Obama criticizes crusades

[LaPorteAveApostle]

The article from The Atlantic is very long--might be the longest article you read all year--but it is the single most helpful thing you can read in English to understand what ISIS is, and how it differs from al-Qaeda, et al.

You'll learn a lot about Islam too.

[FWalum]

Obama was right on in his criticism of the Crusades. An article "The First Victims of the First Crusade" by Susan Jacoby recently appeared in the Sunday Times. The crusaders started off by killing Jews in Trier and Mainz in preparation for the invasion of The Holy Land. Over 700 Jews were slaughtered in Mainz alone. So you "cultural ignoramuses" need to read up on the First Crusades.----- Go Obama you got it right.

Come on setshot... pretty weak effort.  Then it seems that if anyone should be mad at the West about the crusades it should be Israel!

Atrocities on both sides, Christians and Muslim, but the only "cultural ignoramuses" are the ones viewing the crusades from only one side (or one culture) of the argument.  Middle Eastern Christians have taken the brunt of the wars in both time frames and are still being martyred now, as was witnessed in the past few days.  They have no voice and little culture left because, as Marie Harf will never comprehend, they have almost literally been slaughtered into extinction.

[classof2014]

This along with many reasons is why I can't stand politics. Politicians try to make everyone happy and by doing so pisses about everyone off except for their wife and that nutjob that lives in Oregon.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-real-history-of-the-crusades#at_pco=smlwn-1.0&at_si=54e4eaa8cdc45b03&at_ab=per-12&at_pos=0&at_tot=1

[valpo64]

Who cares!!

[wh]

I have no idea who cares, but I think I know 1 person who doesn't...

[StlVUFan]

It's always been the stories of violent attempts to convert Muslims that has made it's impression on me, as alluded to in that story.

By the same token, I know well of Suleiman's attack on the Holy Roman Empire of the German nations which coincided with the Reformation, so I do recognize the provocation.

I do think it is fair to question whether or not this kind of thing *did* appeal to opportunistic popes.  I think history records many acts of opportunism by popes back then.

I'm still waiting by the way for someone to explain to me how Obama equated the Crusades to ISIS.  I think people are *inferring* this perhaps because it's what they want to hear.  I took him as simply saying our slate is far from clean on this score.

In fairness, I don't necessarily ascribe pure motives to what Obama is saying, nor do I grant him the deep insight I'm referring to, and I can understand how people can get the impression that he is drawing a false equivalence.  It would just be nice to hear an explicit quote where Obama did this, rather than making me feel like we're putting words in his mouth.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I think history records many acts of opportunism by popes back then.

Indeed...they acted on the opportunity to preserve Christianity, not to mention Western civilization.  Each and every time Christendom rallies to the Cross, it has been to defend itself, never to attack.  This is the opposite of the history of Islamic aggression.  But no big deal if you haven't read much on the topic...I doubt Protestants talk/ed much of Lepanto (and "Don John of Austria!" in the words of GK Chesterton), or Charles Martel ("The Hammer!"), or Los Reyes Católicos, etc., etc.  Ask a Spaniard and they remember 700 years of occupation still today, though.

"If you can read this in not-Arabic, thank a pope."

The President warned us

lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.  In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.

I would agree with the NYTimes' Ross Douthat as linked to above on the problems in that statement. If that's not an equivalence, what is it?

Oh, and an estimated six million Muslims convert to Christianity every year, so I doubt it's at the point of a sword.

[StlVUFan]

You know that's not what I meant by opportunism.  I was speaking of political and financial opportunism.

There are plenty of Christians converting to Islam, too, by the way.

I agree it would be a false equivalence, and I did say I understood how it could be taken that way, but it's still reading between the lines, which is usually not a 100% sure thing.

I question Obama's motivation for making the statement.  From a purely political point of view, it's a risky one.  It might be foolish.

I would still insist there's a kernel of truth in it, that's likely to be avoided by everyone.

[wh]

You know that's not what I meant by opportunism.  I was speaking of political and financial opportunism.

There are plenty of Christians converting to Islam, too, by the way.

I agree it would be a false equivalence, and I did say I understood how it could be taken that way, but it's still reading between the lines, which is usually not a 100% sure thing.

I question Obama's motivation for making the statement.  From a purely political point of view, it's a risky one.  It might be foolish.

I would still insist there's a kernel of truth in it, that's likely to be avoided by everyone.

Willingly, or with a knife at the throat?

[vu84v2]

The article LAA posted from the Atlantic is one of the best written and comprehensively researched articles that I have seen any periodical in a long time.  Thank you very much for posting the link to it. I read it and subsequently had some good discussions with friends about it. I don't think it really changed my general opinions (any person or group that attacks or harms in the name of their religion, regardless of their religion, is inherently evil...and it is the person or group that is evil, not the religion), but it certainly offered a perspective of how these extremely evil people in ISIS/ISIL think. In terms of national policy, I am always concerned that politicians/governments are not considering how their foe thinks when developing strategy.

A few other thoughts from comments in this thread:
-I am very confident that this is the only college basketball fan forum that debates political and intellectual issues at this level (smile).
-There have been and will continue to be people converting from Christianity to Islam (and vice versa and to/from other religions) based their own decisions. ISIS/ISIL forcing people to do so is evil, and indeed forcing anyone is evil. But outside of that, a free society includes the freedom to choose what religion that you choose to follow.
-I am not as "anti-Obama" as some people on this site may be, but I do feel that he struggles as a leader with several things. One of his struggles is having a clear message. The "job opportunities" comment from one of his senior staff is such an example. The comment on its own sounds pretty stupid, especially when you consider how evil the leaders of ISIS/ISIL are. But put it in a different context. There are millions of people in horrible poverty with no education in the middle east and central asia. These people are desperate for anything to sustain themselves and their families and have no ability to read and critically think for themselves. There are immense vacuums in the lives of these people and organizations like ISIS/ISIL, Taliban, etc., as evil as they are, fill that vacuum when no other option does. Furthermore, these evil organizations psychologically exploit these people by convincing them that their poor lot in life is due to western culture - not themselves, their government, the evil organizations, etc.

[StlVUFan]

You know that's not what I meant by opportunism.  I was speaking of political and financial opportunism.

There are plenty of Christians converting to Islam, too, by the way.

I agree it would be a false equivalence, and I did say I understood how it could be taken that way, but it's still reading between the lines, which is usually not a 100% sure thing.

I question Obama's motivation for making the statement.  From a purely political point of view, it's a risky one.  It might be foolish.

I would still insist there's a kernel of truth in it, that's likely to be avoided by everyone.

Willingly, or with a knife at the throat?

Willingly, of course.

[StlVUFan]

There are millions of people in horrible poverty with no education in the middle east and central asia. These people are desperate for anything to sustain themselves and their families and have no ability to read and critically think for themselves. There are immense vacuums in the lives of these people and organizations like ISIS/ISIL, Taliban, etc., as evil as they are, fill that vacuum when no other option does. Furthermore, these evil organizations psychologically exploit these people by convincing them that their poor lot in life is due to western culture - not themselves, their government, the evil organizations, etc.

All I've ever believed is that we should fess up to whatever our role is in helping to create such conditions in which recruitment to terrorism is a piece of cake.  "Aiding and abetting" is the phrase that usually comes to mind for me.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Willingly, of course.

How can anyone take someone seriously when they believe the traffic on Christians => Muslims is willingly, and and Muslims => Christians is knife-to-the-throat?

You've not just been divorced from reality, you've had it annulled.

[vu84v2]

LAA: No idea what you are intending to say. Who said muslims are being forced to be christians?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Who said muslims are being forced to be christians?

STL says that the Christians converting to Islam are doing so "willingly" and that Muslims converting to Christians are doing so "with a knife at the throat".

That's ... ignorant, as mildly as I can put it.  "Bass-ackwards", someone else might say.

The corpses ISIS is piling up speak to the truth.

[vu84v2]

Excluding the evil of ISIS/ISIL and how they force christians to convert to islam, there are (and always have been) people in the U.S. and other parts of the world that choose to convert to Islam.  A free society must allow people to make their own choices regarding religion.

[ValpoFan]

Just for the sake of clarity and to avoid being deceiving, allow me to start this post by disclosing that I am a Muslim. My hope is that this post will not be offensive to anyone. If it is, I apologize in advance.

As horrible as it sounds and as strongly as I oppose it and denounce it, I am not sure I understand the concept of changing religion with a knife to the throat. When someone is threatened, they can (and should) say whatever is needed to get them out of danger. That does not in anyway result in changing their religion. What's in their heart is really what matters, right?

On another note, it is important to note that so far, ISIS has killed around 10 Muslims for every Christian (apologies for having to use such horrific statistics). In other words, ISIS crimes shall not be portrayed as "the" Muslims killing "the" Christians. ISIS is a barbaric organization killing anyone who opposes them regardless of their faith. 

Thank you

[historyman]

and that Muslims converting to Christians are doing so "with a knife at the throat".

I believe you are reading too much into what StL said. I don't believe he said that.

I also agree with Valpofan. Lumping ISIS in with all muslims is just ridiculous.  The idea that muslims are backing ISIS is absurd since they are the ones taking most of the abuse that ISIS is handing out. It was a Jordanian pilot being burned alive that sparked the corporal punishment of ISIS members being held in Jordan. Many Syrians and Iraqis have suffered greatly in ISIS controlled areas. Yes, ISIS propaganda is mostly centered on Christians but the ones under control of ISIS, who are mostly muslims, suffer the most from ISIS cruelty.

[vu84v2]

Valpofan - Thank you for the thoughtful insights.

[wh]

Just for the sake of clarity and to avoid being deceiving, allow me to start this post by disclosing that I am a Muslim. My hope is that this post will not be offensive to anyone. If it is, I apologize in advance.

As horrible as it sounds and as strongly as I oppose it and denounce it, I am not sure I understand the concept of changing religion with a knife to the throat. When someone is threatened, they can (and should) say whatever is needed to get them out of danger. That does not in anyway result in changing their religion. What's in their heart is really what matters, right?

On another note, it is important to note that so far, ISIS has killed around 10 Muslims for every Christian (apologies for having to use such horrific statistics). In other words, ISIS crimes shall not be portrayed as "the" Muslims killing "the" Christians. ISIS is a barbaric organization killing anyone who opposes them regardless of their faith. 

Thank you

That is incorrect. For a Christian to deny their faith in Jesus Christ in the face of death is a cowardly act.  Matthew 10:32-33 of the New Testament of the Bible says, "Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven."  The 21 Coptic Christians who were brutally beheaded at the hands of ISIS henchmen, as one example, are heroes who were martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ by evildoers of God's greatest enemy, Satan. Today, they are rejoicing in heaven and I am rejoicing for them.

As to ISIS killing more Muslims than Christians or Jews, this is only the beginning by their own admission.  It's nothing more than an early plot point on a murderous, apocalyptic rampage. If they have their way, they will conquer the Middle East, adjacent areas of Africa, then Europe and the United States - and of course destroy Israel.  This is in the opinion of many, myself included, the biggest danger to mankind since Hitler and Nazi Germany.   

[StlVUFan]

Willingly, of course.

How can anyone take someone seriously when they believe the traffic on Christians => Muslims is willingly, and and Muslims => Christians is knife-to-the-throat?

You've not just been divorced from reality, you've had it annulled.

Excuse me???

I don't know how to respond to this.  I said: some Christians willingly convert to Islam.  I NEVER said that Muslims convert to Christianity with a knife to their throat.  Where the bleep did you get that from?

ISIS is forcing Christians to convert to Islam is what people are talking about here.  I believe I acknowledged that.  I never asserted the converse.  Not once.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I NEVER said that Muslims convert to Christianity with a knife to their throat.

I apologize, then, Stl; I thought you were because of statements like this.

It's always been the stories of violent attempts to convert Muslims that has made it's impression on me

I'm very glad that you don't think that and I wish I'd given you more of the benefit of the doubt.

And I agree that ISIS is taking it out on Muslims judged apostates far more than Christians; however, part of that would be there are so few Christians left in the first place.  There have been some simply horrific stories to come out--not just of that, but of Boko Haram--that have not received attention.  Not just because of anti-Christian posturing in the West (imagine if Christian terrorists were doing anything like this; you'd never hear of anything else from the NYT/MSNBC etc), but because the latter is Africa, which the West always ignores unless there's money to be made exploiting someone somewhere.
http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2015/02/when-africa-bleeds

And wh is right--from the earliest days, when Christians were put before the idol of the emperor and asked to deny Christ, certainly many did; but there were two schools of thought on those who didn't--they were excommunicated; the soft touches insisted on intense and very public penance.  To demand anything less is to greatly diminish the sacrifices of the martyrs who didn't flinch.

Valpofan, I'm very glad you posted.  I wonder if you read The Atlantic story on ISIS, and if so, what your thoughts were?  One can't say "Islam is all ISIS"--any more than you can say "Islam is all (one's particular sect/version here)":  because Islam is so varied (far beyond the simple Shiite/Sunni distinction which, how many Americans even know *that*?).  It is both an advantage (cf. in moments like these) and a disadvantage (in lack of unity).

In that, Islam has always had a good deal in common with Protestantism--the lack of any coherent central authority, plus a single divine text with as many ways to read it as there are readers--it'd be like saying "All Protestants are Westboro Baptists" or "All Protestants are The Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism".

[ValpoFan]

That is incorrect. For a Christian to deny their faith in Jesus Christ in the face of death is a cowardly act.  Matthew 10:32-33 of the New Testament of the Bible says, "Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven."  The 21 Coptic Christians who were brutally beheaded at the hands of ISIS henchmen, as one example, are heroes who were martyred for their faith in Jesus Christ by evildoers of God's greatest enemy, Satan. Today, they are rejoicing in heaven and I am rejoicing for them. As to ISIS killing more Muslims than Christians or Jews, this is only the beginning by their own admission.  It's nothing more than an early plot point on a murderous, apocalyptic rampage. If they have their way, they will conquer the Middle East, adjacent areas of Africa, then Europe and the United States - and of course destroy Israel.  This is in the opinion of many, myself included, the biggest danger to mankind since Hitler and Nazi Germany.

WH, thank you for your clarification. The point of discussion is not whether or not an endangered person should die for their beliefs or not. All I said is that I don't understand how would someone change religion with a knife to their throat. Whether an individual decides to stand up for their beliefs and die for them or whether they decide to "temporarily" play along and say whatever will save their life. Both options do not result in any one changing religions.

As far as your second point, no argument there. ISIS is a huge threat to humanity, the whole humanity. And the whole humanity should do whatever possible to eradicate this terrorist organization. 


LAA, I have not read the article you cited. I will look it up and get back to you ASAP.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

LAA, I have not read the article you cited. I will look it up and get back to you ASAP.

Oh boy.  I'm sorry then.  (The link I posted above.)

Not because it isn't worth reading...it's just...really really long.  So please don't rush on my account!