still better over there compared to the HL. I really appreciate the Horizon League providing an opportunity for Valpo to grow but I believe it is time for us to leave and find a better fit.

I agree with this and Oklahoma Mick's points. You should probably take the invite if it comes. I'd want my Titans to do it. What I'm just pointing out is that it's really not an uncontestable decision, and wouldn't be a catastrophe to be passed over. And there are lots of factors we--or at least I--don't know:
- What is the Horizon's exit fee? Over how many years can it be paid? Will the MVC help with it?
- What arrangements will there be for NCAA money? Will Valpo just start collecting the shares from past years that would otherwise have been part of the conference's distribution to Wichita? Or something else?
- What are the comparative travel costs, keeping in mind "non-revenue" sports, too?
- What conditions might the MVC put on for better facilities, etc.? Can Valpo afford those? Do they mix with the University's plans?
Most of all, what does one predict for the future of these conferences? The MVC is probably better, but there is the threat of it splintering over teams wanting to play BCS football.


I do think this is wrong:

Everyone seems to love making projections on a move based on the MVC without WSU, but want to compare them to an HL with Valpo from this past year. Gotta remove VU from the HL's equation to get a true apples-to-apples projection. If you're going to use a single backward-looking metric (2017 rankings), you can't remove the highest-ranking example from the data set from one league and compare it to another league where you haven't altered that data set and use that as a forward-looking projection. I sure as hell hope no one is making decisions of this magnitude based on patchwork analytics like that.

Yes, if Valpo goes to the MVC, the MVC would still have had a higher RPI than the HL, but not by a lot (and depending on what other teams join). But if Murray State and/or Milwaukee go, and Valpo stays in the Horizon, based on last year's data the HL would be better. And that's exactly the point I was making. Take Wichita out of the MVC, leave Valpo in the Horizon, and the leagues look equivalent. Move the weak sister Milwaukee from the Horizon to the MVC, the Horizon looks better--at least last year. The point is, in a sense, that Valpo controls which conference would have the higher RPI. So Valpo wouldn't moving to the conference with the higher RPI, it would be creating the higher RPI. Which pretty much takes the conference RPI stuff out of the equation--though you would, of course, want to look at more data and, most importantly, predictions going forward.

Anyway, if you go, we'll miss you, a lonely private in sea of publics...

[FieldGoodie05]

The OU games would be FUN IF THE HORIZON LEAGUE SCHEDULE MAKERS WOULD ACTUALLY SCHEDULE RIVALRY GAMES WHEN STUDENTS ARE ON CAMPUS!!! You also gave us ONE SATURDAY HOME GAME this year against a terrible YSU team! I'm sick of the ridiculous scheduling.

And, that one Saturday home game against a terrible YSU game drew 4823!!  Imagine if we were playing better teams from the Valley!!  Clearly our attendance numbers are skewed to the down side because of terrible scheduling timing.

Wasn't that Alec's record breaking game?  If so, little skewed.

I believe the record breaking game was against UIC. That was on a Sunday 2pm game on January 22.

Valpo crushed UIC 96-65. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/recap?gameId=400918557

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSflhFHafA4

It was Hall of Fame night with Lubos.

[vu84v2]

Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.

Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.

The problem with your analysis of the MVC's conference RPI without Wichita State is that it also needs to include Valpo. I am not sure how the math works out, but I doubt it would drop to 15th.

[VU2014]

Some food for thought:
Last year the MVC was 12th, and the Horizon 17th in Conference RPI. Now, the numbers don't really translate exactly because all the schedules would change, but for simplicity sake, we'll assume they transfer--they'd be close, so I doubt there's any meaningful difference, and to the extent there is, it would translate in favor of the Horizon in the example below.

Take Wichita out of the MVC, and the MVC falls to 15th in Conference RPI (and, of course, there's no way the conference gets a second bid). Now, take Milwaukee out of the Horizon and move it to the MVC, and the Horizon is 15th and the MVC 17th. Add the dreaded Fort Wayne to the Horizon as a 10th team, same result. In fact, the difference increases in favor of the HL. And the same is true if you add Murray State to the MVC--the difference further increases to favor the HL. So just maybe, if you want a stronger conference, the best thing for Valpo is to pass, save the exit fees, and let Milwaukee go to the MVC.

The problem with your analysis of the MVC's conference RPI without Wichita State is that it also needs to include Valpo. I am not sure how the math works out, but I doubt it would drop to 15th.

I'm also think thinking the Horizon Leagues RPI ranking would be hurt by losing Valpo.

MVC > HL

[vu84v2]

SIU's Bell helping Valley pick new school
TODD HEFFERMAN The Southern 4 hrs ago 

http://thesouthern.com/sports/sources-siu-s-bell-helping-valley-pick-new-school/article_70adabd7-8599-5a9d-b01c-88a50f135f60.html

While I have no idea what the weighting is on the search committee from the MVC that will evaluate the schools, it is probable any SIU people will push hard for Murray State. While they are geographically close to each other, there are also a lot of PhD graduates from SIU teaching at Murray State (Murray has every few PhD programs). My guess is that there are a lot of relationships across the two schools.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Exactly. Also, you're taking out the strongest team retroactively while still dinging the remaining teams for fewer wins/more losses to a team that isn't there. It's not an accurate picture. Also, it's a one-year sample. Need to look at least 5-year trends and build in probabilities vs. an MVC schedule compared to HL schedule (with all of the variables included) to get anything resembling a projection model with an ounce of confidence in its forecasting ability.

In short, you can't project the MVC minus WSU by simply removing the Shockers from 2017's conference RPI because Wichita was still in the conference and everyone played them, for good and for ill.

[VU2014]

- What is the Horizon's exit fee? Over how many years can it be paid? Will the MVC help with it?

I believe the HL exit fee is $500,000 (unfortunately much higher then when Butler left $50k-$100k). Not an insignificant chunk of change but it is common for the new Conference to help pay the exit fee. The OVC's Exit Fee is a brutal at $1million and you have to give up shares if not informed within 2 yrs.

There is also more $ in the MVC then there is in the HL. Better TV deal and will likely sell more tickets playing more like minded schools and competitive teams. Also we would have 2 new In-State rivals.

What arrangements will there be for NCAA money? Will Valpo just start collecting the shares from past years that would otherwise have been part of the conference's distribution to Wichita? Or something else?

Most likely scenario is that the new team(s) in the MVC would leave right away to be apart of the 2017-2018 season. I believe Valpo is still entitled to it shares from this previous season (I don't know all the details on that). I don't know why Valpo would be collecting any shares from the 2016-2017 MVC season.

What are the comparative travel costs, keeping in mind "non-revenue" sports, too?

The MVC has a pretty standard travel partner arrangement like the HL does. The Travel really wouldn't be outrageous at all. Especially considering the rumors that LeCrone was looking to possibly add Omaha/Denver (pricy Travel $ for non-rev sports). There was also the rumor that LeCrone looked into New Mexico State last year (not sure how serious it was but still shocking he actually gave them a second thought).

Currently the HL travel is fairly inexpensive. Travel cost may see a slight rise in the MVC but you'd have to way the increase revenue to offset costs.

https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/855803876527792128

What conditions might the MVC put on for better facilities, etc.? Can Valpo afford those? Do they mix with the University's plans?

There was early speculation that the MVC may ask for Arena upgrades but that doesn't seem like they would likely ask for that from what I've heard. If MVC did ask for arena upgrades then maybe that would be a sticking point but doesn't sound like it would be a deal breaker. Can Valpo Afford renovations? Likely yes, but the University would very likely not tap into the endowment for non-educational facilities. If there are renovations they'd have to come from a donor.

I'm happy that our fellow Horizon League fans have begun to care about our well-being lol.

If Valpo gets offered, we will more then likely be moving to the MVC and leaving the HL.

[vu72]

I guess I like the idea of being in a conference with more academically oriented teams like Drake, Bradley, Evansville and Northern Iowa.  In the Horizon, other than Detroit and UIC, you have to go pretty deep to find any ranking whatsoever.  On the National University radar, there are 310 schools ranked.  YSU, WSU, Milwaukee, Oakland and CSU didn't make the top 310.  NKU and Green Bay did make the Regional rankings coming in at 82 and 86 respectively.

In the Valley, other than the above mentioned schools, SIU and Illinois State are ranked nationally at 214 and 152 and Missouri State comes in at #71 in the Midwest Regionals.

I know some of you don't put much stock in these rankings but, here's the disadvantage a school like Valpo has.  Don't judge me here, I am not throwing rocks at any athletes in particular but, could some of the kids playing at some of the Horizon schools even make it into Valpo let alone graduate??  The state schools have in-state tuition that is a third of Valpo's.

In the Valley, basketball success aside, we are playing on a much more level playing field.  This is why I am attracted to the A-10 as well and why Butler is such a good fit in the Big East.

[E-Villan]

I was always curious how Valpo got left out of that Mid-Con group that got into the MCC in the mid-90s? I know it was after we left, but I never heard the logic of that, especially considering Valpo was the only school that actually fit the original MCC profile of being all private.

Good to see a Detroit poster. Good memories of the MCC days, except for the '88 MCC Semi-Final when Archie Tullus single-handedly knocked out what was Jim Crews' best Aces team to date. That loss knocked them off of the bubble and into the NIT, keeping Marty Simmons from ever playing in a NCAA game. Now that I think about it, there may be a pattern emerging here with that.