VU/LCMS

[vu72]

Just a small note to add to a pretty interesting discussion.  As Alan Harre correctly pointed out, the term "Christian" has been "hyjacked" by evangelicals/baptists who would require an outward profession of faith (coupled perhaps with a second baptism) to somehow "accept" or earn God's gift of salvation (can you tell us when you were saved??).  Catholics, although Christian (many if asked would say Catholic first!) although agreeing in writing with Lutherans concerning how we are saved, still confuse the issue via indulgences etc to this day.

Lutherans, while loving to fight with each other, are consistent is their reliance on Ephesians 2:8-9 " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God not of works, lest any man should boast"

While at least ELCA Lutherans are in full communion with other denominations (Episcopals etc) there remains reasons for debate and clarification of understanding.  While I agree that there is nothing in and of itself that makes Lutherans unique, as we concur with others on the means of Grace, there are still many very worthwhile Lutheran traditions that deserve preservation.  I would hold out the choral and great hymn traditions as two that in many ways are unique or at least unusually strong in Lutheran institutions.

Without labels, Valpo remains a very valuable place for open dialogue.  Can you imagine another Fan Forum where this discussion would have occurred?
Take a look at this UTube I found from the Valpo website.  I think it says much about the student experience: Abdullah Pratt

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Catholics, although Christian (many if asked would say Catholic first!) although agreeing in writing with Lutherans concerning how we are saved, still confuse the issue via indulgences etc to this day.

Interesting.  I would have said you were the confused ones.

We'll find out one day who was right!

[vu72]

Catholics, although Christian (many if asked would say Catholic first!) although agreeing in writing with Lutherans concerning how we are saved, still confuse the issue via indulgences etc to this day.

Interesting.  I would have said you were the confused ones.

We'll find out one day who was right!

I knew I would get your attention with my post.  Certainly no intent to offend.  Just a theological issue.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Oh, none taken!  This has been a very interesting conversation to take in, because pretty much all the Lutherans I knew in Valpo (the city as well as the school) seemed to come in two distinct stripes:

1) Jesus Christ came and died for the Missouri Synod end of story.
or
2) God so loved the world that God gave God's only begotten Child that whoever believed in It (or some other equally salvific path) would come to self-actualization.

I was sure this wasn't all there were, but it's still a stretch until you meet them.  My mother's famous line, "I grew up in NYC, so I thought I knew what a mixed marriage was; it took Valpo to teach me that it was LCMS/ELCA!"

Thus I have finally seen that there are thankfully many points between.  It's also interesting that there are still Lutherans who realize they must grapple with the very idea of Lutheranism, and what that means (e.g. as did Fr. Neuhaus), not seeing it as an end in itself but as a waystation toward something else--but what?.

Fascinating, and as (72?) said, what other team sports board is having these discussions?  E.g. MGoBlog has a strict "no politics or religion" policy.

Ut unum sint..., parceritos.

[agibson]

I grew up in NYC, so I thought I knew what a mixed marriage was

Italian and Irish?

[agibson]

Thus I have finally seen that there are thankfully many points between. 

I wasn't joking about the big tent!

Ut unum sint..., parceritos.

Nice use of the Vatican 2 motto!  I don't hang out enough with the RC crowd to have recognized it in Latin, but nice.

You've lost me on the second piece though.  Even with a google assist.  Littler partners?  (Affectionate diminutive?)  Something like that?  What language?  Is it spelled correctly?

[StlVUFan]

To put it another way, there is nothing about authentic Lutheran identity (== authentic Christian identity)

Reading your nice piece, I do wonder if your C-style logical equality here (==) is important.  It's absolutely important (even if, admittedly, not all members of Lutheran denominations may agree on this) to remember that there's no "Lutheran" requirement to look and act like "Lutherans".  A lot of the "core" values we might be concerned with are just part of what it means to be Christian.

I think we could well consider to what extent, and in what way, VU should reflect its Christian identity.

But, we might also reasonably reflect on to what extent, and in what way, VU should reflect its distinctively Lutheran identity, the extra trappings that _are_ distinctively Lutheran.  Even if much of that stuff is, admittedly, cultural and historical adiaphora, I think there's still a lot of fun stuff there, a lot of good stuff.  Even if there's no requirement that Lutheran worship look like Lutheran worship, I think that we get a lot of things "right" and there are practices worth lifting up, etc.

You may have a point there.  Of course, the issue here has been "catering" to identity markings of other religions.  Perhaps this is the assumption underlying Paul's complaint: in order to maintain VU's Lutheran identity, VU must promote that identity in a dominant fashion.  It is that very assumption that I am attacking here.  It seems to me that is a perfect way to diminish VU's Lutheran identity.  In other words, the cure is worse than the disease.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Italian and Irish?

Jewish and Catholic/non-Jew!

el parcerito:  Colombian street slang, maybe best translated as "homeboys"? 

I just decided I like the juxtaposition of that with the Latin : )

[valpo64]

Since when does this kind of discussion belong on the "VALPO FAN FORUM"  This is getting to be like a bunch of Lutheran Pastors of various denominations trying to show each other how much more intelligent they are than the rest of the group.   Maybe this should be called the "Valpo Faith and Doctrine Forum".

[agibson]

Since when does this kind of discussion belong on the "VALPO FAN FORUM"  This is getting to be like a bunch of Lutheran Pastors of various denominations trying to show each other how much more intelligent they are than the rest of the group.   Maybe this should be called the "Valpo Faith and Doctrine Forum".

I love that we can simultaneously celebrate and deride the fact that this discussion is happening on a board mostly focused on basketball and sports.  Fantastic.  A big tent indeed!

[agibson]

el parcerito:  Colombian street slang, maybe best translated as "homeboys"? 

Gotcha.  With Google Translate, I at least got the sense of it.  I think it guessed misspelled Portuguese.  So, not too far off, maybe.

[valpo64]

Sounds like another tent to me

[vu72]

Since when does this kind of discussion belong on the "VALPO FAN FORUM"  This is getting to be like a bunch of Lutheran Pastors of various denominations trying to show each other how much more intelligent they are than the rest of the group.   Maybe this should be called the "Valpo Faith and Doctrine Forum".

The subject is posted under "General VU Discussion". What to me is so fantastic about the Valpo faithful IS their intelligent, interesting points of view.  It say a lot about the alumni and friends of Valpo that they can have a logical discussion about issues other than sports, with which they are particularly concerned, that might effect the overall stature or image of Valpo. Can you imagine some the issues discussed here being covered on any of the other Horizon boards?  Never happen.

[valporun]

I have to agree with vu72, this kind of discussion about religion, politics, and general things going on in the world would never happen civilly on any of the other Horizon League boards or other university's boards. It's nice to hear what other VU alums, fans, and people enjoy talking about, and that we have a place to put those opinions out to more than just a small base of people that we talk with regularly at campus events or wherever VU alums gather on their own time. This has always been a great draw for me to come enjoy talking with other VU alums and fans over the years.