VU Rep

[78crusader]

The season for high school seniors to be making their college choices is winding down. Three times in the last month I have heard proud parents tell me their kids were considering Notre Dame or St. Olaf; Northwestern or Calvin; and, finally, Georgetown or Butler.

Is it just me, or does VU not enjoy the same sort of reputation as the smaller schools listed above?  St. Olaf I can understand, since it is located a lot closer to where I live than VU.  But I never seem to hear that a kid is considering, for instance, Northwestern or Valparaiso.  Or, for that matter, St. Olaf or Valparaiso. 

I overheard President Harre once say that he thought the Board of Directors he was dealing with at the time had an inferiority complex about VU.  I'm wondering: is this true of me?  Of most of those who have attended VU?  Has this attitude somehow seeped into the general public, where we are considered OK, but not a top notch private school? 

I know that when the first US News College Ranking came out in 1988, VU was rated #1 -- and the only criteria at that time was our academic reputation.  I think that reputation has taken a hit over the years, since in our category in the US News we have fallen from #1 to I think #6 last year.  That is not a good trend.  I have yet to hear President Heckler address this.  He should. 

Help me out with this.  Perhaps those who live in Indiana/Illinois have a different take on the VU reputation.  When I was in school in 74-78, our reputation was that it was an expensive place to attend.  And that we had a dedicated, top notch faculty.

Paul

[vu72]

Hard to say really.  The facts show that the number of applications is way up and the quality of students entering is at an all time high, gpa and SAT score wise.

Having done many college fairs for Valpo I can tell you that there is plenty of interest in Valpo even as far away as Texas.  Some students who actually research schools who will be a good fit for their area of study will find Valpo very highly ranked.  Other kids simply decide based on perhaps where their friends are going or if its close to home.

Valpo has certain majors where they are very highly ranked such as meteorology or engineering. St. Olaf may have a nursing PROGRAM or DEPARTMENT, but not a nursing COLLEGE. The same can be said for Business and Engineering.  St. Olaf  shares nursing instructors with Gustavus while Valpo has a dedicated full time staff.  If you were at St. Olaf and wanted an engineering degree, you would have to transfer to the University of Minnesota half way through your education as St. Olaf can't give out engineering degrees. Other small private schools may offer a business minor with an economics degree, but not a degree in accounting or finance which so many employers seek.

I've often said that a kid can't want to come to Valpo if he has never heard of it.  I'm convinced President Heckler and his pretty much entirely new team has recognized this and is working on it.  With our sports teams getting national exposure, it helps a lot versus a St. Olaf or Calvin.

[VULB#62]

Could be that we are comparing different fruit here as well.  My primary frame of reference is New England, but certain themes may apply universally. 

#   The typical DIII Liberal Arts colleges like Williams, Middlebury, Colby, DePauw, St. Olaf, Gettysburg, or Swarthmore attract a certain demographic. 
Those kids will focus there and exclude others and reach for the Ivies. VU doesn't fit there.

#   Georgetown is well respected as a Catholic/Jesuit national university (like ND and BC) with very high admission standards.  Except for admission standards, VU doesn't fit there either (along with a bunch of Catholic universities)

#   Northwestern is big-time private and has a national rep like Stanford, USC, Duke, WF and Vandy.  No fit for VU there as well.

IMO, VU is a 'tweener' like Butler.  But Butler has two MBB final appearances and a mascot that gets USAToday national coverage when it shows up in Madison Square Garden.  VU is not there YET.

Part of the issue may be that Lutheranism is highly fragmented and precludes the emergence of a single major 'Lutheran' national university (analogous to a Brigham Young [Mormon] or Baylor [Baptist]).  On the other hand we do quite well recognition-wise vs. schools like Liberty or ORU.

[crusaderjoe]

Here's my $0.02.  It has been said that athletics are the front porch of a university from an exposure standpoint.

You mentioned Northwestern, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Butler and Valparaiso at the Division I level.  All are private.  More importantly, which one of the five has the lousiest athletic facilities? Which one plays in a conference that has the least amount of media exposure comparatively?

Think about that for a moment.

[a3uge]

Here's my $0.02.  It has been said that athletics are the front porch of a university from an exposure standpoint.

You mentioned Northwestern, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Butler and Valparaiso at the Division I level.  All are private.  More importantly, which one of the five has the lousiest athletic facilities? Which one plays in a conference that has the least amount of media exposure comparatively?

Think about that for a moment.

Err I think decent athletic facilities is more of endowment/enrollment along with geography. It's not like Valpo will turn into Georgetown if they build an arena the size of the Verizon Center, and it's not like Georgetown/Notre Dame/Northwestern are well known because of athletics. It's not like Valpo is going to be able to dish $100 million into a new arena with its limitations in enrollment, endowment and geography. All of these schools sans Butler had huge enrollments and national prominence way before athletics were even around.

While decent athletics can gain a school huge exposure, thinking Valpo will ever turn into a school like Northwestern, Georgetown, or Notre Dame from athletics is silly.

And I think the 'facilities' argument gets overstated a little bit. There's only been a handful of private schools that have moved to new arenas in the past 10 years - Campbell, Samford, Monmouth, Quinnipiac, and LIU - yup, 'nuff said, SLU - after a huge donation from a guy that was bidding for a $550 million NBA franchise, and Evansville - which they didn't pay any construction costs for. In order for Valpo to build an arena with a capacity of 5,000+, they'll need $50 million minimum. Towson's 5,200 seat arena cost $62 million (of which $57 million was public funding through state bonds). It's impractical to think Valpo will ever privately fund an arena for $50+ million, and I don't think there's a donor willing to dish out $15 million+ for one. Furthermore, even if Valpo did manage to build a new arena, there's little evidence to suggest that it will have a significant impact on team performance - the best arena in the HL is the Resch Center, and UWGB hasn't made the tourney since it was built. If you scroll up and down the list of arenas in college basketball, it's hard to find a significant cause and effect between new facility and performance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_basketball_arenas).

But I do think the University would benefit from a new field house for all students - this will be cheaper than a state-of-the-art basketball arena and doesn't have to include seats. Then they could renovate the ARC to remove the track, fix the seats, build out the concourse, etc. I just don't think it's practical to build a completely new arena (not that you were necessarily advocating that).

[crusaderjoe]

That's all fine and good, but we're not talking about the correlation between new construction and athletic performance.  What '78 asked was why students are not considering VU relative to the schools that he mentioned.  Of all of the D-I schools, VU is the weakest as far as athletic media outreach and the resulting footprint from that outreach.   That is partly the answer to his question.

Notre Dame is not well known because of its athletics?  Huh? 

Georgetown?  I had no idea what a "hoya" was until they lost in the title game to UNC in the early '80s.  They are not well known for basketball?

You allude in your post that it is impractical for a school like VU to spend money on athletics to expand its university's media footprint but yet there are schools out there that are spending millions of dollars to reclassify from FCS to FBS--even if it means that their football and athletic departments might operate at a loss.   Those that do operate at a loss or at a push at the FBS level still have no intention of ever moving down to FCS to save money. Why?  Because of the level of the exposure that comes with that status, that's why.  Hell, Georgia Southern has six, six FCS NCAA National Titles, and they are still seeking greater media coverage relative to athletics:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/22014717/eyeing-more-exposure-fcs-power-georgia-southern-ready-for-fbs-leap

That's a power move if I ever saw one.

Am I suggesting that VU should build a $50 M dollar facility?  No.  Am I suggesting that VU will ever turn into a Notre Dame, Northwestern or Georgetown?  Nope.  But at the same time, let's be crystal clear.  Athletics are absolutely important.

Many here chastised the MVC for selecting Loyola--except that Loyola spent (or is in the process of spending) something like $100M on athletic and academic upgrades.  They've revamped their basketball arena twice in 20 years.  And Valpo's contribution to its flagship sport?  A new floor and a new video board. 

I understand the point you are trying to make.  I'm sure you get my point too.

[VULB#62]

Joe -- I read the article about GSU football going FBS and one paragraph struck me:

Spoken by the GSU president:

"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, who was a vice-chancellor at LSU before he become the Georgia Southern president. "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it. Our goal is to move Georgia Southern from a regional to a national brand. This (moving to the Sun Belt) gives us a chance to do that. This gives us a chance to market our university on a national platform."

"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, ......... "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it."  I think the same could be said for middle of the road mid-majors. In that respect, VU needs to get to the Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler (before they imploded) level of recognition to be thought of as a national university (had our chance, like FGCU, when we made the sweet 16, but failed to act - FGCU acted.).   

Speaking of the Zags (total enrollment -- 7,691, Undergrads -- 4,896), I scraped this from their website: "Gonzaga Basketball shot over to the newly built, $25 million, 148,000 ft2 McCarthey Athletic Center. Completed in November 2004, the McCarthey Athletic Center has a seating capacity of 6,000 for basketball games. All seats are individual and have arm and backrests."  A rennovated ARC could be like that at a portion of the cost.     

[78crusader]

What I was trying to figure out is why, for instance, kids apply to Northwestern and St. Olaf, rather than Northwestern and Valparaiso.  Or Georgetown and Butler, instead of Georgetown and Valparaiso.  The parents and their child, at least in these two instances, think St. Olaf or Butler are comparable in some important ways to Northwestern and Georgetown.  Maybe there are instances of a kid narrowing down his choices to, for example, Northwestern and VU, or Georgetown and VU, but I get the (unscientific, non-proven) feeling that just isn't the case.  Why is that?  I think in most cases it has zero to do with athletics.  Assuming that to be true, in cases where kids are considering schools such as St. Olaf, Northwestern, etc., why isn't VU on their list?

Paul

[a3uge]

"I love the FCS and I love that level of competitive sports," said Keel, ......... "But the fact is that ESPN doesn't love it."  I think the same could be said for middle of the road mid-majors. In that respect, VU needs to get to the Wichita State, Gonzaga, Butler (before they imploded) level of recognition to be thought of as a national university (had our chance, like FGCU, when we made the sweet 16, but failed to act - FGCU acted.).   

Speaking of the Zags (total enrollment -- 7,691, Undergrads -- 4,896), I scraped this from their website: "Gonzaga Basketball shot over to the newly built, $25 million, 148,000 ft2 McCarthey Athletic Center. Completed in November 2004, the McCarthey Athletic Center has a seating capacity of 6,000 for basketball games. All seats are individual and have arm and backrests."  A rennovated ARC could be like that at a portion of the cost.     

What did FGCU do after their Sweet 16 run? Lose their coach?

Also, Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.

[Vale O. Paradise]

Here are links to the annual reports reports from the following schools: (Note: The most current Valpo annual report I could find is from 2010. Of the four schools listed above, it is the only one not to have it publicly available on their website. I found it on a third-party site).

Northwestern: goo.gl/fUTX1j
Notre Dame: goo.gl/FdcdbS
St Olaf: goo.gl/uMPCxw
Valpo: goo.gl/9LHSE6

The statistics therein explain a lot. I can offer some thoughts, and I'm sure others can glean even more from the reports.

Northwestern and Notre Dame are, of course, tier-one schools when it comes to endowments. Both are in the top 15 in the county. That alone separates them. But looking at their sources of revenues beyond endowment illustrate that a ton of money come from copyrights and trademarks they hold. Northwestern, especially, does a ton of medical research. Patents churn out more than athletics, hands down. Both have top law schools and business schools, and Northwestern also has a great medical school. Those elite graduate-level programs attract high-performing high school students and helpful alumni.

St Olaf is closer in size and resources. However, St Olaf has a lot to offer. Despite having fewer students (about 3,200), St Olaf's endowment is twice that of Valpo ($379M to $177M). It's admission rate (about 50%) is much lower than Valpo's (75%). The average ACT of incoming freshmen (29) is significantly higher than Valpo's (26).

Last, St Olaf is also classified in the liberal arts colleges category in most books/websites that help guide people through college options. Valpo is in the category "Master's level university". I suspect that people who want a classic humanities-based, liberal arts experience look to colleges that focus exclusively on that, while those who want a "true" university look at bigger, glossier universities. If you live outside the Ill-Ind-Mi or Lutheran orbits, Valpo has many characteristics that leave it likely to fall between the cracks unless you hear about VU from someone you know and trust.

[VULB#62]

Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.

Yeah, I agree.  It could just be a order of magnitude thing.  Anything at this point would be an improvement.  And it is a lot easier to do that when you have a track record like the Zags.  So we have to get back to the dance more often. Chicken and egg thing.

[a3uge]

Gonzaga's $25 million arena is a bit misleading. $25 million 10 years ago is $31.2 in today's money. Also, construction costs are a bit higher today than 10 years ago... the going rate for a 6,000 seat arena is about $40 million (see Trojan Arena). Furthermore, Gonzaga's arena cost was limited by large donations and pre-sold season tickets. We're at a disadvantage there as well. Gonzaga basketball was coming off of 6 straight appearances with an Elite 8 and 3 Sweet 16s. We're going to need to be successful first before being able to self-finance a $30 million arena. It's just something that isn't practical.

Yeah, I agree.  It could just be a order of magnitude thing.  Anything at this point would be an improvement.  And it is a lot easier to do that when you have a track record like the Zags.  So we have to get back to the dance more often. Chicken and egg thing.

Chicken and egg indeed. Butler didn't spend a lot more on athletics to get decent, the got decent and were able to spend a lot more on athletics. This kind of snowballs, but it takes a combination of winning and an investment in athletics.

We actually are in the top 3 in athletic spending in the HL. I am more considered with our inability to make strategic long term plans than anything. A lot of private schools have a decent field house or athletics center for students - Carthage College just built a $13 million field house. If we get a big donor to build something that all students can enjoy, it'll benefit the campus life greatly - students would love a good place to work out. The ARC isn't really appealing to prospective students and the need to retract the bleachers make it impossible to set it up as a decent basketball arena.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

FGCU acted.

....eeee...not really.  still stuck.  they're doing a pretty good valpo impression, actually without the return trip to the dance.

I am more considered with our inability to make strategic long term plans than anything.

DING
DING DING
DING DING DING

Seriously--Cartilage can build an 8 figure field house?  I weep for our future.

[valpotx]

I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here.  I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad.  It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts .  Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.

[vu72]

I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here.  I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad.  It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts .  Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.

Congrats!!  Hope all went well.  So, can you tell if he is left handed yet??   

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here.  I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad.  It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts .  Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.

Congrats!!  Hope all went well.  So, can you tell if he is left handed yet??   

right?!??  WHY DID YOU NOT LIKE START A THREAD?  this is big news!  congratulations!!!

[bbtds]

Seriously--Cartilage can build an 8 figure field house?

I cringe when I think of figure 8 cartilage. But there actually is such a thing.

[valpotx]

I hear from people knowing Valpo just about every day down here.  I was wearing a Valpo baseball polo shirt in the hospital this past weekend when my son was born, and one of the L&D nurses mentioned that her daughter is at Purdue, and recently married a Valpo grad.  It is pretty common for me to run into someone that knows our school whenever I wear these types of shirts .  Nothing bad to say about St. Olaf, as both of my parents received their undergraduate degree from that school.

Congrats!!  Hope all went well.  So, can you tell if he is left handed yet??   

right?!??  WHY DID YOU NOT LIKE START A THREAD?  this is big news!  congratulations!!!

No idea, but hopeful that he takes after me in that area!  Thanks for the well wishes

[FWalum]

I know that when the first US News College Ranking came out in 1988, VU was rated #1 -- and the only criteria at that time was our academic reputation.  I think that reputation has taken a hit over the years, since in our category in the US News we have fallen from #1 to I think #6 last year.  That is not a good trend.  I have yet to hear President Heckler address this.  He should.

Forget about athletic facilities and all the other ancillary stuff, the real issue IMO is the academic reputation.  Back in the early 90's when we were #1 it was a BIG deal, my friends at Evansville and relatives who went to Butler all lamented the fact that VU was rated higher than they were.  Certainly VU has gotten much better in academic related facilities since that time, our school is certainly more broadly recognized athletically.  What has changed for the worse? I know that some of the US News criteria has fluctuated, but how have we gone from 1st to 6th?  At CLHS we do see a lot more interest in places like Wheaton, Calvin, St Olaf, Carleton and Hope than in the past.  Calvin in particular has been much more aggressive in recruiting our school.  I will admit that I am not a big fan of "growing" VU to the 6K student level.  I would much rather see us become more selective and accept a lower percentage of students thus hopefully raising our academic reputation.

[setshot]

 

[valpo64]

Face it...ratings are very political, etc.  Even if we are growing our student population, the test scores of the incoming, increased numbers of students are going up as high or higher than ever.  Does it really make sense that our academic ratings should be going down?  Since when do schools like Calvin, Wheaton, etc. even compare with VU?  We offer many more programs, courses, student activities, athletics on a much larger and on a more extensive scale.  It seems like incoming frosh at times are more interested in small schools and dialed into a program that one may offer.  Years ago who even heard of the Calvins, etc. unless you lived nearby?

Remember, things are getting more competive and we continue to grow at a controlled pace.  Are some of us getting overly concerned?

[vu72]

Face it...ratings are very political, etc.  Even if we are growing our student population, the test scores of the incoming, increased numbers of students are going up as high or higher than ever.  Does it really make sense that our academic ratings should be going down?  Since when do schools like Calvin, Wheaton, etc. even compare with VU?  We offer many more programs, courses, student activities, athletics on a much larger and on a more extensive scale.  It seems like incoming frosh at times are more interested in small schools and dialed into a program that one may offer.  Years ago who even heard of the Calvins, etc. unless you lived nearby?

Remember, things are getting more competive and we continue to grow at a controlled pace.  Are some of us getting overly concerned?

Couldn't agree more.  Most of the other smaller schools mentioned really aren't our competition.  Alan Harre said our competition includes the Butlers, Miami of Ohios and and other schools with similar programs to ours.  Now, if the student in question is after a religious or specifically Lutheran college then we look even better, unless the student/parents are looking for a "Bible"/Baptist school and then we aren't going to look for good.  Versus religious schools, very few will have the professional colleges that Valpo has.  If you want to study history or philosophy or english, then we still compare very well but the other schools would have a horse in the race.

[vu72]

I suppose the quality of an education can be directly correlated to the success of its graduates.  The first part of success comes from getting a job and/or being able to get into graduate school.  This article discusses Valpo's placement rate for 2012-2013 graduates, which was 92.5%.  This continues a over 20 year string of 20% plus results.  Sounds pretty good to me.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1890989

[valpotx]

I am also a little disturbed in the downward trend of our ranking, but not overly concerned.  We were #1 in the region throughout my entire Valpo experience (maybe #2 my last year?), but #6 isn't anything to balk at.  If we continue to slide, then I will be a little more concerned, but as long as we stay in the top 5-6, it bodes well for Valpo's future.

[a3uge]

I hope Valpo is able to invest in  STEM fields a little bit more - and I'm glad they finally started. There's not a lot of Midwest schools that are private and offer top notch Engineering programs. I can't imagine prospective students are impressed with seeing Windows XP installed on computers in the Math labs, and the displeasing and dumpy feeling of Gellerson/Niels can't be good for science students who know their lives will be consumed with school for 4 years.