Swimming

[vu72]

I was looking at some of the results from the Horizon League Championships and saw how far we are behind the other teams.

In the Track and Field Championships we did not finish last and posted a few championship performances.  With the addition of the new track this should only improve.

The swim teams are a different matter.  Our school records aren't even close to where they need to be to compete in the Horizon.

Here is an example (picked arbitrarily with no intent to single out this athlete):

Gonzalo Castro Diaz (Mexico City, Mexico) is the new record holder in the 200 yard butterfly with a 1:53.32 finish. The sophomore claimed 15th place with the record-setting time.

So this school record was good for 15th place??  Should we drop swimming?  The cost of replacing a very old pool will no doubt be substantial and unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.  What to do??

[a3uge]

I think one of the biggest problems is that the pool at the Super 8 off Laporte is nicer than the one at VU.

[valpotx]

The positive is that we are breaking school records, even though they are 20 seconds behind top finishers.  Maybe we will have a better pool setup in the fieldhouse, whenever that gets built?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I think one of the biggest problems is that the pool at the Super 8 off Laporte is nicer than the one at VU.

VUFZ SENTENCE HALL OF FAME

[HC]

I'm not sure how title 9 or whatever works, but I don't think swimming and diving is going anywhere. Especially when we are smashing records.

[FWalum]

My oldest daughter was a swimmer at Concordia Lutheran High School under then head coach John Gibson.  John is a very respected coach and now director of Northwest Aquatic.  At that time Concordia had one of the best smaller school teams in the state and was fairly competitive against big schools like Homestead and Snider.  My daughter was a "good" swimmer on that team, swimming the 500 (longest high school distance) and winning a fair number of meets. She came in 5th at sectionals her senior year with the sectional winner posting a 5:01:44.  She briefly looked at swimming at the universities she visited, one of which was VU, and in 2002 her best time, in the mid 5:20's, would have put her in the top ten all time in the 500.  If you know how grueling swimming can be, it is no wonder that an average high school swimmer does not continue on into college swimming.  If we are going to be attractive to more than the "average" swimmer than something needs to be done about facilities, either at the university or within a reasonable distance from school.

[historyman]

My oldest daughter was a swimmer at Concordia Lutheran High School under then head coach John Gibson.  John is a very respected coach and now director of Northwest Aquatic.  At that time Concordia had one of the best smaller school teams in the state and was fairly competitive against big schools like Homestead and Snider.  My daughter was a "good" swimmer on that team, swimming the 500 (longest high school distance) and winning a fair number of meets. She came in 5th at sectionals her senior year with the sectional winner posting a 5:01:44.  She briefly looked at swimming at the universities she visited, one of which was VU, and in 2002 her best time, in the mid 5:20's, would have put her in the top ten all time in the 500.  If you know how grueling swimming can be, it is no wonder that an average high school swimmer does not continue on into college swimming.  If we are going to be attractive to more than the "average" swimmer than something needs to be done about facilities, either at the university or within a reasonable distance from school.

This falls into the football category of student/athletes paying full tuition. I have no idea how many swimmers are on scholarship or how many share one scholarship but I suspect that the equivalent ratio is around 10 to 1 or higher/smaller. If you already have the pool and you can get students to pay tuition and come to Valpo for swimming with an equal number of men to women for title IX purposes why would you shut the program down. The great RLH is still whispering in our ears.

[vu72]

My oldest daughter was a swimmer at Concordia Lutheran High School under then head coach John Gibson.  John is a very respected coach and now director of Northwest Aquatic.  At that time Concordia had one of the best smaller school teams in the state and was fairly competitive against big schools like Homestead and Snider.  My daughter was a "good" swimmer on that team, swimming the 500 (longest high school distance) and winning a fair number of meets. She came in 5th at sectionals her senior year with the sectional winner posting a 5:01:44.  She briefly looked at swimming at the universities she visited, one of which was VU, and in 2002 her best time, in the mid 5:20's, would have put her in the top ten all time in the 500.  If you know how grueling swimming can be, it is no wonder that an average high school swimmer does not continue on into college swimming.  If we are going to be attractive to more than the "average" swimmer than something needs to be done about facilities, either at the university or within a reasonable distance from school.

This falls into the football category of student/athletes paying full tuition. I have no idea how many swimmers are on scholarship or how many share one scholarship but I suspect that the equivalent ratio is around 10 to 1 or higher/smaller. If you already have the pool and you can get students to pay tuition and come to Valpo for swimming with an equal number of men to women for title IX purposes why would you shut the program down. The great RLH is still whispering in our ears.

Well, because the quality of swimmer we are attracting wouldn't be able to swim for other schools in our conference and probably are at Valpo for academics reasons to begin with.  I suspect you are right about the scholarship thing--that being that we aren't offering enough to be competitive.  I doubt Title 9 comes into play as we would be taking away about the same number of male and female athletes.  There are costs associated with sponsoring any program--travel, hotels, coaches etc.  If we can't be competitive and facilities certainly aren't going to improve, then perhaps, just perhaps, we should take a look at dropping the program.

[valporun]

I don't think swimming/diving gets more than one or two scholarships for the entire program. I know in 1999-2004, track and cross country were sharing one scholarship for the men's team and one for the women's team. I hope that changes drastically when the new track and fieldhouse are built, as we'll have the facilities, and the same will happen for swimming/diving then too.

[historyman]

There are costs associated with sponsoring any program--travel, hotels, coaches etc.  If we can't be competitive and facilities certainly aren't going to improve, then perhaps, just perhaps, we should take a look at dropping the program.

My guess would be that 5 to 8 student/swimmers paying full tuition would pay for those expenses or Valpo wouldn't have a swim program now.

[vu72]

There are costs associated with sponsoring any program--travel, hotels, coaches etc.  If we can't be competitive and facilities certainly aren't going to improve, then perhaps, just perhaps, we should take a look at dropping the program.

My guess would be that 5 to 8 student/swimmers paying full tuition would pay for those expenses or Valpo wouldn't have a swim program now.

Yes, but if those students would be at Valpo even if we didn't have a swim team then we would still save funds which could go to improve other sports.

[historyman]

There are costs associated with sponsoring any program--travel, hotels, coaches etc.  If we can't be competitive and facilities certainly aren't going to improve, then perhaps, just perhaps, we should take a look at dropping the program.

My guess would be that 5 to 8 student/swimmers paying full tuition would pay for those expenses or Valpo wouldn't have a swim program now.

Yes, but if those students would be at Valpo even if we didn't have a swim team then we would still save funds which could go to improve other sports.

That's a huge "if" for students who train extremely hard and go through more than a lot of other athletes to give up swimming. I bet you would lose the 5 to 8 who's tuition pays the expenses of the swim teams.

[vu72]

There are costs associated with sponsoring any program--travel, hotels, coaches etc.  If we can't be competitive and facilities certainly aren't going to improve, then perhaps, just perhaps, we should take a look at dropping the program.

My guess would be that 5 to 8 student/swimmers paying full tuition would pay for those expenses or Valpo wouldn't have a swim program now.

Yes, but if those students would be at Valpo even if we didn't have a swim team then we would still save funds which could go to improve other sports.

That's a huge "if" for students who train extremely hard and go through more than a lot of other athletes to give up swimming. I bet you would lose the 5 to 8 who's tuition pays the expenses of the swim teams.

I understand and agree.  That is a big unknown.  The question is are our swimmers of a caliber to decide to go to another school to swim?  In our case, where school records equal a 15th place finish at the conference championships, my guess is the students would have to decide to swim at a smaller, D3 school.  Those schools in most cases don't offer the type or quality of an education at Valpo. So, do they switch schools to swim competitively for a few years, or do they decide to focus on their education only?  Because of the limited scholarship situation the difference in cost would be minimal.

[covufan]

With the right coach, facilities and a degree from Valpo, the swimming teams could become quite the program.  Maybe not nationally, but within the HL and the quality of individual graduating from the program. 

[vu72]

With the right coach, facilities and a degree from Valpo, the swimming teams could become quite the program.  Maybe not nationally, but within the HL and the quality of individual graduating from the program. 

Agreed.  But, the fact is that a new swimming facility has to be WAY down the list of athletic priorities.  With that in mind, the likelihood of a successful swimming program is uncertain to say the least.

[VULB#62]

I coached competitive swimming (in another life).  All you need is (1) a 25 meter/yard pool, (2) a good coach, and (3) a recruiting budget.  You need the kids and the pool. Period.   

Valpo is a SUPER target for swimmers (just like T&F and CC).  Generally, they are academic atheletes.  They are individual competitors who will spend 2-4 hours a day looking at a black line at the bottom of a pool.  I've done it.  It is boring as hell, but these kids go into another universe, because that is what they do.  Whether that pool is in a huge facility or just a basic pool IMO is immaterial when you factor in Valpo's academic reputation.  It's the degree and the opportunity to extend HS recognition that is important to these kids.   Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting!  -------------------------- Recruiting budget is the answer.

[mvandersee]

With the right coach, facilities and a degree from Valpo, the swimming teams could become quite the program.  Maybe not nationally, but within the HL and the quality of individual graduating from the program. 

Agreed.  But, the fact is that a new swimming facility has to be WAY down the list of athletic priorities.  With that in mind, the likelihood of a successful swimming program is uncertain to say the least.

How would there not be a new pool in the new fieldhouse? Every college that I visited prior to attending Valpo had nicer pools than the one in the ARC. Most of these were in newly built fitness/rec center type buildings (similar to Valpo's proposed fieldhouse). Even Bradley, which doesn't even have a NCAA swim team, included an aquatics area (lap pool, hot tub I believe) in their facility they opened within the last 5-7 years

[vu72]

I coached competitive swimming (in another life).  All you need is (1) a 25 meter/yard pool, (2) a good coach, and (3) a recruiting budget.  You need the kids and the pool. Period.   

Valpo is a SUPER target for swimmers (just like T&F and CC).  Generally, they are academic atheletes.  They are individual competitors who will spend 2-4 hours a day looking at a black line at the bottom of a pool.  I've done it.  It is boring as hell, but these kids go into another universe, because that is what they do.  Whether that pool is in a huge facility or just a basic pool IMO is immaterial when you factor in Valpo's academic reputation.  It's the degree and the opportunity to extend HS recognition that is important to these kids.   Recruiting, recruiting, recruiting!  -------------------------- Recruiting budget is the answer.

OK, I stand corrected on a couple of fronts.  We have a 25 meter pool now.  My impression (I'm not a swimmer) was that a 25 meter pool was very bush league. Hard to set records with all kinds of turns.  Perhaps it is the coaching and recruiting.  I was not terribly impressed with the coach when he was interviewed on the athletic coaches show. That is very unfair as I have no idea what his background is or how good a coach he might be.

Second, I must not have a very good idea of what the typical fieldhouse might include.  If a new pool is part of it then the facility change might not be as far away as I thought.

Let's all hope that our school records become Horizon League competitive soon!

[VULB#62]

We have a 25 meter pool now.  My impression (I'm not a swimmer) was that a 25 meter pool was very bush league. Hard to set records with all kinds of turns. 
Second, I must not have a very good idea of what the typical fieldhouse might include.  If a new pool is part of it then the facility change might not be as far away as I thought.

Let's all hope that our school records become Horizon League competitive soon!

With the right coach, facilities and a degree from Valpo, the swimming teams could become quite the program.  Maybe not nationally, but within the HL and the quality of individual graduating from the program. 

Agreed.  But, the fact is that a new swimming facility has to be WAY down the list of athletic priorities.  With that in mind, the likelihood of a successful swimming program is uncertain to say the least.

How would there not be a new pool in the new fieldhouse? Every college that I visited prior to attending Valpo had nicer pools than the one in the ARC. Most of these were in newly built fitness/rec center type buildings (similar to Valpo's proposed fieldhouse). Even Bradley, which doesn't even have a NCAA swim team, included an aquatics area (lap pool, hot tub I believe) in their facility they opened within the last 5-7 years

Couple of things --

Indoor collegiate swimming is usually conducted in a 25 meter pool because most facilities are set up for 25 meters, but the NCAA also allows for a 50 meter long course.   Some great indoor facilities have 50 meter tanks (allows for a separate diving tank and multiple work-out areas) but most competition is over a 25 meter course.  This is a link to Oakland's 50 meter pool.  Competition is at 25 meters though (movable bulkhead).

http://www.ougrizzlies.com/facilities/ou-aquatic-center.html

Cleveland State's is even better.

It would be great to include a state-of-the-art aquatics center in a new field house complex.  But haven't even seen conceptual drawings yet except for the 30 year plan map which only shows a big building. If an aquatics center goes into the field house, then I suspect that the old pool area will be repurposed as a part of the ARC renovation.

I didn't know this until recently but the biggest issue facing the athletic department is a lack of locker and support facilities inside the ARC.  It is very crowded.

[vu72]

We have a 25 meter pool now.  My impression (I'm not a swimmer) was that a 25 meter pool was very bush league. Hard to set records with all kinds of turns. 
Second, I must not have a very good idea of what the typical fieldhouse might include.  If a new pool is part of it then the facility change might not be as far away as I thought.

Let's all hope that our school records become Horizon League competitive soon!

With the right coach, facilities and a degree from Valpo, the swimming teams could become quite the program.  Maybe not nationally, but within the HL and the quality of individual graduating from the program. 

Agreed.  But, the fact is that a new swimming facility has to be WAY down the list of athletic priorities.  With that in mind, the likelihood of a successful swimming program is uncertain to say the least.

How would there not be a new pool in the new fieldhouse? Every college that I visited prior to attending Valpo had nicer pools than the one in the ARC. Most of these were in newly built fitness/rec center type buildings (similar to Valpo's proposed fieldhouse). Even Bradley, which doesn't even have a NCAA swim team, included an aquatics area (lap pool, hot tub I believe) in their facility they opened within the last 5-7 years

Couple of things --

Indoor collegiate swimming is usually conducted in a 25 meter pool because most facilities are set up for 25 meters, but the NCAA also allows for a 50 meter long course.   Some great indoor facilities have 50 meter tanks (allows for a separate diving tank and multiple work-out areas) but most competition is over a 25 meter course.  This is a link to Oakland's 50 meter pool.  Competition is at 25 meters though (movable bulkhead).

http://www.ougrizzlies.com/facilities/ou-aquatic-center.html

Cleveland State's is even better.

It would be great to include a state-of-the-art aquatics center in a new field house complex.  But haven't even seen conceptual drawings yet except for the 30 year plan map which only shows a big building. If an aquatics center goes into the field house, then I suspect that the old pool area will be repurposed as a part of the ARC renovation.

I didn't know this until recently but the biggest issue facing the athletic department is a lack of locker and support facilities inside the ARC. It is very crowded.

When you think about it, the ARC was finished in 1984, about the same time as full implementation of Title IX. At that time no one understood that women's sports would be required to match men's.  So the addition of women's soccer, volleyball, softball etc made for added coaches and the need foe many more locker room and training facilities to name just some of the issues.  It has been a "shoehorn" issue ever since.

[bbtds]

How would there not be a new pool in the new fieldhouse?

Funding! Right now space has been allowed for these facilities on the master plan and that is all. Funding must be secured in order to build these facilities. Look at how the FITT project happened. If funding can not be secured to build the pool inside the new fieldhouse it won't be built. Or space will be saved next to the fieldhouse for a pool but that space will stand empty for many years with the excuse that there was not enough money raised. We will all be reminded every time we see the new fieldhouse that a pool was to be built and for 10 years or more student/swimmers who were promised a new pool by a recruiter will graduate without ever being able to compete in a swim meet in a new Valpo pool.

So unless money is raised everything is just a dream--a good vision--but only a vision of what should be.

Now open up your wallets and let's get those future Valpo swimmers and divers their Valpo pool!!!



Oh, yeah. Let's help finish funding that track for the T&F and CC student/athletes too.

[covufan]

My impression (I'm not a swimmer) was that a 25 meter pool was very bush league. Hard to set records with all kinds of turns.

Huh?  I think if you check the records, they have records for distances in a 25 meter and 50 meter pool.  The 25 meter pool time is generally better because of the turns (pushing off the wall vice swimming).  I could see having a 25 yard pool vice 25 meters, might be considered inadequat, but certainly not bush league. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Let's hear it for swimming at VU, though, whoever knew this many people cared until this thread?

[vu72]

My impression (I'm not a swimmer) was that a 25 meter pool was very bush league. Hard to set records with all kinds of turns.

Huh?  I think if you check the records, they have records for distances in a 25 meter and 50 meter pool.  The 25 meter pool time is generally better because of the turns (pushing off the wall vice swimming).  I could see having a 25 yard pool vice 25 meters, might be considered inadequat, but certainly not bush league. 

Like I said, I'm not a swimmer.  My "impression" was obviously wrong.  Perhaps I was trying to find an excuse for our teams last place performances.

[VULB#62]

I still say it comes down to a go-get 'em coach, an increased recruiting budget (and some additional athletic scholarship aid to sweeten the attraction). How is tennis now competitive?  Golf is greatly improved.  A new track will attract better track athletes (if the coaches can close the deal). It can be done.  In swimming it can be as little as getting just 2 or 3 good swimmers who can score in multiple events.  So instead of finishing last, it's the middle of the pack  for the team.  Then success builds on success.

Facilities cost millions.  A recruiting budget and athletic scholarship aid is a drop in the bucket by comparison.