Two Oakland players (Mondy and Williams) arrested for rape

[FWalum]

Been about 4 years since I was involved at the college level.  It was really hard for me to believe the activity level of a fair number of kids.  I would ask them questions about whether they expected to get married and what their spouses trust level would be if they knew about their casual attitude about sex and the number of partners they hooked up with before marriage.  They had no clue... it just seemed to be some kind of game for them.  I know that this all happened when I was in school, but not nearly to this level.

I am sure this really makes me sound old.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I am sure this really makes me sound old eminently wise.

there i fixed it for you

[a3uge]

You mean all of you didn't double team women with your best bro in hotel rooms when you were in college? Man, this is embarrassing...

Guess you guys just don't understand the life of a college athlete.

[wh]

America in decline; it's best days behind.  Rotting from the inside out.  No moral compass.  A rudderless ship headed for the abyss.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

no way dude.  not yet.  just split it into two, Israel in the north and Judah the south.  We'll last a lot longer that way.

[FWalum]

Pope Paul VI was prophetic in his encyclical against contraception (Humanae Vitae, 1968).  And while as a Lutheran I do not strictly oppose contraceptives like "the pill", its use by younger and younger couples outside of marriage has caused a societal shift.  Pope Paul predicted that contraceptive use would encourage man to lose respect for woman, considering her "as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment, and no longer as his respected and beloved companion."  Through abortion and contraception, women have been degraded to an object of sexual use. Many relationships now are devoid of any authentic interest in the other, because abortion and contraception have opened an even wider door for manipulation.  I have spent the last 13 years working with and developing vital records software (birth and death records) and the changes are dramatic and IMHO the root cause of most of the cultures problems. Today nearly 60% of all births are outside of marriage, young men, unless of extremely high character, feel little or no responsibility to the children that they father because all reproductive power is perceived to be in the hands of the women, the poverty level % of young women has increase dramatically and maintaining the educational level of young single parent children is educations biggest challenge. In other words the family structure is all but caput and children bear the brunt of their parent's indifference.  In rides the Government on its white horse to fix all of the symptoms while never quite understanding that the family must be preserved, promoted and incentivised in order to solve the real problem.

I relinquish the soap box.

[valpopal]

It seems Oakland has reinstated the two players already. I wonder what signal such apparently lenient treatment offers, and I find the following Kampe quote sadly amusing:

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I love you, FWalum.  You are the man.

[StlVUFan]

It seems Oakland has reinstated the two players already. I wonder what signal such apparently lenient treatment offers, and I find the following Kampe quote sadly amusing:

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

For all I know, he wanted to add (but was afraid to), "and we just had a major issue with that on our other basketball team."

According to some tweets I saw he's setting up "workshops and training sessions to address the incident and additional life skills." (Paul Kampe tweeted this today; I think he's probably got an article up on the Oakland Press talking about it).

[valpopal]

It seems Oakland has reinstated the two players already. I wonder what signal such apparently lenient treatment offers, and I find the following Kampe quote sadly amusing:

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

For all I know, he wanted to add (but was afraid to), "and we just had a major issue with that on our other basketball team."

According to some tweets I saw he's setting up "workshops and training sessions to address the incident and additional life skills." (Paul Kampe tweeted this today; I think he's probably got an article up on the Oakland Press talking about it).

"Workshops and training sessions": code language for giving the superficial appearance of doing something while doing nothing substantive. "I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted": code language for apparently anything goes and I can't do a damn thing about it even though I disagree with that notion.

[FWalum]

I love you, FWalum.  You are the man.

Back at you LAA. Lots of hours listening to Redeemer Radio, the Catholic radio station here in Fort Wayne along with Issues Etc., Lutheran talk radio podcasts. 

[VULB#62]

It seems Oakland has reinstated the two players already. I wonder what signal such apparently lenient treatment offers, and I find the following Kampe quote sadly amusing:

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

For all I know, he wanted to add (but was afraid to), "and we just had a major issue with that on our other basketball team."

According to some tweets I saw he's setting up "workshops and training sessions to address the incident and additional life skills." (Paul Kampe tweeted this today; I think he's probably got an article up on the Oakland Press talking about it).

"Workshops and training sessions": code language for giving the superficial appearance of doing something while doing nothing substantive. "I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted": code language for apparently anything goes and I can't do a damn thing about it even though I disagree with that notion.

Early on I predicted that the suspensions would just fall short of the HL season opener.  Well, I admit I was way off. WH, I agree -- society in the toilet.  And Oakland is leading the way.  Boys and girls, can you say AY BOM IN A SHUN???

[LaPorteAveApostle]

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

Yeah...that's...that's the worst PC expression I've ever heard.

No beliefs or ideals are at play--just the opposite thereof.  What a crock.

Is someone really going to tell me that Dick Harlan would approve of his friend any more?

[StlVUFan]

It seems Oakland has reinstated the two players already. I wonder what signal such apparently lenient treatment offers, and I find the following Kampe quote sadly amusing:

"I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted," Kampe said in a statement.

For all I know, he wanted to add (but was afraid to), "and we just had a major issue with that on our other basketball team."

According to some tweets I saw he's setting up "workshops and training sessions to address the incident and additional life skills." (Paul Kampe tweeted this today; I think he's probably got an article up on the Oakland Press talking about it).

"Workshops and training sessions": code language for giving the superficial appearance of doing something while doing nothing substantive. "I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted": code language for apparently anything goes and I can't do a damn thing about it even though I disagree with that notion.

And Oakland is leading the way.

"leading the way"?

Oh, C'mon.  Following is more like it.

Society has been in the crapper for DECADES now, and we can all find worse offenders than this.  I mean, I have zero sympathy for Messrs Mondy and Williams, but gee whiz, exaggerate much?

There's really nothing new under the sun.  There's just a lot more sunlight now.

[bbtds]

"leading the way"?

Oh, C'mon.  Following is more like it.

Society has been in the crapper for DECADES now, and we can all find worse offenders than this.  I mean, I have zero sympathy for Messrs Mondy and Williams, but gee whiz, exaggerate much?

There's really nothing new under the sun.  There's just a lot more sunlight now.

Agree. Actually about 10 to 15 years ago there was a similar situation at, of all places, Oral Roberts. Two players were accused of rape by a young woman. The woman later dropped the charges.

[StlVUFan]

"leading the way"?

Oh, C'mon.  Following is more like it.

Society has been in the crapper for DECADES now, and we can all find worse offenders than this.  I mean, I have zero sympathy for Messrs Mondy and Williams, but gee whiz, exaggerate much?

There's really nothing new under the sun.  There's just a lot more sunlight now.

Agree. Actually about 10 to 15 years ago there was a similar situation at, of all places, Oral Roberts. Two players were accused of rape by a young woman. The woman later dropped the charges.

That reminds me: the worst part of something like that, at least for me, is that there's no comfortable conclusion to draw from that fact.  It is, of course, possible that the woman was intimidated into dropping the charges, much like the young woman at Iowa when what's-his-name got his friend to stage a "Christian" intervention.

It is also *possible* that she dropped the charges because it didn't actually happen.

And no matter which conclusion we choose to draw about that, we run the risk of dehumanizing someone.  How do we know someone on the coaching staff didn't try to influence the investigation to bring about the eventual disposition whereby the charges were dropped.  Without knowing for sure, it can be irresponsible to seriously argue that position.  But, if we extrapolate from that the necessity to draw the opposite conclusion, namely that of course they raped her (for no other reason than we don't want to risk being guilty of blaming the victim), we risk committing an equal and opposite injustice against the players.  Not to say the risk is the same both ways, mind you, but there are risks with either conclusion.

Which is why, I think if I was Kampe, I'd be scorched-earth pissed at Mondy and Williams for saddling me with this impossible dilemma.

It sounds to me like Kampe is saying he's caught between a rock and a hard place.  Again, that's hardly his fault.  Of course, I'm an acquaintance of his, so I am hopelessly biased.  That's not sarcasm, by the way.  That's an admission.  I like the guy.  I would -- again -- point out that he's also faced with an additional dilemma because of his colleague who just got fired over imposing her values on her team.  Not feeling sorry for him; he's a veteran coach and I'm sure this is not brand new territory for him.  Like every other coach, and truthfully every other human being, I'm sure he's filled with a mixture of motives for everything he says and does, some good and some bad.

All I would say is that just because I would probably kick the two young men off the team permanently and revoke their scholarship doesn't make me feel superior to him because he's not going to do anything close to that.  You see, it's easy for me, sitting in the peanut gallery, to say what I would do in his shoes.  I'll bet my 401(k) if I *actually* was in his shoes, I'd do something very close to what he's doing.  It is very tempting to feel superior to someone because they are acting in a less decisive manner than you think they should.

And while the argument can be made that these young men are still growing up, the fact remains that they did this to themselves (to say nothing of what they did or did not do to the young woman), they let down their teammates.  There's a third thing just sitting out there for me to throw in there, but honestly I can't past the fact that I literally have no empathy for what apparently is a staple of "College Life" these days.  Being 55, I guess I'm too old to appreciate the new normal.  It boggles my mind, and I'm ill-equipped to connect with someone who thinks that way and then stumble like this.  On an intellectual level, I obviously get the temptation here -- I'm not innocent.  It's the matter-of-factness of it that startles me.

Good thing I'm *not* in Kampe's shoes.  I'd probably get up on my high horse and just make things worse.  The one beef I had with the guy fighting on the same side of that twitter conversation I mentioned the other day is that he didn't want to own up to being on his high horse.  I would have said, you bet I am.  You got a problem with that?  But if I were a coach, I also have a responsibility to coach and teach and manage team chemistry and a lot of other things I don't fully understand.  One way or the other, I'm absolutely certain I would make a worse mess out of it.

In short, I don't envy Kampe's shoes one bit, and I have a healthy respect for someone who accepts the responsibility to lead young men down the right path, knowing that one of them could spell the end of his career.  He's responsible for his own actions as coach, and I'm not his apologist, which is why I haven't tried to defend what he's said and decided.  I hope you'll understand if I don't join your conclusion that his training sessions are code language for sweeping things under the rug.  There's always the chance that it's not.

[valpopal]

In short, I don't envy Kampe's shoes one bit, and I have a healthy respect for someone who accepts the responsibility to lead young men down the right path, knowing that one of them could spell the end of his career.  He's responsible for his own actions as coach, and I'm not his apologist, which is why I haven't tried to defend what he's said and decided.  I hope you'll understand if I don't join your conclusion that his training sessions are code language for sweeping things under the rug.  There's always the chance that it's not.

My comments about training sessions being a way of doing something superficial while avoiding something substantive were not meant as criticism of Kampe, whom I like, but as a view of academia. It was obvious from Kampe's comment he did not agree with that solution but apparently was being forced to abide by guidance from his university's administration that he found at odds with his own beliefs.

In fact, I found Kampe's comment ("I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted") to be a not so hidden dig at group thinking in academia, especially in a public university, where the term "diverse" is too often used and abused to justify that almost any attitude or behavior is beyond criticism and consequence but to be "accepted."

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Well, I like your interpretation better than mine--for Kampe, anyway. 

Too many college athletes have intimidated women into silence--Naples High's own Carlos Hyde this fall at OSU.  I don't even exempt my Michigan, what with Brendan Gibbons still kicking FGs and getting applause. 

It's a shame, all the way around.

[wh]

Training sessions?  Training for what?  Kampe already said that basically anything goes in a "diverse" public institution, so what would the training be about?  Being more discreet?  The dangers of unprotected sex with a complete stranger off the street? Why breaking curfew is not a "good choice?" 

It certainly couldn't be about the act itself, or being a good role model, or representing Oakland University with dignity.  No, no!  That would be making a value judgement about the behavior itself, and who is anyone to judge another's behavior?  After all, what makes one's moral standards better than another.  Right?

[FWalum]

In short, I don't envy Kampe's shoes one bit, and I have a healthy respect for someone who accepts the responsibility to lead young men down the right path, knowing that one of them could spell the end of his career.  He's responsible for his own actions as coach, and I'm not his apologist, which is why I haven't tried to defend what he's said and decided.  I hope you'll understand if I don't join your conclusion that his training sessions are code language for sweeping things under the rug.  There's always the chance that it's not.

My comments about training sessions being a way of doing something superficial while avoiding something substantive were not meant as criticism of Kampe, whom I like, but as a view of academia. It was obvious from Kampe's comment he did not agree with that solution but apparently was being forced to abide by guidance from his university's administration that he found at odds with his own beliefs.

In fact, I found Kampe's comment ("I am at issue with the moral connotations of what occurred, but I work at a public institution where diverse beliefs and ideals are accepted") to be a not so hidden dig at group thinking in academia, especially in a public university, where the term "diverse" is too often used and abused to justify that almost any attitude or behavior is beyond criticism and consequence but to be "accepted."

Agree with you guys.  I don't blame Kampe for this (except that maybe he needs to monitor curfew better) situation and actual agree that the quoted part of his statement was rather bold and maybe a little risky, but he probably has a lot of equity built up in his coaching account. Glad I only had to deal with kids who didn't pass our mandatory drug tests.  Those situations where pretty clear cut.

[valpo64]

The OU is disgusting...period!   If you ever heard the Coach when he is on Detroit radio WJR as he is now and then, you'd think he was the model of college basketball coaching.  The last time I heard him, which was as month or so ago, he gave the impression that his longevity was a real asset for him and it helps him in running his program the way he wants to do it.  It just sounds like some major schools, football or basketball, programs who care more about their own individual success rather than teaching young men on lessons on life as it relates to the sport in which they participate.  Someone let the air out of Coach Kampe"s chest

Things like the OU situation should really make us appreciate Bryce and his staff.

[Oudrummer]

Hello Valpo fans! Always enjoy reading your board and have been lurking for awhile. Was finally time to chime in. Just wanted to bring a few more things to the table in regards to this. After reading the police report, it was stated in there that Dante Williams should never have been charged with anything.  The sex with him was admitted by the alleged victim to have been consensual. That right there throws the original story for a loop. Next, Coach Kampe and the university we're put in a spot by a terrible decision by these two. However, all they were really guilty of is making incredibly stupid decisions and breaking curfew. That's the hardest part of it for coach to decide how to punish. In the legal system they are totally innocent. On the court they can still be held accountable, but it's deciding what they're being punished for. Having sex isn't illegal. I doubt there's a team rule about devils threesomes (although it's disgusting and shouldn't have to have been placed in team rules) but the end story is he's having to punish them for bringing a bad light on themselves and the university. Last night Williams returned. Duke did not. He's traveling but not playing. He watched as OU lost a late lead be could have helped protect. The team is 0-5 and could be argued with Mondy they'd have won 2 of those games. He's getting punishment. But you can't punish a kid for something they didn't do. And that's the dilemma Kampe was talking about. Now back to lurking for me. Good luck this season to you guys. Except when you play us.

[bbtds]

but the end story is he's having to punish them for bringing a bad light on themselves and the university.

My guess is that at Valpo the punishment for this is a lot greater than at Oakland. And not just because of the institutional control issues.

[StlVUFan]

Hello Valpo fans! Always enjoy reading your board and have been lurking for awhile. Was finally time to chime in. Just wanted to bring a few more things to the table in regards to this. After reading the police report, it was stated in there that Dante Williams should never have been charged with anything.  The sex with him was admitted by the alleged victim to have been consensual. That right there throws the original story for a loop. Next, Coach Kampe and the university we're put in a spot by a terrible decision by these two. However, all they were really guilty of is making incredibly stupid decisions and breaking curfew. That's the hardest part of it for coach to decide how to punish. In the legal system they are totally innocent. On the court they can still be held accountable, but it's deciding what they're being punished for. Having sex isn't illegal. I doubt there's a team rule about devils threesomes (although it's disgusting and shouldn't have to have been placed in team rules) but the end story is he's having to punish them for bringing a bad light on themselves and the university. Last night Williams returned. Duke did not. He's traveling but not playing. He watched as OU lost a late lead be could have helped protect. The team is 0-5 and could be argued with Mondy they'd have won 2 of those games. He's getting punishment. But you can't punish a kid for something they didn't do. And that's the dilemma Kampe was talking about. Now back to lurking for me. Good luck this season to you guys. Except when you play us.

A fair recitation, although there's one more potential issue that you didn't cover: what if she were to get pregnant because of it?  Then I'd say that while there still would be no law broken, the offense would be slightly more than simply putting the university in a bad light.

By the way, I believe Mondy played today against St. Joe's, but you're right he didn't play against ULL.

[bbtds]

By the way, I believe Mondy played today against St. Joe's St Francis of Brooklyn, but you're right he didn't play against ULL.