Valpo to be visited by MVC this week, thoughts?

[UNIFTW]

This is a question for UNI fan. why all the hate for Creighton ? As an outsider they always seemed like a solid organization and no worse than any other really good mid major program. Is there something specific? Is it just they were good or maybe because they left? Im just curious I feel like there's a story or 2 here.

Real short answer:
McDermott, friend hat, arrogance, recruiting

I can give you a MUCH more detailed answer if you really want. It was/is extremely heated between us. They are/were enemy #1 for years.

I can gunderstand the arrogance piece and can guess that there may have been some negative recruiting going on involving Creighton.  I don't know any history with respect to McDermott (Dougie McBuckets?) and what does 'friend hat 'mean?

Oh boy. I get to rehash this whole story. Give me a bit. I've got about 17 years worth of McDermott history to type out.

It'll be long but you'll "get it" when I'm done.

[VULB#62]

A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice.  Thanks!

[crusadermoe]

My birthday is May 9th.   No better birthday present than an announcement if it comes and we are named. I have enough neckties.   

[VU2014]

Jeff Bidwell (Murray State Athletics Insider/radio guy) talked to Coach Prohm (their former HC & current HC of Iowa State) and he asked him what he thought about Murray State potentially making that move to the MVC and he really stressed that Murray State would need to boost the budget and be all in or else teams won't be able succeed. He said he tried but what he said went in vein (sounds like Homer/Bryce asking for ARC reno).

Some of the things he said mentioned that are require of schools:

-Have to be all in financially
-Chartered flights for recruiting
-Increase recruiting budget
-Needs Hire: Operations guys, secretary, Grad Assistants, etc.

Not posting this to knock Murray but sounds like Valpo has been ready for years to make this move. Valpo has made the financial commitment for years and our schools has the support staff of people to make this jump and literally hit the ground running. Although I'm not sure if we charter planes for coaches (maybe we do and I'm not aware of it.), but regardless we have for years spent $ sending coaches recruiting overseas and scouting guys. Valpo would be mid pack in terms of budget in the MVC, I would think it may even tick up a bit if we were to join.

Just thought it was a great little clip of a coach who was stressing the need to financial back your teams to succeed at that level.

https://twitter.com/AKAJeffBidwell/status/859821308623933441

[elephtheria47]

Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.

[VU2014]

Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.

I'm really not worried about the Logistical stuff of going to new cities.

As for the talent I'm not worried at all. We can compete in the MVC and have proven that and been successful.

Agreed it will be interesting how the roster melds together. My guess is Linssen is will be the starting PF next season. He has the most experience out of all the young PFs and when Lottich was talking about him he said he's pretty raw in most of his game but the one thing he'll be ready to do is rebound. Depending on Smits' development this summer it might be best to pair him with Smits to help be a guy who can grab boards. All speculation on my part.

[wh]

Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.

You make a valid point, but lack of familiarity cuts both ways. I remember when Missouri State came into the ARC for the 2011 Bracket Buster matchup. They were either leading the MVC or no worse than 2nd at the time. The game was on ESPN and Dickie V was in the house. The place was packed out and rock'in from pregame to the final gun. The noise was deafening. MSU was completely shell shocked. We dominated them from beginning to end and sent them rushing out the door with with their tails between their legs. Stories like that are a dime a dozen when new blood arrives on the scene.

[FieldGoodie05]

Valpo has the talent to compete for the top. Itll be interesting to see how the new pieces fit together since theres so many unknowns while also having a relatively new HC. Also, if we move to the MVC, were going to be facing tougher competition game in and game out while also being in unfamiliar arenas/cities. Game day logistics could be a hidden challenge.

The grind of the MVC vs HL is a huge difference and will translate to as much as 2-3 less W per year I'd anticipate.

This is a very solid point, look at what OOCA road trip back ends do to us (BSU two years ago).  I'd feel safe stating that fatigue from enhanced competition will be a larger hurdle, undoubtedly.  And even more prevalent in high school seniors transitions...bigger freshmen wall syndrome and sooner.

[RacerJoeD]

For those interested, here is this week's podcast.

We talk NFL Draft, some local sports, but mainly Murray State and the MVC
Special guest Ed Marlowe of the Paducah Sun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4isVTSuJ-Tc&feature=youtu.be

[elephtheria47]

However, we would need to get ready for 9 teams and adjust to their arenas versus them adjusting to one or two new arenas.

I was at that game as well and that kind of was the point I was making. It's easy to get up for a one-off game, but the regular season grind against tougher competition would be much more difficult to maintain. (Not saying it cant be done)

Im not worried about the hotel logistics that much. I was thinking more along the lines of familiarity, routines, making sure the team gets to the arena on time, getting in the shootarounds, etc. Being in a league for so many years you kind of get into a routine for away games and know where to go. A wrong turn, a wrong door, traffic etc could cut short or eliminate a shootaround. I don't think it is a big issue, and navigating a bus through Terre Haute or Evansville is easier than Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc, and at some point they are 18-22 year olds and you can roll the ball out and let them play, but just something that could potentially make it tougher to compete at the top the first year.

[FieldGoodie05]

However, we would need to get ready for 9 teams and adjust to their arenas versus them adjusting to one or two new arenas.

I was at that game as well and that kind of was the point I was making. It's easy to get up for a one-off game, but the regular season grind against tougher competition would be much more difficult to maintain. (Not saying it cant be done)

Im not worried about the hotel logistics that much. I was thinking more along the lines of familiarity, routines, making sure the team gets to the arena on time, getting in the shootarounds, etc. Being in a league for so many years you kind of get into a routine for away games and know where to go. A wrong turn, a wrong door, traffic etc could cut short or eliminate a shootaround. I don't think it is a big issue, and navigating a bus through Terre Haute or Evansville is easier than Chicago, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc, and at some point they are 18-22 year olds and you can roll the ball out and let them play, but just something that could potentially make it tougher to compete at the top the first year.

I think familiarity is a Year 1-2 problem.  More long term, competition is higher on the whole and the new MVC choice(s) should anticipate problems with roster depth (quality) and overall grind them out games where the OVC / HL doesn't currently present as much friction with less depth of quality.

We join MVC I'm giving us a .500 conference record in 2017/18.  If we stay in HL maybe 0.6667.

[VU2014]

A very interesting article about the Public vs Private divide in the MVC.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/20170504/mvc-nears-decision-on-expansion

Publics seem ticked that Privates aren't pulling their weight. Based on budgets the privates are spending (on MBB at least), but the results haven't been there yet. Loyola and Bradley are in good shape for the future. Evansville has been just mediocre the last 10 years. E-Ville was pretty good in 15'-16'. As for Drake there is no two ways about it, they have been bad the 10yrs. Drake's last good year was 07'-08'.

If you ask me the MVC could REALLY use scheduling standards in Men's Basketball for OOC. Don't allow coaches to schedule too many cupcake home games just because they want to justify their job... (the Horizon League has had this problem with a few schools). Don't allow schools to be drag the league down with their scheduling.

[UNIFTW]

A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice.  Thanks!

This is as short as I can make it...sorry. It's still 1,370ish words


I'll try to keep this as short, and tangent free, as I can.

UNI and Creighton have always fought over recruits. Creighton always hated that UNI was allowed in the MVC. Never thought we deserved it, they were superior in every single way, blah blah blah.  That created tension, as you could guess. We also went head-to-head over many recruits, typically won by Creighton – most notably the Korver brothers and Nate Funk. It was a rivalry but not hot until about 2010. But before I get there...

Greg McDermott played his college ball at UNI between 83/84 and 87/88, AAMOF, he is a UNI HOFer. He started his coaching career in 1989 at North Dakota as an assistant. He took his first HC gig in 1994 at Wayne State. In 2000 he went to NDSU, where he met up with Ben Jacobson as an assistant. One season at NDSU and the UNI job opened up. UNI was a horrid program, playing in a 17,000 seat football dome, but it was home so Greg took the job and brought Ben Jacobson with him.

In just his third season (03/04) he took UNI to an NCAA tournament. He then took UNI to the tournament in his fourth and 5th seasons. After losing to Georgetown in the NCAA tournament McDermott made a comment in a press conference/interview about how he was going to get UNI to the next level and was at a dream job. He then didn't ride back to Cedar Falls with the team. He took a plane to Chicago to interview with Iowa State. From there he flew to Manhattan, KS to interview with K-State. Within 4 days of losing in the NCAA tournament he had 2 B12 interviews and had accepted the Iowa State job and in his introductory presser called Iowa State a....wait for it....dream opportunity. Remember, he said the same thing about UNI – where he is a HOFer as a player – just a few days earlier. The bridge with about half of the UNI fans wasn't completely burned.....yet. Ben Jacobson stayed behind to take over the program. Greg and Ben are BEST friends. The Iowa State/UNI and Creighton/UNI games were incredibly hard, and hated, by both coaches. It's why Creighton and UNI haven't played since they went to the Big East. Neither coach wants to go through it.

Greg played a big part in getting the McLeod Center build. Honestly, if it wasn't for him we probably don't have it and look a lot like Youngstown State right now. The McLeod Center opened in 2006/2007, the first year after Greg went to Iowa State. At this point UNI/Iowa/Iowa State were still playing H/Hs every year. Iowa State was set to come to CF that year, we forced Iowa State to play in the UNIDome, just to spite McDermott. He didn't get to coach the game in its first season, even though he was scheduled too, in the building that existed largely because of him. It would have been the third ever game in the building. CBBReference shows it as a McLeod Center game, but it wasn't. Even better UNI whipped Iowa State by 13. Anyway, Greg struggled at Iowa State, and went 1-3 against UNI in his 4 years in Ames and 0-2 at home.

Picking up the Creighton part....

After 4 years of not doing so well in Ames, Greg knew he was likely going to get fired after the next season, and rather than dealing with that he went looking for, and got, another job – Creighton. It paid more, was in a conference he knew well, in recruiting area he knew well, and was set up to do well after 20 years of Dana Altman. Him leaving UNI like he did to go to Iowa State pissed people off. Him going form Iowa State to main rival Creighton re-pissed people off, plus missed more people off. HOWEVER, that's not the main issue.

As you all know, Greg has a son named Doug. Doug is pretty good as basketball and had a fabulous career at Creighton and couldn't pass up the opportunity to play for his father. That's how the story is presented nationally and by the McDermotts. What that story leaves out is the truth. Doug had committed to UNI as a sophomore in HS. UNI knew how good Doug was. He grew up in Cedar Falls, he just happened to play HS ball in Ames because his dad took the Iowa State job. Anyway, because UNI knew how good Doug was, combined with our roster make up, UNI didn't really recruit any other post players for that class. It focused on wings and guards. Doug SIGNED HIS LOI with UNI in Nov of his SR year in high school. Doug registered for classes at UNI and was on campus working out when his dad took the Creighton job. His dad gave him a shot to play for him at Creighton, that's too good to pass up, right? Who could fault him for that? At least, that's how the McDermott's and the media play it.

At Greg's introductory conference at Creighton, there's Doug in a Creighton shirt and Greg talking about how he can't wait to have Doug play for him and that UNI and the MVC had granted him a full release to play immediately for Creighton (in the MVC once you sign a LOI it counts as an intra-conference transfer, which is a 2 year sit out period, even if the kid is still in HS like Doug was). Greg said he called Coach Jake and asked him to "Put his friend hat on, and let Doug play for him without enforcing the transfer mandate". Problem with that is, Jake and our AD hadn't heard from the McDermott family, or the MVC office, about this before that press conference. They were completely thrown under the bus. What were the supposed to do at that point, go "Well, we know Creighton said he has a full release, the MVC said they won't enforce the rule unless we want it enforced, but we are going to enforce it anyway."? No. That was a no win, bend over, situation for UNI. All because "Friend hat". That sent UNI into a bit of a tailspin for a few years, all due to lack of post depth. Oh, you better believe Creighton was treated like   every time they came to the McLeod center for those next three years. Doug never won a game in Cedar Falls, went 0-3. The loudest I've heard that arena is those games, and we've had it loud in there with games against North Carolina (win), top 25 Wichita State teams, Iowa, Iowa State, etc... To add fuel to the fire, Douggies mommy tried to come to his rescue and complained about how poorly, and wrong it was, UNI fans booed Greg and Doug like we did.

That single move set UNI back 5 years. It happened so late that UNI couldn't grab another post for that year. It was mostly fine until Feb. We were 18-8 and a half game out of first place, when our only reliable post player broke his ankle. We lost like 8 of our last 10 to close that year out. Had Doug been there, we would have had post depth to keep going. Not only that, we hadn't really been in on any post players for that year's class, so we took fliers on kids that weren't really UNI caliber, or were prep school kids with academic/behavior history but we needed bodies. None of those really worked out, and it wasn't until Seth Tuttle got to be an upper classmen (2014) that we started to recover. It wasn't until the last 2 years that we really had "real" post depth because of the scramble to grab bodies leaving us with guys that quit the team mid season or just weren't at a level to be a difference maker.

Sorry, that's still long but it's as short as I can make it. If you made it through all of that, you'll understand why many of us use sCUm. That doesn't cover their fan behavior or anything like that either, which adds to it.

[UNIFTW]

Here is a few angles of the loudest I've ever heard that place. Some background - UNI up on #12 Creighton by a 3 with about 14 seconds left to play...then this happened


Wide view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In34AL0xiEY

mid court about 1/4 up view - best one for "sound" of it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u-XLxa3TR8

Scorers table view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVER1W6j3Hc

Court Rush view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra2OvlMXp9M



Best part about that shot? It was right over baby Dougie's smug ass hand and in his damn face.

[VU2014]

Ok now 3...2...1... speculate...

Maybe I'm just a little pessimistic but if Paul heard something in mid-April, if I remember correctly the rumors were stronger for Murray State around that time 2-3 weeks ago... but then tides seemed to favor Valpo in the rumor-mill after the visits...

Who do you think Paul heard? Wasn't Murray State the warmer rumor in mid-April? My jedi-mind trick didn't work on him 

https://twitter.com/Valpo_Hoops/status/860225406401695744

Tweets from April 21:
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/855439589779099650
https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/855459978559332352

[VULB#62]

To UNIFTW, that is a pretty good summary of why there is a bit of friction twixt UNI and Creighton. But Creighton is gone. Hope any new additions to the MVC will be catharthic and add to MVC growth and reputation.

[Chairback]

Mark Adams seems to be a pretty reputable.  I have to assume he knows the backlash he would get if he was wrong with his source.  You can't spin it back after what he tweeted. 

Also, no way Paul O doesn't know what's it up.  Once the word is out he'll have a story posted instantly.

Valpo has been very tight lipped for a reason.

[wh]

Posted:  Thursday, May 4th, 2017 O-Zone Opinion, Slider, Stories | Basketball | Missouri State
EXPANDING ITS HORIZON: MISSOURI VALLEY'S FUTURE DECIDED SOON

http://www.ozarkssportszone.com/2017/05/04/expanding-their-horizons-missouri-valleys-future-decided-soon/

VALPARAISO CRUSADERS

"If the Valley brain trust only goes with one school, my favorite would be Valparaiso.

It is a school rich in basketball history.  The Crusaders have gone to the NCAA Tournament nine times since 1995.  Since 2000, have won 352 games.  Valpo's strength of schedule would help replace the loss of Wichita State.  In recent years, Valparaiso has scheduled Oregon, Kentucky, Purdue, Ohio State, Butler and New Mexico.

And the excitement around that program compares to other Valley schools as the Crusaders averaged just over 3,000 per game last year; the MVC average was 4,800 last season with the numbers skewed by Wichita State's average attendance of 10,700.

While Valparaiso would fit inside the current footprint of the Valley, a mark against it would be the distance from Missouri State.  Bears fans wanting to take in a game at Valpo would have an eight and a half hour trip ahead of them.  The 536-miles between schools would be the most on the Crusaders schedule.

Valpo, however, would be reunited with former Horizon League rival, Loyola-Chicago with a distance of just 51-miles.  In-state, Valpo would have a 160-mile trip to Indiana State, and a 150-mile voyage over to Illinois State."

[UNIFTW]

Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.

I have my thoughts on Mark Adams, and what he posted, but I'll save that for my twitter.

I really believe it will be 2.

[VULB#62]

Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.

I have my thoughts on Mark Adams, and what he posted, but I'll save that for my twitter.

I really believe it will be 2.

I hope it is 3.  Many don't think UWM is worthy. I think the UWM AD's job is on the line as of the new coach. She will move mountains to make him successful. With the size of the alumni base and the enrollment they can turn it around fast. BTW, the non revenue sports they sponsor are pretty good too.

[VU2014]

Mark Adams seems to be a pretty reputable.  I have to assume he knows the backlash he would get if he was wrong with his source.  You can't spin it back after what he tweeted. 

Also, no way Paul O doesn't know what's it up.  Once the word is out he'll have a story posted instantly.

Valpo has been very tight lipped for a reason.

I'm hoping Mark is right. He's definitely a very good reporter/analyst and is as plugged into the Valley as anyone. He wouldn't have just floated it out there.

I'm hoping we get the invite.

Creighton might be gone, but they will never be forgotten. They are like herpes, in more ways than you could know.

I'm no doctor but you can't get rid herpes and they are gone lol.

But thanks for sharing the story between the bad blood between UNI & Creighton. I had absolutely no clue Dougy McBuckets committed to UNI and was registered for class. He was a hell of a college player (still could be a poor mans Kyle Korver in my opinion in the NBA but my Bulls can't seem to develop anyone... so hopefully it works out with the Thunder).

I really believe it will be 2.

I was a little surprised when he said they would likely only add 1 school. All the chatter before was they were going to go 12 schools before that tweet.

I should be interesting to see what will happen

[valpospartan]

Many UNI fans refer to Creighton University as sCUm, because they are scum.  My phone autocorrect CU to sCUm and scum to sCUm. 
[/quote]

This is funny - Some of my fellow MSU alums (and possibly me, too) refer to that school down the road from us, as scUM.

[FieldGoodie05]

Many UNI fans refer to Creighton University as sCUm, because they are scum.  My phone autocorrect CU to sCUm and scum to sCUm. 

This is funny - Some of my fellow MSU alums (and possibly me, too) refer to that school down the road from us, as scUM.
[/quote]

Go Wolverines!!!

[bbtds]

A Readers' Digest version will certainly suffice.  Thanks!

Are you talking about the Republican's Healthcare Bill (Trumpcare) or the "Creighton Story?"

[wh]

A BigD post on the WSU board apparently after 1 of our fans had the audacity to suggest that the HL might want to consider New Mexico St. as a possible replacement for Valpo:

Why the hell are you even trying to take part in this discussion?   You guys are leaving.   Your input isn't needed or desired.   Let me speak for the rest of the HL.  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out of the conference.

Losing Valpo is not good for the conference but honestly I cannot be happier to never have to listen to an arrogant Valpo fan ever again.  They are actually 1000x worse than Butler fans ever where.  Butler fans at least had a legit reason to act arrogant.  Their team routinely went to the post season and won games.   I don't know what the hell Valpo fans have to be so arrogant about.  They have exactly ZERO NCAA tournament wins since joining the conference.   I hope the join the MVC and turn into the next Evansville.   

I had no idea BigD was a Valpo hater. I'm surprised. He knows full well that given the same opportunity, WSU would jump at the chance and their fans wouldn't give Valpo or the HL another thought.