Buzz Williams leaving Marquette for VA Tech

[LaPorteAveApostle]

It's common knowledge (confirmed by BigD WSU)

i don't believe anything until Jimmy the Panther tweets it

EDIT:

I refuse to believe a word of this until it's confirmed by a reputable source like Jimmy from PantherU.

Jimmy actually had the scoop 6 years in advance.

wow.  great mimes think alike.

[oklahomamick]

They landed in the Horizon League, which is some improvement over the Mid Con, but mostly it was a lateral move with less travel.

Not in 2001, but now in 2014, I would agree.  It's almost lateral.  Fact is the current HL is not the same as 2001.  No at large, no NCAA tourney wins.  Butler had majority (maybe all the at-larges) but teams like Cleveland St. and UWM knocked them off and won a game or two in the NCAA.  UWM is not as good of a program as it was in 2001-2005.  (Might be because Pearl was in place, probably cheating...). 

Should UWM, UWGB, Detroit, UIC, Wright State, Cleveland State, YSU be even more disappointed?

Yes, they should be disappointed.  Disapointed in themselves and the HL.  As said before, these programs aren't as good as they were in the early 2000's.  Especially UWM and Cleveland St.  CSU has produced a quality NBA'er but hasn't had the team success of winning HL's, big non-conference wins, or ncaa wins in a long time.  Disapointed in the HL beacause the league has lost teams and has not been aggressive in replacing them.  Don't know if the HL can do much about that....but those are the facts.  Quality has decreased and even quantity has decreased....(also wished we had travel partners)  I know travel as a college student is not fun, difficult, demanding and strainful.  I experienced the type of travel as a student at Valpo with the soccer team from 01-05.  I also experienced it as a coach in the summit for a couple years at ORU.  Thursday leave from Tulsa to Macomb for a Saturday game, no easy way to get there...come back to Tulsa and then leave again on Thursday for Fort Wayne.  The kids missed several classes. 

[milanmiracle]

Still waiting for someone to provide a legitimate route Valpo could have gone in the past or now that would be an upgrade over the HL.

Who knows because that's based on things that never happened...

It's like saying where would I have ended up as a basketball player if I grew 6" taller. Valpo didn't do anything to increase their status, and therefore never gained any new opportunities. They landed in the Horizon League, which is some improvement over the Mid Con, but mostly it was a lateral move with less travel. It doesn't happen often, but there are plenty of teams who joined bigger conferences such as the A10, MVC, and Big East all from the Horizon League, and not just Butler!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League

Let me see if I can address your question, at least indirectly.  It's common knowledge (confirmed by BigD WSU) that Valpo declined an invitation to join the HL in 2001, after which the league invited YSU.  Why would we decline the very thing we jumped at 7 years later?  Could it have had anything to do with the fact that our former AD and the then Mid Con Conference Commissioner are father/son?  You can answer that for yourself.  In any event, instead of accepting a promotion to a higher rated, higher profile conference only 3 years after our Sweet-16 run, we inexplicably and inexcusably continued to flounder in the wretched Mid Con for another 7 freaking years! 7 more years Homer Drew was left to struggle to try to recruit quality players to play in a no-name league against no-name opponents in far distant lands, while the success of '98 became increasingly more distant. 

Finally, our current AD had the good sense to make the move, and our program continues on the upswing as a result.  So what did we lose by waiting 7 years?  We completely squandered all the publicity and good will we received in the aftermath of our highly publicized cinderella story.  Just threw it away because the powers that were either didn't have enough common sense to realize what they had, or they were more concerned with self interest over what was clearly in the best interest of the university.

So, is it unreasonable to think that had we made the move to the HL 7 years before we did that we could have landed better recruits, and won more games, and had better attendance, and gotten more attention sooner that we needed an upgrade to the ARC, and taken more seriously by the MVC search committee last year?  Again, you can answer that for yourself.   

...

Pretty much sums that up in a nutshell

So if was a lateral move, why would you be clapping wh? What would it matter if we didn't join the Horizon or not in 2001 as opposed to 2007?

Seriously?

[a3uge]

Still waiting for someone to provide a legitimate route Valpo could have gone in the past or now that would be an upgrade over the HL.

Who knows because that's based on things that never happened...

It's like saying where would I have ended up as a basketball player if I grew 6" taller. Valpo didn't do anything to increase their status, and therefore never gained any new opportunities. They landed in the Horizon League, which is some improvement over the Mid Con, but mostly it was a lateral move with less travel. It doesn't happen often, but there are plenty of teams who joined bigger conferences such as the A10, MVC, and Big East all from the Horizon League, and not just Butler!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League

Let me see if I can address your question, at least indirectly.  It's common knowledge (confirmed by BigD WSU) that Valpo declined an invitation to join the HL in 2001, after which the league invited YSU.  Why would we decline the very thing we jumped at 7 years later?  Could it have had anything to do with the fact that our former AD and the then Mid Con Conference Commissioner are father/son?  You can answer that for yourself.  In any event, instead of accepting a promotion to a higher rated, higher profile conference only 3 years after our Sweet-16 run, we inexplicably and inexcusably continued to flounder in the wretched Mid Con for another 7 freaking years! 7 more years Homer Drew was left to struggle to try to recruit quality players to play in a no-name league against no-name opponents in far distant lands, while the success of '98 became increasingly more distant. 

Finally, our current AD had the good sense to make the move, and our program continues on the upswing as a result.  So what did we lose by waiting 7 years?  We completely squandered all the publicity and good will we received in the aftermath of our highly publicized cinderella story.  Just threw it away because the powers that were either didn't have enough common sense to realize what they had, or they were more concerned with self interest over what was clearly in the best interest of the university.

So, is it unreasonable to think that had we made the move to the HL 7 years before we did that we could have landed better recruits, and won more games, and had better attendance, and gotten more attention sooner that we needed an upgrade to the ARC, and taken more seriously by the MVC search committee last year?  Again, you can answer that for yourself.   

...

Pretty much sums that up in a nutshell

So if was a lateral move, why would you be clapping wh? What would it matter if we didn't join the Horizon or not in 2001 as opposed to 2007?

Seriously?

So its a lateral move but its not and we should all be disappointed in being in the Horizon League, got it.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[oklahomamick]

It's simple.  Might be considered lateral as of now, but prior and at the time of the change, it was a step up.    shocker, right?   

[a3uge]

It's simple.  Might be considered lateral as of now, but prior and at the time of the change, it was a step up.    shocker, right?   

So 1998 MidCon = 2014 Horizon League?

In 1998 we went 23-9. We tied for the regular season title in the MidCon. We won the conference tourney. What did we end up with? A 15 seed. Can you even imagine winning the regular season and the conference tourney in the 2014 Horizon League and winding up a 15 seed? Can you imagine the top team of the Horizon being a 125 RPI, despite having single digit losses? Even after Butler left, we've had MULTIPLE teams in the top 50 RPI. In 2000 the highest RPI team was Valpo... at 193. ONE NINETY THREE! How can you even begin to say that the 1997-2001 MidCon is the same as what we have now? The 1997-2007 MidCon/Summit league finished 20+ in RPI standings every year! Even since Butler left, we've been a top 13 RPI league. To discount the entire league based off of Green Bay not winning the conference tournament is absolutely absurd.

I don't know how anyone could honestly believe that we have the same disadvantages in recruiting now that we did at any point in the Mid Con. I don't know how anyone could honestly believe we have don't have a better opportunity to be successful than when we were in the Mid Con where winning the regular season still meant 15-16 seed. When we won the Mid Con 4 times after the Sweet 16 run, our average seed was a 15. If we won the Horizon 3 more times in the next 5 years, do you think our average seed would be a 15?

[vu72]

It's simple.  Might be considered lateral as of now, but prior and at the time of the change, it was a step up.    shocker, right?   

So 1998 MidCon = 2014 Horizon League?

In 1998 we went 23-9. We tied for the regular season title in the MidCon. We won the conference tourney. What did we end up with? A 15 seed. Can you even imagine winning the regular season and the conference tourney in the 2014 Horizon League and winding up a 15 seed? Can you imagine the top team of the Horizon being a 125 RPI, despite having single digit losses? Even after Butler left, we've had MULTIPLE teams in the top 50 RPI. In 2000 the highest RPI team was Valpo... at 193. ONE NINETY THREE! How can you even begin to say that the 1997-2001 MidCon is the same as what we have now? The 1997-2007 MidCon/Summit league finished 20+ in RPI standings every year! Even since Butler left, we've been a top 13 RPI league. To discount the entire league based off of Green Bay not winning the conference tournament is absolutely absurd.

I don't know how anyone could honestly believe that we have the same disadvantages in recruiting now that we did at any point in the Mid Con. I don't know how anyone could honestly believe we have don't have a better opportunity to be successful than when we were in the Mid Con where winning the regular season still meant 15-16 seed. When we won the Mid Con 4 times after the Sweet 16 run, our average seed was a 15. If we won the Horizon 3 more times in the next 5 years, do you think our average seed would be a 15?

Well said indeed!!   

[oklahomamick]

The gap between the HL and SL is closer now than when it was when we changed. 

[valpotx]

Only in regards to the fact that the top team (NDSU) had an RPI of 33.  Just about everyone else has the same distribution that the SL always had before.  Playing against a team with a 33 RPI twice in one season, helped that A LOT

[vu72]

I would think that next season will resolve this even more. NDSU losing five starters while several teams in the Horizon should be very good. (CSU, GB, Valpo, Milwaukee)  Should be a down year for WSU but they didn't have a very good rpi last year.

[ARCInsider]

Do we have any real proof that Valpo was actually invited to the HL in 2001?

[Big D]

Do we have any real proof that Valpo was actually invited to the HL in 2001?

I have stated that Valpo was invited to the HL in the past.  Wright State's AD was the head of the HL expansion committee at that time and I had many conversations with him about who the HL was targeting.  If you do not want to believe me that is fine but take a step back and look at things logically.  The HL had 3 private schools back then and they wanted the next addition to be another private school.  The public schools at that time didn't really care.  They just wanted the best addition to the conference.  We had to add a team at that time to keep one of our automatic NCAA bids for one of our sports.  I honestly don't remember which sport it was it has been too many years.  The majority of the HL wanted to add Valpo.  Your AD was against the move because of his family relationship to the SL commish.  That is why you turned down the invite and we were stuck adding YSU.  Like I said earlier, using basic logic, can you think of one single reason why anyone in the HL would have preferred to add YSU over Valpo.  Valpo had basketball success.  You were a private school and you were located in the heart o the HL.  YSU offered nothing but the ability to keep that automatic bid.   Why would the HL decide to pick YSU over Valpo?  The truth is we didn't.  Valpo turned us down.

[usc4valpo]

Shaka Smart turned down the Marquette job.  Don't get nervous.

[usc4valpo]

D - thank youfor this analysis.  Valpo was nepotism running amok, that is pretty obvious.

[ARCInsider]

Got it.  Big D confirmed it.  Who needs a single sniff of this from any kind of local or national media outlet if Big D confirmed it?

[justducky]

Got it.  Big D confirmed it.  Who needs a single sniff of this from any kind of local or national media outlet if Big D confirmed it?

Since there was and is no value for the HL then or now to make public an expression of interest that was rejected, I would think this type of confirmation is as good as we may ever get.  In retrospect the decision that VU made looks much worse now than it would have then, but it was still a mistake.

[usc4valpo]

Let's be clear - Bill Steinbrecher was one of the founders of the Mid-Con, and his son Jon was the commish.  In 1999 to 2001, the Mid-Con as a whole was a bunch of rag tag teams in deperate need of joining a conference.  The Valpo hoop stock was getting high, and from several sources the Horizon league invited them to join.  Valpo said no to the offer. 

[crusaderjoe]

Whether or not VU turned down the HL is not as critical as the absolute lack of urgency in maintaining facility upgrades, and particularly those for its flagship athletic program.  What it has done to its basketball program by not providing it with a suitable collegiate venue is criminal. 

Again, IMO, from a conference affiliation standpoint, the move to the HL put Valpo in a position that it was before, or slightly above where it was before in 1994 as far as conference relationships are concerned.  The old Mid-Con was a multiple bid league.  So too was the HL. Whether we would have joined the HL in 2001 or later is of no consequence in this respect because we would have already still been charter members of the Mid-Con with Cleveland State, UIC, and UWGB, and former conference mates with Wright State, Milwaukee, Youngstown and Butler.  The only two schools that shared non-conference history with VU was LUC and UD.  As a result, the only thing that changed in a move to the HL from a conference relationship standpoint for VU was that for the first time at the D-I level, Valpo had achieved membership in a conference that had a generally balanced public and private mix.  But that is it--nothing more or less.

[StlVUFan]

It had been only a few years before that 5 of the schools in the Mid-Con had left Valpo behind and jumped to the MCCities after promising to stay in the Mid-Con at one of it's administration meetings. Do you jump back into the lions den?

THANK YOU!

Look, I was never terribly impressed with Bill Steinbrecher the few times I talked to him, but he was hardly the pariah some make him out to be either.  And I am certainly not accepting on face value what BigDWSU says about 2001 either (h/t IndyValpo on that one).  If I'm at the helm when a whole bunch of schools depart under the cloak of darkness and then they come back 7 years later and invite me to join them, I'll be darned if I'm jumping at the invitation.

The passage of time is the best explanation for Valpo accepting in 2007 what they declined in 2001, along with the change of administrations.  Mark L. has no reason to hold a grudge for something that didn't happen on his watch, plus I get the feeling some of the other players in the 1994 ambush had also moved on to retirement or other posts.

The only other point of view I remember was that of RLH who used to always say that it was a difficult decision between being a big fish in a little pond and being a little fish in a big pond.  It's not like it was a simple decision to make.

[StlVUFan]

By the way, both #ShakaWatch and the time line of @ShakaWatch have been LOLOLOLOLOL all week long.  I don't know how mature it is, but I've loved every minute of it.

I did not realize @PantherU got sucked into it, however.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I did not realize @PantherU got sucked into it, however.

he may not really have...i think those are fabricated tweets.

hilarious, but fabricated nonetheless.

...at least, i hope so.

like this:

[vu72]

I did not realize @PantherU got sucked into it, however.

he may not really have...i think those are fabricated tweets.

hilarious, but fabricated nonetheless.

...at least, i hope so.

like this:

Nicely done Apostle.  Hilarious!!   

[StlVUFan]

he may not really have...i think those are fabricated tweets.

I figured all but the first one mentioned were fabricated, but I guess I thought the first one was real.

lol

[bbtds]

I have to agree that the 1994 move by GB, Milw, UIC, CSU, Northern Illinois and WSU was one of the most egregious sins ever committed by some schools to another school in the history of college athletics. Six universities lied to the face of Jon Steinbrecher during a conference meeting saying they were going to stay with the Mid-Con while all six were plotting to leave the conference. BigDWSU will never admit something like that. It greatly would have effected any decision about conferences that Valpo and Bill Steinbrecher had to make.

If you talk to the former AD's at Youngstown State, Eastern Illinois and Western Illinois in private they would admit that is what happened. I'm not sure that those AD's and presidents would have voted to join the defection if they had also been invited.

[Big D]

I have to agree that the 1994 move by GB, Milw, UIC, CSU, Northern Illinois and WSU was one of the most egregious sins ever committed by some schools to another school in the history of college athletics. Six universities lied to the face of Jon Steinbrecher during a conference meeting saying they were going to stay with the Mid-Con while all six were plotting to leave the conference. BigDWSU will never admit something like that. It greatly would have effected any decision about conferences that Valpo and Bill Steinbrecher had to make.

Valpo was asked to join the HL with the rest of us and Bill Steinbrecher turned us down then.  Just like he turned down the HL in 2001.  You might have been told differently by him, but what else is he going to tell you.  The truth wouldn't exactly have sounded the best for him--hey guys I decided to turn down an invite to join a much better conference with lower travel costs because my son is the commish of our current conference and I am more concerned about my family than what is in Valpo's best interest.  I'm sure it was much easier to tell everyone that Valpo was screwed over by all of the schools that left the SL in 1994.  I don't care if you want to believe me or not, but take a step back and look at the situation again logically.  Your AD had a vested interest in staying in the SL.  If GB, UWM, UIC, CSU, and WSU all committed such an egregious sin against Valpo in 1994 as you suggest, it doesn't make any sense for Valpo to turn around and join all of us in the HL a decade later?  If your wife cheats on you and leaves you for another man, you don't turn around a decade later and move in with the 2 of them.  It doesn't make sense and I think you know it.