Valpo Opponents' Schedule & Results 2013-14

[LaPorteAveApostle]

If everyone above Bader on that list shot as many 3's, there is very strong possibility that Bader would end up on top of that list.

...this is the opposite of logic.

You have promulgated a self-defeating argument:

--You're saying that the reason his percentage is lower is because he takes so many of them (because...why?  does 3FG% have a Law of Diminishing Returns?).
--Implying Bader's percentage would rise if he took fewer of them.
--Therefore, Bader shouldn't shoot so many.  He should stop after 4-5 ATT a game, because he's just going to suck after that.
--So, in the end you agree with 2014 and EddieCabot, et al.:  Bader had bader not shoot so much.

Really, a breathtakingly poor argument.  I would say "stick to sticking up for your own players", but then it occurs to me...as a Detroit fan, there is like a 5% chance you're actually trying to belittle him in this manner.

If so, well done, and sorry I didn't give you more credit for mocking your rival so cleverly.

[FWalum]

If everyone above Bader on that list shot as many 3's, there is very strong possibility that Bader would end up on top of that list.

...this is the opposite of logic.

You have promulgated a self-defeating argument:

--You're saying that the reason his percentage is lower is because he takes so many of them (because...why?  does 3FG% have a Law of Diminishing Returns?).
--Implying Bader's percentage would rise if he took fewer of them.
--Therefore, Bader shouldn't shoot so many.  He should stop after 4-5 ATT a game, because he's just going to suck after that.
--So, in the end you agree with 2014 and EddieCabot, et al.:  Bader had bader not shoot so much.

Really, a breathtakingly poor argument.  I would say "stick to sticking up for your own players", but then it occurs to me...as a Detroit fan, there is like a 5% chance you're actually trying to belittle him in this manner.

If so, well done, and sorry I didn't give you more credit for mocking your rival so cleverly.

I can't believe I am going to do this but here goes... I actually understand motowntitan's logic. Oakland's offense is predicated on Bader taking a lot of 3's whether they are contested, off the dribble, in the pocket, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock or off the break.  Every team knows that is what is going to happen because in many cases he is the first option.  So as a defender I am going to try and be in the grill of that first option guy every time down the floor.  Now if I am the second or third option guy then I just love playing with someone like Bader because my opportunities, while fewer in number, are going to happen with much less pressure.  I may even shoot a higher percentage than Bader, but then again I don't really want to be taking the shots that he must take in the Oakland offense, if I did I might be shooting only 25% instead of 45%.

[StlVUFan]

From watching a few Oakland games this season he has done nothing to wow me.

You didn't watch the Cal game then, to name just one.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I can't believe I am going to do this but here goes... I actually understand motowntitan's logic. Oakland's offense is predicated on Bader taking a lot of 3's whether they are contested, off the dribble, in the pocket, early in the shot clock, late in the shot clock or off the break.  Every team knows that is what is going to happen because in many cases he is the first option.  So as a defender I am going to try and be in the grill of that first option guy every time down the floor.  Now if I am the second or third option guy then I just love playing with someone like Bader because my opportunities, while fewer in number, are going to happen with much less pressure.  I may even shoot a higher percentage than Bader, but then again I don't really want to be taking the shots that he must take in the Oakland offense, if I did I might be shooting only 25% instead of 45%.

That's not what he said.  He didn't say "if they were in Bader's place they would not shoot as high a percentage as he does", which may or may not be true; he said "if they took more they would miss a higher percentage of shots", which is still silly.

[EddieCabot]

That's not what he said.  He didn't say "if they were in Bader's place they would not shoot as high a percentage as he does", which may or may not be true; he said "if they took more they would miss a higher percentage of shots", which is still silly.

I agree that it's silly.  What's even more silly is that Capobianco, a 56% three point shooter, doesn't take more three pointers, since his percentage wouldn't drop with an increase in volume.  If he shot a 3 pointer on every possession, that would equate to nearly 1.7 points per possession and Valpo would be unbeatable.  Clearly, LAA has a better grip on the game than FWAlum.

[wh]

That's not what he said.  He didn't say "if they were in Bader's place they would not shoot as high a percentage as he does", which may or may not be true; he said "if they took more they would miss a higher percentage of shots", which is still silly.

I agree that it's silly.  What's even more silly is that Capobianco, a 56% three point shooter, doesn't take more three pointers, since his percentage wouldn't drop with an increase in volume.  If he shot a 3 pointer on every possession, that would equate to nearly 1.7 points per possession and Valpo would be unbeatable.  Clearly, LAA has a better grip on the game than FWAlum.

You had me at hello on this one EC, but the Bobby example was the icing!  Nice post!

[classof2014]

Doesn't just about every team have that one guy you need to prepare for and elevate the rest of the team because they draw a lot of attention

GB has Sykes
YSU has Perry
CSU has Forbes
VU has Dority
UWM has Tiby
UIC has Barlow
UDM has Howard
WSU has Arcenaux
OU has Bader

Each team has that one guy that you need to prepare for. Obviously some players are much better than others but each team has a guy to watch and just by doing that makes the rest of the team better. Other than his high PPG, he isn't anything really special. I'm sure he'll have games this year where he has 35-40 points because if he takes 15 3 pointers and hits 10 of them there's 30 points but those games won't happen often. Every shooter can get hot so yes, when he's hot it will look real good because he shoots, shoots, and shoots again. When he is off though, he might go 3-14 and have 11 points. If he truly elevates the play of his team that much shouldn't Oakland be much better than they are?

He's Will Bogan that shoots 3 Xs as much and thus has 3 times the points, he doesn't take many FTs only averages 4 a game, does't rebound much, nor is big on assists. Put Bader on any other team and I bet he is nothing more than a 3 point specialist. Kampe's coaching style plays into his game which is the 3 pointer. Like I've said he's a very good shooter but very one dimensional, like anyone he can have really good games.

Bader is a good player and he's in the perfect system. He's a good player but not among the very best in the HL.

[EddieCabot]

Right now he's not one of the 5 best players in the HL, perhaps when you were in the Summit he was but the HL he is not.

Very astute.  Bader is averaging 21+ against Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule, but once he's facing Horizon League competition, he'll be lucky to score in double figures.

[StlVUFan]

Right now he's not one of the 5 best players in the HL, perhaps when you were in the Summit he was but the HL he is not.

Very astute.  Bader is averaging 21+ against Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule, but once he's facing Horizon League competition, he'll be lucky to score in double figures.

[EddieCabot]

He's Will Bogan that shoots 3 Xs as much and thus has 3 times the points.

Once again, you're on point.  Bogan was a 40% 3 point field goal shooter, which is very good.  Why he didn't shoot more is a mystery to me.  Either he was way too unselfish or Bryce totally dropped the ball.  If you have a guy who can shoot 40%+ from beyond the arc, you have him shoot every time.

[classof2014]

He's Will Bogan that shoots 3 Xs as much and thus has 3 times the points.

Once again, you're on point.  Bogan was a 40% 3 point field goal shooter, which is very good.  Why he didn't shoot more is a mystery to me.  Either he was way too unselfish or Bryce totally dropped the ball.  If you have a guy who can shoot 40%+ from beyond the arc, you have him shoot every time.

Agree about that. Bader is a great 3 point shooter who isn't afraid to take a shot. Simply put Bader is in the perfect system for him to thrive. I would much rather have a Keifer Sykes or Kendrick Perry before a Bader type. Put Bader on Valpo he probably averages 10 or so PPG. While you put a Sykes, Perry, Tiby, or even an LVD type player they'll be successful in most any system because they can score in more than one way, to me that's what makes a great scoring threat.

[StlVUFan]

Right now he's not one of the 5 best players in the HL, perhaps when you were in the Summit he was but the HL he is not.

Very astute.  Bader is averaging 21+ against Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule, but once he's facing Horizon League competition, he'll be lucky to score in double figures.

Oh, pardon me.  I assumed you were being sarcastic.

Tell me you were being sarcastic.

[wh]

Right now he's not one of the 5 best players in the HL, perhaps when you were in the Summit he was but the HL he is not.

Very astute.  Bader is averaging 21+ against Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule, but once he's facing Horizon League competition, he'll be lucky to score in double figures.

EC, you were doing so well, but now you're starting to lose me. You may recall one of our early season exhibition opponents -Robert Morris College.  They had a guy that really went off that night from 3, hitting an amazing 7-14 attempts.  In fact, he had a great all around game.  And yet we did nothing special to try to shut him down, as we were clearly in control throughout. Do you think Bryce would have allowed that to continue unabated if we were playing someone we were more evenly matched against. Obviously not. Ryan Broekhoff came up against a lot more gimmick defenses in HL play than he ever did against OOC opponents that clearly overmatched us. I think Mr. Bader will find the same thing to be true, especially in the second half of conference play when the other teams know him and Oakland better.  As you know, the HL is a defensive minded league, far more so than the Summit. Teams like CSU, WSU and GB will be doing everything in their power to limit his 3- pt attempts.

[historyman]

Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule

Let's review that extremely soft non-league schedule:

North Carolina
UCLA
California
Gonzaga
Louisiana (Lafayette)
St Francis-Brooklyn
W Michigan
Rochester
Ohio
Indiana
Michigan St
Illinois St
E Michigan
Robert Morris
Defiance

I, too, hope you were being sarcastic.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Amidst all the sarcasm, let's assume that, for some reason, you stop being who you are and the more you shoot, the more your % declines.

(Never mind that if this were true, you should stop practicing immediately.)

If this were true, then either
--Bader is a chucker
and/or
--Kampe's offense is predicated on driving down his best player's efficiency through overuse and/or use in non-optimum circumstance.

Take a look at his True Shooting %, or eFG%, or PPWS, you name it--it says "someone is shooting shots he shouldn't".  Even his eFG% is buoyed by his almost 95% FT%.  From the floor, he's struggling.

If I didn't have an argument, I would just use sarcasm too, EC.

[EddieCabot]

Right now he's not one of the 5 best players in the HL, perhaps when you were in the Summit he was but the HL he is not.

Very astute.  Bader is averaging 21+ against Oakland's extremely soft non-league schedule, but once he's facing Horizon League competition, he'll be lucky to score in double figures.

EC, you were doing so well, but now you're starting to lose me. You may recall one of our early season exhibition opponents -Robert Morris College.  They had a guy that really went off that night from 3, hitting an amazing 7-14 attempts.  In fact, he had a great all around game.  And yet we did nothing special to try to shut him down, as we were clearly in control throughout. Do you think Bryce would have allowed that to continue unabated if we were playing someone we were more evenly matched against. Obviously not. Ryan Broekhoff came up against a lot more gimmick defenses in HL play than he ever did against OOC opponents that clearly overmatched us. I think Mr. Bader will find the same thing to be true, especially in the second half of conference play when the other teams know him and Oakland better.  As you know, the HL is a defensive minded league, far more so than the Summit. Teams like CSU, WSU and GB will be doing everything in their power to limit his 3- pt attempts.

Good points, wh.  It probably will be tougher for Bader in the HL when teams are more familiar with him and more focused on slowing him down. 

FWIW, IU is very aware of Bader and how good he is.  It will be interesting to see if they give him special attention tonight, and if so, how he handles it.

[talksalot]

I'm looking forward to watching Bader tonight against another "softie"... Hoosiers in Bloomington... ESPN2  7ET/6CT

[EddieCabot]

Amidst all the sarcasm, let's assume that, for some reason, you stop being who you are and the more you shoot, the more your % declines.

As crazy as it sounds, I believe this.  For the sake of argument, let's say that Bader takes 20 shots a game, consisting of:
- 5 layups
- 5 wide open 3 pointers
- 5 contested 3 pointers
- 5 end of shot clock heavily contested heaves

My guess is that if he only took the layups and wide open shots, he would be pretty efficient, and that as he incrementally takes additional, and more difficult, shots he becomes less efficient.  Agree?

So your next question will be why he takes contested shots instead of just taking layups and wide open shots, right?  Well, there is another team out there playing defense and sometimes they do it very well, leaving a contested shot as the only option.

Should Bader be passing up contested shots to pass to a teammate?  Possibly, but in the last 5 seconds of the shot clock, Kampe may feel that Bader from 25 feet is a better option than some other guy from 15.  Whether a given shot is a "good shot" sometimes depends on what the other options are.  A Bader 25 footer at the end of the shot clock may not be a "good shot" in relative terms, but it may the best they can get in that situation.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I really don't think we're that far apart.

The difference is you seem to subscribe to "heroball" (e.g. Kobe Bryant, Finals MVP, on 6 of 24 Game 7 shooting).  At least it's better than "feelingsball" (e.g. "he's a gritty leader whose impact can't be measured because it's PURE MAGICKAL and it's GRIT and SWEAT AND LEADERSHAPE"). 

I subscribe to a theory perhaps best delineated by noted 20th century philosopher Mary Chapin Carpenter:  "The stars might lie, but the numbers never do."

The number of shots it takes him to get to that number of points...just doesn't statistically seem like the best use of possessions.  And if he shot less often, he would find himself less contested when he did in fact shoot.

SCIENCE

[historyman]

I really don't think we're that far apart. The difference is you seem to subscribe to "heroball" (e.g. Kobe Bryant, Finals MVP, on 6 of 24 Game 7 shooting).  At least it's better than "feelingsball" (e.g. "he's a gritty leader whose impact can't be measured because it's PURE MAGICKAL and it's GRIT and SWEAT AND LEADERSHAPE"). I subscribe to a theory perhaps best delineated by noted 20th century philosopher Mary Chapin Carpenter:  "The stars might lie, but the numbers never do." The number of shots it takes him to get to that number of points...just doesn't statistically seem like the best use of possessions.  And if he shot less often, he would find himself less contested when he did in fact shoot. SCIENCE

Isn't "seem like" more of a "feelingsball" kind of verb. How can a person or even a number "seem like" statistically?

[truth219]

Oakland looks like hott garbage

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[justducky]

I really don't think we're that far apart. The difference is you seem to subscribe to "heroball" (e.g. Kobe Bryant, Finals MVP, on 6 of 24 Game 7 shooting).  At least it's better than "feelingsball" (e.g. "he's a gritty leader whose impact can't be measured because it's PURE MAGICKAL and it's GRIT and SWEAT AND LEADERSHAPE"). I subscribe to a theory perhaps best delineated by noted 20th century philosopher Mary Chapin Carpenter:  "The stars might lie, but the numbers never do." The number of shots it takes him to get to that number of points...just doesn't statistically seem like the best use of possessions.  And if he shot less often, he would find himself less contested when he did in fact shoot. SCIENCE

Isn't "seem like" more of a "feelingsball" kind of verb. How can a person or even a number "seem like" statistically?

Hmmmm

Keeping myself out of this Bader debate is looking more and more like one of the better decisions I have made in recent weeks. So don't pay me any mind I was just talking to myself. 

[classof2014]

Well Oakland got dismantled by a decent not great Indiana squad in an 81 to 54 loss.

To add fuel to the Bader debate Bader did acount for a fifth of Oakland's total point output with a whopping 11 points on 2-15 shooting and 0-10 from downtown. I think this proves a point that when Bader is off he still throws up a ton of shots and going 2-15 shows to me that either he needs to realize when he's off and let other guys shoot or Kampe needs to change the offense when Bader isn't shooting well. It's not like he did much else in any other stat column: 0 ast, 0 reb, 1 stl. He's very one-dimensional and when the shots aren't falling its not like he does much else to help the team.

Therefore, I rest my case on why Bader is not one of the top 5 in the HL.

[oklahomamick]

Green Bay lost to East Michigan tonight by 10

Evansville was leading Xavier for most of the game but then lost in the end. 

[talksalot]

Not a good night for the HL or for our Rippee...   Chef had it right when he did the ESPN call on the Purdue/EMU game last Saturday... that EMU team is good!     and I want to thank the family of networks for carrying the OU/IU game last night.  We all got to see how to beat OU.   

1.  Get their one and only BIG in early foul trouble (which doesn't seem too difficult)
2.  Keep Bader off the free throw line  (he won't go 0-fer very often...but they sure do live and die from 19'9").  They only ran the back door cutter a few times.

The OU - Michigan State game from the Palace at Auburn Hills is also televised (3pm CT, ESPN2).  Be interesting to see how Izzo handles this team with all of the injuries he has to worry about.

I have my tickets for the pre-game pizza party and the game at the O'rena on Saturday January 4.  5PM Valpo Time tip off.