HL expansion and conference challenge

[wh]

Picked this up from the WSU board -

Waters speaks out about HL expansion and and the possibility of a "conference challenge" in the future:

HL expansion:  As for HL expansion, Waters said the league will likely add another school after this season. The HL currently stands at nine teams.

"They are going to do it this year," Waters said about Horizon League expansion. "Definitely one."

The HL could add up to three schools in the future.

Schools that have been rumored as possibilities include: Belmont, Murray State, Northern Kentucky, IUPUI, IPFW and Lipscomb.

HL-WCC Challenge?: Waters said HL coaches have discussed the possibility about taking part in a "conference challenge" as early as next season. Possibilities could be with the West Coast Conference or the Colonial.

"We really want to do that,"Waters said about the HL taking part in a conference challenge. "We got to find a way to play the WCC next year. I will promote this [at our next coaches meetings]. That is something that can help our league."

http://clevelandstatehoops.blogspot.com/2015/01/csu-basketball-notebook-cleveland-state.html

[valpotx]

Belmont is obviously the most likely given their inclusion in men's soccer, and scheduling our conference teams in other sports as part of that deal.  It would be fantastic to see Belmont and Murray State, as that could lead to being a multiple bid league.

[crusaderjoe]

I'd put my money on Northern Kentucky, IMO. As with Oakland, it's the safe, ground ball up the middle plain vanilla move. They are a geographical oddity in the Atlantic Sun and a good travel partner location wise for Wright State.  Plus, it creeps the HL footprint south towards Tennessee for future potential expansion.  Murray has to worry about placing their football somewhere if they move.

What would be really shocking is if the HL went after UAB outright to potentially lure Belmont and Murray at a later date. Now that would be really proactive, but I can't see that happening.  Although with this expansion stuff you never know what will happen.  I mean I suppose it is possible that EKU might somehow get a call up to FBS and leave the OVC because of UAB's shuttering of its football program, which could also affect HL expansion too.

[a3uge]

UAB is in Alabama. No.

And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.

IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.

This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU. For whatever reason, Murray State and Belmont have been happy in the OVC, and NKU is geographically stretched from some of the ASUN schools. So I predict we settle with NKU. They have a nice arena and spend a bunch on athletics. Usually that translates to success down the road.

[Kyle321n]

I love the idea of a conference challenge and I would like to see it expend to more than the one game that most conferences do. I'd love to see each school from their conference schedule 4 games against schools in our conference. You could even rotate it so you play the entire conference over a 3 year period. 4 games would allow you to split it so you have 2 home games and 2 road games. If you did a 5 year contract to do this with another 10 team league you'd have a home game against every team once the contract runs out. The scheduling makes so much sense that it will never happen.

I'd really like a match up against the CAA. I realize the WCC would be a step up in competition for us, it's just so far away from all of our schools that the travel would be reminiscent of our Mid-Con days. If the CAA isn't up for getting beat every season by us then the MAC, MVC or Ivy would be fun to play. I think I'd pick the Ivys to play first just because the legacy of those schools is outstanding and while they aren't known as basketball powerhouses, they've improved the last 4 or 5 years.

[covufan]

UAB is in Alabama. No.And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU.

I tend to agree.  Of these three, who is the most likely to say yes?  I like Belmont this summer, with Murray State and NKU to follow.

I think we should continue to schedule IPFW and IUPUI.  I like the conference challenge.

[a3uge]

UAB is in Alabama. No.And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.IPFW and IUPUI would be great geographically, but, no.This leaves us with 3 obvious choices. Murray State, Belmont, and NKU.

I tend to agree.  Of these three, who is the most likely to say yes?  I like Belmont this summer, with Murray State and NKU to follow.

I think we should continue to schedule IPFW and IUPUI.  I like the conference challenge.

We should be playing IUPUI and IPFW every year. Tons of alumni in both areas, and we play a bunch of 200-300 RPI teams anyways.

I don't see Belmont leaving first because they still probably don't want to pay for a buyout to switch a conference they recently joined. I think Murray State would be more likely, but I think both will stay put in the OVC for some time.

[VULB#62]

Love Belmont Private!!!!  NKU has appeal as well.  FCS Football will drive Murray and EKU.  However, one OVC team that does not have FB issues is Morehead State -- they are already in the PFL.  We (VU) already have a relationship.  The MBB program is not a front runner at this point, but they are 3rd in the OVC East right now.  They have 15 sports (including Baseball, Tex) but no MSO   .   What if they were approached conditionally if they add men's soccer? Are they even a dark horse possibility for further discussion???

[bbtds]

However, one OVC team that does not have FB issues is Morehead State -- they are already in the PFL.  We (VU) already have a relationship.  The MBB program is not a front runner at this point, but they are 3rd in the OVC East right now.  They have 15 sports (including Baseball, Tex) but no MSO   .   What if they were approached conditionally if they add men's soccer? Are they even a dark horse possibility for further discussion???

No. Also too tied to the OVC. They have no more reason to leave the OVC then Murray St, Belmont or Eastern KY.

[Pathfinder]

UAB is in Alabama. No. And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.

On UAB, you gotta be thinking big, and definitely adding more south. That would be a big move and would need to be carefully considered, but without dawdling.


Lipscomb actually means Belmont almost for sure--Lipscomb is talked about mainly as a way to convince Belmont to join, giving them a southern travel partner. I don't think we'd see Lipscomb without Belmont, and we're more likely to see Belmont with Lipscomb. Lipscomb is Belmont's historic rival, too.

[a3uge]

UAB is in Alabama. No. And I think Libscom means no Belmont. So no.

On UAB, you gotta be thinking big, and definitely adding more south. That would be a big move and would need to be carefully considered, but without dawdling.


Lipscomb actually means Belmont almost for sure--Lipscomb is talked about mainly as a way to convince Belmont to join, giving them a southern travel partner. I don't think we'd see Lipscomb without Belmont, and we're more likely to see Belmont with Lipscomb. Lipscomb is Belmont's historic rival, too.

Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.

Again, UAB is in Alabama. That's a nightmare for every sport and every team. And UAB just cut their football team, they're not going to want to join a conference where they have to fly the volleyball team to Green Bay every year.

[oklahomamick]

I would love to add two privates such as Belmont and lipscomb.  And while we are it add a private from Pittsburgh such as Robert Morris or Duquesne.  That would give the HL 12, 5 being private and 7 large commuter state schools.   Robert Morris is the better basketball program.  Both have soccer.  Either one would be a good travel partner for ysu.  The downer is that neither has baseball. 

[usc4valpo]

Belmont, Robert Morris and NJIT

[VULB#62]

NJIT 

[Pathfinder]

Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.

That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.

[VU75]

Lipscomb and Belmont are  long time rivals going back to their NAIA years.  They still play twice a year even though they are not in the same conference.

[usc4valpo]

Why not, NJIT provides academia and they can beat a Big 10 team.  In reality, Belmont would be great for the Horizon conference.

[wh]

Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.

That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.

I can't imagine a worse "addition" to the conference than Lipscomb.  They are well on their way to their 4th consecutive losing season, while playing in one of the worst low major conferences in D-1 basketball.  Their RPI over the same 4 years has been 272, 211, 242 and 218.  Their average home attendance last year was 1740, which would place them dead last in the HL.  Whatever the benefit of adding Belmont would be completely negated by adding another bottom feeder (we have enough of those now). 

Then there are the fans around the league that want to add Northern Kentucky.  Who's Northern Kentucky?  They're a totally unproven nobody with a nice basketball facility.  Oh, but wait, they would make a good traveling partner for Wright State. What the heck is that about?  That's like giving someone a job because they fit the uniform. There are only 2 programs in that area that are worth any consideration, and that's Belmont and Murray State.  That's it - period.  Even then, I'm not convinced that they're going to raise the profile of the league.  Consider this - Wright State already beat Belmont twice this year and Valpo absolutely destroyed Murray State.  One of the 2 of them will undoubtedly end up representing the OVC in the tournament, but what does that say other than they're the 2 best teams in a terrible low major conference. 

The goal should never be about adding programs for the sake of adding programs.  The goal should always be about elevating the profile of the Horizon League.  We might want to begin with the 9 current members taking a serious look at all the shabby coaching and recruiting that permeates this league, and doing something about it.  If we did that, we might be surprised at how many programs would be knocking on our door to get in, instead of settling for teams way out of our footprint, hoping they'll do for us what we inexplicably seem to be incapable of doing for ourselves.

By the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced.  That would be a good place to start. 

[valpotx]

Remember when the addition of Valpo was thought of as 'moronic' by a decent amount of HL fans?   Considering that we have placed at least 4th in every season but one (when we had some key transfers out), I would have to say that those fans are eating their words.

[oklahomamick]

All this expansion talk.  What if we go the other direction and kick ysu out and go with 8?  Except Belmont, no other schools increase the value of the HL.  So are we trying to add 2-3 to make travel easier?  If that's the case, Go to 8 and have travel partners. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

interesting...addition by subtraction.  it worked with josh smith, anyway.

how would one even go about that, though?

[oklahomamick]

The same way chicago st. Was dismissed or asked to leave the mid-con?  I don't know and highly doubt if it happens.  Just an idea because it appears we want to add not quality but for travel partners.  Even though we should remember potential quality when making these choices.   If we eliminate ysu does it accomplish the same as adding N. Kentucky? 


We go 8 but each school makes a commitment for better coaching, better recruits, scheduling bylaws an increase budget and spending. 

[wh]

Yep, expanding to 12 teams so we can lure 1 team that we actually want is completely ignorant. Instead of 9 teams competing for 1 tournament slot it'll be 12. We'll split shares 12 ways instead of 9. Travel expenses and time away from the classroom will be much higher for several currant programs. And then, what if Belmont becomes disenchanted with not going to the tournament because they no longer have a cake walk and gets tired of all their extra travel and decides to return to the OVC? 

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[talksalot]

If the consideration is travel partner for Wright State, NKY makes sense...  68 miles apart; they do have Baseball (14-37, Sagarin #270-Valpo was #211), Softball (5-45 last year, Golf and Soccer. 

In athletics, we began competing on the NCAA Division I level during the 2012-13 academic year as the newest member of the Atlantic Sun Conference.

The Norse advanced to Division I after winning three national championships and 22 regional titles at the NCAA Division II level. The men's soccer team was the 2010 Division II national champion. In both 2000 and 2008, the women's basketball team won the Division II national title.

Not only are we attracting talented students and faculty, but we're also recruiting a distinguished set of lecturers. Speakers to NKU in recent years have included politician Bob Dole, political strategist James Carville, journalist Bob Woodward and President George W. Bush.

Looking at the Nashville Pair...

and Lipscomb (2014 Baseball Sagarin 143)  has had some Baseball success; and they are on our 2015 schedule...Sat 2/21 at 2pm...   
They have Baseball, Golf and Soccer

and Belmont has baseball (Sagarin #195)  and they are on our 2015 Schedule, Sunday 2/22 1:00pm) , Golf and Soccer

and Murray State has Baseball (Sagarin #204) and Golf... but No Men's Soccer.  They have a 16,800 seat football stadium... average attendance last year was 4,800... they were 3-9.

[crusaderjoe]

Generally conferences have avoided 2 teams from the same market. See Oakland's struggle to get in the Horizon. Also, Lipscomb has no history of success. I'm not sure having ONE team close by for a conference game would lure Belmont in.

That's true, but in this case, I assure you, the ONLY reason Lipscomb is being considered is to be a tandem partner with Belmont. If they come in at all, Belmont does not want to come in without a southern travel partner. Lipscomb will not get an invitation unless Belmont gets one and indicates that it's acceptance is conditioned on Lipscomb or other southern travel partners. And note that unlike the Oakland situation, there is no Horizon member who would veto adding a team in its market. You are right that having only ONE close team may not be enough - Belmont would be most likely to join if accompanied by 2 other southern schools, one of which might be Lipscomb.

I can't imagine a worse "addition" to the conference than Lipscomb.  They are well on their way to their 4th consecutive losing season, while playing in one of the worst low major conferences in D-1 basketball.  Their RPI over the same 4 years has been 272, 211, 242 and 218.  Their average home attendance last year was 1740, which would place them dead last in the HL.  Whatever the benefit of adding Belmont would be completely negated by adding another bottom feeder (we have enough of those now). 

Then there are the fans around the league that want to add Northern Kentucky.  Who's Northern Kentucky?  They're a totally unproven nobody with a nice basketball facility.  Oh, but wait, they would make a good traveling partner for Wright State. What the heck is that about?  That's like giving someone a job because they fit the uniform. There are only 2 programs in that area that are worth any consideration, and that's Belmont and Murray State.  That's it - period.  Even then, I'm not convinced that they're going to raise the profile of the league.  Consider this - Wright State already beat Belmont twice this year and Valpo absolutely destroyed Murray State.  One of the 2 of them will undoubtedly end up representing the OVC in the tournament, but what does that say other than they're the 2 best teams in a terrible low major conference. 

The goal should never be about adding programs for the sake of adding programs.  The goal should always be about elevating the profile of the Horizon League.  We might want to begin with the 9 current members taking a serious look at all the shabby coaching and recruiting that permeates this league, and doing something about it. If we did that, we might be surprised at how many programs would be knocking on our door to get in, instead of settling for teams way out of our footprint, hoping they'll do for us what we inexplicably seem to be incapable of doing for ourselves.

By the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced.  That would be a good place to start.

I'm certainly not going to call you out on your prerogatives with potential conference expansion members, as you have a right to them, although you are selling a school like NKU short, IMO.  Where I disagree with you is when you mention that the HL would be settling for teams way outside of its footprint with schools like NKU, Belmont and/or Murray.  Can't agree.  As someone has already mentioned, NKU is an hour's drive south from WSU.  The University of Evansville is located farther south than NKU. 

Maybe what the HL should do is follow the way of the SWC?  You know, that now defunct conference that was so geographically compact that it ended up collapsing in the mid 90's because it was so regional. Sometimes being too conservative with a conference footprint and being too geographically compact can work to a conference's detriment, particularly at the D-I level.  Putting Kentucky or Tennessee for that matter as being outside of the footprint is being way too conservative on that point, IMO.