2015-16 Pre-Season / In-Season Exempt Tournaments

[valpo84]

I absolutely remember the Georgetown trip. I was in China and watched them play in Shanghai. The Chinese team they played in Beijing were very aggressive. The game in Shanghai was a lot quieter. It was part of a Nike event and there was a youth tourney that preceded the GTown game. Kyrie Irving "coached" one of the youth teams and Dwight Howard coached the other. There was a host of other NBAers there in a small outdoor gym. Believe that was the same summer Duke played over there at the Mercedes Benz arena (was there for that) and the Valpo ladies played in China too, caught them near Hangzhou.

[a3uge]

I like the idea of a good old fashioned brawl to build team comradery. Sometimes this board is more like a think tank.

[oklahomamick]

There was a host of other NBAers there in a small outdoor gym. Believe that was the same summer Duke played over there at the Mercedes Benz arena (was there for that) and the Valpo ladies played in China too, caught them near Hangzhou.

Hangzhou is the city I studied abroad in when I was in Valpo. 

[justducky]

Legends Classic
Finals at Brooklyn: Nov. 23-24
Hosts and Semifinalists
Arizona State Sun Devils (Pac-12) (AZCentral's Doug Haller)
LSU Tigers  (SEC) (NOLA.com)
Marquette Golden Eagles (Big East) (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
1 TBA
Visitors
TBA

MGM Grand Main Event
Finals at Las Vegas: Nov. 23, 25
Clemson Tigers (ACC)
Creighton Bluejays (Big East)
Georgia Bulldogs (SEC)
UMass Minutemen (A 10)
4 - TBA

Cancun Challenge
Finals at Cancun: Nov. 24 and 25
Teams (8)
Host Teams (Inside MD Sports)
Illinois State Redbirds (MVC)
Maryland Terrapins (Big Ten)
Rhode Island Rams (A 10)
TCU Horned Frogs (Big 12)
Visiting Teams
4 TBA

I chose these exempt tournaments only to illustrate the best two strategies toward maximizing the benefits of exempt tournaments. Strategy #1 would require paying up (see opening in Legends Classic) to host, thus buying your way in to a known set of semifinal and final or consolation bracket opponents. Biggest question mark becomes who who will sign up to be our home opponent or opponents and will the probable net monetary loss be offset by gaining a stronger RPI?

Strategy #2 would require a united consistent block approach by 4 trusting, high level, shoestring budget, different conference, mid majors willing to start, renew or extend rivalries with schools of equal basketball reputation. So maybe VU would team with an Evansville or Indiana St. along with Murray St or Belmont, a CUSA Western Kentucky or maybe Ohio or Bowling Green. This 4 team alliance once formed could negotiate each year as a group of visiting teams so that much of the work for organizers could be eliminated. Since these 4 teams would always find there way to the losers bracket (even when they won on the road to a paid-up finalist), the consolation prize would be to play games against teams they would like to be playing anyway.    Thoughts?

[usc4valpo]

Alaska would be a great trip with some decent competition.


Maui classic would be fun.

[justducky]

Legends Classic
Finals at Brooklyn: Nov. 23-24
Hosts and Semifinalists
Arizona State Sun Devils (Pac-12) (AZCentral's Doug Haller)
LSU Tigers  (SEC) (NOLA.com)
Marquette Golden Eagles (Big East) (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
1 TBA
Visitors
TBA

MGM Grand Main Event
Finals at Las Vegas: Nov. 23, 25
Clemson Tigers (ACC)
Creighton Bluejays (Big East)
Georgia Bulldogs (SEC)
UMass Minutemen (A 10)
4 - TBA

Cancun Challenge
Finals at Cancun: Nov. 24 and 25
Teams (8)
Host Teams (Inside MD Sports)
Illinois State Redbirds (MVC)
Maryland Terrapins (Big Ten)
Rhode Island Rams (A 10)
TCU Horned Frogs (Big 12)
Visiting Teams
4 TBA

I chose these exempt tournaments only to illustrate the best two strategies toward maximizing the benefits of exempt tournaments. Strategy #1 would require paying up (see opening in Legends Classic) to host, thus buying your way in to a known set of semifinal and final or consolation bracket opponents. Biggest question mark becomes who who will sign up to be our home opponent or opponents and will the probable net monetary loss be offset by gaining a stronger RPI?

Strategy #2 would require a united consistent block approach by 4 trusting, high level, shoestring budget, different conference, mid majors willing to start, renew or extend rivalries with schools of equal basketball reputation. So maybe VU would team with an Evansville or Indiana St. along with Murray St or Belmont, a CUSA Western Kentucky or maybe Ohio or Bowling Green. This 4 team alliance once formed could negotiate each year as a group of visiting teams so that much of the work for organizers could be eliminated. Since these 4 teams would always find there way to the losers bracket (even when they won on the road to a paid-up finalist), the consolation prize would be to play games against teams they would like to be playing anyway.    Thoughts?

Hmmm, no thoughts yet? Is anybody out there listening? No matter. Just allow me to continue talking to myself while I throw out some additional variations for strategy #2.

Maybe this 4 team alliance concept (or a 3 team variation) could be employed for non exempt tournaments scheduling as well. Say the 3 teams consisting of maybe Valpo, Ohio, and Evansville came to a 3 year agreement with rotating sites where the home team would play on Friday and Sunday, and the Friday opponent would play the third team on Sat. (at home team site) while that third team would meet the home team on Sunday. Advantage to the home team with the scheduling disadvantage being that each team would get only 2 home games and that happening only every third year. But would the reduced travel and RPI advantage of selecting equal level mid major programs outweigh the problems? Also if you participated in 3 such alliances they could be staggered in such a way that every season could have a pair of home games.

The 4 team concept would be much like our Nashville appearance only with rotating host teams meaning only getting 3 home games out of a 4 year agreement. A variation of this could consist of a true 2 day, 2 game tournament which could be seeded to the advantage of the highest RPI team just prior to the event. There are pluses and minuses here as well.

Help me out with a little feedback. With top echelon programs less and less willing to ever give mid majors anything close to a fair shake, it is obvious that what worked in the past is much less likely to work in the future. I believe that it has become necessary to totally reinvent the wheel and any delays in development could be catastrophic. So you folks are supposed to be smart (I guess  ) so why don't you just jump in here and start winging it just like I did?

HELLO HELLO  Can anybody hear me???

[LaPorteAveApostle]

i dunno man.  i kind of thought i understood strategy 2, but i don't get anything of this latest one.

perhaps i need another red stripe before bed.

[talksalot]

I'm hoping for an inter-conference challenge of some sort... I'm a bit worried about how those things are seeded?   Anyone know how the BIG-ACC or similar pairings are figured out?   If we're going to go against OVC schools... I want us to have the Murrays not the Tennessee State.... or the MVC, I want UNI or Wichita... not Drake again.

[historyman]

I'm hoping for an inter-conference challenge of some sort... I'm a bit worried about how those things are seeded?   Anyone know how the BIG-ACC or similar pairings are figured out?   If we're going to go against OVC schools... I want us to have the Murrays not the Tennessee State.... or the MVC, I want UNI or Wichita... not Drake again.

In general the teams of the B1G-ACC challenge are ranked from best to worst based on their record from the previous season. 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3....etc. In a few instances teams are switched around to make for better match-ups by the conference commissioners.

[wh]

I'm hoping for an inter-conference challenge of some sort... I'm a bit worried about how those things are seeded?   Anyone know how the BIG-ACC or similar pairings are figured out?   If we're going to go against OVC schools... I want us to have the Murrays not the Tennessee State.... or the MVC, I want UNI or Wichita... not Drake again.

I would hope we would never do a challenge with th OVC. They only have 2 teams that are worth playing - Murray State and Belmont - and I'm not even sure about them after our 35 point win over Murray and WSU's 2 wins over Belmont. They always have good records but they also greatly benefit from the tallest midget syndrome.

[valpo84]

We need to schedule for ourselves. Conference challenges unless with the top 5-6 are not worth it, and the bracketbuster ran out of steam. Justducky throws out some good idea starters. A round-robin tourney has some merit, but need to think bigger -- the perceived top mid-majors need to be consistent. There are a handful over time that have established consistently good programs -- Wichita State, UNI, Davidson, Richmond, Murray, VCU and Belmont. Other programs may peak every 4-8 years based on a particular recruiting class. Many of the other mid-majors become very dependent on coaches and when that person leaves...poof. These types of mid-majors need to recognize and agree to home&homes and mini-tourneys, but remember that they also feel that they need to be 22-4 at this stage of the season to be discussed for at larges. I'll let the stat guys run the numbers, but if we had played Davidson and Murray this year (omit lowest non-conf RPI team) what would our RPI be? Does it move the needle? Does it move the needle if we split or go 2-2 vs these types of teams? Does it help them if they have a loss to us? Murray is a good test case. Replace one of their wins against lowest RPI non-conf with a win against Davidson. How's it help? Remember that the games that would help our RPI (like those helping Butler) aren't going to get scheduled except for the big tourneys. The middle of the power conferences don't want a piece of us at home or the road. Have you looked at Ohio State's or ND's non-conf schedules -- multitude of home games to pay for their programs/arenas and a Challenge game and maybe 1 oe 2 TV games. ND doesn't want us anywhere near the Joyce. Heck, there used to be a quote about Digger being unable to find any roads direct between SBend and WLafayette.

[valpo4life]

Wouldn't it be cool if the NCAA tournament worked kind of like the Bracketbuster series where you were guaranteed a return game? But in this case, make it a 2 year home and home series between the two teams. It would give more of a reward to the "little guys" as they would be given at least one big game on their schedule for the next year seasons. You could leave it just at first round match ups, or do it for each round.

[classof2014]

I do like the idea of first round matchups having a return game at the lower seeds venue, it would give many mid-majors the opportunity for that elusive signature win against a top team.

It'll never happen, unfortunately.

[justducky]

I'm hoping for an inter-conference challenge of some sort... I'm a bit worried about how those things are seeded?   Anyone know how the BIG-ACC or similar pairings are figured out?   If we're going to go against OVC schools... I want us to have the Murrays not the Tennessee State.... or the MVC, I want UNI or Wichita... not Drake again.

In a perfect world this would be a great answer and theoretically you could schedule multiple games who are near RPI counterparts from that challenge  conference. But- and there always is that but- there are some difficult to resolve problems. The number of league members is the biggest, with stability and conference strength being right behind. As Talksalot said seeding for each season would be not only necessary, it would be the most beneficial part of the program. Maybe that could be done with some kind of final minute formula which gives at-large or near at-large programs a chance for a higher SOS rating and some very good wins (or close non destructive losses).

This is worthy of further thought but an easily workable partner to implement it with has yet to cross my mind.

[vu72]

I'm hoping for an inter-conference challenge of some sort... I'm a bit worried about how those things are seeded?   Anyone know how the BIG-ACC or similar pairings are figured out?   If we're going to go against OVC schools... I want us to have the Murrays not the Tennessee State.... or the MVC, I want UNI or Wichita... not Drake again.

In a perfect world this would be a great answer and theoretically you could schedule multiple games who are near RPI counterparts from that challenge  conference. But- and there always is that but- there are some difficult to resolve problems. The number of league members is the biggest, with stability and conference strength being right behind. As Talksalot said seeding for each season would be not only necessary, it would be the most beneficial part of the program. Maybe that could be done with some kind of final minute formula which gives at-large or near at-large programs a chance for a higher SOS rating and some very good wins (or close non destructive losses).

This is worthy of further thought but an easily workable partner to implement it with has yet to cross my mind.

I think it was the coach at CSU who mentioned a possible deal with the West Coast Conference.  At the moment they have 10 members and we have 9.  There seems to be some movement toward adding a new member so hopefully by next pre-season we have 10 as well.  In looking at the Sagarin's, it is difficult to find a conference that matches up perfectly with us.  Either a conference like the West Coast is way stronger at the top or a conference like The Mid-American, which is weaker at the top but stronger at the bottom.

[classof2014]

The MAC is the closest in terms of talent/skill as the HL. Some years the HL is stronger and vice-versa. This year its the HL but the MAC is deeper and doesn't have the cellar dwellers the HL does.

Games against Akron, Kent St, Bowling Green, Central Michigan, and Toledo are all good teams. Some years they are rather strong, some years are rebuilding. It'll be impossible to find an identical conference to the HL. The closest relatives are the MAC and MVC, the MVC is stronger than the HL but not considerably, they are a two bid league this season but offer good competition for HL teams, while the MAC is slightly weaker than the HL.

Geographically and talent wise it makes the most sense to play these two conferences the most in the OOC, coupled with the two or three games against power/BCS conference programs.

[talksalot]

Here's a sample of some teams... and the last time we played them...couple of surprises here.  I only grabbed teams that we have not played for at least 10 seasons.

Air Force 93-94
Army 96-97
Belmont 02-03
Bradley 83-84
Central Michigan 03-04
Eastern Illinois 95-96
Harvard - 70-71
Illinois State 80-81
Indiana State 04-05
Navy 77-78
Northern Iowa 04-05
Southern Illinois  80-81

Dayton 1920-21

Western Kentucky - NEVER
Wichita State - NEVER
Robert Morris (PA) - NEVER
Bucknell - NEVER
Davidson - NEVER
Yale - NEVER
Princeton - NEVER
Penn - NEVER
Cornell - NEVER

[Kyle321n]

Air Force 93-94
Army 96-97
Belmont 02-03
Bradley 83-84
Central Michigan 03-04
Eastern Illinois 95-96
Harvard - 70-71
Illinois State 80-81
Indiana State 04-05
Navy 77-78
Northern Iowa 04-05
Southern Illinois  80-81

Dayton 1920-21

You just put together a really nice 13 game non-con schedule for us. Bryce and ML let's get these games scheduled for next year and get an RPI in the 20 or 30s.

[a3uge]

Mid major conference challenges aren't going to happen. There's simply nothing that's stopping these teams from scheduling each other as it is. A conference challenge would probably mean having a set date which would restrict the limited number of chances HL teams have to get a good home date, or it may restrict a road tournament because they have to play one game at one location on a set date. I just don't see it happening.

Furthermore, the volatility of these leagues doesn't even set up a decent matchup half the time. Ohio was in the Elite 8 a couple years ago and now have an RPI above 200. Wright State finished 3rd in conference and lost in the Championship game and have the worst conference record (In a MVC conference challenge they would hilariously play UNI). Meanwhile, Valpo finished 6th last year and shot up to 1st. Buffalo is in first. Followed by Bowling Green. What?

[justducky]

We need to schedule for ourselves. Conference challenges unless with the top 5-6 are not worth it,

Yes and they can not be fluid. In any enduring association of teams every member has to know far ahead of time how many games are involved as well as their dates and their home vs road vs neutral site proportions. Every additional unknown that gets thrown into the mix lessens the chance for a workable and sustainable solution. Simple is good.

A round-robin tourney has some merit, but need to think bigger -- the perceived top mid-majors need to be consistent. There are a handful over time that have established consistently good programs -- Wichita State, UNI, Davidson, Richmond, Murray, VCU and Belmont. Other programs may peak every 4-8 years based on a particular recruiting class. Many of the other mid-majors become very dependent on coaches and when that person leaves...poof. These types of mid-majors need to recognize and agree to home&homes and mini-tourneys, but remember that they also feel that they need to be 22-4 at this stage of the season to be discussed for at larges.

If you have a quality team with a quality OOC schedule 5, 6, or even 7 losses might get you in. Close losses to great teams aren't devastating and big wins are enormous.

ND doesn't want us anywhere near the Joyce. Heck, there used to be a quote about Digger being unable to find any roads direct between SBend and WLafayette.

Exploit it! Repeating my formula- we should initiate contact, endure the cold shoulders then wham send them the no cost contract (for almost any weeknight) which says we will even pay for our bus parking and locker room rental (if we shower maybe we should pay extra). If they actually take it then we got ourselves a game and to save embarrassment I think they would pay us. If they politely or impolitely tell us to just go away then run adds in all our local papers showing the rejected contract and captioned        ND WILL NOT PLAY  COME TO THE ARC TO FIND OUT WHY!!!

[FWalum]

Exploit it! Repeating my formula- we should initiate contact, endure the cold shoulders then wham send them the no cost contract (for almost any weeknight) which says we will even pay for our bus parking and locker room rental (if we shower maybe we should pay extra). If they actually take it then we got ourselves a game and to save embarrassment I think they would pay us. If they politely or impolitely tell us to just go away then run adds in all our local papers showing the rejected contract and captioned        ND WILL NOT PLAY  COME TO THE ARC TO FIND OUT WHY!!!

I am trying to figure out if you are being sarcastic or not? You do realize that trying to do scheduling by shaming another school into a contract would make us the pariah of D1 basketball don't you?

[justducky]

You do realize that trying to do scheduling by shaming another school into a contract would make us the pariah of D1 basketball don't you?

Yup -but only among the haves who already offer us nothing (in mens basketball) but arrogant indifference. We could overnight become the hero of the mid major world who are all waiting for somebody to have the guts to say that "enough is enough". Is it slanderous to tell the public the truth? Bad blood sells tickets. Lets go out and pick us a fight. Northwest Indiana would love it.

[FWalum]

You do realize that trying to do scheduling by shaming another school into a contract would make us the pariah of D1 basketball don't you?

Yup -but only among the haves who already offer us nothing (in mens basketball) but arrogant indifference. We could overnight become the hero of the mid major world who are all waiting for somebody to have the guts to say that "enough is enough". Is it slanderous to tell the public the truth? Bad blood sells tickets. Lets go out and pick us a fight. Northwest Indiana would love it.

Now I know that you are just being silly.  If you think we would only be offending your "haves" then you don't know much about the "Coaching Fraternity". NWI would really love us playing Chicago State and some NAIA teams 14 times in the OOC schedule. (Of course I am also being silly.)

[StlVUFan]

You do realize that trying to do scheduling by shaming another school into a contract would make us the pariah of D1 basketball don't you?

Yup -but only among the haves who already offer us nothing (in mens basketball) but arrogant indifference. We could overnight become the hero of the mid major world who are all waiting for somebody to have the guts to say that "enough is enough". Is it slanderous to tell the public the truth? Bad blood sells tickets. Lets go out and pick us a fight. Northwest Indiana would love it.

This is quite possibly the most intelligent mid-major scheduling tactic I've ever heard.  I'm not sure what that says about me or justducky, but without any deep thinking on it, something in my really likes the idea.

[FWalum]

You do realize that trying to do scheduling by shaming another school into a contract would make us the pariah of D1 basketball don't you?

Yup -but only among the haves who already offer us nothing (in mens basketball) but arrogant indifference. We could overnight become the hero of the mid major world who are all waiting for somebody to have the guts to say that "enough is enough". Is it slanderous to tell the public the truth? Bad blood sells tickets. Lets go out and pick us a fight. Northwest Indiana would love it.

This is quite possibly the most intelligent mid-major scheduling tactic I've ever heard.  I'm not sure what that says about me or justducky, but without any deep thinking on it, something in my really likes the idea.

Believe me when I say it hasn't been done because it wouldn't work. This is a fraternity of brothers and a rather small one at that.  You don't want to start threatening people.