HL expansion and conference challenge

[bbtds]

By the way, there are at least 3 Horizon League head men's basketball coaches that absolutely should be replaced [with a better coach].  That would be a good place to start.

My choices would be surly Jerry Slocum (YSU), Howard Moore (UIC) and who else? Ray McCallum Sr (Detroit)? Rob Jeter (Milwaukee)? I say "no" on Jeter. If I was in control I would also not replace Brian Wardle (Green Bay), Gary Waters (Cleveland St), Billy Donlon (Wright St), Greg Kampe (Oakland) and, of course, Bryce Drew.

What thoughts does anyone have on which coaches to replace if you had to replace three HL coaches?

[valporun]

In terms of coaches, definitely Slocum and Moore. Jeter should have been gone because of the academic APR, but his trip to the NCAA tournament last year saved his butt. McCallum will stay a little longer, as his teams still win in the conference. Kampe gets to leave on his own terms. Waters could be gone if CSU doesn't get to the NCAA tourney, and Donlon will stay until he decides to find a better program. Wardle, I'm still not sure about him. He's a head case, but wins games with a little bit of talent. Like I say, Jeter would be my third because of the APR mess, but because they went to the NCAA tournament last year, it saved him.

In terms of expansion, doesn't Northern Kentucky still have a couple of seasons before they are full-fledged members of D-I? I mean, they are probationary members of D-I currently, correct?

[classof2014]

I would like to see the league at 10 times at some point in the future. 12 is too many. I liked the addition of Oakland, made sense. My guess is Belmont will join, makes sense they're already a part of soccer, and the OVC isn't very good. The only drawback for Belmont is that they'll be on an island with the closest school is Wright State which is just over 5 hours away, so their travel expenses will be very high, while if the stay in the OVC, they play teams from Tennessee, Kentucky, etc... Makes sense.

Honestly, I would like Valpo to join the MVC at some point but that's a completely different discussion.

[bbtds]

In terms of expansion, doesn't Northern Kentucky still have a couple of seasons before they are full-fledged members of D-I? I mean, they are probationary members of D-I currently, correct?

NKU is in the process of classifying to the NCAA Division I. During the four-year reclassification, NKU will not be eligible for Division I championships. The university ended its membership in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (GLVC) at the conclusion of the 2011–12 academic year and began playing a full Atlantic Sun conference schedule in fall 2012. Following the four years, NKU will become a full Division I member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kentucky_Norse

That means the Norse will be full fledged Div. I members as of the conclusion of the 2015-16 academic year.

[valpotx]

Great point about the Southwestern Conference being too regional, and going kaput!  I took would like to see 2-3 teams added to help expand the footprint a little bit, and possibly bring 2 quality basketball programs in.  With all of the conference realignment in the last decade, it is safer to be making moves proactively, than reactively, if a program leaves the HL.

[valpo84]

If I had my druthers, would add Belmont (Nashville). Private and fits what we would like. Would consider Murray because of its history of solid basketball and can pair with Belmont. Drake (pioneer league) is intriguing as it adds a private school and doesn't add tons of travel. Under no circumstances should we add NKU. There is no reason at all. No different than YSU, WSU, UWGB, UWM or CSU, and we have plenty of those. They can join the Summit.

The MVC really isn't much different than the Horizon -- NIU, WSU, SMS, ISU, ISU, SIU(most are public universities and travel costs jump).

A-10 is where the schools we are most similar reside, and has a few other Pioneer League teams (Davidson/Dayton). Gives them a Chicago/NWI media market. Picks up STL for us.

The other one we make lots of sense for is Big Least.

[a3uge]

What difference does it make if the HL adds a public or private school? I don't think its a good indicator of how decent athletics will perform. Nobody associates mid major conferences with academics or public/private splits, so I'm not sure why the league should turn down schools with large athletic budgets simply because they're public.

[vu72]

This hasn't been discussed in a while so thought I'd post a pretty interesting write-up on possible conference moves.  It is the "domino" effect.  He has Missouri State leaving the Valley for the SunBelt for Football reasons.  The Big East adding Dayton and St. Louis to further strengthen their Catholic affiliation  The Valley adding us and Milwaukee, The Horizon adding the IUPU teams and so forth.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=451&f=2368&t=12813059

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Dude is pretty roundly mocked for it though in the comments below.  Plus it dates back to 10 months ago.

I suppose we'll see.

[vu72]

Yeah, I suppose you are right. Still, the time frame is only 5 months away (July 1, 2015 ) and is  interesting speculation wise. Being in the Valley would be particularly interesting if Oral Roberts is added as we would have historic rivalries with them as well as Indiana State and Evansville from our ICC days.

Being in a conference with equal private and publics is also attractive.  Being in with Loyola, Bradley, Drake,and Evansville is also an upgrade from just Detroit.  This isn't a snob thing but rather a competitive thing.  Look at the academic requirements at YSU:

Applicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.

That pretty much means anybody can get in.  That's fine as low scores/grades can be attributed to many things.  It also means however that we aren't recruiting against/for the same kids.

[vu84v2]

Ohio State, Dayton, Cincinnati and Xavier would all make great travel partners with Wright State.

[bbtds]

It expands to 10 by inviting Morehead State, which does not sponsor football,

The PFL sure needs to get some better publicity when many members of the league are not known for having football teams. That is just out right embarrassing for the PFL.

[oklahomamick]

Applicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.

And someone was bashing UIC for academics? 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Applicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.

And someone was bashing UIC for academics? 

i believe that "conditional enrollment" is actually called

[vu72]

It expands to 10 by inviting Morehead State, which does not sponsor football,

The PFL sure needs to get some better publicity when many members of the league are not known for having football teams. That is just out right embarrassing for the PFL.

Good point, however the blame probably does to the author for not clarifying by saying "which does not sponsor "scholarship"football.

After all, Shelvin Mack didn't know that Butler had a football team!  

[a3uge]

I still don't understand why it really matters if other conference members have an academic reputation of Chicago State or of MIT. I don't understand why it matters if other schools are private, or big city commuter schools. We're competing an athletics, not games of Trivia Crack. Other than the Ivy League, what mid major conference is really known for their academics? It's not like we're the SWAC or Southland and have a long history of APR violations.

[vu84v2]

Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.

Other mid-major conference known for academics:  Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).

I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.

I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.

[a3uge]

Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.

Other mid-major conference known for academics:  Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).

I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.

I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.

But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.

[vu72]

Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.

Other mid-major conference known for academics:  Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).

I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.

I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.

But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.

I think it does matter for a few reasons.  First, is "value by association" (my term!) By this I mean that when a student or parent asks "who is in your conference?"  It makes a difference when you tell them you play in the PFL against the likes of Davidson, Butler, Drake, USD or Marist vs. saying you play against the YSU's, or even worse, Chicago States of the world.  There is a reason the Ivy or Patriot leagues have the members they have.  Alumni are much more inclined to want to brag to their friends in the office that the Butler game or Drake game or Bradley game, is coming versus the Chicago State game. 

Playing team where great rivalries can develop has great appeal to fans and generous alumni.  We will never have a meaningful rivalry with, say, Cleveland State or YSU.  Sure, some games will be of greater interest because of standings but that isn't what I'm discussing here.  Games against similar type schools--academically and athletically, build those sort of historical events.

Finally, it is a matter of academic similarities when it comes to recruiting.  YSU can attract and accept a kid who can jump out of the gym but also struggles academically.  As a result it becomes more difficult to compete. Again, historically we have had our way with YSU on the basketball court, but think about football.  How many of their players would be accepted into Valpo?  I don't know the answer but I can guess.  That is why similar schools are in certain conferences.  That is why we are a good fit for the PFL and not so much for the Horizon, now that Butler and Loyola have left.  We lost two very selective private schools and added one commuter school                                                               

[a3uge]

Chicago State's academics and reputation would make them a good fit for the SWAC or Southland. CSU is one of the worst universities overall in the country.

Other mid-major conference known for academics:  Patriot League (read Feinstein's book, The Last Amateurs).

I don't inherently have a problem with the academics at commuter schools or including them in a conference, but I think that it is reasonable to say that commuter schools do not generate the level of consistent fan interest that you would like to see from other conference members.

I think that a3uge raises a good question about other conference members' academic reputation. I would argue that there is an academic threshold that you should expect from other conference members. It is probably not that high of a threshold unless you are talking about the Ivy or Patriot Leagues. Having schools below that threshold can degrade the conference's reputation, but if all schools are above it then other factors will determine the reputation of the conference.

But why? Why does academic reputation matter in a mid-major athletics conference? It's not like Valpo's academic reputation is suffering because YSU and CSU are in the same athletic conference. Mid major sports is a niche following. There's not a lot of people that could name a single member of the Horizon League. Would Valpo's athletic stature improve if they went to the MVC? Do we think of Loyola differently now? If Chicago State joined the league, would we be viewed any differently? I just have a hard time believing that playing YSU twice a year vs Drake twice a year in basketball matters to anyone outside of athletics.

I think it does matter for a few reasons.  First, is "value by association" (my term!) By this I mean that when a student or parent asks "who is in your conference?"  It makes a difference when you tell them you play in the PFL against the likes of Davidson, Butler, Drake, USD or Marist vs. saying you play against the YSU's, or even worse, Chicago States of the world.  There is a reason the Ivy or Patriot leagues have the members they have.  Alumni are much more inclined to want to brag to their friends in the office that the Butler game or Drake game or Bradley game, is coming versus the Chicago State game. 

Playing team where great rivalries can develop has great appeal to fans and generous alumni.  We will never have a meaningful rivalry with, say, Cleveland State or YSU.  Sure, some games will be of greater interest because of standings but that isn't what I'm discussing here.  Games against similar type schools--academically and athletically, build those sort of historical events.

Finally, it is a matter of academic similarities when it comes to recruiting.  YSU can attract and accept a kid who can jump out of the gym but also struggles academically.  As a result it becomes more difficult to compete. Again, historically we have had our way with YSU on the basketball court, but think about football.  How many of their players would be accepted into Valpo?  I don't know the answer but I can guess.  That is why similar schools are in certain conferences.  That is why we are a good fit for the PFL and not so much for the Horizon, now that Butler and Loyola have left.  We lost two very selective private schools and added one commuter school                                                               

Addressing each point:

1. If I told my mom we were playing Bradley University she would give me the same blank stare as if I told her we were playing Cleveland State University. If we were playing an OOC game vs Holy Cross, my coworkers would stare at me as blankly as if I told them we were playing Wright State. I don't have a single friend or family member that judges the academic reputation of Valpo on the academic credentials of their college basketball opponents.

2. This has more to do with athletic success than academics. Wichita State, Murray State, and VCU all aren't great academically but still have a good following. Lehigh, Wofford, and Boston U all have great academics, but they all average below 1,500 people a game.

3. If there was a recruiting disadvantage, wouldn't we be struggling with recruits? We've had as good of recruiting classes as any in the league. If anything, being the only religious University actually puts  us at an advantage - recruits like Peters are very religious and were drawn to the small private school community. Does Oakland really have a better recruiting advantage than Butler did? That doesn't make any sense.

[VULB#62]

"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."

Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).

IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years??

[oklahomamick]

"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."

Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).

IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years??

Depends on how desperate the MVC becomes after they lose several schools.  The HL went against it's bylaws and took Oakland despite their gym not sitting 5,000. 

[bbtds]

"If the Titans don't get better fast, we're soon enough going to see something like Missouri State, Southern Illinois, or Indiana State join Conference USA for football, and Valpo replace them in the Valley, leaving us the sole private in the Horizon."

Between the link farther back and this quote from the Commish on the UDM thread, it appears that a general consensus is saying that Valpo might get another shot at the MVC (which I'd like because the MVC teams that appear in the ESPN crawler are so much more recognizable -- and other stuff as well).

IF that was to be the case, would the MVC require, as an act of good faith, a commitment by VU to upgrade the ARC within, say, 3 years??

Depends on how desperate the MVC becomes after they lose several schools.  The HL went against it's bylaws and took Oakland despite their gym not sitting 5,000. 

I don't see the BOD making any moves for athletic facilities (improvements or new) by speeding up the process just because a new conference wants Valpo and demands facility upgrades in a certain amount of time. The BOD would say they are extremely happy with the HL and decline the invite from the MVC. They would come up with some excuses about geographical fit and better academic standing in the HL.

[valpotx]

Applicants may be admitted to Youngstown State University conditionally if their high school grade point average is below 2.00 (out of 4.00) or their composite ACT score is below 17, or SAT critical reading and math composite is below a 820.

And someone was bashing UIC for academics? 

Good lord, I was not bashing UIC.  All I did was give a counter to a UIC fan's assertion that UIC was the best academic school in the HL.  There is a major difference between bashing a school, and just arguing that Valpo has a better reputation nationally in regards to academics!!

[oklahomamick]

true, I should have used another word than bashing.  And I agreed with your assessment on all of it.