VU/LCMS

[78crusader]

Couple LCMS pastor friends of mine have told me VU is a virtual "non-entity" with the LCMS.  VU wasn't even allowed to attend the triennial LCMS youth gathering this summer.  (I don't know exactly what this youth gathering is, but if VU isn't even ALLOWED to attend, things must be bad.)

This is really distressing to me.  VU has a long history with the LCMS and it looks like that is out the window now.  (Sort of explains why Ft. Wayne is not on the list of cities that President Heckler will be speaking at this coming year.) 

I completely disagree with VU's zealous approach of admitting students of non-Christian faiths (or of no faith whatsoever).  The administration can talk all they want about "having dialogue" with these folks, "searching for truth," "working with others from different cultures," blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that VU is trying to grow enrollment and increase tuition income and will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals, even at the expense of being a Christ-centered institution. 

Paul

[wh]

It sounds like it was an awesome event:

http://blogs.lcms.org/2013/youth-live-loved-at-gathering

Here's the list of sponsors and exhibitors:

http://www.lcmsgathering.com/Index.asp?PageID=14108

Apparently, VU was precluded from being a sponsor and/or exhibitor.  I believe that is what '78 means when he says, "VU wasn't even allowed to attend..."

[vu72]

Not even all the Concordias were listed as sponsors.  Do you know for a fact that Valpo was not allowed to have a presence or is this something you think happened as a result of not having Valpo listed??

[78crusader]

I have it on good info that VU was NOT PERMITTED to attend.

Wonder what President Heckler would have to say about this?

Paul

[usc4valpo]

vu72 Legend Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1741 Re: VU/LCMS « Reply #2 on: Today at 07:03:04 AM »Quote (selected)Not even all the Concordias were listed as sponsors. Do you know for a fact that Valpo was not allowed to have a presence or is this something you think happened as a result of not having Valpo listed??Report to moderator Logged Season Results:CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011 NIT: 2003, 2012 NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996-2000, 2002, 2004, 2013

Correct me if I am wrong, I think Valpo is not LCMS anymore, but ELCA.

[a3uge]

vu72 Legend Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1741 Re: VU/LCMS « Reply #2 on: Today at 07:03:04 AM »Quote (selected)Not even all the Concordias were listed as sponsors. Do you know for a fact that Valpo was not allowed to have a presence or is this something you think happened as a result of not having Valpo listed??Report to moderator Logged Season Results:CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011 NIT: 2003, 2012 NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996-2000, 2002, 2004, 2013

Correct me if I am wrong, I think Valpo is not LCMS anymore, but ELCA.

Unless something has changed in the last 3 years, they're both ELCA and LCMS affiliated. Both hymn books are in the pews.

[vu72]

vu72 Legend Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1741 Re: VU/LCMS « Reply #2 on: Today at 07:03:04 AM »Quote (selected)Not even all the Concordias were listed as sponsors. Do you know for a fact that Valpo was not allowed to have a presence or is this something you think happened as a result of not having Valpo listed??Report to moderator Logged Season Results:CBI/CIT: 2008, 2011 NIT: 2003, 2012 NCAA: 1962,1966,1967,1969,1973,1996-2000, 2002, 2004, 2013

Correct me if I am wrong, I think Valpo is not LCMS anymore, but ELCA.

Unless something has changed in the last 3 years, they're both ELCA and LCMS affiliated. Both hymn books are in the pews.

Neither LCMS, ELCA or Wisconsin Synod.  Independent Lutheran and always have been.

http://www.valpo.edu/lutheranlook/affiliation.html

[valpotx]

Couple LCMS pastor friends of mine have told me VU is a virtual "non-entity" with the LCMS.  VU wasn't even allowed to attend the triennial LCMS youth gathering this summer.  (I don't know exactly what this youth gathering is, but if VU isn't even ALLOWED to attend, things must be bad.)

This is really distressing to me.  VU has a long history with the LCMS and it looks like that is out the window now.  (Sort of explains why Ft. Wayne is not on the list of cities that President Heckler will be speaking at this coming year.) 

I completely disagree with VU's zealous approach of admitting students of non-Christian faiths (or of no faith whatsoever).  The administration can talk all they want about "having dialogue" with these folks, "searching for truth," "working with others from different cultures," blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that VU is trying to grow enrollment and increase tuition income and will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals, even at the expense of being a Christ-centered institution. 

Paul

So you are saying that Christians should only go to school with other Christians?  We will just have to agree to disagree on your point here.  For all those people who rag on Islam for being about 'extremism,' there are just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, with a similar mentality around the world. 

I've been open on here that I am not a religious person.  I was brought up that way, but decided in HS that I would live my life with good morals and ethical behavior REGARDLESS of religion.  It almost sounds like you are saying that only Christians can relate to other Christians, so we should keep everyone separate.

[a3uge]

Couple LCMS pastor friends of mine have told me VU is a virtual "non-entity" with the LCMS.  VU wasn't even allowed to attend the triennial LCMS youth gathering this summer.  (I don't know exactly what this youth gathering is, but if VU isn't even ALLOWED to attend, things must be bad.)

This is really distressing to me.  VU has a long history with the LCMS and it looks like that is out the window now.  (Sort of explains why Ft. Wayne is not on the list of cities that President Heckler will be speaking at this coming year.) 

I completely disagree with VU's zealous approach of admitting students of non-Christian faiths (or of no faith whatsoever).  The administration can talk all they want about "having dialogue" with these folks, "searching for truth," "working with others from different cultures," blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that VU is trying to grow enrollment and increase tuition income and will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals, even at the expense of being a Christ-centered institution. 

Paul

So you are saying that Christians should only go to school with other Christians?  We will just have to agree to disagree on your point here.  For all those people who rag on Islam for being about 'extremism,' there are just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, with a similar mentality around the world. 

I've been open on here that I am not a religious person.  I was brought up that way, but decided in HS that I would live my life with good morals and ethical behavior REGARDLESS of religion.  It almost sounds like you are saying that only Christians can relate to other Christians, so we should keep everyone separate.

I think people "rag" on Islamic extremists because Islamic extremists have blown up trains, children at a marathon, flown into buildings, etc. I would disagree with the notion that there are just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists that share that mentality. On Wikipedia, there's a list that references 8969 deaths[1] in relation to Islamic terrorism. I couldn't find a "List of Christian terrorist attacks" article. Not saying they don't exist, but certainly not to the extent of Islam (at least in today's world).

Now I'm not sure what your definition of "extremism" is but I would consider it extremism when there's a loss of life or limbs.

[1] From Wikipedia.org. Guaranteed to be completely accurate.

[vu72]

Couple LCMS pastor friends of mine have told me VU is a virtual "non-entity" with the LCMS.  VU wasn't even allowed to attend the triennial LCMS youth gathering this summer.  (I don't know exactly what this youth gathering is, but if VU isn't even ALLOWED to attend, things must be bad.)

This is really distressing to me.  VU has a long history with the LCMS and it looks like that is out the window now.  (Sort of explains why Ft. Wayne is not on the list of cities that President Heckler will be speaking at this coming year.) 

I completely disagree with VU's zealous approach of admitting students of non-Christian faiths (or of no faith whatsoever).  The administration can talk all they want about "having dialogue" with these folks, "searching for truth," "working with others from different cultures," blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that VU is trying to grow enrollment and increase tuition income and will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals, even at the expense of being a Christ-centered institution. 

Paul

This, from the Valpo website, would tend to challenge your position (or that of your associates) that Valpo is a "non-entity" with the LCMS.

http://www.valpo.edu/alumni/events/2013LCMSconvention.php

It'a coming up shortly, thus, not old news from the past.

[valpotx]

Couple LCMS pastor friends of mine have told me VU is a virtual "non-entity" with the LCMS.  VU wasn't even allowed to attend the triennial LCMS youth gathering this summer.  (I don't know exactly what this youth gathering is, but if VU isn't even ALLOWED to attend, things must be bad.)

This is really distressing to me.  VU has a long history with the LCMS and it looks like that is out the window now.  (Sort of explains why Ft. Wayne is not on the list of cities that President Heckler will be speaking at this coming year.) 

I completely disagree with VU's zealous approach of admitting students of non-Christian faiths (or of no faith whatsoever).  The administration can talk all they want about "having dialogue" with these folks, "searching for truth," "working with others from different cultures," blah blah blah, but the simple truth is that VU is trying to grow enrollment and increase tuition income and will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals, even at the expense of being a Christ-centered institution. 

Paul

So you are saying that Christians should only go to school with other Christians?  We will just have to agree to disagree on your point here.  For all those people who rag on Islam for being about 'extremism,' there are just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc, with a similar mentality around the world. 

I've been open on here that I am not a religious person.  I was brought up that way, but decided in HS that I would live my life with good morals and ethical behavior REGARDLESS of religion.  It almost sounds like you are saying that only Christians can relate to other Christians, so we should keep everyone separate.

I think people "rag" on Islamic extremists because Islamic extremists have blown up trains, children at a marathon, flown into buildings, etc. I would disagree with the notion that there are just as many Christians, Hindus, Buddhists that share that mentality. On Wikipedia, there's a list that references 8969 deaths[1] in relation to Islamic terrorism. I couldn't find a "List of Christian terrorist attacks" article. Not saying they don't exist, but certainly not to the extent of Islam (at least in today's world).

Now I'm not sure what your definition of "extremism" is but I would consider it extremism when there's a loss of life or limbs.

[1] From Wikipedia.org. Guaranteed to be completely accurate.

Recent instances in Myanmar/Burma show that extremism exists between all religious and non-religious mentalities.  I believe it is the Buddhist monks in Myanmar that have been doing things to Muslims in their country, causing Muslims to flee the country.  The same goes for the Swat Valley region of India/Pakistan, pitting Hindu and Muslim extremists against each other.  For Christian examples, you can look to Nigeria where the North and South of the country have rebels fighting each other, and doing some unholy things, but also Sudan/South Sudan, and in the past, Northern Ireland. 

[agibson]

I have it on good info that VU was NOT PERMITTED to attend.

What I heard (at some remove; my wife reporting things from facebook, but plausibly, if indirectly, sourced things from facebook) was that it was all rather last minute.  As if, perhaps, VU had planned a presence and was told rather late in the game that they wouldn't be allowed to have a presence (a booth or some such?).

From what I can tell, Valpo's long had something that I'm tempted to call a healthy antagonistic relationship with the LCMS.  Lots of LCMS members are core university stakeholders.  One of the campus pastors is LCMS, as are some members of the theology department, and lots of other faculty and staff, etc.  It seems like there have long been pieces (corners?  large pieces?) of the LCMS that find Valpo too far to the left.  And, it seems like Valpo's been a useful place for those LCMS members who find their church a little too far to the right, at least at times, to hang out.  Some of those people use Valpo as a springboard out of the LCMS, while others remain within the LCMS.

Whatever the shenanigans were this year at the youth gathering seem more or less consistent with that vision.

I was sort of wondering if IMC or Admissions would manage to make some kind of hay out of the events, maybe some sort of social media campaign taking advantage of this recent affirmation of Valpo's "bad boy" (or whatever) image within the LCMS.

Interested enough in your faith to be interested in a Lutheran or Christian university, but find the Concordia system a bad fit?  I'd be pretty happy to have more of that constituency at Valpo.

[Dave_2010]

From what I can tell, Valpo's long had something that I'm tempted to call a healthy antagonistic relationship with the LCMS.

Your perception was the status quo for a long time (including Harre's term as university president). As many in the know are aware, Dr. James Albers was the only LCMS-ordained VU staff member (in the 2000s) to never be brought up on formal charges by the Synod...nothing that big, as the LCMS is has a quick trigger finger when it comes to charges. However it is my understanding that the current administration has taken a much more antagonistic policy toward the LCMS. This includes a general feeling that the administration is beginning to meddle a little too much in the affairs of the Chapel.

If I remember correctly, in the spring of 2009 President Heckler stated that then LCMS President Gerald Kieschnick was no longer welcome on campus. This followed an unfortunate misunderstanding about a role the late Rev. Darlene Grega could play in a Chapel service officiated by Dr. Kieschnick. In the fall of that same academic year Heckler delivered a homecoming sermon from the pulpit angering many of the conservative (and even some moderate/liberal ELCA) members of the university community.

It is my understanding that the university constitution states that the position of "Dean of the Chapel of the Resurrection" is to be held by an LCMS-ordained pastor...if this is an incorrect understanding, feel free to correct the record. Instead of going through a process to amend the constitution (something unlikely to happen, given the current makeup of the board), Heckler instead chose to eliminate the position and place the Chapel under the direction of the Provost's office. The following year, the  ELCA Rev. Brian Johnson was hired as "Executive Director of Campus Ministries" to handle a great deal of the administrative duties previously held by the Dean.

Throughout the 2009-10 academic year the LCMS Indiana District President Daniel May was never on campus though he was invited to several services (namely the Chapel 50th Anniversary, Schnabel Memorial, and Baccalaureate services) and his ELCA counterpart attended. He instead sent a Vice President or other lower-ranking district officer in his stead. The rumor floating around campus for those that cared to know was this was done in protest of some of the university's actions in the previous year.

Most of this is 2nd or 3rd hand information to me, coming from spending too much time around theology students but I trust my sources...feel free to set the record straight if any of the above is incorrect.

[valpotx]

Ok, so I have always wondered about the difference between the ELCA and LCMS.  It seems that the ELCA is more liberal/Democrat-leaning, while the LCMS is more conservative/Republican-leaning in views?

[agibson]

Your perception [healthy antagonistic relationship] was the status quo for a long time (including Harre's term as university president).

And, for what's it worth, my on-campus observations are from 96-00, 05-06, and 11-present, though I also had some family around in some of the years in the cracks there.  And was following some things from a distance.

As many in the know are aware, Dr. James Albers was the only LCMS-ordained VU staff member (in the 2000s) to never be brought up on formal charges by the Synod...nothing that big, as the LCMS is has a quick trigger finger when it comes to charges.

Funny!  I've never heard it phrased quite like that.  (Did they have Walt up on charges?  No _huge_ surprise, I suppose...) Though, what you say about quick trigger fingers does basically resonate with what I've heard.

However it is my understanding that the current administration has taken a much more antagonistic policy toward the LCMS. This includes a general feeling that the administration is beginning to meddle a little too much in the affairs of the Chapel.

As reflected in your Kieschnick and Johnson stories?  Or, is this more of a general sense?  With perhaps other specific cases in mind?

If I remember correctly, in the spring of 2009 President Heckler stated that then LCMS President Gerald Kieschnick was no longer welcome on campus. This followed an unfortunate misunderstanding about a role the late Rev. Darlene Grega could play in a Chapel service officiated by Dr. Kieschnick.

That sounds like a rather strong thing for Heckler to say - I have a little trouble believing it.  The incident does sound unfortunate, but it sounds like a pretty extreme statement for a, normally fairly diplomatic seeming, VU president to say to the head of a body of core stakeholders....

Googling around,
http://welcomeproject.valpo.edu/2013/03/19/transcript-for-false-unity/
does give one other students view on the incident with Grega and Kieschnick.

In the fall of that same academic year Heckler delivered a homecoming sermon from the pulpit angering many of the conservative (and even some moderate/liberal ELCA) members of the university community.

News to me.  What was so upsetting?

It is my understanding that the university constitution states that the position of "Dean of the Chapel of the Resurrection" is to be held by an LCMS-ordained pastor...if this is an incorrect understanding, feel free to correct the record.

Interesting.  I have no idea where that would be written - but I don't know much about university governance at that level.

http://www.valpo.edu/generalcounsel/index.php (right-hand sidebar, "Bylaws") has a few documents, none of which seem to mention the chapel.

Instead of going through a process to amend the constitution (something unlikely to happen, given the current makeup of the board), Heckler instead chose to eliminate the position and place the Chapel under the direction of the Provost's office. The following year, the  ELCA Rev. Brian Johnson was hired as "Executive Director of Campus Ministries" to handle a great deal of the administrative duties previously held by the Dean.

Interesting!  I've never heard this interpretation.  I don't thing Campus Ministries is currently under the Provost's Office.  If anything, just from the academic-style "Dean", I'd guess it was more likely to have been (but still not likely to have been) under the Provost in the old org chart. 

What Brian Johnson doesn't have, and the Dean did, is a primary role as a pastor to the worshiping community of the Chapel.  Jim Wetzstein, LCMS, of course does.

You could be right about some of the motivation for the Campus Ministries re-organization, I have no idea.

Throughout the 2009-10 academic year the LCMS Indiana District President Daniel May was never on campus though he was invited to several services (namely the Chapel 50th Anniversary, Schnabel Memorial, and Baccalaureate services) and his ELCA counterpart attended. He instead sent a Vice President or other lower-ranking district officer in his stead. The rumor floating around campus for those that cared to know was this was done in protest of some of the university's actions in the previous year.

It feels like we kicked this story, or a similar story about absence from campus, around this message board at some point in the past.  And it wasn't as true, or as bad, as it initially sounded.  But, I don't remember the details.

Most of this is 2nd or 3rd hand information to me, coming from spending too much time around theology students but I trust my sources...feel free to set the record straight if any of the above is incorrect.

It's interesting, in any case.  Some of it rings a little strangely.  But, it's certainly true that the university's relations with the LCMS and ELCA has changed significantly since, say, 1996.  I'd always interpreted that as something of a warming towards the ELCA, which might implicitly alienate the LCMS, but I hadn't read it as a direct intention to distance the university from the LCMS.  In fact, I'm still inclined not to... 

But, an interesting perspective, for sure.

[agibson]

Ok, so I have always wondered about the difference between the ELCA and LCMS.  It seems that the ELCA is more liberal/Democrat-leaning, while the LCMS is more conservative/Republican-leaning in views?

From my perspective, they're both pretty big tents.  But, in broad strokes, the LCMS is more to the right, and the ELCA is more to the (center?) left.

The LCMS doesn't ordain women as pastors, for instance.

The ELCA has always ordained women (it's only existed since 1988 - a merger of some predecessor bodies, including one that broke away from the LCMS).  It now sometimes ordains gays and lesbians (in a sort of a region-by-region compromise).

To mention only two social issues.

[Valpo2010]

This, from the Valpo website, would tend to challenge your position (or that of your associates) that Valpo is a "non-entity" with the LCMS.

http://www.valpo.edu/alumni/events/2013LCMSconvention.php

It'a coming up shortly, thus, not old news from the past.

Anyone else gonna be attending this?  I am attending convention as a lay delegate and just received my invitation to the Valpo event.  Just throwing it out there, the convention information books and schedule of events lists that evening as "Concordia Universities Alumni Receptions". No mention of Valpo...take it for what it's worth...

[usc4valpo]

This conversation is a little disturbing and narrow minded to me. 

When I went to Valpo in the 80's, 40% of the students were affiliated with the Lutheran Church - that is all Lutheran Church denominations.  That means 60% were not.  To make it in this world, you cannot be so homogeneous in your religious beliefs.  It is a different world out there once you drive east and west from Valpo on US30.  Diversity, different religions and different cultures makes this country great.  Valpo is trying to strive even further on this, which is the right thing to do. They need to in order to maintain academic standards, funding, etc.

One other reality check - compared to most colleges and universities in the US, Valpo is a conservative school.  I am saying that is good or bad, I am just stating a fact.

[agibson]

When I went to Valpo in the 80's, 40% of the students were affiliated with the Lutheran Church - that is all Lutheran Church denominations.  That means 60% were not.

I don't have the numbers in front of me (I can probably get them if someone wants - I think I have them moderately handy for the last few incoming classes), but I suppose the number's a bit lower now.  Last year's freshmen class actually had somewhat more Roman Catholics than Lutherans.  Perhaps the first time that's happened.  The trend is back to "normal" now, but the number of Lutherans and RC are fairly similar.  (Looks like a big incoming class, especially for the "professional" colleges, maybe less of an uptick for Arts and Sciences; and maybe Law doens't look as good.)

[vu72]

When I went to Valpo in the 80's, 40% of the students were affiliated with the Lutheran Church - that is all Lutheran Church denominations.  That means 60% were not.

I don't have the numbers in front of me (I can probably get them if someone wants - I think I have them moderately handy for the last few incoming classes), but I suppose the number's a bit lower now.  Last year's freshmen class actually had somewhat more Roman Catholics than Lutherans.  Perhaps the first time that's happened.  The trend is back to "normal" now, but the number of Lutherans and RC are fairly similar.  (Looks like a big incoming class, especially for the "professional" colleges, maybe less of an uptick for Arts and Sciences; and maybe Law doens't look as good.)

Here are the numbers from Valpo's website (probably all classes not just freshman):


3,000

undergraduates



1,100

law and graduate students



From most U.S. states and about 50 countries



9.7%

international students



17.1%

U.S. minority students



36%

Lutheran



20%

Roman Catholic



44%

other faiths

[StlVUFan]

Nice to see this argument devolve down to bean counting, as if that's the whole point.

I take a backseat to no one on caring about Lutheran identity, but let's remember that Lutheran identity at its origins was about the *exact opposite* of separatism.  Lest that be misunderstood, the exact opposite of separatism is *not* universalism or relativism; it is about *not* creating new identities, but rather clinging to the only Christian identity there ever truly was when the church strays from it.

Whether VU is straying from it or not, trying to make sure the overwhelming majority of your student body is Lutheran is hardly a fix.

[agibson]

(Did they have Walt up on charges?  No _huge_ surprise, I suppose...)

Ah, OK, he was Seminex.  That makes a certain amount of sense.  (My wife reminded me that he was an _ELCA_ pastor.)

[agibson]

Nice to see this argument devolve down to bean counting, as if that's the whole point.

Oh, I don't know that this is has been as simple or monochromatic as you, or usc, are suggesting.  There has been some bean counting.  There have been some disturbing things posted.  But, that's not what we're all about.

[usc4valpo]

Nice to see this argument devolve down to bean counting, as if that's the whole point.

Oh, I don't know that this is has been as simple or monochromatic as you, or usc, are suggesting. There has been some bean counting. There have been some disturbing things posted. But, that's not what we're all about.

I never said this was simple and in reality I am not sure what you mean by beancounting.  If putting students into bucket classificiations is defined as beancounting, then it is part of the discussion.  But what got me perturbed was the initial discussion on recruiting Lutheran or Christian students inclusively, which I find narrow minded.

[agibson]

But what got me perturbed was the initial discussion on recruiting Lutheran or Christian students inclusively, which I find narrow minded.

Oh, I'm with you there.  And sorry if I painted with too broad a brush, I was suggesting that you'd done the same when saying "This conversation is a little disturbing and narrow minded to me.  " Pieces of it, for sure.  But, the conversation, like VU, has been a big tent