Conference

[Lurking Dog]

Drake fan here.  After last night, I'm reduced to making posts like this. 

Anyway- I'd like to read your opinions on this as they relate to Valpo.

[classof2014]

I don't see this happening it would be nice to have an all private "Midwest" conference, it's just a lot of energy to start up a new conference, everyone needs to be on board with the idea.

However, I would like to see us play Drake every year in Valpo and Des Moines. I do hope Valpo goes into the MVC and play Drake every year. It'd be good for both schools since both are similarly sized private schools with non-scholarship football programs in the Pioneer League.

It would also be nice to play Drake every season since the campus is about 10 minutes from my house...

[oklahomamick]

I've stated on here before that I would like to be grouped with similar universities.  Several people on the forum did not agree with me and did not see the correlation between a conference and like-minded universities. 

[agibson]

Drake fan here.  After last night, I'm reduced to making posts like this. 

Were you counting Belmont as 1st place in the OVC?

[oklahomamick]

Our current conference consist of large commuter state schools with huge alumni base.  They graduate many times more than Valpo each year but still struggle to have a solid following. 

[a3uge]

Drake fan here.  After last night, I'm reduced to making posts like this. 

Anyway- I'd like to read your opinions on this as they relate to Valpo.

Watched the second half of that Drake Bradley game last night and was pulling for you guys. What a brutal game. I think there was about 3 total points scored after the last media timeout. Overtime wasn't much better, most the points scored were free throws. The game winner was 2 free throws with 2.5 seconds left after a foul on a pass (terrible call). Drake had a chance to win with a 3 at the end, but they inbounded it to their big man and he immediately tried a one-armed heave from 3/4 length instead of passing or trying to take a couple dribbles to get a bit closer. All I could do was chuckle.

Anyways, I'm sure Bradley, Drake, Evansville, and non-WSU/UNI fans probably feel a bit hopeless right now. In the Horizon a 3, 4, 5 seed can win the tournament because the separation between teams is relatively low. The MVC's 3, 4, 5 seeds? Good luck.

But as for spending, Drakes actually 3rd in MVC spending and Bradley is 2nd. Indiana State is the 2nd lowest, but has had some decent success. So I'd be careful directly tying athletic spending to success in the HL and MVC. Drake's 2013 budget was $500,000 more than Valpo's, but I think we're programs heading in two different directions (no offense meant). High spending doesn't seem to be related to being a private or public school. Detroit has the highest budget in our conference, while YSU has the lowest. For years people on this board have argued that we need to be in a conference with more private schools. I just haven't read a good argument as to why yet.

[IndyValpo]

 Drake
Bradley
Evansville
Loyola
Valparaiso
Detroit
Belmont
Lipscomb

If I am Valpo and it is an option, I would jump on it. I would probably add Oral Roberts to the mix. I think we would need them and perhaps Dallas Baptist for baseball.

[a3uge]

Drake
Bradley
Evansville
Loyola
Valparaiso
Detroit
Belmont
Lipscomb

If I am Valpo and it is an option, I would jump on it. I would probably add Oral Roberts to the mix. I think we would need them and perhaps Dallas Baptist for baseball.

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

UWM, CSU, WSU, and UWGB all have a certain ceiling, but with success their budgets would increase and fans would pay attention. Just like any private school.

[IndyValpo]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

[a3uge]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

So when you look at Oral Roberts you think of large commuter schools like IUPUI because they belong to the same athletics conference?

Its an athletics conference, not an academic decathlon conference.

[VU75]

Is there still talk of the MVC upgrading to FBS for football?  If so it would make sense for Youngstown, and the Dakota schools to join for all sports, and Evansville, Drake and Bradley to come over to the Horizon.

[a3uge]

Is there still talk of the MVC upgrading to FBS for football?

No.

[wh]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no hidden agenda here.  Like a3uge, I have never understood the value of an athletic conference of private-only schools. I can understand a conference where every school is the same religion like the "new" Big East (minus Butler).  I can understand a D-3 conference of all Protestant schools like the one Goshen and Bethel are in where they share similar missions and value systems, and where they might want to intertwine religion with their athletic programs. For example, maybe they all agree to have a corporate prayer before/after athletic events, or have no athletic events on Sunday, or whatever.  Those are tangible things I can understand. 

If there are those kinds of tangible benefits to forming a conference from a hodgepodge of private schools without any religious affiliation, would someone kindly list 4 or 5 so I can understand where you're coming from?

[IndyValpo]

To me it just a personal preference. I would rather play Drake, Bradley, Evansville. etc. over UIC, Cleveland State.  No big mystery, I also think it would be a better conference.

[78crusader]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no hidden agenda here.  Like a3uge, I have never understood the value of an athletic conference of private-only schools. I can understand a conference where every school is the same religion like the "new" Big East (minus Butler).  I can understand a D-3 conference of all Protestant schools like the one Goshen and Bethel are in where they share similar missions and value systems, and where they might want to intertwine religion with their athletic programs. For example, maybe they all agree to have a corporate prayer before/after athletic events, or have no athletic events on Sunday, or whatever.  Those are tangible things I can understand. 

If there are those kinds of tangible benefits to forming a conference from a hodgepodge of private schools without any religious affiliation, would someone kindly list 4 or 5 so I can understand where you're coming from?

Reasons 1-5: Prestige.

VU, Drake, Bradley, Butler, Evansville, Xavier, Creighton, etc -- all better academic schools than Cleveland State, Ball State, UWGB, etc.  Better academically by a wide margin.  I would think you want to affiliate as much as possible with like-minded, similar schools.  It's why the Big 10 members are all research institutions.  And it's why VU, in a perfect world, should be playing Drake, Butler, Evansville, etc. rather than, for example, Youngstown State or Wright State. 

And at least there is some history behind playing other private schools.  One year we played Southern Utah for the Mid-Con tourney title and the ESPN guy mocked the game by referreing to VU and SUU as "ancient rivals."  There is something to be said for playing schools that are academically and geographically close to you.



Paul

[a3uge]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no hidden agenda here.  Like a3uge, I have never understood the value of an athletic conference of private-only schools. I can understand a conference where every school is the same religion like the "new" Big East (minus Butler).  I can understand a D-3 conference of all Protestant schools like the one Goshen and Bethel are in where they share similar missions and value systems, and where they might want to intertwine religion with their athletic programs. For example, maybe they all agree to have a corporate prayer before/after athletic events, or have no athletic events on Sunday, or whatever.  Those are tangible things I can understand. 

If there are those kinds of tangible benefits to forming a conference from a hodgepodge of private schools without any religious affiliation, would someone kindly list 4 or 5 so I can understand where you're coming from?

Reasons 1-5: Prestige.

VU, Drake, Bradley, Butler, Evansville, Xavier, Creighton, etc -- all better academic schools than Cleveland State, Ball State, UWGB, etc.  Better academically by a wide margin.  I would think you want to affiliate as much as possible with like-minded, similar schools.  It's why the Big 10 members are all research institutions.  And it's why VU, in a perfect world, should be playing Drake, Butler, Evansville, etc. rather than, for example, Youngstown State or Wright State. 

And at least there is some history behind playing other private schools.  One year we played Southern Utah for the Mid-Con tourney title and the ESPN guy mocked the game by referreing to VU and SUU as "ancient rivals."  There is something to be said for playing schools that are academically and geographically close to you.



Paul

Prestige? To who? So my mom will think Valpo is more prestigious because we play basketball against Bradley instead of Wright State? My friend will think I went to a better school because Evansville vs Valparaiso showed up on the CBS Sports Network? I mean how many people that went to Valpo even know what athletics conference we play in? I best most alumni can't even name more than a handful of teams we play. Playing Bradley, Drake, Evansville won't increase our academic image, but playing Wichita State and UNI would increase our athletics image. We should make athletic decisions based on athletics. Anyways, this proposal is silly and unreasonable. Nothing like this is going to happen.

Per that last point, the Horizon League is the most geographically compact we're ever going to get.

[a3uge]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no hidden agenda here.  Like a3uge, I have never understood the value of an athletic conference of private-only schools. I can understand a conference where every school is the same religion like the "new" Big East (minus Butler).  I can understand a D-3 conference of all Protestant schools like the one Goshen and Bethel are in where they share similar missions and value systems, and where they might want to intertwine religion with their athletic programs. For example, maybe they all agree to have a corporate prayer before/after athletic events, or have no athletic events on Sunday, or whatever.  Those are tangible things I can understand. 

If there are those kinds of tangible benefits to forming a conference from a hodgepodge of private schools without any religious affiliation, would someone kindly list 4 or 5 so I can understand where you're coming from?

Reasons 1-5: Prestige.

VU, Drake, Bradley, Butler, Evansville, Xavier, Creighton, etc -- all better academic schools than Cleveland State, Ball State, UWGB, etc.  Better academically by a wide margin.  I would think you want to affiliate as much as possible with like-minded, similar schools.  It's why the Big 10 members are all research institutions.  And it's why VU, in a perfect world, should be playing Drake, Butler, Evansville, etc. rather than, for example, Youngstown State or Wright State. 

And at least there is some history behind playing other private schools.  One year we played Southern Utah for the Mid-Con tourney title and the ESPN guy mocked the game by referreing to VU and SUU as "ancient rivals."  There is something to be said for playing schools that are academically and geographically close to you.



Paul

Prestige? To who? So my mom will think Valpo is more prestigious because we play basketball against Bradley instead of Wright State? My friend will think I went to a better school because Evansville vs Valparaiso showed up on the CBS Sports Network? I mean how many people that went to Valpo even know what athletics conference we play in? I best most alumni can't even name more than a handful of teams we play. Playing Bradley, Drake, Evansville won't increase our academic image, but playing Wichita State and UNI would increase our athletics image. We should make athletic decisions based on athletics. Anyways, this proposal is silly and unreasonable. Nothing like this is going to happen.

Per that last point, the Horizon League is the most geographically compact we're ever going to get.

[VULB#62]

This would be a downgrade. I really don't understand the infatuation with being in an athletic conference of all private schools. We're in a conference with a bunch of commuter schools. So what? Its not like people are attending Drake and Bradley over Valpo because their athletic conference has more private schools. Nobody associates a school's academics with their mid major athletics conference.

I have never understood those who don't.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I have absolutely no hidden agenda here.  Like a3uge, I have never understood the value of an athletic conference of private-only schools. I can understand a conference where every school is the same religion like the "new" Big East (minus Butler).  I can understand a D-3 conference of all Protestant schools like the one Goshen and Bethel are in where they share similar missions and value systems, and where they might want to intertwine religion with their athletic programs. For example, maybe they all agree to have a corporate prayer before/after athletic events, or have no athletic events on Sunday, or whatever.  Those are tangible things I can understand. 

If there are those kinds of tangible benefits to forming a conference from a hodgepodge of private schools without any religious affiliation, would someone kindly list 4 or 5 so I can understand where you're coming from?

Reasons 1-5: Prestige.

VU, Drake, Bradley, Butler, Evansville, Xavier, Creighton, etc -- all better academic schools than Cleveland State, Ball State, UWGB, etc.  Better academically by a wide margin.  I would think you want to affiliate as much as possible with like-minded, similar schools.  It's why the Big 10 members are all research institutions.  And it's why VU, in a perfect world, should be playing Drake, Butler, Evansville, etc. rather than, for example, Youngstown State or Wright State. 

And at least there is some history behind playing other private schools.  One year we played Southern Utah for the Mid-Con tourney title and the ESPN guy mocked the game by referreing to VU and SUU as "ancient rivals."  There is something to be said for playing schools that are academically and geographically close to you.

Paul

IMO seeing a private school like Valpo on the ESPN scoreboard crawler against any "State University" other than those in the power conferences does not have the same recognition factor athletically, academically or promotionally as when we would show up on the crawler against the privates mentioned above.  These, largely, again IMO, are better recognized by people nationally than the likes of NW Kentucky State at Paduka, Arkansas State U - Pine Bluff, Wright State U (made up the first one to emphasize that there are so many nondescript State U's out there that few can keep track of them.)  There is a measure of distinction being tied to the older private national university names -- especially those with good athletic traditions and reputations.  Aren't the  Patriot League and the Ivy league east coast versions of what we are generally discussing here for the midwest.  They get some good recognition.

[Lurking Dog]

Aren't the Patriot League and the Ivy league east coast versions of what we are generally discussing here for the midwest.  They get some good recognition.

Although I would not compare these eight schools to the Ancient Eight, academic reputation would certainly be a plus.  You are judged by the company you keep, and D-I athletics provides a lot of the exposure our schools receive.

[78crusader]

a3uge raises good points, as usual.  So does VULB#62. 

My wife and I were out to dinner with friends one night.  Our friends know we went to VU.  They asked what conference we were in.  (They are all sports fans to some degree, they just didn't know what our conference was -- not surprising, probably a bunch of people in Indiana couldn't name the conference Northern Iowa is in.)  I told them, and mentioned the schools in our league -- including, for instance, Wright State and Youngstown State.  When I mentioned those places, there were blank stares around the table.  I thought to myself, I would have liked to mention Butler and Loyola of Chicago rather than WSU and YSU.  It would have sounded better.  I'm probably the only person on this board who feels that way.  But it's maybe the best way I can explain what I mean by "prestige" as being the most important reason why we should be in a league with similarly-situated private schools.  As someone else mentioned, you are judged -- athletically and, perhaps to some degree, academically -- by the company you keep.

I fear if the Horizon invites in someone like Northern Kentucky, we will back in the Mid-Con boat, which served as well for a time, but let's face it, at the end was not a particularly well-thought of conference and didn't do much to further the VU brand.

Paul

[classof2014]

The MVC keeps making more sense. They have a decent number of privates: Drake, Bradley, Loyola, and Evansville. Could they perhaps bring in two privates? Valpo and someone else, Detroit, Oral Roberts, not sure who but I think Detroit and ORU would be good choices.

Make a two division conference, the Private division and the state division. You have a home at home with teams in your division and play a team from the other division once a year and switch off home games. There'd be 16 conference games. Or expand to 14 teams, 7 and 7 and have 19 games. I don't think it'd be difficult to find another good state school.

I'm hoping the HL picks up Belmont, get another private in the league. Right now, other than Valpo and Detroit, all the other schools are commuter schools that we have little in common with, in terms of academics. 

[Valpofan00]

I will never understand why a lot of you think it matters if we play private schools in the conference or if there arent enough private schools etc. basketball is basketball who cares if they're private or not.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

If it were just about basketball, then sure.  But it isn't "just about basketball". (...if it were we'd certainly boot YSU like ca. 2004)

It's not enough to have a really nice house; the neighborhood in which it is located also says a great deal about the house too, does it not?

[VULB#62]

If it were just about basketball, then sure.  But it isn't "just about basketball". (...if it were we'd certainly boot YSU like ca. 2004)

It's not enough to have a really nice house; the neighborhood in which it is located also says a great deal about the house too, does it not?

Well put LAA.

[crusaderjoe]

Drake fan here.  After last night, I'm reduced to making posts like this. 

Anyway- I'd like to read your opinions on this as they relate to Valpo.

Here's what I think.  In order for this to happen, you'd have to see simultaneous movement from members of five conferences:  MVC, OVC, Summit (if you include ORU in this analysis), Atlantic Sun, and the Horizon. 

Then, there is the issue of the payouts of tournament shares.  Have the shares been paid out as a result of Wichita and Butler's final four runs? If not, you'd most likely forfeit those monies if you leave your current conference.

Then, there's the potential issue of exit fees.

Then, the new conference would have to apply to the NCAA so that it could receive an automatic birth to the NCAA tournament.  I have no idea, but for basketball that process I am guessing would take about a year, right?  (When the Mid Con reformed in 1995 there was no NCAA bid for at least one year.)  So that means you are joining a conference with no immediate access to the NCAA tournament initially.

With WAC football dead, the aforementioned conference will never happen, so we will never have to worry about any of this.