2013 vs. 2015

[Pgmado]

Alright, let's have some fun. Who wins in a game between the 2012-13 Crusaders and the 2014-15 Crusaders. Vashil Fernandez is the only link between the two and he played a total of one minute in the 2013 Horizon League tournament.

Buggs vs. Carter

Bogan/Kenney vs. Walkers

Broekhoff vs. Peters

Van Wijk vs. Fernandez

Boggs/Dority/Coleman/Capobianco vs. Skara/Adekoya/Nickerson/Joseph

Where, if at all, does the current team have a personnel advantage? Which team is tougher? Which team wins? How much would you pay to see this game happen?

Go.

[valpopal]

Alright, let's have some fun. Who wins in a game between the 2012-13 Crusaders and the 2014-15 Crusaders. Vashil Fernandez is the only link between the two and he played a total of one minute in the 2013 Horizon League tournament.

Buggs vs. Carter

Bogan/Kenney vs. Walkers

Broekhoff vs. Peters

Van Wijk vs. Fernandez

Boggs/Dority/Coleman/Capobianco vs. Skara/Adekoya/Nickerson/Joseph

Where, if at all, does the current team have a personnel advantage? Which team is tougher? Which team wins? How much would you pay to see this game happen?

Go.

[Valpofan00]

2014-2015 wins. I'd pay $100.

[vu72]

I posted this on another thread yesterday:

I think this team is a fair amount better then our 12-13 team.  Let's call Rowdy and Alec a push.  Kevin would have a hard time not getting stuffed by this year's version of Vashil.  Let's also call Keith and Erik Buggs a push. I'd take Adekoye over Bobby C.  Then it's Boggs, Kenney, Dority and Bogan versus T. Walker, D. Walker, E. Victor and Max Joseph.  Oh yeah, I'll take David Skara over Jordan Coleman as well. This year's guards are faster, stronger and more athletic. (other then Erik Buggs!)

[elephtheria47]

2013 played smarter but 2015 is more talented and a more well rounded team.

[classof2014]

The 2015 is far more talented than the 2013 team. The 2013 couldn't win how the 15 team does by just being more physical, they were a finesse team and needed to hit shots in order to win, when the shots fell they looked really good but when they didn't they could lose to about anybody.

The 2013 team to me resembles more of a typical mid-major team, one star player and everyone plays well together, although they turned it over a ton. Rowdy I think is the best player between the two teams, I give senior Rowdy the edge over sophomore Alec. I think next year's version of Alec will be better than senior version of Rowdy.

What separates the 2015 Crusaders from the 2013 Crusaders is athleticism. This may be the most athletic team Valpo has had, ever. This team has a better shot at a run than the 13 team did, I think they can definitely win a few games and make some noise. They have the athleticism to compete with the power teams, can shoot from outside, and can play shutdown defense.

Don't get me wrong, the 2013 Crusaders were one of the best Valpo teams. They got us back to the NCAAs for the first time in 9 seasons and became the stepping stone for the team we have today. Without Rowdy, KVW, EB, Kenney, etc... there is no dancing this season.

[a3uge]

Great hypothetical, but difficult choice. That 2011-12 team was the 4th best shooting team in the country, and were in a more difficult conference. But this 2014-15 team plays much better defense and rebounds better. The eye test seems to be 2011, but the stats say 2014.

As far as a matchup goes - I think our physical defense would give the 2011 team fits. Wait, is this game at home or on a neutral court (which would be at home right?)

Hopefully this discussion will be meaningless in a few weeks when we make the Sweet 16 :p

[Kyle321n]

I'm guessing we're assuming both teams are 100% healthy (sans Lexus since we played this season without him entirely)

Looking at the styles of the two teams, they are quite different. 2013 pushed the tempo quite a bit more and averaged 3 more possessions per game than the 2015 squad.  2013 also shot the ball better with a 55% eFG% vs 51.4% for 2015. A strength of this year's team, limiting inside scoring, is quickly eliminated by the 2013's relying on the 3 to score. Neither team forced a lot of turnovers, but 2013 was a bit more sloppy with the ball.

Everyone would want to see Rowdy vs. Alec straight up, but we've all seen how Bryce protects his best offensive player from tough defensive assignments. In reality what we'd get is Alec vs. Kenny and Rowdy vs. Darien. Personally I think Alec eats Kenny's lunch and Darien does a solid job defensively against Rowdy. The main attraction would be KVW/Bobby vs. Vashil/Jubril. I think Bobby would actually have the biggest advantage of these 4 and he would have one of his better games. Vashil struggled a little against true bigs who were able to step out and hit a shot or two (see JJ Penoske). I think we'd get a few instances of #No3sBobby.

Guard play is tough for me judge. Tevonn hasn't shown any signs of immaturity and really looked like a junior out there. Keith really seems to cause this offense to gel and when he's out on the court with EVictor, they seems to really mesh together well.

On the other side Buggs was a fantastic distributor and, like Keith, caused the offense to really click. He was also able to handle any defensive assignment. Would EVic give him fits though? Oh definitely, but I think Buggs' speed would cause Bryce to match Keith against him. And could Will handle Tevonn defensively? I mean Tevonn would have 0 trouble defending Will, but watching Will try to defend Tevonn? That's trouble for 2013.

Key bench roles. Skara and Boggs filled two totally different roles. Skara can drive to the lane unlike anyone else on 2013's team while Boggs was a master at getting open for a quick jumper. They would be fun to watch go against each other head to head, and you probably would see it quite a bit.

2013	Advantage	2015
	Starting Guards
Buggs	«	Carter
Bogan	»»	T. Walker
	Front Court
Broekhoff	=	D. Walker
Kenny	»»	Peters
Van Wijk	=	Fernandez
	Bench
Boggs	=	Skara
Capobianco	«	Adekoya
Coleman	»	Nickerson
Dority	«	Joseph

Personally I think it's a great game and if 2013 is hitting their threes it could be trouble, but played 10 times I think 2015 wins 7 of those. TWalker and Alec are just too much for 2013 to try to defend and if they switch Buggs and Bogan then I think Carter has himself a game. The best line up 2013 could put out there to defend 2015 would be Buggs (TWalker)-Dority (Carter)-Broekhoff (DWalker)-Van Wijk (Peters)-Capobianco (Vashil), but I can't think of an instance where Bryce did that and you would be emptying out all your height on the court at once. The second unit wouldn't be able to handle Evictor-Skara-Jubril up front since they would only have Coleman with any size.

[vu84v2]

I would go with 2015, as long as Tevonn Walker is included. Peters and Broekhoff is a wash. Van Wijk over Fernandez (Van Wijk's defense is better than Vashil's offense). However, Vashil's contribution on the defensive end is enormous and is critical for any success going forward. Kenney was a nice role player and more developed than Skara is at this point. The Walkers are better than Coleman, Bogan and Boggs, though I would have them as a push with Dority (all are streaky). Carter and Buggs is probably a push, but Buggs was so good at some things and so bad at others.

Two differences between the teams that could bode better for Valpo this time in the tournament: More potential options that can potentially create shots, better overall defense

[LaPorteAveApostle]

I sense a Paul blogpost about that game simulator between the two teams in our future.

I think what I appreciate most in the difference between the two teams is the feel in the respective years.

2013 we were expected to win, nearly every game we played.  Those are some heavy expectations.  The way in which we won the tournament was awesome, and the feeling of returning to the Dance, whence we had been gone too long?  Wonderful, particularly since Valpo fans had come to believe a bid was almost a birthright for a decade in there.

But this year was better because it was such a surprise.  Everyone and their favorite Clinton had already set their sights on 2016.  Exceeding expectations is so much more fun than wearing the burden thereof! (a subtle warning for next year...)

[talksalot]

Who's going to officiate this game?  "the Let'em play" crew we had Tuesday? or the "Hand's off" crew we had at Oakland?  The 2013 team hit free throws.

oh... Can I be the announcer?  [so I don't have to pay the $100?] [or $95 with a $5 concession voucher]

[hailcrusaders]

I made a Strat-o-matic-like card and dice of all ten '11-'12 HL teams in my spare time a year or so ago that plays reasonably well. Since it is statistics-based, it is hard to account for every nuance of individual matchups (KVWs moves, muscle, and experience vs. Vashils length, or Tevonn's grittiness and hustle) that do not show up in the box score. But, if I ever get around to making '12-13 and '14-15 Valpo teams, I'll let you all know how a head to head matchup goes lol.

[Kyle321n]

Who's going to officiate this game?  "the Let'em play" crew we had Tuesday? or the "Hand's off" crew we had at Oakland?  The 2013 team hit free throws.

oh... Can I be the announcer?  [so I don't have to pay the $100?] [or $95 with a $5 concession voucher]

I think we're going to get either 2013 version of you or 2015 version to announce the game, depending on who the home team is.

As for the officiating I think that would only effect the 2013 team, the 2015 team has learned to adjust, as seen by Tuesday night's game where they came in playing less physical and in the second half seemed to beef up a little.

[sliman]

I'll go with 2015 because I think they rebound better an play better defense than the '13 team, especially working together on defense better than the '13 team which often was slow rotating to cover for a teammate as I recall.  At the same time, '13 probably had better outside shooters (except for Eric, of course) which would have forced the defense further from the basket than we've had to play most of this year (something that could be a factor depending upon whom we play in the tournament).  Vashil is far more effective when he's got help than if he's having to guard someone one-on-one.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Anyone else, though, think that a great deal of the difference between the two teams is due to the sloggification of college basketball since?

If they were to play under the 2013 rules, I think that year would win.  If it were called like it is these days (assuming that's vaguely consistent, of course), 2015 would win.

They were both successful despite different styles because that's the environment under which they thrived.

[nkvu]

Interesting to compare senior Rowdy to sophomore Alec. I give an edge to senior Rowdy. Rowdy is a touch quicker and a better ball handler. He could take a defensive rebound, dribble the length of the court and slam it. I don't think Alec is quite there yet. Alec is a bigger body but Rowdy had a knack for rebounding, a real nose for the ball. I'd call that a push. The one part I would give an edge to Alec is around the rim. Alec can use his left hand and Rowdy couldn't. I don't know how many times I remember Rowdy getting a step driving to his left but would then have to give up the advantage because he had to come back to his right hand at the rim. I hope he has been working on that as a pro. Again edge to Rowdy for his all around game.

Overall I think 2015 would take a 10 game series 6 games to 4 due to greater length at key positions, tougher defense, and more athleticism. But man it would be fun to watch.

[talksalot]

Noise?

how about the Valpo-B***Ler game...from 2011...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XiVuZX6f0U

[Chairback]

2013 team turned the ball over way too much for an experienced team.  I also think they never clicked as a team and didn't play up to their potential.  To me they never got better from the 1st preseason game.   The loses at home to Loyola and Detroit should not have happened.  Plus the championship game was hard to watch as I believe we had 25+ TO's in the game.

You can't compared a senior Rowdy vs a sophomore Alec.  Alec, although excellent, is still developing.  Rowdy could do it all his junior and senior years.

I say the 2014-2015 wins.  Buggs could not shoot and T Walker would take the lane away from him.  Nickerson and Skara would be hard for 2013 reserves to guard.

[usc4valpo]

14-15 team.  I think these guys can advance in the tournament, I cannot say that about the 12-13 team.

[SanityLost17]

Bryce is a much better coach in 2015.  In close games, he would out coach the 2013 version of himself. 

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Good point.  2015 Bryce would still have his jacket on when 2013 Bryce used his last TO.

[justducky]

2013 team turned the ball over way too much for an experienced team.  I also think they never clicked as a team and didn't play up to their potential.  To me they never got better from the 1st preseason game.

Pretty much true with the reasons that they never really clicked being their lack of speed on offense, slower defensive foot speed, and inexplicable turnover numbers.

You can't compared a senior Rowdy vs a sophomore Alec.  Alec, although excellent, is still developing.

True, but we can compare a sophomore Alec and a sophomore Rowdy and Alec wins this in a landslide. Anyway that 7 of 10 number for the 14-15 team sounds just about perfect.

[a3uge]

2013 team turned the ball over way too much for an experienced team.  I also think they never clicked as a team and didn't play up to their potential.  To me they never got better from the 1st preseason game.   The loses at home to Loyola and Detroit should not have happened.  Plus the championship game was hard to watch as I believe we had 25+ TO's in the game.

Well they did win us our first HL title and got us back into the tournament, but you're right - tons of potential for much more. We had a fairly decent OOC schedule with a chance for a quality win against New Mexico and SLU and it didn't happen. Dropping games to Nebraska and Oakland were disappointing, but we did have a good win at Murray State. The RPIs may have been essentially the same, but the difference seems to be the conference in 2013 was much better - 6 teams above .500 vs only 3 this year.

Pretty much true with the reasons that they never really clicked being their lack of speed on offense, slower defensive foot speed, and inexplicable turnover numbers.

You can't compared a senior Rowdy vs a sophomore Alec.  Alec, although excellent, is still developing.

True, but we can compare a sophomore Alec and a sophomore Rowdy and Alec wins this in a landslide. Anyway that 7 of 10 number for the 14-15 team sounds just about perfect.

I think we'd have to compare sophomore Alec with senior Rowdy, otherwise you could elevate LVD and and Vashil to seniors as well.

[vu72]

This year's team is just much bigger--assuming the regular playing rotations.  T Walker and W Bogan are about the same size.  Carter and Buggs are "about" the same size. Alec and Rowdy are about the same size. Vashil is bigger then Kevin. And D Walker is about the same size as Matt Kenney.  Now, on to the reserves.  Dority, Capo, Boggs and Coleman.  Versus Jabril, Skara, E Victor and Max Joseph.  Not only is this year's team bigger, it is also much more athletic and more muscular.

Also agree that Rowdy as a senior is a more complete player then Sophomore Alec, although I don't recall Rowdy ever being able to post up like Alec does.  Both are/were very good rebounders. This year's team has about an 8 rebound edge over the full year's opponents.  Doubt the 12-13 team was anywhere close to that.

[classof2014]

To me Nov. 2012 version beats Nov 2014 version but the March 15 beats March 13 team. This year's team improved much more than the 2012/13 team did. Part of that is due to there being so many young/new faces on the team and in January the team found their identity. During the last month or so they took care of the ball and really seemed to complement one another really well.

The 2013 team was much more predictable which I think it made it easier to gameplan against for opposing teams. Erik couldn't shoot from outside nor the FT line, so give him space on the perimeter and if he drives the lane be physical, KVW would post up on every offensive possession, not that it's a bad thing but like most centers/#5 forwards they aren't much of a shooter, Rowdy you knew on offense he'd either shoot the 3 or cut to the rim, he was by far the hardest to guard because of this and was by far the best player on the team, he created the most matchup problems. Will Bogan, primarily a 3 point threat didn't score much doing other things but he could shoot 3s. Matt Kenney, he was either on or off, he could get very sloppy with the ball so pressure him and he'll likely turn it over.  Our reserves couldn't shoot real well that season, LVD found his stroke senior year and was phenomenal but junior version of LVD wasn't anything special, this was also the year of #No3sBobby, and Jordan Coleman was kinda sorta there.

The 2015 version is much more athletic and much better defensively. The 13 team was one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the country. This season we were mediocre, Alec was are main threat from beyond the arc and he had an amazing year shooting near 50% from outside, he could also post up when the 3s weren't falling which created matchup nightmares offensively. Both Darien and Tevonn were able to hit enough 3s to keep the defense honest which opened up lanes to the basket. Our 2 PGs were much better shooters that Erik was, Erik I thought did a great job running the offense and defensively was I would say was about equal at PG, perhaps a slight edge to EVN.

To me what separates the two teams is the ability to get to the rim and score. Tevonn, Darien, EVN could all cut to the basket to score while still being able to hit outside shots. They weren't great shooters but good enough. Our reserves are much stronger as well. Jubril and #BobbyNo3s are similar both have a poor outside shot but if left open will take that shot, Jubril I think was a bit more reluctant to take the shot than Bobby. LVD vs KC/EVN the current duo is better than LVD. Skara is significantly better than Coleman was.

Not saying I expect to win a game or two in the tournament but this team is much more likely to. The 2013 team was much more of a stereotypical mid-major program; this team isn't. If the 3s weren't falling for the 13 team then we were in big trouble, while this year we can do it in a variety of ways. This team is much more capable of making a run in the tournament.