DEATH MARCH OF THE PENGUINS 2015

[historyman]

This is the first I remember hearing this.  Is it credible?  Why would Valpo turn down the HL?

You seem to be forgetting your Valpo history. Before ML accepted the invitation to join the HL the Valpo AD was a former Valpo football player, who played with Fuzzy Thurston, by the name of Bill Steinbrecher. His son was Jon Steinbrecher, VU HOF member, then commissioner of the Mid-Con and current commissioner of the Mid-American Conference. So for Bill S to accept an invitation to the Horizon League meant leaving the Mid-Con where his son was the commissioner. He made the decision to not accept the offer. Some of that decision was based on the fact that certain members of the HL had lied to Jon S by saying they were staying in the Mid-Con just before jumping to the HL. After Bill retired and Jon moved on to be commissioner of the OVC before moving on to the MAC, ML became Valpo AD and there were not as many big issues with joining the Horizon League. 

[talksalot]

Gotta tell you ... I'm a big fan of the 'Guins... for the next 5 days... I want them to win Tuesday night in Detroit...and roll into Valpo on Friday with a bunch of momentum and take out their NE Ohio Colleagues...

[HC]

Liar! You just want to see Mr. And Mrs. penguin come back to the ARC!

[Kyle321n]

Liar! You just want to see Mr. And Mrs. penguin come back to the ARC!

Who doesnt'?

[talksalot]

That was a given... too bad they could not make it for the Crusader's Birthday a month ago...we certainly would have sold more tickets!

[blackpantheruwm]

Remember too that according to BigD the conference accepted YSU only after Valpo turned them down.  Just like a bad hire, the people who brought them in share responsibility for their failure to return any value to the conference.

This is the first I remember hearing this.  Is it credible?  Why would Valpo turn down the HL?  Were the arguments about geography and increased competition any less true back then, compared to when we _did_ join?  Maybe the Midcon wasn't yet _as_ spread out as it became.  But, still...

What I had heard was that the athletic director at the time (2000-ish) at Valpo was the father of the Mid-Con commissioner, or was the commissioner the father and the AD the son...?  You guys would know that better than me. Anyway, that's what I've always known as the reason that Valpo stayed in the Mid-Con at the time. We didn't go for Oakland because they were brand new in D-I, and so they moved to Youngstown. It's a joke, and the universities should have the stones to throw them out of the conference. But I've had long-running arguments with people who have worked directly for the conference who maintain, after all this time, that YSU is an asset to the conference.

I wholeheartedly believe we would do more justice for the Horizon League by booting YSU and going to eight schools than adding ANYONE outside of Belmont or Northern Kentucky. YSU is such a drag on the conference RPI it's sad. YSU's RPI as of Saturday, they are 282 or 8th in the conference. Let's go back, shall we?

2014 - 242, 8th HL
2013 - 188, 6th
2012 - 171, 7th
2011 - 295, 10th
2010 - 271, 9th
2009 - 239, 8th
2008 - 227, 9th
2007 - 173, 6th
2006 - 305, 9th
2005 - 321, 9th
2004 - 259, 8th
2003 - 280, 9th
2002 - 309, 9th

So, let's come up with some numbers here. In their 14th year as a member of the Horizon League, Youngstown State has been more than an RPI anchor exactly three times (2007, 2012, 2013). When I say anchor, that is to say a sub-200 RPI team that will drop your RPI considerably even if you blow them out. I have an example of YSU hurting us specifically. In the 2006 season, we played YSU in February when we were running away as conference champions. Here is the game link. We were beating them so bad, our lead was 100% safe by the first media timeout of the second half (Bill James game flow stat). YSU was so god-awful that a day after we beat them by 41 points, our RPI went from 44th to 72nd. It didn't recover (I believe we ended the regular season in the late 50s), and we drew an 11-seed in the tournament. Which was fine when we beat Oklahoma in the first round, but killed us in the second because we played Florida, who went on to win their first of back-to-back NCAA titles.

YSU has finished as one of the two worst teams in the conference for RPI NINE TIMES out of a possible 14.

YSU has been like this for a long time. Where would Valpo's RPI be if they didn't have two Youngstown State games on there? Significantly higher. And the same could be said for every team. In 2012 and 2013, they were spearheaded by Kendrick Perry and Damian Eargle, who are far and away two of their best 4 or 5 players EVER. What's the chances, with their high school gym and miniscule budget, fossil head coach and poor, dilapidated metro area, of them coming even close to getting two players like Perry and Eargle at the same time again?

Keep in mind, that in those two years, their best years in the Horizon League outside maybe 2007 (Jeter and Waters were both taking over empty cupboards, Watson was winding down at Detroit), THEY STILL FINISHED IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE CONFERENCE. Not once have they ever been a successful Horizon League program. Ever. They have won FOUR conference tournament games in the Horizon League. EVER. We won FOUR games LAST SEASON in the tournament! Valparaiso has won SEVEN conference tournament games and you've been in the conference HALF the time! UIC, who has done absolutely nothing since 2004 in the Horizon League, has SEVEN tournament victories since then!

Youngstown State is such a HUGE drag on the conference, I wonder how they're still in the conference. Then I remember that Jon Lecrone is the commissioner, he was the commissioner when we recruited YSU, so removing them would be a huge drop on his legacy. I wish he wouldn't see it that way, but I'm sure it is. Lecrone's legacy in college sports history is the Horizon League tournament format, which took this conference from being a pushover on the national stage to being one of the best mid-majors around. That's a huge contribution, and I wish he'd get past that and recognize we need to cut our losses with Youngstown State.

Please. For the love of this conference, save it by pushing the conference presidents and chancellors to vote YSU off the island. I don't care about their women's indoor track title. This conference is about basketball.

[a3uge]

The most bizarre part of the YSU addition was that it left the Horizon with an uneven 9 teams for several years. There wasn't a need for YSU ever. YSU had no history of success. They've only broken the top 100 RPI once in their entire history - and that was back in 1984.

[wh]

Remember too that according to BigD the conference accepted YSU only after Valpo turned them down.  Just like a bad hire, the people who brought them in share responsibility for their failure to return any value to the conference.

This is the first I remember hearing this.  Is it credible?  Why would Valpo turn down the HL?  Were the arguments about geography and increased competition any less true back then, compared to when we _did_ join?  Maybe the Midcon wasn't yet _as_ spread out as it became.  But, still...

What I had heard was that the athletic director at the time (2000-ish) at Valpo was the father of the Mid-Con commissioner, or was the commissioner the father and the AD the son...?  You guys would know that better than me. Anyway, that's what I've always known as the reason that Valpo stayed in the Mid-Con at the time. We didn't go for Oakland because they were brand new in D-I, and so they moved to Youngstown. It's a joke, and the universities should have the stones to throw them out of the conference. But I've had long-running arguments with people who have worked directly for the conference who maintain, after all this time, that YSU is an asset to the conference.

I wholeheartedly believe we would do more justice for the Horizon League by booting YSU and going to eight schools than adding ANYONE outside of Belmont or Northern Kentucky. YSU is such a drag on the conference RPI it's sad. YSU's RPI as of Saturday, they are 282 or 8th in the conference. Let's go back, shall we?

2014 - 242, 8th HL
2013 - 188, 6th
2012 - 171, 7th
2011 - 295, 10th
2010 - 271, 9th
2009 - 239, 8th
2008 - 227, 9th
2007 - 173, 6th
2006 - 305, 9th
2005 - 321, 9th
2004 - 259, 8th
2003 - 280, 9th
2002 - 309, 9th

So, let's come up with some numbers here. In their 14th year as a member of the Horizon League, Youngstown State has been more than an RPI anchor exactly three times (2007, 2012, 2013). When I say anchor, that is to say a sub-200 RPI team that will drop your RPI considerably even if you blow them out. I have an example of YSU hurting us specifically. In the 2006 season, we played YSU in February when we were running away as conference champions. Here is the game link. We were beating them so bad, our lead was 100% safe by the first media timeout of the second half (Bill James game flow stat). YSU was so god-awful that a day after we beat them by 41 points, our RPI went from 44th to 72nd. It didn't recover (I believe we ended the regular season in the late 50s), and we drew an 11-seed in the tournament. Which was fine when we beat Oklahoma in the first round, but killed us in the second because we played Florida, who went on to win their first of back-to-back NCAA titles.

YSU has finished as one of the two worst teams in the conference for RPI NINE TIMES out of a possible 14.

YSU has been like this for a long time. Where would Valpo's RPI be if they didn't have two Youngstown State games on there? Significantly higher. And the same could be said for every team. In 2012 and 2013, they were spearheaded by Kendrick Perry and Damian Eargle, who are far and away two of their best 4 or 5 players EVER. What's the chances, with their high school gym and miniscule budget, fossil head coach and poor, dilapidated metro area, of them coming even close to getting two players like Perry and Eargle at the same time again?

Keep in mind, that in those two years, their best years in the Horizon League outside maybe 2007 (Jeter and Waters were both taking over empty cupboards, Watson was winding down at Detroit), THEY STILL FINISHED IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THE CONFERENCE. Not once have they ever been a successful Horizon League program. Ever. They have won FOUR conference tournament games in the Horizon League. EVER. We won FOUR games LAST SEASON in the tournament! Valparaiso has won SEVEN conference tournament games and you've been in the conference HALF the time! UIC, who has done absolutely nothing since 2004 in the Horizon League, has SEVEN tournament victories since then!

Youngstown State is such a HUGE drag on the conference, I wonder how they're still in the conference. Then I remember that Jon Lecrone is the commissioner, he was the commissioner when we recruited YSU, so removing them would be a huge drop on his legacy. I wish he wouldn't see it that way, but I'm sure it is. Lecrone's legacy in college sports history is the Horizon League tournament format, which took this conference from being a pushover on the national stage to being one of the best mid-majors around. That's a huge contribution, and I wish he'd get past that and recognize we need to cut our losses with Youngstown State.

Please. For the love of this conference, save it by pushing the conference presidents and chancellors to vote YSU off the island. I don't care about their women's indoor track title. This conference is about basketball.

Wow, this reads more like an in-depth guest editorial than a fan post. You make an overwhelming case as to just how detrimental YSU is to the Horizon League's standing among conferences.

[talksalot]

Take Basketball out of the equation.   Look at their Track Facilities... Swimming / Diving.... look at the "momofalex" post on the "Track" topic.

[blackpantheruwm]

Take Basketball out of the equation.   Look at their Track Facilities... Swimming / Diving.... look at the "momofalex" post on the "Track" topic.

Who cares? I'm sorry, I really am. And remember, this is coming from a guy who can't count how many track titles his school has because we keep adding to the pile.  Frankly, this is the hierarchy of sports in the Horizon League as they pertain to membership:

1. Basketball
2. Basketball
3. Basketball
4. Basketball
5. Basketball
6. Basketball
7. Basketball
8. Basketball
9. Basketball
10. Basketball
11. Basketball
12. Basketball
13. Baseball
14. Soccer
15. Volleyball
16. Basketball
17. Basketball
18. Basketball

I love having a ton of titles in volleyball - we have a regular season or tournament title in every year outside of 2012 and 2014 going back to 1997. Does it matter that the Horizon League is a total pushover in the sport? Not in the slightest. It doesn't matter how well those sports play, it matters THAT they play. That's all. Baseball is a fun sport and you can get some notoriety for going to the College World Series, but the regular season is wholly irrelevant on any national stage. Soccer is a sport that I follow - I've been to several other schools and traveled as far as Notre Dame for the NCAA Tournament. But it's also irrelevant.

In picking members of THIS conference, the only thing that should matter is basketball. In a conference with 9 members, 8 are basketball-first. One is not. That needs to be rectified.

[bbtds]

What I had heard was that the athletic director at the time (2000-ish) at Valpo was the father of the Mid-Con commissioner, or was the commissioner the father and the AD the son...?  You guys would know that better than me.

I find it interesting that your school was one of the six that jumped from the Mid-Con to the HL (MCC) in 1994 and left Valpo high and dry in a conference that was less than half what it used to be. That had quite a bit to do with why Valpo decided not to join the HL at that time. It was 13 years later that Valpo finally joined the HL. 

[wh]

What I had heard was that the athletic director at the time (2000-ish) at Valpo was the father of the Mid-Con commissioner, or was the commissioner the father and the AD the son...?  You guys would know that better than me.

I find it interesting that your school was one of the six that jumped from the Mid-Con to the HL (MCC) in 1994 and left Valpo high and dry in a conference that was less than half what it used to be. That had quite a bit to do with why Valpo decided not to join the HL at that time. It was 13 years later that Valpo finally joined the HL. 

The account you just shared of what happened in 1994 has been challenged by BigD, who said we were in fact invited to go with the others who left.  Let's be honest.  None of us have 1st hand knowledge of what happened back then.  We only know what we've been told 40th hand coming out of the then AD's office.  I believed it for years because I had no reason not to, but not anymore. 

As you probably know, long after we made the switch to the HL, BigD first came forward with the revelation (which he claims WSU's AD or Asst AD told him directly) that we turned the HL down before they invited YSU in 2001.   At some point I became convinced that he was being truthful and as a result we floundered for years longer than we should have in the Mid Con and squandered an opportunity to elevate our program in the aftermath of our 1998 Sweet 16 cinderella story. 

Later, he gave a completely different account of what happened and how it happened in 1994. What he said started making a lot more sense than what was always a pretty hard to imagine "left behind" story.  Whatever went down in 1994 doesn't bother me nearly as much as what happened in 2001. Staying in the Mid Con when the other teams left resulted in an incredible run of championships and tourney appearances that put us on the map of college basketball.

I just think it's time to stop accusing these other HL programs of conspiring against us when they may have done nothing of the sort. Even if you believe it, what purpose is served by bringing it up to Jimmy Lemke, who was probably a kindergartener or something in 1994?             

[classof2014]

I agree YSU needs to go. They are in a terrible city (sorry Youngstownians) but the Northeast Ohio location isn't too terrible but then you look at other teams that are within a stones throw of Youngstown, Cleveland St, Akron, Kent St, Ohio, Duquesne, Pitt, Toledo, Miami, I might be missing a couple. All of those schools are better choices if you're from the Cleveland/Northeast Ohio area and don't want to go to far. They get the last pick, the reason they landed Eargle who was good not great was because he was from Youngstown. Landing Kendrick Perry was simply luck, there's a reason why they need to go to Florida and Texas to find players and if you're from Florida why the hell do you want to go to school in Youngstown Ohio !?!

Perhaps the MAC will expand one day and absorb YSU, the MAC is a football first conference and YSU is a football first school. To me that's more of a possibility than them getting the boot from the conference.

[oklahomamick]

We talk about making the HL better.  Lose YSU and add this school.  Let's bail.  Call up the Valley. 

Or....stay here and try to win some tournament bids like we did in the Mid-con. 

[vu72]

Remember too that according to BigD the conference accepted YSU only after Valpo turned them down.  Just like a bad hire, the people who brought them in share responsibility for their failure to return any value to the conference.

This is the first I remember hearing this.  Is it credible?  Why would Valpo turn down the HL? Were the arguments about geography and increased competition any less true back then, compared to when we _did_ join?  Maybe the Midcon wasn't yet _as_ spread out as it became.  But, still...

This goes way back to when Bill Steinbrecher was still the AD.  At the time, his son was the Commissioner of the Mid-Con.  Bill felt a great deal of loyalty to the Mid-Con even though it was a real mess geographically and otherwise. In addition, there was a great deal of resentment toward several members of the Horizon League who had bolted from the Mid-Con.  Fortunately, Mark LaBarbera was hired.

[blackpantheruwm]

For those keeping score, I was in kindergarten in the 1992-93 school year. So I should have been aware of what was going on when we moved from the Mid-Con to the MCC.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

i think you should have been aware, because you were actually in first grade, about to enter second.

[talksalot]

I was in kindergarten in the 1992-93 school year

Remember it well... I was in my 5th year announcing in the ARC....We played in the Baylor Classic... and lost 7 of our first 9... but we did win a game in the MidCon over NIU...

[valporun]

The only reason why YSU is still apart of the HL now is because of the need for 6 teams to have an NCAA bid in our other sports. That's the only reason. It has nothing to do with basketball for their still being in the conference. If we drop YSU, we lose auto-bids in baseball, softball, tennis, volleyball championships. Anyone who wants to keep arguing for dropping Youngstown better have an immediate alternative that isn't going to require 5 years to reach competitive levels.

[wh]

Keene & Vaughn leaving YSU men's program

http://wkbn.com/2015/03/24/keene-vaughn-leaving-ysu-mens-program/

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Keene & Vaughn leaving YSU men's program

probably to focus on their comedy act, or possibly to start a law firm

As WKBN was first to report Tuesday morning, YSU's leading scorer Marcus Keene and Sophomore Osandai Vaughn are leaving the Penguin program for undisclosed reasons.

...

As WKBN was first to report Tuesday morning, YSU's leading scorer Marcus Keene and Sophomore Osandai Vaughn are leaving the Penguin program for undisclosed reasons.

really?

As WKBN was first to report Tuesday morning, YSU's leading scorer Marcus Keene and Sophomore Osandai Vaughn are leaving the Penguin program for reasons disclosed to be related to what one source called "a puddle of suck".

THERE WE GO

[covufan]

Quote (selected)As WKBN was first to report Tuesday morning, YSU's leading scorer Marcus Keene and Sophomore Osandai Vaughn are leaving the Penguin program for undisclosed reasons.really?Quote (selected)As WKBN was first to report Tuesday morning, YSU's leading scorer Marcus Keene and Sophomore Osandai Vaughn are leaving the Penguin program for reasons disclosed to be related to what one source called "a puddle of suck".THERE WE GO

I'm sure most HL fans, and maybe Youngstown people in general, are reading the first line and thinking of your 'read between the lines' version!  Although some may have been more profane in their own thoughts!

[a3uge]

Keene & Vaughn leaving YSU men's program

probably to focus on their comedy act, or possibly to start a law firm

Keene pealed off.

[blackpantheruwm]

They could register their worst RPI as a member of the Horizon League next season. Lost their only good players. It's going to be a   show.

[historyman]

No matter what we think of the Penguins other programs, the YSU football program is alive and well and supporting the other athletic programs at this public university. They must really laugh at us when their football team spanks our football team so badly every time they play the Crusaders. Well, sports fans, this is the year to show those laughing YSU football fans that our Valpo football team is improving, yes, there was a lot of room for growth, while their other athletic programs are still mired in the mud of even poorer HL competition.


September 15, 2018, Saturday, 2:00 p.m. eastern/1:00 central