HL expansion and conference challenge

[BigDFromUIC]

The bash was by valporun who said that UIC is a hard sell because of location and academics...unless he meant that as a compliment referring to our higher academic standards.  When I questioned that, you came on and said my academic question had an obvious answer...and I still disagree.  UIC has a very good engineering program and a very good medical program, including pharmacy, nursing, etc.  Many other programs are nationally competitive and, btw, research from about a decade ago showed that UIC was the only "name" school in IL to not have suffered from tremendous grade inflation...people work hard for their grades at UIC...the academics are tough.  We don't just put people on the honor roll like other schools.  The average grade at UIC is a C...as it should be.  Also, usnews rankings take into account grad rates, alumni giving rates, and other things that favor non-commuter, private schools.  They place in the rankings itself doesn't tell the whole story.

Valpo and UIC are different types of schools...you can't say that Valpo has a better reputation, and I can't say the opposite (note that I never did in that previous conversation...I simply asked which HL school has a better reputation and also for someone to back it up).  What is Valpo so well known for?  Someone else mentioned that phd/research schools aren't necessarily good academic schools...but nobody can deny the value of teaching someone research...everyone has benefitted from big time research, whether it be medical, technogical, or whatever.

[FWalum]

Graduating from college is a great achievement.  I am a very proud VU alumnus who tried to get my 3 children to go to VU. None of them did because they found other schools that fit their needs better than VU. None of them went to UIC either.  Does that make these schools bad? No, it just means that each individual must find what fits and works best for them.  All of my children went or are attending smaller schools because they believed that there are advantages to that environment. The emphasis at smaller schools is one of relationships, I believe that it is easier to thrive in that kind of atmosphere. Does that make larger schools like UIC bad? No.

You wanted to know a little bit more about VU, our reputation and what we are known for, well here is my feeble attempt at putting together a short list.

Valparaiso University consistently garners top rankings in many national publications. Student to faculty ratio is 13/1 and 87% of our faculty is fulltime. Only 4% of classes will have 50+ students.

Each year since 1990, U.S. News & World Report has listed Valparaiso University as a top-5 master's institution in the Midwest in its "America's Best Colleges" rankings.
U.S. News & World Report awarded Valpo a first-place (tied) ranking in Best Undergraduate Teaching. Valpo placed second in the magazine's Best Values in the Midwest list as well.
The College of Engineering has been named among the top 25 undergraduate-only engineering schools in the country.
Washington Monthly, which publishes its College Guide annually, ranked Valpo third out of all master's universities in the nation, as well as third on its list of colleges that contribute to the public good.
The Princeton Review's "Best 377 Colleges" includes Valpo on its "Best Midwestern Colleges" list.
Valpo regularly appears in Forbes Magazine's "America's Top Colleges" list.
The College of Business is accredited by the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business, placing it in the top five percent of MBA programs worldwide.
The College of Business is among the elite 25% of undergraduate business programs nationally accredited by AACSB International-The Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business.
Valpo has been named to The Best College's list of the 10 Most Innovative Colleges for Foreign Language Study, ranking among prestigious universities including Yale, Columbia, Cornell, and UCLA.
Valpo ranks second among U.S. master's degree institutions in producing winners of prestigious Fulbright awards for international study, research and study.
Valpo was named to the President's Higher Education Community Service Honor Roll for 2013, joining three other Indiana universities in achieving Honor Roll with Distinctions status.
Valpo ranks in the top 25 of Best undergraduate Engineering program accredited by ABET.
85% of pre-med students (and 100% of those from Christ College – The Honors College) are admitted to medical school.

[oklahomamick]

Interesting read on the HL blog.  It's fun to read what other fans think of HL conference changes and even valpo. 

http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/742/next-leave-hl

[classof2014]

If LeCrone doesn't do something another team will leave the HL and soon, I can see us getting Belmont, because of the soccer. The only thing that is keeping Belmont in a weak OVC is the geography. The closest school to them is Wright State which is quite a ways away from them. They are on a geographical island in Tennessee and the cost of travel would be very high since they'd have to fly to Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana and many occasions or take 8-10 hour bus-rides on a regular basis.

I wouldn't mind us expanding into Pennsylvania, pick up some Pittsburgh schools, like Robert Morris or Duquesne. Geographically IPFW or IUPUI make the most sense. Honestly IPFW wouldn't be too bad their program seems to be on the rise and can help build a rivalry between Northwest and Northeast Indiana.

___

If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball. 

In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.

Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.

[crusaderjoe]

If LeCrone doesn't do something another team will leave the HL and soon, I can see us getting Belmont, because of the soccer. The only thing that is keeping Belmont in a weak OVC is the geography. The closest school to them is Wright State which is quite a ways away from them. They are on a geographical island in Tennessee and the cost of travel would be very high since they'd have to fly to Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and Indiana and many occasions or take 8-10 hour bus-rides on a regular basis.

I wouldn't mind us expanding into Pennsylvania, pick up some Pittsburgh schools, like Robert Morris or Duquesne. Geographically IPFW or IUPUI make the most sense. Honestly IPFW wouldn't be too bad their program seems to be on the rise and can help build a rivalry between Northwest and Northeast Indiana.

___

If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball. 

In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.

Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.

Not so sure about "soon."  If VU is the leading candidate to leave the HL, then the HL actually should be stable for a while, IMO.  What conferences are "available" for us?  Valpo falls on the geographic fringe of the A-10 and the MVC has no reason at all to move beyond 10.  Realignment won't heat up again particularly if the NCAA allows conferences to hold football championship games with less than 12 members.  Unless the Big East moves to 12, UAB is kicked out of C-USA, the Sun Belt moves to 12, or P-5 conferences are able to add teams for gazillions of TV contract dollars, I don't know where this immediate movement is going to come from which would tear VU (or any school for that matter) away from the HL soon, IMO.   WAC football is dead and buried, so there's no chance of a mass FCS to FBS exodus either. 

[mgovalpo]

If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball. 

In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.

Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.
[/quote]

Google Maps tells me it is five hours from Valpo to Evansville (give or take a few minutes) That amount of driving will get you to every school currently in the HL except for YSU, which is five and a half hours from campus. That's not even considering how long it would take to get to Drake, Wichita State or Missouri State.

So geographically, a move to the MVC would kind of make sense. But only sort of.

[vu72]

If LeCrone continues to sit on his hands and do nothing, I hope Valpo leaves and I hope its the MVC. Geographically the move makes sense, we're an hour from Loyola, not far from Peoria, Bloomington, Terre Haute, and Evansville. Also its a better conference in terms of basketball. 

In this day and age with teams jumping ship as quick as they are nothing would surprise me. In the past the HL has had some good programs. Dayton, Marquette, St. Louis, Butler, Xavier, Evansville... I know some of these teams aren't the programs they are today but it goes to show the HL has had good programs but has trouble keeping them.

Based on the history I wouldn't hold my breath on the HL bringing in a strong program but rather a team blossoming and jumping ship.

Google Maps tells me it is five hours from Valpo to Evansville (give or take a few minutes) That amount of driving will get you to every school currently in the HL except for YSU, which is five and a half hours from campus. That's not even considering how long it would take to get to Drake, Wichita State or Missouri State.

So geographically, a move to the MVC would kind of make sense. But only sort of.
[/quote]




We'd fly to Wichita.  The money would come easily from a better tv contract, better attendance and better alumni support.  It is only about 6 hours to Drake.

[blackpantheruwm]

I think we can go a long way by dropping YSU. That's enough of a boost right there.

[wh]

From the Detroit board:

The Horizon League ADs met all week to discuss league business including expansion. Maybe we will hear something this off-season!

[valpotx]

It would be really great to hear that Belmont is joining

[historyman]

I have a feeling it will be something most of us didn't want to hear such as IPFW, IUPUI or NKU joining the HL.

[FWalum]

From what I have heard, I am pretty sure Belmont is not in the mix and I know for sure it is not IPFW.

[valpotx]

As long as it is not another directional or acronym school, I won't complain as much.  Heck, bring in ORU!

[valpopal]

With March Madness ending this weekend and the Horizon League folks attending the Final Four in Indianapolis, this is probably the time for the topic of expansion to pick up, especially since a final decision will need to be made in the next month or two in order to begin scheduling for next season.


LeCrone hinted in his news conference at the league tourney that a move would probably occur soon. My guess, and nothing more, is that Northern Kentucky would likely be the 10th member of the HL. They have ties to the Horizon League, they have good facilities, they are finishing their probationary period as a D-I school and will be able to compete for a championship, they provide a team in the Cincy area, and they are a good travel partner for Wright State. The league's travel partners would be the following: Green Bay / Milwaukee, UIC / Valpo, Oakland / Detroit, Cleveland St / Youngstown St, Wright St / Northern Kentucky.


I believe a future expansion to 12 teams would be desirable, but not likely this year. Among the teams under consideration, Murray St and Belmont would be the most appreciated. For various reasons (including football), I find it hard to believe Murray St would make the move, but I could see Belmont considering the jump to the Horizon League in the future. In fact, I believe they would be a good fit for the Horizon League.


If Belmont someday could be convinced, they would need a travel partner. Possible options: Murray St, Evansville, IUPUI. As I mentioned, I don't see Murray St making the move, though I would welcome them. Evansville should be in the Horizon League, but it would take some persuasion to get them to leave the MVC, and I'm not sure they would want to do so. IUPUI would not be as welcomed by many current HL fans, but they do have a number of factors in their favor: facilities, Indy Market and the HL headquarters, and a new coach that has been doing an excellent job of recruiting (today added a Syracuse transfer) and building a stronger team.


So, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!

[ValpoHoops]

Belmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay. The travel budgets for many teams would increase significantly...and money is tight right now. For example...teams that usually travel home right after a Saturday night game may have to stay another night, simply because their bus driver can not legally be on the road long enough to get them home. That's not cheap.

The HL should be looking within - or very close to - the current league footprint for team #10. If further expansion were occur, then it would be a far stronger argument to look outside the league footprint, as long as you were adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners.

Using the Northern Kentucky idea...
Milwaukee/Green Bay
UIC/Valpo
NKU/WSU
Oakland/Detroit
CSU/YSU

That's very nice for travel, and it would get basketball schedules (especially the women) back to a "normal" routine. Thursday-Saturday in normal weeks, Friday-Sunday when TV requires. This is better for the teams, the coaches, the players, and most of all, the academics.

[vu72]

With March Madness ending this weekend and the Horizon League folks attending the Final Four in Indianapolis, this is probably the time for the topic of expansion to pick up, especially since a final decision will need to be made in the next month or two in order to begin scheduling for next season.


LeCrone hinted in his news conference at the league tourney that a move would probably occur soon. My guess, and nothing more, is that Northern Kentucky would likely be the 10th member of the HL. They have ties to the Horizon League, they have good facilities, they are finishing their probationary period as a D-I school and will be able to compete for a championship, they provide a team in the Cincy area, and they are a good travel partner for Wright State. The league's travel partners would be the following: Green Bay / Milwaukee, UIC / Valpo, Oakland / Detroit, Cleveland St / Youngstown St, Wright St / Northern Kentucky.


I believe a future expansion to 12 teams would be desirable, but not likely this year. Among the teams under consideration, Murray St and Belmont would be the most appreciated. For various reasons (including football), I find it hard to believe Murray St would make the move, but I could see Belmont considering the jump to the Horizon League in the future. In fact, I believe they would be a good fit for the Horizon League.


If Belmont someday could be convinced, they would need a travel partner. Possible options: Murray St, Evansville, IUPUI. As I mentioned, I don't see Murray St making the move, though I would welcome them. Evansville should be in the Horizon League, but it would take some persuasion to get them to leave the MVC, and I'm not sure they would want to do so. IUPUI would not be as welcomed by many current HL fans, but they do have a number of factors in their favor: facilities, Indy Market and the HL headquarters, and a new coach that has been doing an excellent job of recruiting (today added a Syracuse transfer) and building a stronger team.


So, my guess: Northern Kentucky this year and the possibility of two more teams in the future. Who knows? I certainly don't, and I am only guessing in order to further the discussion. Have at it!

Belmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay.

Travel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal.  Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports.  Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel.  Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.

[ValpoHoops]

Travel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal.  Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports.  Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel.  Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.

Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.

[valpopal]

Belmont would be a tough sell for any athletic department to its president/chancellor/whoever makes that final decision. It is a 5 hour trip by bus from Nashville to Dayton (with Wright State being the closest school). To ask Belmont's student-athletes (and remember, we're talking about ALL sports here, not just basketball) to make a five-hour minimum drive every road trip, and each HL school would have a new "longest" trip, with the exception of maybe Green Bay. The travel budgets for many teams would increase significantly...and money is tight right now. For example...teams that usually travel home right after a Saturday night game may have to stay another night, simply because their bus driver can not legally be on the road long enough to get them home. That's not cheap.

The HL should be looking within - or very close to - the current league footprint for team #10. If further expansion were occur, then it would be a far stronger argument to look outside the league footprint, as long as you were adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners.

Using the Northern Kentucky idea...
Milwaukee/Green Bay
UIC/Valpo
NKU/WSU
Oakland/Detroit
CSU/YSU

That's very nice for travel, and it would get basketball schedules (especially the women) back to a "normal" routine. Thursday-Saturday in normal weeks, Friday-Sunday when TV requires. This is better for the teams, the coaches, the players, and most of all, the academics.

Speaking of "adding two teams in the same general area who could be travel partners": if we cannot add Murray State with Belmont, an out-of-the-box suggestion would be to bring in Belmont and Lipscomb as the 11th & 12th teams to go with the line-up above: both are private religious universities who are rivals in the same city of Nashville. There would be a problem with having two HL members so close, but we see it working for Oakland and Detroit, and we have had UIC and Loyola in the conference together. This would help with travel costs since one trip would serve for playing two teams. There are other considerations to be discussed with this idea, but it is worth a conversation.

[wh]

There's some chatter about UAB and Valpo joining the MVC. Have no idea if there's anything to it or just pure speculation.

[bbtds]

It seems strange that when we talk about the logistical problems with Belmont joining the HL we are forgetting that Belmont is already an associate member of the HL in men's soccer and those issues don't seem to be too much of a problem. Someone should talk to the coaches of the men's soccer teams to see how visiting Nashville once every two years works out for them. Probably not much different than most of the OOC soccer matches they play every year before the conference season gets started.

[valpopal]

Northern Kentucky today has named a new basketball head coach, John Brannen, an Alabama assistant who also was named as the Tide's interim head coach for this year's NIT. This is a good addition for NKU, which will be eligible for postseason play in 2016-2017. This also takes care of a needed step before possible addition of NKU to Horizon League, if that is the plan.

[vu72]

Travel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal.  Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports.  Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel.  Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.

Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.

Wait a minute.  Are you telling me schools like Butler and Creighton care more about the big pay day then their student athletes and all those missed classes?  Say it isn't so!   

[mvandersee]

Travel, in today's college athletic scene, is just part of the deal.  Think of Butler traveling to Georgetown, in all sports.  Closer to home, think of Valpo in the Mid-Con, traveling to Utah, Louisiana and Tulsa. It has to be more than travel.  Belmont would be a great fit and the upward move in conferences and potential NCAA pay days will make the difference I would think.

Also think of the Big East and how much more money they bring in from TV/NCAA revenue. That's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

One of the reasons we got OUT of the Mid-Con was to eliminate a whole bunch of travel. It was a huge deal - we were spending a fortune on plane tickets and kids were missing far too many classes. Belmont would be a great fit...if they were 500 miles north of where they are. I do believe that one day we will look at them, but if the HL is adding just one school at present, Belmont shouldn't be the one. They should be looked at only if they can be paired with another school that sits to the south of the current HL footprint.

Wait a minute.  Are you telling me schools like Butler and Creighton care more about the big pay day then their student athletes and all those missed classes?  Say it isn't so!   

Well in theory that extra income could be used to charter flights to those conference schools that are further away, which should reduce the amount of class time missed per road trip. However, I'm not sure if there's any way of knowing if this money actually gets used like that

[frontrowfan]

we fly private charter at least once this year that I know of....don't think that Belmont is that significant of travel $$$ issue but agree lost class time is a concern.

[valpotx]

There's some chatter about UAB and Valpo joining the MVC. Have no idea if there's anything to it or just pure speculation.

I'd take it!  It would be great for me, since I would get to see Valpo baseball every other year, since Dallas Baptist is an Associate Member in that sport!