ITT, we discuss religions (Christianity vs. Islam) from the Oakland Thread

[historyman]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013306260036 "Ex-Oakland women's hoops player, Muslim says Christian beliefs were imposed unfairly by now-fired coach" Don't bother with the comments.  There are a lot of dumb people in Michigan. Oh, and Muslims are famous for NEVER imposing their beliefs, btw.

So you tell us to avoid the comments section, and then make that comment. 

I agree with 04. You have made one of the most offensive comments that can be made about people.

[/size]We show our prejudice by lumping a certain category of people together by saying because one or a certain number of that category of people has a certain trait that the whole group has that trait. Maybe an apology is owed.

[wh]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013306260036 "Ex-Oakland women's hoops player, Muslim says Christian beliefs were imposed unfairly by now-fired coach" Don't bother with the comments.  There are a lot of dumb people in Michigan. Oh, and Muslims are famous for NEVER imposing their beliefs, btw.

So you tell us to avoid the comments section, and then make that comment. 

I agree with 04. You have made one of the most offensive comments that can be made about people.

[/size]We show our prejudice by lumping a certain category of people together by saying because one or a certain number of that category of people has a certain trait that the whole group has that trait. Maybe an apology is owed.

Take a good look at this - a very good look - and then explain exactly what LaPorteAveApostle has to apologize about:

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Now, let's examine your comment: We show our prejudice by lumping a certain category of people together by saying because one or a certain number of that category of people has a certain trait that the whole group has that trait. Maybe an apology is owed.

Now, from the Koran: O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Do you see any irony here?  You should. 

[historyman]

Yes, the reference is to a group that had already condemned people to hell something that is very unchristian. The Qur'an also says

"We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about." 5:48

This can be argued for centuries and already has been. I do not wish to do it here.

If Moussa Mbaye had asked to be your friend you would have denied him?


Here is something I found online.


The most pointed way of treating other religions (like Islam) that I learn from the New Testament is in Acts 17:16-34.  The apostle Paul visits Athens, Greece and speaks about his faith to their leading religious philosophers.  It was a religiously pluralistic city, more like our post-modern culture today than mono-religious Jerusalem was in Paul's day.  So how did Paul treat their relgion in this encounter?  A few points:

1. Paul knew a lot about their various religions represented in Athens.  He quotes Greek religious texts three times in the brief speech we have recorded for us.   Application: DON'T MAKE IGNORANT CLAIMS OR CHARGES AGAINST OTHER RELIGIONS.  If a follower of Jesus wants to engage with people of other faiths, take Paul's cue - learn about them and show them you have a nuanced understanding.  Otherwise, we probably shouldn't say much about their religion, and hold our comments to positive affirmations of our own faith.  After 9/11, I spent the entire following Saturday re-reading the Koran, for example.  That's another story.

2. With each of his quotes from their religion, Paul used them in a positive manner that affirmed part of their belief.  He found a common starting point in the human desire to worship, and affirmed that.  He even affirmed two aspects of their belief.  Application: IT IS BIBLICAL TO FIND COMMON GROUND WITH PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS - including Islam!  Be biblical, not polemical. Much of what passes for 'Christian' criticism and fear of Islam is really, in my opinion, cultural bigotry justified by a shallow reference to religion.  When you are person to person, or person to group (like Paul), be Biblical and find common ground, find somethign to affirm (if you can't find anything to affirm in the other's religion, they are either a Satanist, or you are ungenerous in spirit and should just stay quiet).

3. Then Paul spoke forthrightly, unapologetically and positively about Jesus and the Christian worldview.  Included in his proclamation were clear statements about the primary theological shortcoming or error of their religion (idol worship).  Application:  Most of our words toward people of another religion, when the conversation is about religion, should be a positive focuse on who Jesus is for us.  Secondly, its healthy to highlight the true differences that exist between religions.  It helps no one, and is intellectually dishones (though popular)t, to pretend there are no differences. Note the differences, then speak positively again about Jesus and invite people to explore further.

[historyman]

I apologize for throwing this thread off course. If others wish to debate this in a general off topic thread then let the moderators move that part to that area.



Here is a recently posted story on the situation with Becky Francis on mlive:

http://www.mlive.com/goldengrizzlies/index.ssf/2013/06/fired_oakland_university_women.html

[wh]

If Moussa Mbaye had asked to be your friend you would have denied him?

Of course not.  Followers of Christianity are called to love ALL people, not just other Christians.  To do otherwise is sin.  Muslims , on the other hand, are instructed to love each other but despise Infidels - Christians and Jews.  To do otherwise is sin.  One religion was born in love, the other in hate.  Nearly 100% of global terrorism is done in the name of Allah.  All Apostle did was have the courage to call a spade a spade. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

All Apostle did was have the courage to call a spade a spade. 

Thanks, bro.

[valpotx]

Just curious, but are Hindus and Buddhists 'infidels' as well?

[covufan]

Nearly 100% of global terrorism is done in the name of Allah.

That is nearly true today, but when I think back 30-35 years, terrorism to me - and on the front page of most newspapers in the US, was Christian.  Mainly in Northern Ireland.  Gaddaffi, Khaddaffi, however you spell his name, was also up there. 

I'm only going on my memory.  With the internet, news comes at us much quicker these days.  30-35 years ago, the US news agencies may have put more of the Belfast bombings to the front page or on a news clip, since it was closer to home for most here in the US.  I don't know, just saying...

[valpo04]

If Moussa Mbaye had asked to be your friend you would have denied him?

Of course not.  Followers of Christianity are called to love ALL people, not just other Christians.  To do otherwise is sin.

2 John 1:9-11 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

One religion was born in love, the other in hate.

Citation please.

Nearly 100% of global terrorism is done in the name of Allah.  All Apostle did was have the courage to call a spade a spade.

Oh, and Christians are famous for NEVER killing in the name of their religion, btw.

Am I courageous?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Oh, and Christians are famous for NEVER killing in the name of their religion, btw.

If this is such a problem for you, perhaps you should find a team with a mascot unobjectionable to you.

[wh]

If Moussa Mbaye had asked to be your friend you would have denied him?

Of course not.  Followers of Christianity are called to love ALL people, not just other Christians.  To do otherwise is sin.

2 John 1:9-11 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

One religion was born in love, the other in hate.

Citation please.

Nearly 100% of global terrorism is done in the name of Allah.  All Apostle did was have the courage to call a spade a spade.

Oh, and Christians are famous for NEVER killing in the name of their religion, btw.

Am I courageous?

Trying to draw some sort of moral equivalency between barbaric Islamic behavior in modern day society and Christian behavior a thousand years ago?  Completely illogical, yet so safe and P.C.  Nothing courageous about it for sure.     

[valpo04]

Let's recap.  LAA basically says that a Muslim girl who had a problem with her overtly Christian coach (after being assured there would be no such issues during the recruiting process) doesn't have a right to be offended because a radical sect of her religion are terrorists.

WH applauds him, and says that all of Islam is hateful (using a passage from the Koran) and Christianity is the religion of peace and love for all.

I respond by pointing out a bible passage that explicitly says to shun someone who doesn't believe in Christ.  I also point out that Christianity also has a history of killing in the name of their religion. 

This elicits this response from LAA:

Oh, and Christians are famous for NEVER killing in the name of their religion, btw.

If this is such a problem for you, perhaps you should find a team with a mascot unobjectionable to you.

Way to miss the mark, buddy.

And this response from WH:

If Moussa Mbaye had asked to be your friend you would have denied him?

Of course not.  Followers of Christianity are called to love ALL people, not just other Christians.  To do otherwise is sin.

2 John 1:9-11 ESV

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

One religion was born in love, the other in hate.

Citation please.

Nearly 100% of global terrorism is done in the name of Allah.  All Apostle did was have the courage to call a spade a spade.

Oh, and Christians are famous for NEVER killing in the name of their religion, btw.

Am I courageous?

Trying to draw some sort of moral equivalency between barbaric Islamic behavior in modern day society and Christian behavior a thousand years ago?  Completely illogical, yet so safe and P.C.  Nothing courageous about it for sure.     

Recognize that my first two points were not addressed by either person.

And WH, if you prefer, let's compare modern day Islamic terrorism to...abortion bombings, the KKK, or the Olympic bombing. (Before this gets twisted in any way, let me be very clear that my point here is to show that Christianity isn't some perfect, peaceful religion.  It has nuts too.)


I don't really want to debate the religion aspect anymore, so I will leave it with this...

For me it doesn't matter what the beliefs are, if they are different and it was assured in advance (at a public school no less) that there would be no issue then there is a responsibility on both sides to ensure that happens. 

I'd also like to think people could look at this objectively without dismissing the girl's complaint because of her religion.

[wh]

You know what really matters to me right now?  That some Islamic jihadist nut case doesn't decide to blow himself up later this morning in the midst of 2 million innocent people expected at the Blackhawks victory celebration.   

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Way to miss the mark, buddy.

I don't think you understand either a) the nature and purpose of the Crusades or b) the entire history of conflict between the Church and Islam.

If anyone suffers from hamartia here, it's you.  No one said she didn't have a right to be offended.  I merely pointed out that Muslim evangelism is rarely as subtle as that to which Bachrouche objected.

[wh]

Business as usual in the Islamic world:

Later, in the northern part of Sinai peninsula, gunmen shot dead a Christian priest while he shopped for food in an outdoor market on Saturday.

It was not immediately clear if the shooting was linked to the political crisis, but there has been a backlash against Christians since just before and after Morsi's ouster. Attacks have occurred on members of the minority by Islamists in at least three provinces south of Egypt. Christians account for about 10 percent of Egypt's 90 people. Morsi's Brotherhood and hard-line allies claim the Christians played a big part in inciting against the ousted leader.

http://posttrib.suntimes.com/news/21170040-418/naming-of-interim-egyptian-prime-minister-apparently-canceled.html

[wh]

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/

Are the French the weakest people on the face of the earth, or just the dumbest most naive? 

[covufan]

Are the French the weakest people on the face of the earth, or just the dumbest most naive? 

Go to Google, type in "French Military Victories" and hit the "I'm feeling Lucky" button!

[vu72]

Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/7/french-islamist-mini-states-grow-into-problem-out-/

Are the French the weakest people on the face of the earth, or just the dumbest most naive? 

[/b]
Unfortunately, the British are not far behind.

[wh]

Duke University reverses decision, cancels weekly Muslim call to prayer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/01/15/duke-university-reverses-decision-cancels-weekly-muslim-call-to-prayer/

To think that the leadership of Duke University would have followed through with this if not for a backlash from donors is simply astonishing.  There cannot possibly be more useful idiots anywhere in American society than in academia. 

In political jargon, useful idiot is a term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.

[StlVUFan]

Duke University reverses decision, cancels weekly Muslim call to prayer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/01/15/duke-university-reverses-decision-cancels-weekly-muslim-call-to-prayer/

To think that the leadership of Duke University would have followed through with this if not for a backlash from donors is simply astonishing.  There cannot possibly be more useful idiots anywhere in American society than in academia. 

In political jargon, useful idiot is a term for people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.

OK, I'll put my head on the chopping block and ask: why was this SO OBVIOUSLY a stupid idea?

Note: I'm *not* absolutely throwing 100% support behind the idea.  It's not *obviously* a great idea either.  But absent elaboration, I'm left to interpret that only a complete moron would even suggest something like this, and I reject *that*.

[wh]

A quick Google search will provide you with the reasons Duke gave for reversing itself.  Once you have those in hand, you can decide for yourself how ill-advised the original decision was.  Let me suggest that you pay particular attention to comments made by the dean of the school of divinity at Duke, who said he was never consulted before the original decision was made and who called the decision to permit the use of a prominent Christian place of worship as a minaret* for Muslim proclamation ill-advised and inappropriate.

*Minaret - A tall slender tower attached to a mosque, having one or more projecting balconies from which a muezzin or a recording of a muezzin summons the people to prayer.

[historyman]

From another sports message board from someone with mates in the UK:

Some people who call themselves Muslims based in the UK use a medieval belief or something they pretend to believe in as an excuse to inflict violence on others. They do it directly or vicariously. When their associates and family member commit cold blooded murder against our people they refer to something than they pretend has offended them as an excuse for this backward mentality. They then think they have a right to lecture us about trivial matters or matters that have nothing to do with them and continue to threaten us. I'm not denouncing their religion. A belief/religion is not a tangible thing you can denounce. I denounce the people involved.

I appreciate this answer he gave on the topic of muslim violence against western people.

[StlVUFan]

A quick Google search will provide you with the reasons Duke gave for reversing itself.  Once you have those in hand, you can decide for yourself how ill-advised the original decision was.  Let me suggest that you pay particular attention to comments made by the dean of the school of divinity at Duke, who said he was never consulted before the original decision was made and who called the decision to permit the use of a prominent Christian place of worship as a minaret* for Muslim proclamation ill-advised and inappropriate.

*Minaret - A tall slender tower attached to a mosque, having one or more projecting balconies from which a muezzin or a recording of a muezzin summons the people to prayer.

I've been to Israel, I know exactly what you are talking about with the call to prayer.

Obviously since the decision was reversed, it suggests that it was not well thought out to begin with.

What I read between the lines is a rejection of the concept behind it, which is what I don't quite understand.

I don't really understand the Muslim call to prayer all that well since I'm not a Muslim, but how is a prayer ritual of another religion so offensive?  Obviously this particular implementation was clumsy and reckless, given the backlash and the lack of visibility with the decision making process as you mentioned.  But I thought you were implying that the underlying idea was stupid, and *that* is what I don't get.

[vu84v2]

Business as usual in the Islamic world:Later, in the northern part of Sinai peninsula, gunmen shot dead a Christian priest while he shopped for food in an outdoor market on Saturday.It was not immediately clear if the shooting was linked to the political crisis, but there has been a backlash against Christians since just before and after Morsi's ouster. Attacks have occurred on members of the minority by Islamists in at least three provinces south of Egypt. Christians account for about 10 percent of Egypt's 90 people. Morsi's Brotherhood and hard-line allies claim the Christians played a big part in inciting against the ousted leader.

Was just looking through some posts and saw this. wh - do you ever consider what you are saying? You equate the evil actions of muslim terrorists to the entire Islamic world. Not sure if you are just equating it to muslims in the middle east or the entire world, but both analogies are ignorant (no other word for it). Have you ever been to the middle east?  Have you ever known a muslim? If not, perhaps you might want to consider that before generalizing about entire populations of the world. No one despises ISIS or other muslim terrorist groups more than muslims and no one suffers from these evil people more than muslims.