PantherU take on HL Expansion

[valpopal]

reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787

why i love this board

I am not sure I saw that before, that is one great photo!

Thanks!

[IndyValpo]

I think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try.

Seriously, what have we been doing to date?

[NoDak]

Is there any chance that Evansville would move over to the Horizon as was rumored last fall?  If Evansville views the Horizon League footprint as a better student recruiting area, that may be reason enough.  If Evansville would jump over, that could open up the MVC for Valpo, as the MVC privates would again want to add another private school, forcing the MVC publics to accept Valpo rather than UIC  (although Denver might be possible too).

Did my own analysis using some of the metro area population / travel / academics issues listed above  (and negatives for football, lack of baseball, and airplane travel) and came up with the following preferences for the Horizon League:

1.  Evansville (assuming they have interest)
2.  Oakland
3.  Belmont 

large gap

4.  N Kentucky (although they wouldn't help in baseball until fully DI)
5.  Robert Morris (again don't help in baseball)
6.  SIU-E
7.  Bellarmine (even though they aren't DI yet, they grade out very highly on qualities desired by the Horizon)

Anyone west of the Mississippi doesn't have a chance due to travel issues.  A school with football needs to be non-scholarship, otherwise the pressure to upgrade in FCS is a high risk.

[wh]

The MVC has gone from a highly regarded non-BCS conference to just another mid-major almost over night.  Losing their top program was a huge hit by itself.  Replacing them with the HL's 2nd worst program will drop them further.  They are now a respectable 1-bid mid-major league - nothing more, nothing less.  If I ever had any interest in joining the MVC, I certainly don't now.  Longer travel, schools in tired towns in the middle of nowhere, and the memory of being turned down by a bunch of arrogant fools who think far more highly of themselves than they should. Screw them. 

[VULB#62]

The MVC has gone from a highly regarded non-BCS conference to just another mid-major almost over night.  Losing their top program was a huge hit by itself.  Replacing them with the HL's 2nd worst program will drop them further.  They are now a respectable 1-bid mid-major league - nothing more, nothing less.  If I ever had any interest in joining the MVC, I certainly don't now.  Longer travel, schools in tired towns in the middle of nowhere, and the memory of being turned down by a bunch of arrogant fools who think far more highly of themselves than they should. Screw them.

Wow      It's a shame you don't have an opinion, WH.

But eloquently presented.  And it's not sour grapes in my mind. They could have skimmed the cream off the top but they chose the sludge on the bottom. 

One thing that hasn't been given enough play:  When Valpo joins a conference, it's track record across most sports is to be/become competitive at the new level.  People don't give us enough credit, facilities or no, for that VERY important quality.  Look at VB, Baseball, Softball, MSO, WSO, and now Golf and Tennis.   Damn, the damage we could do with a real track   

[FWalum]

Is there any chance that Evansville would move over to the Horizon as was rumored last fall?  If Evansville views the Horizon League footprint as a better student recruiting area, that may be reason enough.  If Evansville would jump over, that could open up the MVC for Valpo, as the MVC privates would again want to add another private school, forcing the MVC publics to accept Valpo rather than UIC  (although Denver might be possible too).

Did my own analysis using some of the metro area population / travel / academics issues listed above  (and negatives for football, lack of baseball, and airplane travel) and came up with the following preferences for the Horizon League:

1.  Evansville (assuming they have interest)
2.  Oakland
3.  Belmont 

large gap

4.  N Kentucky (although they wouldn't help in baseball until fully DI)
5.  Robert Morris (again don't help in baseball)
6.  SIU-E
7.  Bellarmine (even though they aren't DI yet, they grade out very highly on qualities desired by the Horizon)

Anyone west of the Mississippi doesn't have a chance due to travel issues.  A school with football needs to be non-scholarship, otherwise the pressure to upgrade in FCS is a high risk.

One of the main reasons Evansville would come over to the HL is to renew the relationship and competition with VU.  Very similar schools that compete for the same pool of students.  I don't see them coming over to the HL if they thought VU would be leaving.  They are happy in the MVC but it looked like they might have been more competitive in the HL, that may no longer be the case so really no reason to leave.

[fargobison]

So what are the chances the HL just adds Oakland and calls it good for now? It doesn't seem like the Horizon makes any big moves or really any kind of move lately.

[Big D]

I think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try.

Seriously, what have we been doing to date?

We have been trying to get our school presidents all on the same page.  Detroit has fought against Oakland all along even though everyone else is ok with Oakland being one of the schools.  Detroit and Loyola would not consider any combination of teams that didn't include 2 of the 3 being private schools.  I don't know where Detroit stands now that Loyola is gone.  Valpo has fought for Evansville (even though Evansville has made it very clear they are not interested).   All of the HL schools with baseball have insisted that only schools with baseball be considered.  Green Bay only wants to go to 10.    YSU has fought for Robert Morris.  Wright State has pushed for Murray State and Belmont. etc, etc, etc,

[LaPorteAveApostle]

one thing we (or at least I) am not quite clear on is whether Detroit, by itself, has the power to block Oakland without another school joining them?

[classof2014]

With the state the Horizon League is in. I don't see how Detroit can block Oakland, the league is down to 8 teams and is flirting with disaster right now. If they don't get anybody this year, or anybody good, aka not the alphabet schools. For if they do, I can see mass desertion of the HL for years to come.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't see how Detroit can block Oakland

I'd say it's quite obvious if you'd put yourself in UDM's shoes for 4.2 seconds.  But my question is not "why would they" but "how can they"--I'm not looking for formal cause here, just efficient cause.

[Big D]

one thing we (or at least I) am not quite clear on is whether Detroit, by itself, has the power to block Oakland without another school joining them?

The HL has a bylaw that any team can veto the HL from adding another school that is located within 25 miles of their campus.  The only way that team could be added is if the rest of the conference unanimously votes to add that team.  Oakland is 22 miles away from Detroit so Detroit can veto them.   The remaining 7 HL teams can still vote together to add them.

[atkins]

I think the Horizon is just an average league at this point.  Nothing special, and the programs that "may be" considering us are not going to propel us to the upper echelon of mid-majors.  We're certainly not going to get there by adding schools such as Oakland (which, although a large and good school, has almost no name recognition outside of the upper-Midwest).  Sorry, but that's just reality.  We aren't ready to ascend to the upper echelon of mid-major programs, either, although Valpo at least has name recognition.   

[wh]

Assumin that Loyola is still an official member of the HL, I wonder if they still have voting rights.  What a kick in the teeth that would be if a program leaving the league could affect our ability to add a school that everyone but 1 member school wants.

[Big D]

Assumin that Loyola is still an official member of the HL, I wonder if they still have voting rights.  What a kick in the teeth that would be if a program leaving the league could affect our ability to add a school that everyone but 1 member school wants.

Loyola is no longer a voting member of the HL.

[wh]

I don't think we'll have to wait much longer to find out who we're adding.  From the WSU board:

Poster 1: All HL presidents are scheduled to meet with LeCrone on the 29th. I anticipate we will know who is in our conference sometime in June.
   
Poster 2: The ADs will also be at the meetings to get scheduling going. It's my opinion (and that's all it is) that the Presidents and LeCrone already know who they've narrowed it down to. It's just a matter of dotting the "I's" and crossing the "T's". They want to make the best possible, long lasting decision.

The presidents will trust their AD's with info "not to be shared with anyone."  Some of the AD's are like little girls when it comes to keeping secrets.  They will tell underlings and "trusted friends of the program."  We will know something by the end of the day.

[valpopal]

PantherU is now reporting "multiple anonymous sources" confirming Oakland will be added to the Horizon League with an announcement soon. (He is also reporting Belmont as definitely not being added.)

After all the false alarms, everyone (including those on the Oakland board) is taking a wait-and-see attitude, as they should. Still, I hope this is true. I like the Oakland coach, and there has been a good spirited rivalry between Oakland and Valpo over the years.

Nevertheless, I hope there will be more to announce. If the HL were to add only Oakland, that would be a real letdown, especially since they could have easily been added a year ago when Butler left. After all the delays, I would expect a minimum of two teams to be added to create a 10-team conference. Though there are other stronger candidates (Murray State, Robert Morris, etc.), I would at the very least expect Northern Kentucky as a tenth team.

Still, with May almost upon us, I am looking forward to an official announcement, especially since scheduling (including out of conference commitments) and many other details are being held up for all the teams while the wait goes on. 

[valpotx]

Belmont is going to hold out for the MVC, as they have received interest from the conference, showing that they can hold out for a few years.

[FWalum]

FWIW, talked to a former Oakland player/grad assistant last night and he said that UDM is still trying very hard to block Oakland from HL entry.  I along with most on here think that this move against Oakland by UDM is futile at this point and hope for another decent team to also be added.  Whom that might be would be a complete mystery to me as I have not heard any positive chatter on anyone else from any source.

[VU75]

So let me see if I have this straight.

The Horizon is holding out for Belmont.
Belmont is holding out for the MVC
The MVC is holding out for SLU and Dayton
SLU and Dayton are holdin out for the Big East
The Big East may or may not go to 12 teams

[wh]

So let me see if I have this straight.

The Horizon is holding out for Belmont.
Belmont is holding out for the MVC
The MVC is holding out for SLU and Dayton
SLU and Dayton are holdin out for the Big East
The Big East may or may not go to 12 teams

I'm so tired of this silly game of musical chairs - who's waiting for whom, Sally likes Timmy, Timmy likes Madison.  Hows this?
Screw Belmont
Screw the MVC
Screw SLU and Dayton
Screw the Big East

By the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten.  Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.

[historyman]

The Big East may or may not go to 12 teams

Per the Seton Hall AD the new Big East will be going to 12 teams.

Two more teams will be added to the Big East, we are certain of that, but right now those two teams haven't been decided - but it will be a 12 team conference.

http://www.southorangejuice.com/2013/4/25/4266172/a-conversation-with-seton-hall-athletic-director-pat-lyons-q-a

[wh]

Belmont attendance (Year/Attendance/Finish):
2012 2012 1st
2011 1802 1st
2010 1486 2nd
2009 1857 2nd
2008 1656 1st
2007 1351 1st
2006 1583 1st
2005 1624 7th
2004 1635 3rd

-Would this be the worst attendance in the HL?
-Obviously, no one in Nashville, TN cares about Belmont despite their success
-What happens if their basketball success declines?  Do they go back to their 2001 and 2002 season game attendance averages of 600-800?

Somebody on another HL board said they want to be the next Butler and might just use the HL as a stepping stone.  Are you serious?  Does anyone ever bother to check the facts about these "glamour" teams from nothing conferences?  They would add nothing to the HL except pain-in-the-butt travel off the end of our map.  I can't even find a fans message board for them.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

By the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten.  Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.

...um, i'm thinking maybe you are thinking the wrong group kept the name in the divorce.

EDIT:  yes, now i'm sure you are.

Big East (2013-14ff)
Butler   
Creighton   
DePaul   
Georgetown   
Marquette   
Providence   
St. John's   
Seton Hall   
Villanova   
Xavier

American Athletic Conference (2013-14ff)
Cincinnati (2013–present)
Connecticut (2013–present)
Houston (2013–present)
Memphis (2013–present)
SMU (2013–present)
South Florida (2013–present)
Temple (2013–present)
UCF (2013–present)
East Carolina (2014–future)
Tulane (2014–future)
Tulsa (2014–future)
Navy (2015-future)

to paraphrase my new bff a3uge, that's like deciding between where to raise your children--East St. Louis or Naples

[VULB#62]

By the way, this group of schools calling themselves the Big East is akin to us calling ourselves the Big Ten.  Anyone who ever mattered from a basketball standpoint is gone.

...um, i'm thinking maybe you are thinking the wrong group kept the name in the divorce.

EDIT:  yes, now i'm sure you are.

Big East (2013-14ff)
Butler   
Creighton   
DePaul   
Georgetown   
Marquette   
Providence   
St. John's   
Seton Hall   
Villanova   
Xavier

But, maybe in comparison to the ORIGINAL Big East with these departed programs (plus the teams in bold above):
Syracuse --- to ACC
UConn -- to AAC
BC -- to ACC
Pitt -- to ACC