PantherU take on HL Expansion

[blackpantheruwm]

I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle.

This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list.

Link: PantherU's take on Horizon League Expansion

[Valposter]

Just read both links.  Great info.......thanks for sharing.  I am fully onboard in agreement with the best-case scenario in adding Belmont, Murray State, Oakland, and Northern Kentucky.  NKU has nice facilities, great fit geographically and it opens up a nice recruiting market in Cincinnati.

[valpotx]

Good summaries.  The only thing I noticed is that you didn't point out that UMKC doesn't have baseball either.  Unless they are adding it sometime soon, it is not something they have done in awhile

[a3uge]

Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?

[Valposter]

Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?

No, the scenarios mostly involve adding 4 new teams to replace Butler and Loyal with expansion to 12 teams.  UIC is still included.

[VULB#62]

After doing a little research on NKU previously, I like them as a dark horse addition.  As Panther mentions -- great facilities.

[blackpantheruwm]

Is this considering the fact that UIC to the MVC is a done deal?

You're a funny guy.

[wh]

I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle.

This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list.

Link: PantherU's take on Horizon League Expansion

Interesting and informative and helps switch the focus back to the HL and the business at hand.  Thanks for sharing.

[historyman]

After doing a little research on NKU previously, I like them as a dark horse addition.  As Panther mentions -- great facilities.

But according to many on this board facilities aren't that important. Only winning is important.   

[VULB#62]

I'm thinking that NKU being admitted to the HL could, by virtue of its commitment as reflected in those facilities and a requisite BB budget increase, jump into the "winning" column very quickly (ala FGCU).  But that's only a hunch.

This clip from the NKU Facilities write-up says a lot.  It would be quite easy to recruit to this.

Home to Norse Basketball, The Bank of Kentucky Center sits at the front entrance of Northern Kentucky University's Highland Heights, Ky., campus.  Opened in 2008, the $60 million complex has laid a great foundation for NKU's future.  The Bank of Kentucky Center holds 9,400 seats and serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community as well. The facility serves the Norse athletic teams with excellent workout facilities, training areas, meeting rooms and beyond.

Link w/ pictures:
http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities

If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference.  Oh, I forgot.........

[a3uge]

If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference.  Oh, I forgot.........

We should just turn into a large state school so we can have money to throw at a $60 million arena. Who knows, maybe we can even get a $450 million slush fund going just like the University of Wisconsin system.

[blackpantheruwm]

I'm thinking that NKU being admitted to the HL could, by virtue of its commitment as reflected in those facilities and a requisite BB budget increase, jump into the "winning" column very quickly (ala FGCU).  But that's only a hunch.

This clip from the NKU Facilities write-up says a lot.  It would be quite easy to recruit to this.

Home to Norse Basketball, The Bank of Kentucky Center sits at the front entrance of Northern Kentucky University's Highland Heights, Ky., campus.  Opened in 2008, the $60 million complex has laid a great foundation for NKU's future.  The Bank of Kentucky Center holds 9,400 seats and serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community as well. The facility serves the Norse athletic teams with excellent workout facilities, training areas, meeting rooms and beyond.

Link w/ pictures:
http://nkunorse.com/sports/2012/10/5/GEN_1005125048.aspx?tab=facilities

If Valpo had this facility, we would be the new gem of the Missouri Valley Conference.  Oh, I forgot.........

What's not in there is that NKU was delayed coming to Division I by the OVC because they decided not to admit them because the members of the OVC saw the Bank of Kentucky Center as a huge recruiting advantage.

I have no problem with it!

[VULB#62]

That's my point.  No problem with it either.

BTW I underscored "serves as a multipurpose arena for not only NKU but the surrounding community" for a reason.  I'm not sure about this because of being so remote and away for so long, but how much is the ARC used in this capacity?  I do not think very much largely because it is a big gym, not an arena.  On a number of other strings posters have complained about the lack of a good town/gown relationship.  A renovated ARC (AKA Thrivent Center/Arena/Pavillion/Auditorium/whatever) that could host numerous cultural activities in addition to Crusader BB could be the catalyst to draw the community and the university much closer.  It would be neutral ground.  I mention this because we have a beautiful chapel, but its potential for community involvement and participation is very limited because of the religious nature of the building, but an arena is not.

I know that a renovation that might use cultural events as a part of its justification could be a problem if the basis for funding is the projected income from those yet to be scheduled events (Isn't Wright State having some of those issues?).  But a 6,000 permanent seat arena with the primary purpose of showcasing the VU D-I basketball program, that coincidentally brings in cultural activities (concerts, shows, etc. that are open to the community) wouldn't be a bad thing.

[VU75]

If it is Northern Kentucky that might explain the delay.  NKU weeks ago unexpectedly  canned their AD which might have put the announcement on hold.  It might also explain why retired Wright State AD Mike Cusak was brought in as the Interim Director. If it's not Northern Kentucky, well random stuff just happens.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

A renovated ARC (AKA Thrivent Center/Arena/Pavillion/Auditorium/whatever) that could host numerous cultural activities in addition to Crusader BB could be the catalyst to draw the community and the university much closer.  ... But a 6,000 permanent seat arena with the primary purpose of showcasing the VU D-I basketball program, that coincidentally brings in cultural activities (concerts, shows, etc. that are open to the community) wouldn't be a bad thing.

Mene, mene tekel upharsin:
12-2-2007: Study would look at arena/convention center in Valpo
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-would-look-at-arena-convention-center-in-valpo/article_392ca632-1902-5c0a-9569-d86ced5da0c8.html

"There's been talk for many years about having an arena for the Valparaiso University basketball games that would be suitable for the league they play in and as a small convention center to host events that need a large area," Mayor Jon Costas said.   
...
VU spokesman Reggie Syrcle said the current basketball arena seats 5,100. Costas said the new one would probably seat 8,000 to 10,000 and would be a way of elevating the university's program, but it wouldn't be owned or controlled by VU.

"We would be very interested in seeing what options might be available to the city and whether there would be a relationship with the university that would be mutually advantageous," Syrcle said.

12-2-2007: Valpo will know about arena feasibility in 90 days
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/valpo-will-know-about-arena-feasibility-in-days/article_62345d95-c6fb-5047-858f-828e0733b9df.html

Stuart Summers, executive director for the commission, said the arena, which would be operated as a partnership between the city and the university, could become a substantial economic generator for visitor and convention activity and substantially benefit the city's tax increment financing districts, which provide most of the commission's funding.

11-25-2008: Report nixes Valpo convention center
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/report-nixes-valpo-convention-center/article_60733330-2835-5dbb-b545-993f70579997.html

"I think the report will be helpful for Valparaiso University because it will indicate we don't have the demographics for a full-scale convention center, but it is helpful with regard to an arena and where it might be located, how it would be used and the costs," Costas said. "The city wants to help the university in any way to expand its programs."

VU spokesman Reggie Syrcle said the university had not seen the report Monday afternoon. Syrcle said a new field house addition to the Athletics-Recreation Center is in the university's long-range plans.
...
The $65,000 study was funded by $10,000 from the city's Redevelopment Commission, $10,000 from the city's share of the county economic development income tax, $5,000 from the Valparaiso Economic Development Corp., $10,000 from the Porter County Convention, Recreation and Visitors Commission and $30,000 from donations by VU alumni.

3-26-2009:  Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VU
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html

In addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.

The consultants looked at an arena that would cost $25 million to $45 million and be located near the VU campus to provide a modern, attractive venue for the university's athletic teams as well as offices, upscale locker rooms, training facilities, sports medicine areas, player lounge, study areas and meeting space.

The 5,000 seats would be retractable to provide a large floor area for expositions. The study also considered such amenities as eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 clubs seats, a private club/restaurant, concession stands, media room and a video scoreboard. Hunden said annual attendance could approach 200,000 by 2015 for 98 events, including live performances.

While revenue generated probably would be enough to cover operating expenses and produce a profit, it would not be enough to cover the upfront cost of building the arena. That would have to be financed through partnerships with the public and the private sector.

"There have been few arenas built in the last generation in a setting similar to Valparaiso's that would have generated the funds necessary to repay debt service without support from non-operating revenues," the study states.

The arena would provide benefits for both the university and the city. In addition to providing "a center of civic life and economic activity," it would improve the overall quality of life and community pride, increase property values, attract tourists and give the city an advantage in trying to attract new businesses.

It also would help VU attract student athletes for its intercollegiate sports programs. The study said the university's current arena does not compare well with those at other universities and is used to capacity, which creates challenges for expanding its own athletic programs as well as booking community activities.

4-6-2009: EDITORIAL: Valpo arena's time hasn't come
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/opinion/editorial/editorial-valpo-arena-s-time-hasn-t-come/article_8f4a22bb-1920-584b-821d-d15162551498.html

According to Hunden's study, amenities could include eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 club seats, a private club with restaurant, concession stands and a video scoreboard. It would be much nicer than the existing Athletics-Recreation Center.

The new arena could be built on the site of the Porter Valparaiso Hospital Campus, which will be abandoned when Porter Hospital builds its new facility.

A new arena on that site would solve the quandary of what to do with that old, sprawling building on LaPorte Avenue.

The bottom line, though, is that this is an idea whose time doesn't seem to have come. It just isn't cost-effective for the city to build an arena under these terms.

The arena wouldn't work without the university's involvement, so let the university share in the cost of the facility, either by paying for the construction or by being locked into a long-term lease that would guarantee the bonds as well as operating costs.

Otherwise, leave the idea on the drawing board.

[VULB#62]

3-26-2009:  Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VU
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html
Quote
In addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.


Time to resurrect it  --  sans luxury box and club seat junk -- that's not Valpo.  But 6,000 good seats and some great cultural events targeted for that kind of venue would be cool.

[wh]

3-26-2009:  Study says new Valparaiso arena would have to be tied to VU
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html
Quote
In addition to commenting on the feasibility of the arena, Hunden said a small convention center and a conference hotel in Valparaiso would not be feasible at this time because of the existing supply of facilities in the regional market, but both could be viable in five to 10 years.


Time to resurrect it  --  sans luxury box and club seat junk -- that's not Valpo.  But 6,000 good seats and some great cultural events targeted for that kind of venue would be cool.

Although never stated publicly to my knowledge, the feasibility of an arena/convention center in Valpo was tied to extending the South Shore Line from Gary to Valpo. That idea was also nixed in 2009.  I'm sure everyone will recall that 2009 was the first full year after the bottom dropped out of the economy.  Visionary yet costly projects like these got put on the back burner almost overnight.   

[VULB#62]

Based on Apostle's clips, the original version was a 9-10K seat arena more positioned for all of NW Indiana.  Revisiting the concept now in a scaled down version (6K seat ARC expansion and renovation -- not an arena/convention hall) and focusing on the City of Valpo and the contiguous towns makes more sense to me from a utilization as well as a financial investment perspective.  It's proportional.

[classof2014]

I agree, I think a smaller arena of 5-6K or so will be plenty big for VU and the City of Valpo. Right now Valpo isn't big enough to have much bigger than that. As much as a 10K seat arena would be nice there'd be no way we'd ever fill the place up. Maybe if Valpo was Merrillville University instead we could have a bigger arena because we'd be in the middle of the NWI population center. Valpo and it's surrounding area doesn't have the population to fill a large arena. If in 30 to 40 years the city has grown to 75-100K people, which it probably won't, or if enrollment increases to 8-10K perhaps we would consider building a much larger arena. But that's 20 years down the road. Yes, the university wants to grow to 8-10K but you need the alumni from those classes to fill the arena. I'd imagine a majority of the people who go to VU games today are alumni, and before we can start thinking about building an 8-10K seat arena, we need to increase our number of alumni who goes to the games which will take years and years to happen.

There's no point in building an arena when you will only fill 1/3 of the way for most games.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Initially it said that...it was downsized rather quickly:

The 5,000 seats would be retractable to provide a large floor area for expositions. The study also considered such amenities as eight to 12 luxury suites, 400 clubs seats, a private club/restaurant, concession stands, media room and a video scoreboard. Hunden said annual attendance could approach 200,000 by 2015 for 98 events, including live performances.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/study-says-new-valparaiso-arena-would-have-to-be-tied/article_d398ce52-beb2-5016-af11-b223ec5faa62.html

[VULB#62]

Apostle, those historical snippets were great for someone like myself who wasn't aware of those earlier conversations. Thank you for that.  I was glad to see that those discussions had actually occurred -- shows someone was thinking of the future.  I remain convinced that a renovated and expanded ARK could be the key to opening a closer relationship with the city.  So Apostle, what's your take on this? 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

My take is not really helpful.  I just remembered reading things about it once upon a time and looked up the relevant info.

My other take is that

[VULB#62]

Thanks for doing the digging.  It'll be what it will be.   

[NoDak]

First time poster on this board from another school, so hope that is O.K. 

Very nice matrix set up, but I think there needs to be a couple of categories added or modified:

First off, one of the most important metrics needs to size of a metro area.  The bigger the metro area, the more points added.  Chicagoland was the reason that Loyola was chosen by the MVC, not because of historical RPI.  A school like Morehead St in a micropolitan area has no shot at the Horizon unless it makes the NCAA's five years in a row with continued success.  Same with Murray St.  Although IUPUI doesn't have many credentials (except academic), it does have the Indy metro area.   NKU, SIUE, Belmont, Oakland, and Robert Morris all get significant points just because they lie in major metro areas, whereas the Dakota's get limited pts.

2nd:  public / private balance in the Horizon.  Since the Horizon lost two private schools in Butler and Loyola, Detroit and Valpo have to be clamoring to regain additional private schools.  Case in point, the MVC lost a private, and then chose a private to replace it to restore a 6 public to 4 private balance.  So schools like Robert Morris, Belmont, and maybe even Evansville (which was rumored last fall), are going to be pushed especially hard by Detroit and Valpo.  The private schools tend to stick up for each other, other Valpo, Loyola, and Butler did for protecting Detroit from the Horizon adding Oakland.  With only two private schools left in the Horizon, the private schools no longer form a block to stop a school, but they will want their numbers at least partially restored.  Even a DII school like Bellarmine in Louisville could be pushed by them.  A reputable private school should get like 20 extra points.  If public schools were being replaced, then there wouldn't be premium extra points added for private schools.

3rd:  travel expenses.  Minimizing travel expenses in Olympic sports is a huge deal for all Horizon teams.  What matters is not how close a new school is to the closest team, but air fares be required to the new school from the furthest Horizon teams.   UWGB probably doesn't want Robert Morris or Belmont, whereas  the idea of UMKC, Omaha, and the Dakotas is the last place that Cleveland St, YSU, or WSU want.  With a base of 20 points, subtract 5 points for conference member that would have to pay for air fares to a new school (over 500 miles) and keep subtracting even if the number becomes negative.

4th:  academics.  Some schools simply won't be acceptable unless there isn't a choice:  like Chicago St.  Others, like those with strict admission standards (Belmont) or those with med school (Oakland, UMKC, USD, IUPUI) or extensive grad schools (IUPUI, NDSU, SDSU) get extra points, even if the public isn't aware.

5th:  baseball.  Because baseball is a big need in the Horizon, add 20 points if they have baseball or will add it.

6th:  football.  While football is most often a big positive, Horizon schools don't look at it as positive because it pulls money away from basketball and into football.  Look at Youngstown State.  Murray St, W Ill, the Dakota schools, and even Robert Morris will not be looked at as positively by Horizon Presidents because they have football.  Moreover, Murray St and Robert Morris likely won't accept a Horizon bid unless they find a conference for their football teams, which likely means dropping their teams to non-scholarship.  Subtract 20 pts for football, unless a school with Horizon interest can drop scholarships.

[size=78%] I wanted to create a separate thread...I didn't want something like 30,000 words lost in the shuffle. This is a link to a forum thread. The reason I post this thread is because there are two articles linked inside - one laying out the potential suitors for the Horizon League, the second what I would do if given that list.  [/size]

[wh]

Had to chuckle when I read kingsteve's reply on the Milw board:

Dylan:
   
From Rob Demovsky's notes ...

Horizon League teams haven't been told how many conference games to expect next season. The league is down to eight schools for next season after Loyola announced it was leaving for the Missouri Valley Conference effective July 1.

In two years, the Horizon League has gone from 10 schools to eight. Before Butler's departure last spring, the league schedule consisted of 18 games. Last year, teams played 16 conference games.

This is reportedly creating some real issues with filling out the non-conference schedule. The coaches have calls out to everyone, but can't commit to anyone.

kingsteve:

This is SO Lecrone!! When something finally does happen you can count on two things...it will be late and will be underwhelming