PantherU take on HL Expansion

[wh]

In fairness, although the clock is still running and the hour late, the verdict is still out as to LeCrone's performance in dealing with the replacement/expansion issue.  Hopefully (and I'm serious about this), he'll blow us all away with a great master plan and have the last laugh.  I'll be the first to congratulate him if that happens. 

On a related front, I notice that in the aftermath of the MVC/Loyola thing some reporters and pundits are now giving credence to the idea of promoting underperforming (undeserving) programs that reside in large metropolitan areas.  IUPUI has been mentioned as someone that could open new recruiting relationships in Indy, the same with UMKC in Kansas City, etc.  I think we should not lose sight that until the MVC/Loyola move, conferences all over the country have poached schools with the best performing, most deserving programs.  The MVC has taken a heck of a risk here with this supposed "long view" strategy, and I think the wise thing to do is to take a wait-and-see approach before adopting anything that even closely resembles what they did.  More specifically, the last thing I would want to see the HL do is invite IUPUI based on "potential," access to Indianapolis media exposure, ability to recruiting in talent rich hoosier land, blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc. 

[Big D]

I think we should not lose sight that until the MVC/Loyola move, conferences all over the country have poached schools with the best performing, most deserving programs. 

That's not true.  Most of the BCS moves have been based on what media markets they could add to their conference.  For example, Rutgers and Maryland to the Big 10 had absolutely nothing to do with the best performing/deserving program. 
In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL.  They do not sponsor baseball.

[wh]

In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL.  They do not sponsor baseball.

I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration.  Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.

[EddieCabot]

In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL.  They do not sponsor baseball.

I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration.  Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.

Agreed.  I hope LeCrone can show some creativity in this expansion.  Detroit is not amused at his effort to reassemble the 1994 Mid-Continent Conference.

[classof2014]

I wouldn't be too upset if the HL did take IUPUI IF AND ONLY IF a) Valpo is out of the HL start of the 2014 season or b) IUPUI is a part of some giant unforeseen expansion of 4 teams this summer. If they're #4 I can live with it. I can see LeCrone wanting the Indianapolis market once again and he probably is tempted to do what the MVC did with taking on Loyola. If they're the only team or one of two teams then I wouldn't be too thrilled, it would be a GIANT risk, similarly to what the MVC did taking on Loyola. If IUPUI is a part of a large expansion then I don't care and I think it would be viewed as a good idea to possibly get Indianapolis back into the mix, afterall the HL is headquartered in Indy. If it's just IUPUI, guess it's better than just having 8 teams but... We all know the HL can do better.

Wouldn't be shocked if LeCrone's big move is getting Oakland and IUPUI... not too thrilled about IUPUI, if it were Northern Kentucky instead I'd be pretty happy with the move.

Like I said the only way I will support getting IUPUI if they are apart of a big 4 team expansion... if not I want OUT!!!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Like I said the only way I will support getting IUPUI if they are apart of a big 4 team expansion... if not I want OUT!!!

Again, though, what's the point of adding a whole bunch of teams just to add a whole bunch of teams? 

x money divided by 8 teams is a lot better than x+1-ish money divided by 12.

Thus, if you're adding real quality, then by all means add four!  But then you wouldn't be if you were adding the IUPUIPFWPNCs of the world.

[classof2014]

If IUPUI is apart of a 4 team expansion that includes: Oakland, Belmont, Murray State, etc... then I can live with IUPUI as number 4. Yes, if IUPUI is the only team coming to the HL, then I want out IMMEDIATELY!

[valporun]

I kinda look at the MVC's poaching of Loyola from the HL in the same equivalent of a fantasy sports trade being 'high risk-high reward'. For the MVC to take a risk in adding Loyola, they could get a high reward of poaching players from the Chicago area that really keeps Depaul and UIC from recruiting hometown talent. I'm interested in what will happen with the recruiting in Chicago now that Loyola can say "We are in the MVC now, instead of lost in the chaos of the Horizon League".

[LaPorteAveApostle]

If IUPUI is apart of a 4 team expansion that includes: Oakland, Belmont, Murray State, etc... then I can live with IUPUI as number 4.

I have as strong a distaste for odd and especially prime numbers as anyone, but, why would anyone ever do such a thing?

Would the B1G ever think, "eh, we added Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland, so we can afford to take a chance on SUNY-Plattsburgh"?

i realize you're too young to know this reference, so I'm posting it here for your edification:
Sesame Street - "One of these things..." (Bird seed)

[classof2014]

Here's how I'm looking at it right now. If the HL can add Oakland and either Belmont/Murray State we're in a better position than 2 to 3 seasons ago. Oakland replaces Loyola and since Oakland is better than Loyola we get a boost, and Belmont/Murray State replaces Butler, which is pretty much same  quality. I know Butler made it to 2 consecutive ncaa championship games but honestly they're never going to be back, at least not for another 20 years. So for the HL I'm looking at Oakland and one of the top two OVC schools as our best options for expansion. If Northern Kentucky comes instead of an OVC school I will be content.

[isu87]

I have no dog in this race, and I know noone wants the dakota schools due to travel, but what about this scenario.

Add Oakland, usd, sdsu, and ndsu. Then split into an east west league (6 per division). West would be Milwaukee, UWGB, usd, sdsu, ndsu, and UIC. East would be Valpo, Wright State, Cleveland State, Oakland, Detroit, and YSU.

12 team league. That is a pretty good league that would do well in the RPI and be right with the MVC, if not ahead.

WIU goes to the OVC, then IUPUI, IPFW, Denver, and UNO to the WAC. Problem solved, no more summit league.

also, I don't think the Horizon is realistically going to add an OVC school.

[Big D]

In regards to IUPUI, they have absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to the HL.  They do not sponsor baseball.

I hope there's more than baseball keeping them from consideration.  Otherwise, all they would have to do is agree to start a program and they're in.

If you go back about 1 year and read any of the discussions on any of the HL message boards you will find several quotes about IUPUI and IPFW.  I know WSU's AD pretty well and I've been told that all 8 HL presidents told LeCrone that those 2 schools will not be considered under any circumstances.   That hasn't changed in the last year so I do not understand why those 2 names keep coming up on message boards.

[Big D]

I have no dog in this race, and I know noone wants the dakota schools due to travel, but what about this scenario.

Add Oakland, usd, sdsu, and ndsu. Then split into an east west league (6 per division). West would be Milwaukee, UWGB, usd, sdsu, ndsu, and UIC. East would be Valpo, Wright State, Cleveland State, Oakland, Detroit, and YSU.

12 team league. That is a pretty good league that would do well in the RPI and be right with the MVC, if not ahead.

WIU goes to the OVC, then IUPUI, IPFW, Denver, and UNO to the WAC. Problem solved, no more summit league.

also, I don't think the Horizon is realistically going to add an OVC school.

I think there is a good chance the HL can add an OVC school if we try.  I am pretty positive the OVC will add at least one HL school if the HL is dumb enough to try to add any school from ND or SD.   Adding schools from MI, OH, KY, TN add good recruiting areas to the HL.  Adding ND and/or SD does nothing for the HL except add huge travel expenses to our sports.

[classof2014]

In the next 5 years here are the scenarios that I see happening to the Horizon League:

1.) The Horizon League is able to poach better teams from lower conferences, mostly from the Summit League and the OVC, possibly a few teams from western PA/NY. Thus strengthening the conference. I think the HL would need to act quickly because the good teams won't be in the conference they're in for much longer. If this were the case I don't foresee anybody leaving the Horizon any time soon.

Example: ADD Murray State, Belmont, Robert Morris, and Oakland MINUS No Schools

2.) The Horizon League get mediocre to poor teams from nearby conferences, if Oakland is the best team out of the expansion it would be categorized here. If Oakland was not the best team out of the expansion it would be categorized in the first scenario. If this were the case I could see some of the better schools in the Horizon leave for a better conference. But this would only be the top schools, Valpo & UDM probably look somewhere else.

Example: ADD Oakland, Northern Kentucky, South Dakota State, and IUPUI MINUS Valpo (MVC) and UDM (Catholic?)

3.) The Horizon League gets bad teams from the Summit League. This is the worst case scenario and would spell the end of the HL's credibility. I think if this were to happen very few current HL teams will still be in the HL.

Example: ADD IPFW, IUPUI, Western Illinois, and UMKC MINUS Valpo (MVC), UDM (Catholic), WSU (OVC), CSU (NEC)

[fargobison]

I see some people saying one Dakota school could be added and others three. It only works with two so you have travel partners, otherwise you end up taking one long trip the Dakotas for only one game in sports like basketball, volleyball or soccer which doesn't make a lot of sense. If you have travel partners you get two games out of the trip. 

I think if the Horizon went with PantherU's scenario 1 or 2 the league would be able to go head to head with the MVC any day and in a 12 team league travel wouldn't be too bad either.

I know NDSU and SDSU aren't in big markets and travel is an issue but both schools are well supported and have had plenty of athletic success. I think we add a bit more than nothing like a previous poster was implying.

[a3uge]

Once you add a Dakota school, you make it nearly impossible to recruit good schools from the east or south. Robert Morris or Belmont aren't going to want to play conference games in South Dakota every year. Especially in non basketball sports. Expanding northwest is the wrong direction. There's a limited pool in that direction. Expanding west to UMKC will have the same result to any eastern school.

[fargobison]

Once you add a Dakota school, you make it nearly impossible to recruit good schools from the east or south. Robert Morris or Belmont aren't going to want to play conference games in South Dakota every year. Especially in non basketball sports. Expanding northwest is the wrong direction. There's a limited pool in that direction. Expanding west to UMKC will have the same result to any eastern school.

Well if you are going to 12 schools I'm not sure why you are worried about recruiting more schools. That said I guess you would still have UMKC, UNO, WIU, Denver and USD out west to add...plus IPFW, IUPUI and WIU. It does sounds like Belmont is happy with the OVC and turned down the MVC, plus RMU and Murray State have football issues. I'm not sure if expansion to the east and south is any better than the west.

That said, as long as you maintain a strong league there are always schools that will want to join.

[Big D]

Well if you are going to 12 schools I'm not sure why you are worried about recruiting more schools. That said I guess you would still have UMKC, UNO, WIU, Denver and USD out west to add...plus IPFW, IUPUI and WIU. It does sounds like Belmont is happy with the OVC and turned down the MVC, plus RMU and Murray State have football issues. I'm not sure if expansion to the east and south is any better than the west.

You always have to be worried about attracting more schools because conferences seldom stay the same.  Belmont did not turn down the MVC.  They didn't get invited.   In regards to your last statement, that just doesn't make sense.   You want to add schools from areas that produce good recruits.  IL, IN, MI, PA, KY, and TN are areas that produce a lot of basketball talent.  If you comparatively look at the number of kids that sign D1 basketball scholarships from those states vs ND or SD it isn't even close.  For example, last year something like 30 kids from IN signed D1 scholarships in basketball.  I bet you can add up all of the kids that signed D1 scholarships out of SD and ND for the last decade and still not have that many.
I don't have anything against those programs, but their location does nothing for the HL.

[fargobison]

Well NDSU and SDSU are right on the MN border...that state does produce some talent. That said I think this talk of adding a school means recruits from KY or wherever are going to start flowing in is a bit overblown. Unless you are adding a school with a lot of appeal. I don't think adding IUPUI for example to the HL is going to do much of anything, it certainly hasn't meant much for the Summit League.

As for Belmont that was just the rumor that I heard, that they didn't want change conferences again and liked the OVC. The MVC also seemed frustrated that some schools didn't want to join.

[Big D]

Well NDSU and SDSU are right on the MN border...that state does produce some talent. That said I think this talk of adding a school means recruits from KY or wherever are going to start flowing in is a bit overblown. Unless you are adding a school with a lot of appeal. I don't think adding IUPUI for example to the HL is going to do much of anything, it certainly hasn't meant much for the Summit League.

School tend to recruit their immediate area and the area where they play most of their games.  Wright State probably spends 80% of our recruiting budget and time on kids from IL, IN, and OH.  We also recruit MI and WI, but not as much.  If you look at our roster for next year, 9 of our scholarship players will come from one of those states.  If we are going to be playing games in a new area (and potentially start recruiting that area) I want it to be in an area that has a lot of basketball talent.  ND and SD do not have much talent.  MN may have more talent than SD or ND, but that doesn't help any of us.  We won't be playing any games in MN if we add SDSU or NDSU to the HL so we wouldn't be getting any exposure in that area.  Exposure in the local newspaper and local media helps get your name out in recruiting.


The HL has to add 1 team with baseball to keep our automatic bid to the NCAAs in that sport.  The only reason the HL will expand beyond that is if we think adding 2-3 more teams will improve the conference enough to make us a consistent multi-bid league.  There is no reason to go to 12 teams if we are only going to be a 1 bid conference.  All that achieves is we end up splitting our NCAA tournament money 12 ways instead of 9.   We want teams that will improve the conference's RPI and name recognition.  We want teams that have baseball.  We want teams that make geographic sense.   We don't want to add teams just to add teams especially if those teams are going to kill our travel budgets.  Why do you think teams keep leaving the SL?  They want in a better league that has less travel.

[fargobison]

You are making a lot of assumptions about MN and what kind of exposure NDSU and SDSU get in that state. Some of that might not be accurate but I get our location is a huge drawback and we probably don't provide enough exposure in the Twin Cities to provide a big recruiting boost. 

I do think SDSU, NDSU and Oakland could help make the Horizon a two bid league...that was my point all along.

[Big D]

You are making a lot of assumptions about MN and what kind of exposure NDSU and SDSU get in that state. Some of that might not be accurate but I get our location is a huge drawback and we probably don't provide enough exposure in the Twin Cities to provide a big recruiting boost. 

I think you are grossly overestimating the amount of talent that comes from MN and the effect that playing SDSU or NDSU could have for us in recruiting that state.  Here are a few facts for you from Rivals.com.  In 2012, Eight kids signed D1 scholarships from MN.  Two kids signed from ND and 0 from SD.  From current HL states: 55 from IL, 29 from IN, 24 from MI, 19 from WI, and 15 from OH.     

In 2011, 16 from MN, 3 from ND, and 1 from SD.  54 from IL, 31 from MI, 23 from IN, 16 from OH, and 10 from WI.

I do think SDSU, NDSU and Oakland could help make the Horizon a two bid league...that was my point all along.

That is something we are going to have to disagree on.  I don't see those 3 teams elevating the HL enough to be a multi-bid conference.  If anything, I think adding SDSU and NDSU will be the beginning of the end of the HL.  It might take a few years, but I think at least 1/3 of our conference would leave if we ended up adding 2 schools that far away.

[fargobison]

Well I never intended on comparing MN to Michigan, Indiana or Illinois when it comes to basketball recruiting...Wisconsin is a better comparison. I'm not sure why I'm even arguing about this because I don't think there is a school that the HL could add that will have a big effect on recruiting, especially in new areas. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787

why i love this board

[FWalum]

reposted from http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=1263.msg28787#msg28787

why i love this board

I am not sure I saw that before, that is one great photo!