Valpo vs. UCF (Round 2) @ UCF Tournament 1:30 PM 12/22 Game Thread

[LaPorteAveApostle]

That's not how arguing works.

You didn't say "a lot of people talked him up" and I disagreed.  Thus, your quoting people who praised him doesn't prove anything, nor does it win you any points.

Clearly a lot of people were and are excited, and not just us on the board--people close to the program, like Paul Oren, who I believe has called him the best player we have while observing scrimmages this past summer--although I can't find that source right now; Todd Ickow has said similar things. ("If your expectations are down for Carter, then trust me, he'll play well beyond your expectations. He's a very special talent.")

You said "there never seemed to be an acknowledgement [sic] that it was going to take Carter time to break in and work his way up to playing great."

You said never, so I disproved it with 5 easy examples. 

(none of whom, by the way, were Paul.  Which, correct me if I'm wrong, Paul, since you talk crap about pretty much everyone, but you never sounded a cautionary note about KC, did you, although you couldn't WAIT to berate everyone who believes he'll be something.)

Anyway, the best part of all of this is the posts you for some reason thought it necessary to quote also prove my point:
--You quoted FWAlum saying 'we don't need him to be a savior', and said he was asking for 4 ppg and 2 apg to be a difference maker.  Those are Marko Punda stats.  So he was hardly overhyping.
--classof2014, whom you quote twice, uses the subjunctive both times:  "might be our best", "might put us over the edge".
--So two DID use the indicative mood: ARCInsider:  "Keith Carter is going to push this team over the top", and atkins, "Carter is a more-complete guard than any we had...this year".  The former remains to be seen, and the second is probably already true.

If y'all feel comfortable relegating the guy Rick Majerus compared to Andre Miller to, I don't know, Jarryd Loyd status after two games in 20 hours with new teammates, one against a great HS team and the other against a good majorish conference team...then sorry.  This is the "fan zone forum" not the "negative nabobs' nincompoopery".

[justducky]

If y'all feel comfortable relegating the guy Rick Majerus compared to Andre Miller to, I don't know, Jarryd Loyd status after two games in 20 hours with new teammates, one against a great HS team and the other against a good majorish conference team...then sorry.  This is the "fan zone forum" not the "negative nabobs' nincompoopery".

At the risk of getting in the middle of an ongoing and competitive pissin match let me say that if Carter can walk right in and play at a Jarryd Loyd (upperclassman) level , I will in no way be disappointed. As I suggested in an earlier post maybe bringing Carter off the bench could have removed some of the expectation burden and provided a spark from the bench that a Coleman, Yeo, Capo or Williams are incapable of delivering. Loyd played his best basketball as a senior 6th man after starting much of his earlier career.

Is it possible that the combination of watching Keith do so much in practice and beating UCF so convincingly last month left the entire team with no realistic concept of the level of effort that would be required today? Overconfidence happens then somebody slaps you with a reality check. In fact our best offensive game of season still might have fallen short today without some significant improvement from the defense.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I don't think you meant to put your words in my mouth

When you lose by 30, there's no point in singling out one player, especially one playing his first D1 game in over a year.

I think what would bear more scrutiny, as delineated earlier, are Bryce's coaching decisions.  Knights were ready with an ambush, and he seems to have gotten outcoached.

It would be interesting to see how he has fared in rematches with the same team in the same season.  Obviously almost all of those are conference games where the home-and-home skews results, but it might be revealing.

[vu72]

Looking at the box score, I would say Keith had a much better game then our All Freshman Alec.  Keith goes for 6 pts on 2 of 9 shooting, 3 rebounds, 4 assts and a steal on only 1 turnover, while Alec goes for 3 points on 1 of 8 shooting, 5 rebounds (he is taller), 0 assts, 0 steals and 6 turnovers (his turnovers have been an issue).

So, is anyone ready to throw Alec under the expectation bus?  I don't think so.

[valpo64]

I think a few people need to sit back and relax a little.  Remember, Alec and the rest of the freshmen are FRESHMAN!  Keith basically played in his first collegiate game!  I  believe we have only 4 people who even played college ball last year.   This is what happens to a young team...up and down.  Has anyone seen Indiana play?  We will have many more good performances than bad ones.  However we will still have a "bummer" now and then.  In addition to our youth,  the UCF game was the dreaded last game before the Christmas break.  Again, relax and enjoy the Holidays as we look forward to the HL season and a New Year.

[wh]

We are now 0-4 in D-1 games in which we took more than 20 3-point shots. We took 28 yesterday, a crazy number for a team with our size and penetrating ability.  How crazy?  We have taken 28 or more only 5 times in the past 5 seasons (149 games).

[ARCInsider]

--So two DID use the indicative mood: ARCInsider:  "Keith Carter is going to push this team over the top", and atkins, "Carter is a more-complete guard than any we had...this year".  The former remains to be seen, and the second is probably already true.

Just to clarify...I believed Keith was the extra piece needed for us to win the HL.  But now I have been set straight by 78 and truth---Keith is horrible.  I've seen all I need to see.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Keith is horrible.  I've seen all I need to see.

[ARCInsider]

LaPorte...you of all people should have known I was trolling.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

And that is exactly why I posted an awesome pic.

[EddieCabot]

I watched the UCF game and thought the entire team came out flat and stayed that way.  As many have pointed out, it may be a case of the final game before Christmas blues.  On the bright side, non-conference games really don't matter for any Horizon team at this point ... from here on out, the focus is to win league games for seeding purposes and hope to play well during the HL tourney.

As for Carter, he really didn't do much to impress.  But since chef said he was a "unique talent" and pgmado voted him 2nd team all-league (while saying who could be 1st team), I'm willing to give him some time to adjust to DI basketball.  Those two guys know way more about Valpo basketball than I do and have access to inside info, so I'm willing to trust their opinions over those of people judging Carter based on his performance in one game.

[valpotx]

I just don't get you man.  You post so much sarcastic/mocking stuff, then you pull out the above, which is a realistic post.  I guess that your role is to be an enigma?

[oklahomamick]

Agree with Eddie, the whole team played poor.  I was at the game.  I watch almost every Valpo bball game via the internet.  I had free tickets and saw an ice storm was heading my way so I thought go to Orlando and watching the game in person was the way to go. 

I didn't understand the technical before the game that gave us two free throws.  Anyone know what I'm talking about or can tell me what was up with that?  It was our only lead. 

[VUfan]

The Game was a stinker! Take a break buy your wife, dog or cat something nice, enjoy a walk or ski  enjoy the season. The game is just a game, young college Basketball players will have good days and bad days, they will grow. Now the the Fans? Marry Christmas!!!!!

[valpotx]

Agree with Eddie, the whole team played poor.  I was at the game.  I watch almost every Valpo bball game via the internet.  I had free tickets and saw an ice storm was heading my way so I thought go to Orlando and watching the game in person was the way to go. 

I didn't understand the technical before the game that gave us two free throws.  Anyone know what I'm talking about or can tell me what was up with that?  It was our only lead. 

They said it was because UCF dunked during warm-ups.  I didn't know that was a rule.

[humbleopinion]

As I recall when the NCAA rescinded the rule against dunking in games, they retained the prohibition against dunking in warm-ups.  Over the past few years I have seen players come mighty close to doing what could be considered a dunk before the game. This is the first time I can recall that a penalty was assessed.

[talksalot]

They can dunk before the referees "take administration of the court" which is about 18-20 minutes left on the count down clock before the game.  When they come out on the court to watch the warm-ups... they have a few tasks.  1.  Count the players (to make sure the right number of players are in the book).  2  check for illegal uniforms (t-shirts have to match the uniform)  3.  meet with the captains    4.  CHECK THE BALL!  (ok, sometimes they forget to do that)  5.  make sure that after the 10:00 minute mark, the starting rosters are in the book (you'll see Luke Gore put in the lineups about 12:00)  and 6.  Watch for Dunking (they also are there to keep the peace / no taunting, etc).

The Clock Operators and official scorer meet with the officials about an hour before tip to go over timing issues and TV coverage, etc. 

Generally (like the Washington Generally's), the teams will come out and just do a shootaround, get loose... and will leave the court with about 30 minutes on the clock.   They will return in uniform between 22:00 and 24:00 and that's generally when they are told to stop dunking...since they don't know when the ref's will appear.  They teams will leave the court about the 10:00 minute mark; and return with about 4 minutes to go.  The refs leave the court during this 6 minute period to get rid of their jackets.   I'm not sure when the Knight player did his dunking.

[vu72]

That's pretty odd in that the no dunking in warmups goes back to when it was prohibited in games.  Don't know all the history but it does bring up a very funny Homerism.

So Homer is coaching his first game and two of his kids get caught dunking in the pregame and his team opponent is given free throws.  While is the locker room just prior to the game, and with the knowledge of the situation, his players are mortified, heads hanging etc.  So, Homer walks in, looks at the kids in question, and says, "that's OK, I'm just glad to know some of our players can dunk"!  His team went on to a very comfortable victory. 

[covufan]

What I remember from the 70's is that game dunking was not allowed, but it was allowed in the pre-game warm-ups.


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[VULB#62]

What I remember from the 70's is that game dunking was not allowed, but it was allowed in the pre-game warm-ups.


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Concur

[humbleopinion]

An interesting history of the dunking rules for your holiday reading...

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/2007/Association-wide/chronicle%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bjam%2B-%2B07-30-07%2Bncaa%2Bnews.html

My memory of the rule was correct, but the rationale I always believed ws in error.

[valporun]

I finally made time to watch the UCF game. We were slow, sluggish, and frustrating as a team. One major mistake we had was failing to communicate on defense. Never a true switch or fast move to follow the ball to make the weak side into the help side to stop the Knights's drive to the rim. Also, why were we playing a perimeter trap with our zone from 40 feet from the basket, and the rest of our zone collapsing on the free throw line to open up the lobs over top?

In terms of Keith Carter, he still has a lot of cobwebs going in game. Don't forget, game action is a lot different than many days of practicing at the ARC. These guys need to get used to Keith at games, not always easy to do in a first game against non-D1 opponen, and then game 2 being a rematch from about a month ago. Keith needs tomorrow's game to show that he's getting game legs, and the others need to shake off our bad pre-Christmas game.

[wh]

What happens if Carter has a great game tomorrow?  Is someone going to call out those who said we shouldn't expect a big contribution right away?  This discussion is silly. 

[ARCInsider]

Ok, you idiots who talked up Carter really have some explaining to do.

:/

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Clearly, we were putting the Carter before the H-O-R-S-E.

(And then he put it on tonight.)