All-time Valpo Starting Five?

[dcvalpo]

With all the talk of the legacy of the graduating players and the beginning of the Bryce Era II upon us, I thought it might be fun to discuss our All-Time Starting 5's...you can only pick 5 and you have to list by the traditional positions---G, G, F, F, C

G- Bryce Drew
G- Lubos Barton
F- Casey Schmidt
F- Dan Oppland
C- Raitis Grafs

I know my team is fairly young, but that is a product of seriously following the program for only 20 years or so.  Would love to hear what you guys think, who your five would be, and why.

I hope this sparks some interesting off-season talk!

[valpo84]

I think I might replace Casey, move Lubos to the 3 and add Bruce Lindner at the 2. Dick Jones also needs to be considered for G. Joel Oberman was a rebounding machine as defense and rebounding need help unless this is solely scoring. Zoran may have had more toughness than Raitis and had a bit more D. Mo Smith is another all-around forward. And you have to look at Don Bielke who played in the 50s at F too.

[chef]

In the Homer Drew era, I think DC is correct. The five best players were Drew, Barton, Schmidt, Oppland and Grafs.

[vu72]

Anyway you cut it Bruce Lindner has to be in the top 5, and I could make arguments for many others too.  But just think about Bruce for a moment.

He averaged 27.9 ppg in his senior season and this was BEFORE the three point shot.  He also shot 89% from the foul line and scored 51 in a single game.  I would venture a guess that half of those points were made from distance so, with today's 3 point line that 51 could have more like 60!  One hell of a guy and player.  Say hello to him some time.  He's a season ticket holder.

[Valpo89]

Anyway you cut it Bruce Lindner has to be in the top 5, and I could make arguments for many others too.  But just think about Bruce for a moment.

He averaged 27.9 ppg in his senior season and this was BEFORE the three point shot.  He also shot 89% from the foul line and scored 51 in a single game.  I would venture a guess that half of those points were made from distance so, with today's 3 point line that 51 could have more like 60!  One hell of a guy and player.  Say hello to him some time.  He's a season ticket holder.

VU72, I appreciate your input and I know Lindner was a good player. I never saw him play, and I wish I would have. Your argument about the numbers also makes a lot of sense.

However I just think it's too difficult to compare eras, especially from the 1960s when the game was much, much more "run and gun" and officials actually called a foul a foul - not allowing today's "lock-down" defense.

I have no doubt, however, that Lindner could be considered one of VU's all-time best - just as Rick Mount is probably considered Purdue's all-time best player. Mount still has the all-time Purdue scoring record, without benefit of the 3-pointer. But I don't think he had that great of an NBA career.

The 3-point shot totally changed the game, and not necessarily for the better other than allowing physically inferior teams to get hot and upset better teams. But without doing research, I'm also pretty sure that scoring has gone DOWN since the 3-point shot was added in 1986-87. So, Lindner's 27 ppg may be the equivalent of 20 ppg now - still pretty darn good, obviously.

As for my starting five, I'd say the five mentioned by the chef is a good list, although I've never quite been as infatuated with Dan Oppland as others. In the Homer era, the others to be considered have to be Redmon and Zoran. And maybe Brian Sommer.

[hoopfan22]

I haven't seen them all but I have a hard time not having David Redmon in my top 5.
Drew
Redmon
Barton
Allison
Grafs

[vu72]

Anyway you cut it Bruce Lindner has to be in the top 5, and I could make arguments for many others too.  But just think about Bruce for a moment.

He averaged 27.9 ppg in his senior season and this was BEFORE the three point shot.  He also shot 89% from the foul line and scored 51 in a single game.  I would venture a guess that half of those points were made from distance so, with today's 3 point line that 51 could have more like 60!  One hell of a guy and player.  Say hello to him some time.  He's a season ticket holder.

VU72, I appreciate your input and I know Lindner was a good player. I never saw him play, and I wish I would have. Your argument about the numbers also makes a lot of sense.

However I just think it's too difficult to compare eras, especially from the 1960s when the game was much, much more "run and gun" and officials actually called a foul a foul - not allowing today's "lock-down" defense.

I have no doubt, however, that Lindner could be considered one of VU's all-time best - just as Rick Mount is probably considered Purdue's all-time best player. Mount still has the all-time Purdue scoring record, without benefit of the 3-pointer. But I don't think he had that great of an NBA career.

The 3-point shot totally changed the game, and not necessarily for the better other than allowing physically inferior teams to get hot and upset better teams. But without doing research, I'm also pretty sure that scoring has gone DOWN since the 3-point shot was added in 1986-87. So, Lindner's 27 ppg may be the equivalent of 20 ppg now - still pretty darn good, obviously.

As for my starting five, I'd say the five mentioned by the chef is a good list, although I've never quite been as infatuated with Dan Oppland as others. In the Homer era, the others to be considered have to be Redmon and Zoran. And maybe Brian Sommer.

As always 89, your imput is valuable and I'm not really in a position to challenge the notion about the game changing.  I will say that there  was a big difference between how Homer ran his teams, for the most part and how Gene Bartow ran his. 

I did see the 66-67 team play, which included Tommy Smith at the point and Dick Jones at the 2.  Also on that team was Steve Cook at the 5 who was maybe 6'6".  That team holds the all time scoring record, again, without benefit of the 3 pt shot.  They ran like crazy and I wish you guys could have seen Tom Smith distribute the ball.  By the way, Smith was maybe 5'8" but could run and shoot.  Anyway, at one game I was at Smith is racing down the floor suddenly looked into the stands and let a pass go which ended up in the hands of another streaking in for a break away layup.  I swear, the people in the crowd actually ducked, thinking they were going to have the ball in their laps.  He was that kind of a player, yet the glory went to guys like Cook and Jones. To add to the story Steve Cook, to this day still holds the 100 yard dash record at 9.9 I think, so you get the idea about what kind of athletes were on that team.  That was the year Valpo beat Purdue, although rlh would say it was an off year for the Boilers.

[bbtds]

Players worked extremely hard to better their game even with limited ability. And they ran and ran like soccer players. They also didn't have their heads filled with ideas from coaches that they were the greatest thing in short shorts headed for the NBA. Coaches like Wooden and Bartow treated them with gentlemenly respect.

[Valpo89]

Players worked extremely hard to better their game even with limited ability. And they ran and ran like soccer players. They also didn't have their heads filled with ideas from coaches that they were the greatest thing in short shorts headed for the NBA. Coaches like Wooden and Bartow treated them with gentlemenly respect.

And, parents probably weren't breathing down the necks of every recruiter/coach who came around. Or harassed the coaching staff. Different era in many regards.

72 - if Tom Smith had been as good of a coach as he was a player, maybe we wouldn't be discussing Homer and Bryce at all.
Actually, I think Smith has had a lot of success at the NAIA in Missouri. Maybe he didn't get the same support that Homer got once he arrived.
That's why I think it would be cool to see footage of the games from back then.

[vu72]

Now I'll tell you another Tom Smith story that addresses your point.

I ran into Tom in Minneapolis probably not long after Homer was hired.  His attitude had nothing to do with Homer, but he wasn't a happy camper relative to Valpo or Valpo's chances of success at the D1 level.  so here's the story: This goes back to Cleveland State's success in the tourney in what? 1989? Anyway, Tom was talking to the then President of Valpo and telling him about how everyone in the conference shared the money and so it was a good thing for Valpo athletics.  so you'd think the President would have encourage Tom and said how it would be good for Valpo to gain similar success in basketball.  Wrong.  Instead the president said, "Well, let's hope that Cleveland State continues to do well then".  True story.

[Valpo89]

Great story. Cleveland State's NCAA run was in 1986. They beat IU in the first round. It was my freshman year at IU and very embarrassing, but I knew Cleveland State was good, knowing their history at the time of being in the Mid-Con and playing against VU.
Of course, the next year IU had a little bit more success in the tournament.

I went to high school with Todd Smith. Good guy.
Just a different time for VU. Tom Smith didn't get a lot of help from the administration, and of course there's stories that Tom used to have a lot of "fun" as coach.

[Pgmado]

Funny you guys should bring this up. I'll have something interesting on my NWI blog in the next day or so about looking at some of the past teams. We may very well see how Oppland and Grafs would fare against each other. Harris against Nelke. Wood against Falu.

[vu72]

Funny you guys should bring this up. I'll have something interesting on my NWI blog in the next day or so about looking at some of the past teams. We may very well see how Oppland and Grafs would fare against each other. Harris against Nelke. Wood against Falu.

Terrific.  I'll look forward to it.  Also, could you hurry up and report that two bigs have committed to Valpo??

[valpofan56]

Now I'll tell you another Tom Smith story that addresses your point.

I ran into Tom in Minneapolis probably not long after Homer was hired.  His attitude had nothing to do with Homer, but he wasn't a happy camper relative to Valpo or Valpo's chances of success at the D1 level.  so here's the story: This goes back to Cleveland State's success in the tourney in what? 1989? Anyway, Tom was talking to the then President of Valpo and telling him about how everyone in the conference shared the money and so it was a good thing for Valpo athletics.  so you'd think the President would have encourage Tom and said how it would be good for Valpo to gain similar success in basketball.  Wrong.  Instead the president said, "Well, let's hope that Cleveland State continues to do well then".  True story.

That adds weight to my already pretty low opinion of Alan Harre. I know he did (was around for) a lot of important things for Valpo but I always thought he was kind of obtuse.

[vurich]

This is a fun and interesting thread.  Good choices so far, and while I can't necessarily disagree with any of the names posted, for me it's difficult to have an all-time list without Tracey Gipson on it.  Before Bryce, he was VU's all-time leading scorer and was really fun to watch.  He sometimes gets lost in the crowd because he played right before the VU program turned the corner in the mid 90's.  When you think about what he was able to do with very little around him (no disrespect to anyone on those teams), he is definitely on my list.  It would've been really interesting to think what he would have been able to accomplish if he had the opportunity to play with some of the players that came right after him (Casey, Dave, Bryce, etc.)

[valpopal]

This is a fun and interesting thread.  Good choices so far, and while I can't necessarily disagree with any of the names posted, for me it's difficult to have an all-time list without Tracey Gipson on it.  Before Bryce, he was VU's all-time leading scorer and was really fun to watch.  He sometimes gets lost in the crowd because he played right before the VU program turned the corner in the mid 90's.  When you think about what he was able to do with very little around him (no disrespect to anyone on those teams), he is definitely on my list.  It would've been really interesting to think what he would have been able to accomplish if he had the opportunity to play with some of the players that came right after him (Casey, Dave, Bryce, etc.)

Although I would agree with the starting five mentioned at the top of this thread, and I would include Redmon as a sixth man (my favorite to watch play because he could score from anywhere after passing the half-court line), I was hoping someone would mention Tracy Gipson. During those years before team success, Gipson's play was the main reason for enjoyment when attending VU games.

[lowposter]

Tracy Gipson was an absolute delight to watch.  He carried that team when there wasnt much talent.  The kid could flat out play...and had considerable hops.  Does anyone know where he is these days?

We started attending in 1984 or so.  Dan Palumbezio of Ball State came in for a game and we attended, then the next year picked up season tix.  There was a group of four families and we had a blast.  When Bryce came along, they kicked us out of the chairbacks and we ended up behind the scorers table and had even more fun. 

Does anyone recall the Harry Bell/Jim Ford era?  Both undersized (6'4 & 6'5), they were the bigs of the mid 80's. 

I am going to say that my VU team would include one of the Jenkins twins for mental and physical toughness.  Those young men were intense.  No, they didnt score huge numbers, but they were players.

Chris Emsminger will probably not make the team, but has there every been a young man that improved as much as he did? 

Lubos Barton was a little too slow to be a guard, but as a #3...just about perfect.  Anthony Allison could flat out score at the #3.  Dave Redmon was very talented.  When VU was winning MidCon yearly, we always had the leagues best small forward.  Always.

[humbleopinion]

I have nothing to base this on other than childhood admiration back in the 60's, but I was a big fan of Chuck Christian (I believe he played for Coach Meadows) and Rich Enon a few years later.

[vu72]

I have nothing to base this on other than childhood admiration back in the 60's, but I was a big fan of Chuck Christian (I believe he played for Coach Meadows) and Rich Enon a few years later.

That would be Chuck Kriston and yes, he still shows up on some top Valpo stats.  I was a high schooler when Chuck graduated and he was our boss at Camp Concordia in Michigan.  A wonderful man and a great player!

[humbleopinion]

I have nothing to base this on other than childhood admiration back in the 60's, but I was a big fan of Chuck Christian (I believe he played for Coach Meadows) and Rich Enon a few years later.

That would be Chuck Kriston and yes, he still shows up on some top Valpo stats.  I was a high schooler when Chuck graduated and he was our boss at Camp Concordia in Michigan.  A wonderful man and a great player!

Thanks.  I guess I've been mispronouncing his name for nearly fifty years.  And sometime we'll talk about Camp Concordia.

[humbleopinion]

BTW, was I right about Meadows? I can't remember exactly when he left.

[vu72]

Now I'll tell you another Tom Smith story that addresses your point.

I ran into Tom in Minneapolis probably not long after Homer was hired.  His attitude had nothing to do with Homer, but he wasn't a happy camper relative to Valpo or Valpo's chances of success at the D1 level.  so here's the story: This goes back to Cleveland State's success in the tourney in what? 1989? Anyway, Tom was talking to the then President of Valpo and telling him about how everyone in the conference shared the money and so it was a good thing for Valpo athletics.  so you'd think the President would have encourage Tom and said how it would be good for Valpo to gain similar success in basketball.  Wrong.  Instead the president said, "Well, let's hope that Cleveland State continues to do well then".  True story.

That adds weight to my already pretty low opinion of Alan Harre. I know he did (was around for) a lot of important things for Valpo but I always thought he was kind of obtuse.

Actually Alan took office in 1989 and the man in question was not Harre but his predessor, Robert Schnabel.  Schnabel was  a true academic, the first non-clergy President and a graduate of Harvard I think.  Basketball was far from his high priority list at that time.

[dcvalpo]

Guys, I'm really enjoying the history lesson here.  I know relatively little about the early days of Valpo basketball, but I eat this stuff up.  Thanks for posting!

[valpofan56]

Now I'll tell you another Tom Smith story that addresses your point.

I ran into Tom in Minneapolis probably not long after Homer was hired.  His attitude had nothing to do with Homer, but he wasn't a happy camper relative to Valpo or Valpo's chances of success at the D1 level.  so here's the story: This goes back to Cleveland State's success in the tourney in what? 1989? Anyway, Tom was talking to the then President of Valpo and telling him about how everyone in the conference shared the money and so it was a good thing for Valpo athletics.  so you'd think the President would have encourage Tom and said how it would be good for Valpo to gain similar success in basketball.  Wrong.  Instead the president said, "Well, let's hope that Cleveland State continues to do well then".  True story.

That adds weight to my already pretty low opinion of Alan Harre. I know he did (was around for) a lot of important things for Valpo but I always thought he was kind of obtuse.

Actually Alan took office in 1989 and the man in question was not Harre but his predessor, Robert Schnabel.  Schnabel was  a true academic, the first non-clergy President and a graduate of Harvard I think.  Basketball was far from his high priority list at that time.

Ahh, my bad.  I thought I remembered that Harre started in '87.

[dcvalpo]

This is sort of off-topic, but how do you guys see the new president working with athletics?  I know he is a bit younger, but have we seen things in him that lead you to believe support for athletics will change?